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Old 04-01-2013, 01:37 PM   #101
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But by stating he got it wrong, you point to a right answer, which I disagree with in terms of interpreting themes. That's how you particularly see that sequence, (and I agree with most of your reading) but stating Snyder is wrong (as if it were a case of 2+2=4) by not following that interpretation I think is a somewhat limited viewing with which to view a piece of art, especially considering a piece of art crafted by such an author as Alan Moore, who is not particularly conventional in his storytelling.

You seem to be a very smart fellow, and I very much respect your opinion. It's just that when you get to the point of saying things like "the whole point of that line is" and "the way he did it is wrong", while also saying you never indicated that there was one reading of the piece possible creates two very discordant messages. "The whole point" suggests one, i.e. a singular point to be understood, as well as "wrong" indicating a right. I don't doubt you allow for multiple interpretations, but stating one as wrong, once again, indicates that, at some juncture, there is a right way to understand, namely one right way. Using the Superman interpretations example does not change that. You may disagree with a "Nazi Ideal" interpretation of Superman, but you are not really in a place to label it "wrong".
So, I have no problem with your views on Snyder's Watchmen film (personally, I think for every place he excelled, there would be an equal sequence in which he would f*** up). But to quantitatively state that he got it wrong I think is folly.

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:29 PM   #102
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But he very clearly did not understand them. I'm sorry if that's condescending to say, but it's true. If you think moving around the "nothing ever ends" line like that works just fine, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what one of the book's key moments was all about.
This is the kind of thing I was afraid of when joining a comic book internet forum. Such incredible false sense of superiority and presumption.

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Old 05-28-2013, 08:45 PM   #103
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Default Re: The Watchmen Movie

One poster on a different forum I used to attend explained it well: the line, coming from Manhattan, was the most devastating line to hear from God, or the comic's equivalent. Hence, using the concerns of the field of communication, we see that the success of the message lies is in the sender (Manhattan/God.) But, Snyder's decision to have Laurie say it took a lot of the power of it. Instead of a forest fire, it has the intensity of slightly warm stove burner.

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Old 05-28-2013, 10:57 PM   #104
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I think dislike of this movie had to be based mostly on some of the bigger things, obviously the giant squid monster was jettisoned from the very beginning of attempting to adapt it, so I think complaints about that are really out there. I mean, the original script had Ozymandias opening a time portal to the past and trying to snipe Jon Osterman through it in the moments before he becomes Dr. Manhattan. Another version had Ozymandias using giant space lasers on a city as the doomsday weapon, Nite Owl kills him (which would have been really dumb, Watchmen is unique for having the villain supposedly get away scott free with his atrocities), and then sends to the world's leaders, instead of the clear threat Ozymandias would have made, the song lyric, "the love you take is equal to the love you make". They take this as a vaguely worded threat that if they don't try and live in peace and harmony, the unknown terrorist will use the space laser again on them.

This could have been WAY worse, people.

Now, some other people have complained about some directorial decisions. I am more sympathetic to these complaints, because there are some dumb parts in this movie. The soundtrack at times made some bad choices. Nite Owl and Silk Specter quite literally kill several people in that first street battle which I thought was a poor choice, especially since they are brought across as being "superhuman" in strength by tearing arms off and snapping necks, that kind of thing.

Finally, having Silk Specter say, "Nothing ends. Nothing ever ends" instead of Dr. Manhattan was dumb, in my opinion. I am in the camp that it is best coming from Manhattan and being said directly to Ozymandias, that it is to be interpreted by Ozymandias that he just killed six million people for nothing because you cannot stop human nature's penchant for war and destruction.

However, those are just some pretty minor nitpicks. The Director's Cut of this movie especially is pretty amazing and I think the best version of it (I didn't like the Ultimate Cut, the inclusion of the animated sequences were too jarring. I wish they had done their original vision of filming them in chroma key, that would have fit in much better).


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Old 05-28-2013, 10:58 PM   #105
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Default Re: The Watchmen Movie

I was happy they did not use the squid...I found the film' device to be better than that of the comic.

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Originally Posted by Jason Aaron
"I've known since I first took over the series that I wanted to eventually have someone else pick up the hammer," says the writer. "It's kind of a time-honored Thor tradition at this point, isn't it? Going back to the days of Beta Ray Bill."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Johns
ďAt DC, we really see film and TV as separate worlds."
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Old 06-01-2013, 03:40 AM   #106
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I want to know if anyone here thinks this is a legitimate criticism or if I missed the point...

I thought that the Watchmen movie stylised scenes which were deliberately un-stylish in the book. For example, the fight scene with muggers, and the sexual assault. In the book it felt to me the artist made a point to make those scenes un-glamorous and dull, as if saying "if the violence and sexism in some comics really happened, it would look like this, depressing not exciting"

Wheras in the movie, I felt the director shot those scenes to look cool and stylish, with slow-mo, impressive camera shots, etc, missing the effect of the book.

Almost felt like the film was a glamorous movie version of the events that was made in the books universe.

On the other hand, that method of filming was unsettling in it's own way. For example, filming Comedian from below in a classic Superhero movie pose, while he attempts sexual assault, or combining "summer blockbuster" slow-mo with brutal gore, it did make a strange effect. But the not the same point the book made. Instead of "violent fights and terrorising women does not look glamorous in real life" it became "they do look glamorous but you will feel guilty and unsettled that they do" effect.


Mind you I'm not a big fan of Synder's exaggerated visual style and I'm really hoping he reins it in for Superman.


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Old 06-01-2013, 10:11 AM   #107
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The action sequences are EASILY my biggest problem with this movie.
If it wasn't for that, I'd probably be popping it into the blu-ray player a lot more often.
I'm curious if it was always Snyder's intent to go so stylish with the action, or if WB didn't think they could sell the movie without it.

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Old 06-01-2013, 09:55 PM   #108
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Here's a question: would you consider Watchmen a cult film?

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Old 06-01-2013, 10:43 PM   #109
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I read the graphic novel before seeing the movie, and I thought the movie did a great job of translating from one media to another...you had to expect some changes like the pirate story being left out, but some things seemed to change that I thought were a little odd, however I may be wrong about it.

I don't recall Rorschach being featured in the comic WITHOUT his mask in public like he was in the movie, I think he was the guy holding the doomsday sign in the movie and I thought that wasn't how it happened in the comics. I also was disappointed they cut the prison psychiatrists story in the movie...him going home and his downward spiral.

Like I said, you have to expect SOME changes, but I was letdown by these.
After watching the film, I opened up the tp, and had an activity where I looked at all of the scenes set in public and searched for Rorschach. He was in a considerable number of them; hence, it made a fun variation of "Where's Waldo?"

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"I've known since I first took over the series that I wanted to eventually have someone else pick up the hammer," says the writer. "It's kind of a time-honored Thor tradition at this point, isn't it? Going back to the days of Beta Ray Bill."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Johns
ďAt DC, we really see film and TV as separate worlds."
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Old 06-01-2013, 10:44 PM   #110
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Here's a question: would you consider Watchmen a cult film?
Not really.

1.[ Never mind; I just thought of a counter example.]

The two I'll stick with, until further revision:

2. It had a standard theatrical release
3. It did not bad at the box office.

Those three make up the definition I use for cult films.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Aaron
"I've known since I first took over the series that I wanted to eventually have someone else pick up the hammer," says the writer. "It's kind of a time-honored Thor tradition at this point, isn't it? Going back to the days of Beta Ray Bill."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Johns
ďAt DC, we really see film and TV as separate worlds."
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Old 06-15-2013, 03:58 PM   #111
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Watchmen, theatrical, director's and extended cuts, have always been in my top five favorite CBMs of all time. I honestly don't understand why it isn't quite popular to anyone outside of the comic book fanbase and what not because it's such a great film, imo.

The only change I'd have had, though, is I'd take out the so-awkward sex scene.
I haven't watched it in a couple years and just watched it again after it was brought up in the MoS forum.

I too do not understand why anyone could loathe this film. It's spectacular. It has unbelievable depth, is absolutely beautiful to look at, and it touches upon many elements of the human condition ..... but through the guise of a superhero.

What I love most about it is how it's told in non-linear fashion. Ironically I think that's why it catches so much flack. It's like it's too much work for people to watch a movie where as you progress forward toward the climax, you also intermittently jump back to develop the motivations of each character. It's such a departure from Hollywood's insistence on always doing it at the beginning of movies.

Rorshach still completely steals this movie for me.

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Old 06-15-2013, 04:03 PM   #112
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Rorshach still completely steals this movie for me.
How can a central character steal a movie?

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Old 06-15-2013, 07:04 PM   #113
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I haven't watched it in a couple years and just watched it again after it was brought up in the MoS forum.

I too do not understand why anyone could loathe this film. It's spectacular. It has unbelievable depth, is absolutely beautiful to look at, and it touches upon many elements of the human condition ..... but through the guise of a superhero.

What I love most about it is how it's told in non-linear fashion. Ironically I think that's why it catches so much flack. It's like it's too much work for people to watch a movie where as you progress forward toward the climax, you also intermittently jump back to develop the motivations of each character. It's such a departure from Hollywood's insistence on always doing it at the beginning of movies.

Rorshach still completely steals this movie for me.


I think Snyder made a better film in Man of Steel, but Watchmen is definitely my second favorite film by him.

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Old 06-15-2013, 08:08 PM   #114
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I think Snyder made a better film in Man of Steel, but Watchmen is definitely my second favorite film by him.
I agree.

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Old 06-15-2013, 11:00 PM   #115
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The reason why most people (the general audience) didn't like the movie is its CONFUSING! Especially at least 90% of the general audience didn't the source material.

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Old 06-16-2013, 12:11 AM   #116
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Love this movie. It was and still is a very hard book to think of as a movie and Snyder did amazing in doing that IMO

Movie is long and that's why I don't watch it as much as I should. Man of Steel may be Snyders best but idk. I'm like the only guy who loves all his movies(sucker punch don't Count mulligan on that one)

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Old 06-16-2013, 01:08 PM   #117
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The reason why most people (the general audience) didn't like the movie is its CONFUSING! Especially at least 90% of the general audience didn't the source material.
What's confusing about it?

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Originally Posted by culver3vlr22 View Post
Love this movie. It was and still is a very hard book to think of as a movie and Snyder did amazing in doing that IMO
What's amazing is that Alan Moore raved about it after he finally caved in and watched it.

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Old 06-16-2013, 06:09 PM   #118
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I want to know if anyone here thinks this is a legitimate criticism or if I missed the point...

I thought that the Watchmen movie stylised scenes which were deliberately un-stylish in the book. For example, the fight scene with muggers, and the sexual assault. In the book it felt to me the artist made a point to make those scenes un-glamorous and dull, as if saying "if the violence and sexism in some comics really happened, it would look like this, depressing not exciting"

Wheras in the movie, I felt the director shot those scenes to look cool and stylish, with slow-mo, impressive camera shots, etc, missing the effect of the book.

Almost felt like the film was a glamorous movie version of the events that was made in the books universe.

On the other hand, that method of filming was unsettling in it's own way. For example, filming Comedian from below in a classic Superhero movie pose, while he attempts sexual assault, or combining "summer blockbuster" slow-mo with brutal gore, it did make a strange effect. But the not the same point the book made. Instead of "violent fights and terrorising women does not look glamorous in real life" it became "they do look glamorous but you will feel guilty and unsettled that they do" effect.
Alan Moore wasn't trying to make the scenes look dull. They are intense moments of humanity, and he intended them to be seen as such. Look at the colors and shading utilized in the alley fight in the book. He was trying to show the brutality of the actions of the characters.

I don't think that these things were done to look cool in the movie. I think it's done to juxtapose how superhero fight scenes and moments are usually DESIGNED and filmed to look cool and iconic, and then pointing out the underlying violence of the act/s. Which is kind of what Moore did, but since it's now been translated to film, it works on an almost metafilm level, because it almost serves as a commentary on other superhero FILMS themselves, not just general superhero stories and concepts.

I don't know that it entirely worked, because obviously everyone thinks Snyder did it to look "cool", though I do think people overlook some of the subtle genius of Snyder's film adaption of WATCHMEN.

I don't think cool was the aim though, anymore than 300's portrayals of violence were designed just to look "cool".

Snyder's a visual director, but he's also an intelligent director. I don't think a film looking visually beautiful in terms of shot choices, etc while also making a point is a bad thing on any level.

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Old 06-17-2013, 08:52 PM   #119
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Watched the movie yesterday. And it's a movie i think just gets better with time.

Thinking of re reading the book here soon I just love the watchmen world it's easily my favorite book ever.

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Old 06-18-2013, 04:56 PM   #120
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It does get better with time. It's like one of the most underrated CBM movies ever.

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Old 06-18-2013, 05:08 PM   #121
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Then why the **** did none of us watch it back in 2009?

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Old 06-19-2013, 11:13 AM   #122
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I think i saw the film 4 Times at the Cinema in 2009, possibly Five.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:12 PM   #123
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Yeah I saw Watchmen in theaters, I really enjoyed it, it just seemed slow at parts.

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Old 06-19-2013, 02:49 PM   #124
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Then why the **** did none of us watch it back in 2009?
WE did watch it, the general public on the other hand...I think that this may have been too cerebral a film for the GA especially since it was classified as a "superhero movie".

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Old 06-19-2013, 11:09 PM   #125
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The Director's Cut is in my Top 10, maybe top 5 greatest comic book films list. Its a very solid adaption to the best story ever told on comic pages.

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