Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by Ipodman

Why is Anne winning?

Because in a group of 75 people...47 preferred Anne's work .

[The Joker]

milost, I am loving your posts. Keep up the good work

Originally Posted by regwec

Because TDKR happened quite recently, so some people feel a sense of ownership to it.

She will be long forgotten by the time we get a new Catwoman in a new movie.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no sense of ownership towards TDKR, and think it's easily the weakest one in Nolan's trilogy. There's a hundred and one things I would change about it if I could.

But Anne Hathway's performance is not one of them. I really loved her, and think she was the highlight of the movie. I genuinely enjoyed her more than Michelle. Not that I didn't love Michelle's performance, too.

It would be just as easy to say those voting for Michelle are looking at her through the fog of nostalgia, like it is to say those voting for Anne are doing it because of the newness of TDKR.

[milost]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no sense of ownership towards TDKR, and think it's easily the weakest one in Nolan's trilogy. There's a hundred and one things I would change about it if I could.

But Anne Hathway's performance is not one of them. I really loved her, and think she was the highlight of the movie. I genuinely enjoyed her more than Michelle. Not that I didn't love Michelle's performance, too.

Thanks for the kind words man.


To tie all my criticisms of TDKR, back to Catwoman, I also agree that she's one of the few stand out things that actually work in the movie. The movie has a lot of problems, but she's not one of them. Would it be too much to say that she's best thing about it? I mean yeah, the clean slate flash drive thing is pretty bad as far as writing goes, but Catwoman as a character, Hathaway's performance? It's just fine.


She's pretty much the only thing that isn't convoluted in the story. She wasn't "some little girl during the events of Batman Begins" with a contrived back story, she wasn't "Ra's Al Ghul's secret love child", she was simply Selina Kyle/Catwoman. A thief with a heart, like some of the familiar comic interpretations. There's also the fact that she's one of the few things that are actually new and fresh by the third film. She isn't a retread of Begins or Dark Knight and is pretty much the only strong, well written female character out of all three films. If I had one gripe, again, it'd be that there wasn't enough of her and I wanted to see more. But that's not Hathaway's fault, that's the story, that's the writers. It's too bad we didn't get to see this Catwoman interacting with Batman in a non-Bane/LoS movie. It's great in the beginning when Bruce is going after HER and is curious and interested after what she pulls at Wayne Manor. Once the main forces get involved though, you sort of want to go back to that normalcy without Bane, without the mercenaries, without the nuclear bomb and without the city under siege.

I can easily picture this character, out and about, doing her own thing outside of the "working with Dagget, Bane and the League of Shadows" scenario we find her in at TDKR. She's just that special type of character where you can imagine it just working.






As for the whole Hathaway v. Pfeiffer, I think they're both great portrayals and interpretations of Catwoman. I might like Pfeiffer a little more, simply because there's more to her Catwoman but Hathaway is no slouch. What's there is great. And besides, she's something new. We've known and talked about the Pfeiffer Catwoman for 20 years, it's not like Hathaway is a retread of Pfeiffer, there's some new stuff to talk about and only adds to Catwoman as a comic and film character.

[Anno_Domini]

milost, I look forward to replying later today, but would you prefer if I have the replies on another thread since we're not even talking about Catwoman? Lol.

I need my turn to "slay the beast"(your posts )

[milost]

Yeah, I actually suggested that a couple of posts back. Feel free!

[Anno_Domini]

Look for it on the general discussion thread then

[regwec]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no sense of ownership towards TDKR, and think it's easily the weakest one in Nolan's trilogy. There's a hundred and one things I would change about it if I could.

But Anne Hathway's performance is not one of them. I really loved her, and think she was the highlight of the movie. I genuinely enjoyed her more than Michelle. Not that I didn't love Michelle's performance, too.

It would be just as easy to say those voting for Michelle are looking at her through the fog of nostalgia, like it is to say those voting for Anne are doing it because of the newness of TDKR.

Just to be clear, I was only teasing.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by regwec

Just to be clear, I was only teasing.

That's good to know then

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by Ipodman

Why is Anne winning?

Because most posters got taste. Boom!

I actually like Pffeifer a lot. Long story short, the version Anne plays is a lot closer to the comics and a lot more empowered, so it gets more votes.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by regwec

Because TDKR happened quite recently, so some people feel a sense of ownership to it.

She will be long forgotten by the time we get a new Catwoman in a new movie.

Doubtful. Read above why she is winning. And if people can still remember the multiple actresses from the '60s or Halle Berry, Anne will be long remembered. Especially by fans who have a preference for fidelity to the comics.

[BlueLightning]

I finally decided. The question in the poll was "Who made the better Catwoman?", even though Pfeiffer was iconic and compelling, Hathaway was better writing and performed with a lot of passion. So my vote goes to Hathaway.

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by Anita18

I preferred Anne since her Selina wasn't crazy. And I'm as much "girl power" as the next feminist, but I'm much more of a fan of "showing not telling." TDKR's Selina was badass without having to say it or be ostentatious about it. In fact, most of the time she pretended she was helpless and then whupped ass when everyone least expected it.

Which was awesome. Because of this I think Anne’s Selina is someone who would be more able to trick people in comparison to Michelle’s version. Anne’s Selina also has conflict (wanting the clean slate and new life) but it seems more internalised and doesn’t manifest itself as unhinged.

Originally Posted by Tequilla

Because in a group of 75 people...47 preferred Anne's work .

Indeed. And it's up to 51 now. People have decided for themselves.

Originally Posted by The Joker

It would be just as easy to say those voting for Michelle are looking at her through the fog of nostalgia, like it is to say those voting for Anne are doing it because of the newness of TDKR.

Excellent point. Rest assured my vote won’t be changing. The pope is catholic.

[OutOfBoose]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Because most posters got taste. Boom!

Yeah, right.

I actually like Pffeifer a lot. Long story short, the version Anne plays is a lot closer to the comics and a lot more empowered, so it gets more votes.

Glad you like Pffeifer a lot. But don't start this nonsense about comic origins... BOTH Nolan and Burton versions are equally faithful. Just different eras and stories.

My opinion, Anne gets more votes because of many secondary factors and also because of newness. I like Anne's Selina a lot, but when she's out of her Cat-suit. Also, when she doesn't mention that ridiculous Clean Slate BS, which is even worse than the evaporator weapon, fingerprints from a bullet and the clean energy nuclear bomb. It can compete only with, probably, the attack on the stocks.

[OutRiddled]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Yeah...except Burton's Catwoman is DEFINED by the gender politics in the movie. Her chauvanistic boss tosses her out a window making her become Catwoman. What line sets off her madness back home? "Your boss will be asking you to stay late for a candlelight dinner for two..." a line implying the only way working women can progress their career is by sleeping their way to the top. It infuriates the wronged Selina Kyle who then DESTROYS images of docile girlhood like stuffed animals and doll houses before making a sexy S&M outfit that lets her take control of her womanhood. What are her first four lines out on the town?

1) "I just love a big strong man who can pick on someone half his size."

2) "Be gentle, it's my first time."

3) "You make it so easy waiting for some Bat...MAN to save you. I am Cat..WOMAN. Hear me roar!"

4) "You men always confusing your pistols with your privates...You're overpaid!"

All of that is about her gender role as a woman taking control in a man's world by kicking ass. That is how Burton views the end. As an empowered independent woman, she cannot let herself be dominated or domineered by a rich man who wants to play her Prince Charming to take her away to "live in your castle forever like a fairy tale." She can't live with herself. She is entirely defined by her sexuality and the woman's role in the modern world and the independence that goes with that.

Nolan's Selina Kyle? She is a cat burglar who can handle herself. End of story, at least in terms of gender. We can go down the road of social revolutionary, but she does not define herself as a woman first and neither do any of the other characters except for Daggett who is depicted to be cartoonishly stupid and oblivious.

Anne Hathaway's Catwoman wasn't really defined by anything, though, just another hot chick in black leather kicking ass. Batman Returns was making an interesting statement about gender politics.

[milost]

I bet if there was an option for "Both" in this poll, it'd have the majority.


That's all I seem to see in this thread, "I like this one for this reason, and this one for that reason, I might like the other a little more though for this reason".

[Anno_Domini]

Oh, "Both" would be in the lead most definitely.

Michelle was iconic, and Anne was surprising and very entertaining. They both had their pros, as opposed to if a poll asked for who the better Two-Face or Bane was, lol.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by milost

I bet if there was an option for "Both" in this poll, it'd have the majority.

I wish it had "both" in the poll...it would make it a lot easier for me.


They both define an era in the Bat-films and I love them both now, I'll most definitely love them later......most likely always

[Bruce Malone]

I like pfeiffer better as an actress overall but Burton's Catwoman was just too off for me really. The insinuation that we she was some sort of "zombie" essentially who had actually 9 lives and was revived by cats was just too burton-ish really and had very little to do with catwoman.

It was more sort of his statement on the modern woman and feminism combined with his goth attitudes, that he happened to use the catwoman character as a vessel for. I actually like Returns as a movie but catwoman to catwoman anne's was character just felt more like catwoman.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by OutOfBoose

Yeah, right.

Glad you like Pffeifer a lot. But don't start this nonsense about comic origins... BOTH Nolan and Burton versions are equally faithful. Just different eras and stories.

My opinion, Anne gets more votes because of many secondary factors and also because of newness. I like Anne's Selina a lot, but when she's out of her Cat-suit. Also, when she doesn't mention that ridiculous Clean Slate BS, which is even worse than the evaporator weapon, fingerprints from a bullet and the clean energy nuclear bomb. It can compete only with, probably, the attack on the stocks.

I never recall a Catwoman in the comics who was psychotic, mentally unstable, swallowed birds and may or may not have been supernaturally resurrected by cats. Never mind Selina Kyle: the Patron Saint of Working Girl Suffering.

It is a Burton take and fun.

[regwec]

Catwoman was crazy throughout the Silver Age, and her origin now features a possible resurrection by cats.

Hathaway' s Selina Kyle is neither faithful or unfaithful to the Catwoman of the comics- it just has little to do with it.

[milost]

I don't remember Catwoman swallowing a bird. I remember her putting a bird in her mouth to intimidate/shock the Penguin (who threatens to knife a cat), but I don't remember her eating birds.



Both Catwomans are "accurate" to the comics in appearance and characterization. What one has, the other doesn't. Where's Hathaway's whip? Her claws? Where are Pfeiffer's goggles? Hell, where are either of their big old, furry cat masks? How come Hathaway doesn't antagonize or ever fight Batman? How come Pfeiffer is never Batman's ally? Where is Hathaway's mean streak? Why doesn't Pfeiffer ever steal any jewels?



If you're looking for a "deeper" more complex characterization of Catwoman, Pfeiffer is the way to go. While she isn't exactly grounded, there's more to her in story and writing. She's much more poignant.

If you're looking for a visceral, fun experience of Catwoman where they play her up a bit, Hathaway is the way to go. While she's more one dimensional, she's definitely a thrill to see in action (from simply talking and moving around, being the character to full blown action scenes).

[Kansiov]

Originally Posted by regwec

Catwoman was crazy throughout the Silver Age, and her origin now features a possible resurrection by cats.

Not true. She was more of a villain and a robber, but Silver Age Catwoman was not crazy; she was still in complete control of her actions unlike Burton's Selina Quinn who is neither a robber nor a burglar to begin with.

[OutOfBoose]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

I never recall a Catwoman in the comics who was psychotic, mentally unstable, swallowed birds and may or may not have been supernaturally resurrected by cats. Never mind Selina Kyle: the Patron Saint of Working Girl Suffering.

It is a Burton take and fun.

1) Check this article:
http://www.batman-online.com/feature...iffer-catwoman

2) She didn't swallow a bird. Did you really watch the movie?

3) Psychotic - maybe she wasn't like that in the comics. But it was made for the sake of her story arc, for the sake of the movie. Considering, that everyone in Batman universe is crazy, I don't mind her like that. At the same time, Nolan's Selina suffered some changes too. For the same reason.

[Monicabbm]

I vote for Michelle Pfeiffer hands down.

[DACrowe]

I actually am completely fine with Selina in BR, because it is a Burton film and has little to do with the comics (i.e. Batman kills, Penguin is a deformed freak raised by super-intelligent penguins in the sewers, Catwoman has 9 lives, etc.).

But I will not pretend there is a false equivalency. The changes Nolan made were mostly superficial. He does not call her Catwoman or give her claws and a whip. But she is a thief, a social climber, very sane and romantically involved with Batman without it being a message about male domination of feminine independence (not that there is anything wrong with that theme). She is both foe to Batman (did people really miss when she betrayed him, reluctantly or not?) and friend (the ending). It is pretty much how the character has been presented on the page for 30 years.

Pffeifer plays a great Burton character. But she has supernatural powers, is psychotic and is a product of German Expresionism in that the level of her sanity and self-control is correspondent with the level of damage and wholeness of her costume. Sure she has a cowl, claws and is played amazingly by Pffeifer, but let's not pretend it is remotely similar to the comics..

I likely prefer the Hathaway one because of fidelity and also because I like the dynamic of Batman and Catwoman being allies instead of her being a generic villain. But I can see the appeal of the other.

Also, yes, I realize she let go of the bird. It is called hyperbole.