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Old 07-18-2015, 02:05 PM   #1
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Default Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

A couple of weeks ago, there was a discussion about this film possibly being an adaptation of A Serious House of Serious Earth. This got me to thinking, if they were to adapt this graphic novel, which villains should they include? That then lead me to question exactly which villains in Batman's rogues gallery could really be classified as criminally insane.

So, who would actually inhabit the madhouse that Arkham built?

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Old 07-18-2015, 10:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

Just looking at the big name rogues. . . Joker and Two Face are the only ones who really come to mind. Penguin is just a crook, Catwoman is just a thief, Riddler has issues but is legally sane, Mr Freeze likewise.

Poison Ivy is a borderline case, as it depends on whether she thinks she can talk to plants, or whether she actually *can*.

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Old 07-18-2015, 10:36 PM   #3
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

I'm starting to wonder if Joker really belongs there either. Like he does have some sort of mental illness, there's no denying that, but every crime he's done is clearly premeditated and done with the intent of killing people.
In the legal sense of the word, he's not actually insane. He's fully aware of what he's doing, and has no remorse for it either.

You'd also think that eventually they'd try him in a national court instead of a state court and just give him the death penalty. Of course, that's not much of a story, is it...

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Old 07-18-2015, 10:54 PM   #4
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

I think Jervis Tetch would qualify.

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Old 07-18-2015, 10:58 PM   #5
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

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I'm starting to wonder if Joker really belongs there either. Like he does have some sort of mental illness, there's no denying that, but every crime he's done is clearly premeditated and done with the intent of killing people.
In the legal sense of the word, he's not actually insane. He's fully aware of what he's doing, and has no remorse for it either.

You'd also think that eventually they'd try him in a national court instead of a state court and just give him the death penalty. Of course, that's not much of a story, is it...
Yeah, Joker is a just a psychopath, there is no evidence he is actually criminally insane.


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Old 07-18-2015, 11:04 PM   #6
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

Mad Hatter, the Ventriloquist, and Zsasz.

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Old 07-19-2015, 12:28 AM   #7
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

I'd try and use Hugo Strange as an excuse; have him intentionally declare certain criminals as legally insane, then try and make them worse. For instance, since actual multiple personality diagnosis are becoming a bit more controversial, I'd have him tackle a Harvey Dent who clearly was traumatized and disturbed by his burning, but Strange is the one who programs him with a separate personality he has to fight with. Or Jervis, who is disassociated from reality, willingly takes his medication and wants to get help, and then Strange aggravates his mental state and gives him an immunity to most medication. Maybe he blackmails and utilizes guys like Nygma, and they latch onto his diagnosis as a fall back.

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Old 07-19-2015, 12:55 AM   #8
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

I don't think Riddler is sane. He's intelligent, but so is Joker. But he's also obsessed, narcissistic, and psychopathic, like Joker.

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Old 07-19-2015, 08:10 AM   #9
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

I think most sane people are somewhat predictable.

The Joker is not. That's one of the reasons he's a worthy adversary of Batman, who's greatest stength is strategy.

Though it's hard to pin point an exact mental condition he has. It's probably because the Joker is more of a symbolic ideal of insanity rather than a realistic interpretation.

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Old 07-19-2015, 10:58 AM   #10
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

Donald Trump
Bill Cosby
The Duggar guy

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Old 07-19-2015, 01:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

The Joker, Harley, Two-Face, The Ventriloquist, maybe more.

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Old 07-19-2015, 02:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

Arguably most of them belong in Arkham, so I'm just going to list the ones who don't belong there to keep it short.

Penguin, Black Mask, Catwoman, Bane, Clayface (this one's more on the fence for me), Deadshot, Firefly, Great White Shark, Hugo Strange (depending on the writer), Killer Croc (depending on the writer), Man-Bat (depending on the writer), Ra's al Ghul

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Old 07-20-2015, 04:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

I'm willing to suspend belief and accept that the Joker, whose whole premise is supposed to be "bat**** insane madman", would and should count as legally insane. The fact that he doesn't come off as such half the time is a failure of execution, not of intent.

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Old 07-20-2015, 04:10 PM   #14
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supa View Post
I'm starting to wonder if Joker really belongs there either. Like he does have some sort of mental illness, there's no denying that, but every crime he's done is clearly premeditated and done with the intent of killing people.
In the legal sense of the word, he's not actually insane. He's fully aware of what he's doing, and has no remorse for it either.

You'd also think that eventually they'd try him in a national court instead of a state court and just give him the death penalty. Of course, that's not much of a story, is it...
By the description I've bolded, he's a sociopath and so yes he certainly would be 'detained'.

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Old 07-21-2015, 06:05 AM   #15
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
Arguably most of them belong in Arkham, so I'm just going to list the ones who don't belong there to keep it short.

Penguin, Black Mask, Catwoman, Bane, Clayface (this one's more on the fence for me), Deadshot, Firefly, Great White Shark, Hugo Strange (depending on the writer), Killer Croc (depending on the writer), Man-Bat (depending on the writer), Ra's al Ghul
Well, since Arkham is an asylum for the criminally insane. Is it criminally insane of Firefly to spread arson around a city, burning down businesses, homes, and people undoubtedly inside?
Is it criminally insane of Clayface to have trouble mainting his true image and personality, and sticking to it, rather than assuming the images and personalities of other for the purpose of perpetrating a number of crimes?
Deadshot. Usually he possesses a death wish, which is brought about by a suicidal tendency, and this gives him the push to carry out daring risks. He is insane because of it, and a criminal.
Killer Croc. A cannibal who has a desire to eat human flesh. If he doesn't belong in an asylum, then I don't know who else does

I don't know if those characters belong in a criminal asylum, or a just a mental ward in Gotham General, but they're not sane enough to withstand a trial.

Penguin, Catwoman and Black Mask (though people might class him as insane for murdering his parents and carving his mask from his father's coffin (?)) They are the ones who wouldn't get past an insanity plea.

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Old 07-21-2015, 03:59 PM   #16
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

Most of those things, though, aren't legal insanity, which is separate from mental illness. One can have suicidal inclinations or obsessions with fire, and this doesn't mean a damn thing for the legal culpability of your actions. The requirements are pretty narrow to qualify for legal insanity:

1. You are rendered unaware of your actions

2. You are rendered unaware of the consequences of your actions

3. You are incapable of controlling your actions

Note that last one, especially, is interpreted *really* narrowly. Usually it takes something on the order of an organic brain condition literally corroding a hole in the wrong area of the brain to qualify as "actually incapable of controlling one's actions".

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Old 07-21-2015, 04:26 PM   #17
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

Clayface isn't really crazy, as was alluded to in Arkham City when he said he "wasn't even supposed to be in there." I think the experiment kinda made him a little aggressive but not crazy.

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Old 07-23-2015, 04:04 PM   #18
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

I suppose one could rationalize things by having Arkham have the facilities for containing superhuman or otherwise weird individuals. I'd want an actual explicit acknowledgement of this fact, though, and preferably some justification for why they'd put the facilities in Arkham rather than Blackgate.

This still wouldn't justify putting people like Penguin in Arkham, unless you want to go with levels of legal corruption that push into the realm of the incomprehensible

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Old 07-23-2015, 04:11 PM   #19
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

I like to think that over time, Arkham just became a prison for super criminals.

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Old 07-24-2015, 05:35 AM   #20
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

Ah, nice thread. It's a good question. Off the top of my head:

Joker
Harley Quinn
Two-Face
Scarecrow
Mad Hatter
Ventriloquist (Scarface, by association)
Victor Zsasz

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Old 07-25-2015, 09:24 AM   #21
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

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Just looking at the big name rogues. . . Joker and Two Face are the only ones who really come to mind. Penguin is just a crook
Penguin's actually done time in Arkham several times;






I don't think he qualifies as insane, more obsessive than crazy.

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Old 08-02-2015, 11:50 AM   #22
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Default Re: Which villains actually belong in Arkham?

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Originally Posted by Supa View Post
I'm starting to wonder if Joker really belongs there either. Like he does have some sort of mental illness, there's no denying that, but every crime he's done is clearly premeditated and done with the intent of killing people.
In the legal sense of the word, he's not actually insane. He's fully aware of what he's doing, and has no remorse for it either.

You'd also think that eventually they'd try him in a national court instead of a state court and just give him the death penalty. Of course, that's not much of a story, is it...
No, you are right about The Joker but insane is a legal term. You can go by the Paul Dini/Alex Ross origin. In this he was a gangster who liked to kill people, do bad stuff but aside from that normal for the most part. After his "accident" life continued but when caught it was "oh I'm crazy so you can't take me away to the big house" kinda deal because this Joker was very intelligent. Think Jack Nicholson Joker where before the accident you don't see anything abnormal or strange about him per se.

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I think Jervis Tetch would qualify.
Definetly, as Jeph Loeb describes him in The Long Halloween as "Delusional. Schizophrenic. Homicidal."

And from Ed Brubaker "Jervis is obsessive-compulsive, and highly delusional. He's got an immature self-image, so he identifies more with children than adults. Oh and he's a genius, too."
Also noted in Gotham Central is Tetch will use rhyming as a defense mechanism. Tetch also has a obsession/fixation on hats. In Secret Sic he will not eat a piece of food without a hat on it and isn't interested in the sight of Knockout naked, because she isn't wearing a hat.

Everything in Tetch's life is an allegory to Wonderland, it's the only way to get through to him.

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Yeah, Joker is a just a psychopath, there is no evidence he is actually criminally insane.
Sociopath, not psychopath

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Penguin, Catwoman and Black Mask (though people might class him as insane for murdering his parents and carving his mask from his father's coffin (?)) They are the ones who wouldn't get past an insanity plea.
What if you count DeVito Penguin? hehe. Yeah Black Mask does have some issues and displays some umm behavior like using torture to get what he wants as they mentioned in Arkham Origins. Meanwhile, Catwoman is a character of interest to me always.

She comes off as something of a adrenaline junkie or something to me. Is she that interested in having the diamond or the chase after the diamond? She definitely has a few screws loose in that horrible Burton film but I digress. What if we look towards TAS which follows the comic pretty closely for the most part on the episode "Catwalk". Here she misses being the Catwoman but threw out the costume because of the law, doesn't want to get caught again. But Scarface strikes a deal with her to steal some jewels for him and insists that she misses the life, Scarface is right, she does miss being Catwoman. So of course she puts her costume back on and pulls the crime, but Scarface screws her over making her completely take the fall. She won't tell the whole story to Batman (ooh lying, how nice). Later on when the full story breaks out she says she knows what she was doing is wrong but did it anyway. I think this fits with being incapable of controlling your own actions. But it gets worse, she kills Scarface (well just a dummy, no biggie) but then goes after the weak and timid Ventriloquist trying to kill him. Of course Selina has been prone to kill but not like this.

I don't know, I know it's just one episode but overall she made some ****** decisions. She is aware of the consequences of her actions but doesn't care, the thrill makes up for it. She even knew she shouldn't of gotten mixed up with Scarface, but did it anyway. This sounds like sociopathic behavior to me. Plus, she refuses to let Batman truly help her, who wants to help her.
Sure, maybe she's not crazy and just stupid I dunno, feel free to reign if you want I don't mind.

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