The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > Batman > The Dark Knight Rises

View Poll Results: Who made the better Catwoman?
Michelle Pfeiffer 65 37.57%
Anne Hathaway 108 62.43%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-17-2013, 02:14 PM   #326
Snow Queen
Side-Kick
 
Snow Queen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,298
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by regwec View Post
She's a she? Never knew that.
I don't know why I typed she. I honestly am not sure either way.

Snow Queen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2013, 05:24 PM   #327
DACrowe
Side-Kick
 
DACrowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 26,038
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by regwec View Post
I think it is possible to interpret the supernatural elements overly literally. Catwoman certainly believes in them, and the audience is invited to believe in them, but I think they are an emanation of the Gothic, dream-like fairytale that Burton wove into the movie's fabric. In a similar fashion, I don't think The Penguin is a literal monster- it is instead the natural depiction of an ugly social outcast in this alternative world. Neither of these elements are, I think, any less faithful to the source material than The Joker wearing makeup. Both are an inevitable consequence of the different worlds that the different directors weave: Burton turned the colour up, Nolan turned it right down.

I should point out that the "resurrection" origin is once again "canon", at least prima facie.



This has been much criticised by some readers, but I think that is because they tend to insist on a literal interpretation of it. I would, instead, see it as symbolic: the mirror of the bat crashing through Bruce Wayne's window as he debates whether to let himself die. In both cases, the character is at their very lowest ebb: things can't go on the way they have. They face a choice between death and rebirth. By mirroring Batman's origin in Catwoman's, her status as a Batman "copy cat" is actually strengthened, and we begin to develop a sense of the psychological path that a character treads to enter that bizarre life.

As for the "hear me roar" line- it is an obvious tongue-in-cheek reference to the feminist themes with which Burton was playing. I can't find the origin of the quote, but it was a well worn mantra of the 1980s feminist movement.

You see the essence of the Joker is that he is an insane (or super-sane if you love Morrison jibberish ) anarchist bent on creating chaos because order, society and violence are all jokes to him. I think one could even argue Nolan's Joker is no more or less faithful to the comics than Nicholson's. The make-up is a superficiality like how Nicholson's Joker has a permanent smile or Keaton is not as tall as the comic counterpart.

The basic essence of Catwoman is that she is a very sane and selfish cat-burglar who uses his criminality as a means to an end to get rich and live the high-life as a social climber. She walks the line between good and evil by flirting with Batman who she in equal turns partners with and can betray.

Making her a psychotic feminist allegory with supernatural abilities and Expressionist parables is pretty far removed from that essence. It is a great Burton creation and if you prefer it, that's fine. But you cannot pretend it is just as faithful to the comics as Nolan's Joker or really any of Nolan's villains save for Talia, who he equally rewrote as much as Burton did Catwoman (though I much prefer Burton's Selina to Nolan's Talia as an aside).

As for a literal interpretation of the supernatural in the movie? Burton always grays that line. It's part of his charm. But at the end of the movie she survives being shot with a magnum revolver 3 or 4 times and then being electrocuted by a charge that turned Shreck's skin to blackened bone. There is simply no way she could survive all that and still be on that rooftop a few hours later purring unless she is as supernatural as she purports. It is part of how the character is written in the movie.

__________________
"Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country."

--John Adams
DACrowe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2013, 05:32 PM   #328
DACrowe
Side-Kick
 
DACrowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 26,038
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pfeiffer-Pfan View Post
I just feel Nolan's approach was, ''She's a conflicted theif... just give her realistic ears to shut the fans up''.

Not ONCE when I was watching the movie did I feel like I was experiencing CATWOMAN. Anne was good (shes always good)... but the interpretation was just so damn lacking for me I'll never fully embrace it.

Not to mention, I don't really care much for fidelity to the source material, just like the majority of the general public. Therefore I feel the part came across as a little generic in Nolan's world. In truth, I feel the next big-screen Catwoman has a better chance of being the definitive one.

Jack Nicholson was the definitive Joker... then Heath completely demolished him. No question in the eyes of the public.

Michelle Pfeiffer has been the definitive Catwoman for 20 years... Anne didn't come close to re-defining the character in the same way. She was good but not good enough.
Might you be a bit biased?

I do not think Hathaway made people forget Pffeifer in the way Ledger erased Nicholson's impression (or Eckhart over TLJ for that matter).

However, I do think she held her own and is more than equally comparable. It is a matter of preference. I too am not one who is puritanical about comic book fidelity, otherwise I would have hated the ending of TDKR and both of Burton's movies. I like all three of those things (though Batman Returns is by far the weakest, IMO).

It is just I am more more intrigued by Selina Kyle as the morally ambiguous thief who is both an ally to Batman and a potential enemy (lenemy with love, instead of frenemy?) than just a straight up crazy villain. I see a lot of depth to Pffeifer's character, but I have never liked Catwoman as a straight-out villainess. I find it kind of boring and it also makes Batman seem really stupid for continuing to be romantically involved with her.

Hathaway and Nolan's take appeals to my sensibilities on the character. Hence, my preference.

__________________
"Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country."

--John Adams
DACrowe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2013, 05:35 PM   #329
DACrowe
Side-Kick
 
DACrowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 26,038
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
I don't know why I typed she. I honestly am not sure either way.
Huh? Really.

I will keep it vague then.

That is funny.

__________________
"Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country."

--John Adams
DACrowe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2013, 05:59 PM   #330
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 37,146
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
You see the essence of the Joker is that he is an insane (or super-sane if you love Morrison jibberish ) anarchist bent on creating chaos because order, society and violence are all jokes to him. I think one could even argue Nolan's Joker is no more or less faithful to the comics than Nicholson's.
http://www.jokerfans.blogspot.ie/

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2013, 06:13 PM   #331
Pfeiffer-Pfan
Meow.
 
Pfeiffer-Pfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 9,754
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
Might you be a bit biased?

I do not think Hathaway made people forget Pffeifer in the way Ledger erased Nicholson's impression (or Eckhart over TLJ for that matter).

However, I do think she held her own and is more than equally comparable. It is a matter of preference. I too am not one who is puritanical about comic book fidelity, otherwise I would have hated the ending of TDKR and both of Burton's movies. I like all three of those things (though Batman Returns is by far the weakest, IMO).

It is just I am more more intrigued by Selina Kyle as the morally ambiguous thief who is both an ally to Batman and a potential enemy (lenemy with love, instead of frenemy?) than just a straight up crazy villain. I see a lot of depth to Pffeifer's character, but I have never liked Catwoman as a straight-out villainess. I find it kind of boring and it also makes Batman seem really stupid for continuing to be romantically involved with her.

Hathaway and Nolan's take appeals to my sensibilities on the character. Hence, my preference.
I'm definitely biased... but I always strive to remove that from the debate. I've praised Anne to high heaven and don't think I could be any fairer to her.

Naturally, it's all preference... and it's fun to have different versions of the character to watch. But I really raise my eyebrows when people say Anne gave a ''better'' performance. Sorry, just can't help it...

Michelle is the much better actress in my eyes.

__________________
Michelle Pfeiffer:
Cool Rider, Catwoman, Diamond and all round Goddess
http://pfeiffer-pfan.tumblr.com/

I'll miss you dad! xx

Pfeiffer-Pfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2013, 06:14 PM   #332
Snow Queen
Side-Kick
 
Snow Queen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,298
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by dacrowe View Post
huh? Really.

I will keep it vague then.

That is funny.
Curse you!

Snow Queen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2013, 07:33 PM   #333
Bruce Malone
Side-Kick
 
Bruce Malone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Stay out of my territory
Posts: 5,822
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pfeiffer-Pfan View Post
I'm definitely biased... but I always strive to remove that from the debate. I've praised Anne to high heaven and don't think I could be any fairer to her.

Naturally, it's all preference... and it's fun to have different versions of the character to watch. But I really raise my eyebrows when people say Anne gave a ''better'' performance. Sorry, just can't help it...

Michelle is the much better actress in my eyes.
That's another argument though. I'd perhaps give you that. I think this thread is asking however who played a better Catwoman though.

In all honestly Burton pretty much took the catwoman name and used it to give title to his own "Burtonish" character creation. You can argue he did the same for the penguin.

I'd argue it's possible to assume that if Burton had never even done any research or had any familiarity of cat woman at all and was simply told to make a character called "catwoman" the end result would have probably tuned out the same.

Nolan's catwoman was very much the catwoman character through the nolan filter, the burton catwoman was very much a tim burton creation that happened to have the catwoman name.

Bruce Malone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2013, 10:48 PM   #334
OutRiddled
Banned User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

I think that Nolan making her a thief was just put in there to appease the fanboys and fangirls. It had no relevance to the plot whatsoever.

Making Catwoman a thief wouldn't work for a Batman movie. Otherwise it would be like a heist or detective movie or something.

Hathaway was only put in there for a romantic interest and some generic fight scenes. Her character was not very important to the movie.

OutRiddled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2013, 11:48 PM   #335
Happy Jack
Onion Knight
 
Happy Jack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Future
Posts: 6,125
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutRiddled View Post
I think that Nolan making her a thief was just put in there to appease the fanboys and fangirls. It had no relevance to the plot whatsoever.
Catwoman being a thief/grifter was the entire backbone of the character. Without that she'd have no incentive to want to change her life or identify with Bane's supposed revolution even though we see it's not actually what she wanted.

Quote:
Making Catwoman a thief wouldn't work for a Batman movie. Otherwise it would be like a heist or detective movie or something.
How are those things not Batman? Batman is a detective after all and he regularly goes after crooks.

Quote:
Hathaway was only put in there for a romantic interest and some generic fight scenes. Her character was not very important to the movie.
Her character served two major purposes. Early on in the movie she is the mouthpiece for Gotham's disenfranchised who eagerly awaits Bane's siege with a fatalistic mindset. This is broken down during the course of the movie with a redemptive character arc that is Batman's positive affect on his surroundings at play. This ties into Selina becoming Bruce's true companion for his new life outside of Gotham. Whereas Rachel was never really meant to be with Bruce and Miranda was a false lover, Selina proves herself to be Bruce's soulmate.

__________________
O Captain! My Captain! Rise up and hear the bells.
Rise up, for you the flag is flung, for you the bugle trills.
For you bouquets and ribbon'd wreaths, for you the shores a-crowding.
For you they call, the swaying mass, their eager faces turning.
Happy Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 12:52 AM   #336
OutRiddled
Banned User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

The movie was bogged down with too many characters that I wasn't really paying attention. Like who was that blonde girl with Catwoman? I didn't really care. The movie had no particular focus. They could've eliminated Catwoman, Robin and Talia from the movie and it would've made it much better. TDKR is nothing but a mess.

OutRiddled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 01:17 AM   #337
BatLobsterRises
Lobsterized
 
BatLobsterRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,711
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutRiddled View Post
I think that Nolan making her a thief was just put in there to appease the fanboys and fangirls. It had no relevance to the plot whatsoever.
A thief with a heart of gold has no relevance in a movie where a revolution against the rich takes place?

__________________
IMAGINE THE FIRE
My TDKR Metal cover
My MOS Trailer 3 score recreation
My take on why there is no "DC Films" Division at WB:
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...&postcount=158
BatLobsterRises is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 02:11 AM   #338
OutRiddled
Banned User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
A thief with a heart of gold has no relevance in a movie where a revolution against the rich takes place?
Was that what the movie was about? I couldn't tell you, because there were so many sideplots and multiple things going on.

OutRiddled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 12:06 PM   #339
DACrowe
Side-Kick
 
DACrowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 26,038
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

As you said, you did not pay attention. Eliminate Selina, Blake and Talia? In short you wanted a Batman vs. Bane action movie. Nolan had no interest in doing that.

I do agree the movie is overstuffed with themes and plot threads, but it works. However, if you missed that it is about:

A) The fear of social, economic collapse (in this case modeled heavily on the French Revolution)

and

B) Bruce Wayne overcoming his pain and anger to give Batman up while also redeeming his symbol for the city

Then, I cannot really help you there. These focal points were not exactly subtle.

__________________
"Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country."

--John Adams
DACrowe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 12:19 PM   #340
BatLobsterRises
Lobsterized
 
BatLobsterRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,711
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

^ And the thread of "rising" runs through all of that. Trying to improve your status in life but hitting a glass ceiling. The oppressed becoming oppressors. Men becoming legends, legends becoming men. Our hero rising above the darkness that has plagued his life and becoming fully human again.

__________________
IMAGINE THE FIRE
My TDKR Metal cover
My MOS Trailer 3 score recreation
My take on why there is no "DC Films" Division at WB:
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...&postcount=158
BatLobsterRises is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 12:49 PM   #341
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutRiddled View Post
The movie was bogged down with too many characters that I wasn't really paying attention. Like who was that blonde girl with Catwoman? I didn't really care. The movie had no particular focus. They could've eliminated Catwoman, Robin and Talia from the movie and it would've made it much better. TDKR is nothing but a mess.
If you weren't paying attention...how would you know who you would have eliminated to make a "better movie"?

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 01:36 PM   #342
shauner111
Side-Kick
 
shauner111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 10,249
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

I think it has more to do with the fact that he has a short attention span. It was pretty straightforward.

shauner111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 07:33 PM   #343
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Dang...a film only about twenty minutes longer than TDK and he couldn't take it...that's gotta suck.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 10:27 PM   #344
OutRiddled
Banned User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

HAHA There were too many things going on to properly digest in one sitting. I've only seen the film once all the way through. There were so many plot threads and characters, but none of them were interesting enough to keep me awake.

OutRiddled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 10:46 PM   #345
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Well that's your problem. You've only seen it once.

I felt the exact same way with The Dark Knight and couldn't really digest it all and had to see it the following night to catch everything that made me enjoy the film even more.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 10:48 PM   #346
BatLobsterRises
Lobsterized
 
BatLobsterRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,711
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

That's almost every Nolan movie really. On the special edition Blu-ray of Memento, he says himself that he aims to make movies that you have to go back and watch more than once, and actually get better the more you watch them. His philosophy is if he's going to put 1-2 years of his life into making something, he doesn't like the thought of it being watched once by people and then immediately forgotten about. And you can't blame him really.

__________________
IMAGINE THE FIRE
My TDKR Metal cover
My MOS Trailer 3 score recreation
My take on why there is no "DC Films" Division at WB:
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...&postcount=158
BatLobsterRises is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2013, 10:58 PM   #347
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

The most fascinating thing is that I could follow The Prestige the first time and that ended up being my favorite Nolan film, lol.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 12:01 AM   #348
Happy Jack
Onion Knight
 
Happy Jack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Future
Posts: 6,125
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

I've found The Prestige to be his most rewatchable film. That movie was a revelation the second time.

__________________
O Captain! My Captain! Rise up and hear the bells.
Rise up, for you the flag is flung, for you the bugle trills.
For you bouquets and ribbon'd wreaths, for you the shores a-crowding.
For you they call, the swaying mass, their eager faces turning.
Happy Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 01:03 AM   #349
OutRiddled
Banned User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
That's almost every Nolan movie really. On the special edition Blu-ray of Memento, he says himself that he aims to make movies that you have to go back and watch more than once, and actually get better the more you watch them. His philosophy is if he's going to put 1-2 years of his life into making something, he doesn't like the thought of it being watched once by people and then immediately forgotten about. And you can't blame him really.
If that's the case, maybe he should make his movies entertaining and not boring.

OutRiddled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 01:07 AM   #350
BatLobsterRises
Lobsterized
 
BatLobsterRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,711
Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutRiddled View Post
If that's the case, maybe he should make his movies entertaining and not boring.

__________________
IMAGINE THE FIRE
My TDKR Metal cover
My MOS Trailer 3 score recreation
My take on why there is no "DC Films" Division at WB:
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...&postcount=158
BatLobsterRises is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:36 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.