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View Poll Results: Who made the better Catwoman?
Michelle Pfeiffer 70 39.11%
Anne Hathaway 109 60.89%
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:22 PM   #151
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

BatLobster, although we nearly always disagree, I have to say that your posts are always so polite and reasonable that I tend to regret being on the other side. You are a model poster, really.

For a Nolanite drone, of course.

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Old 03-07-2013, 03:27 PM   #152
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

^ HA! I'll take it, good sir. Your eloquent posts often raise very solid points too that I always have to consider.

My thing is, nobody has to be right or wrong. I think there's always great points on both sides when it comes to debating these movies. It's just a matter of expressing how I feel for me, which I know is always going to come with a lot of subjectivity. As long as we can all remember we're being subjective to a degree, then I think we're all better off for it.

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Old 03-07-2013, 06:09 PM   #153
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I liked them both, Pfeiffer and Hathaway.

The difference between the two really is Pfeiffer had more to offer in terms of character and Hathaway was pretty much straight forward. Pfeiffer had more to chew on with characterization and development. My only gripe about Hathaway Catwoman is that there isn't more of her. Would have loved to have seen those early days where she was stealing as "the Cat" and wasn't looking for a clean slate.

I love how catty Hathaway is too, especially when her tone changes at Wayne Manor. Her Catwoman also has that great clever attitude. I just wish she was in a different type of Batman film with more to do, one that didn't have "clean slate" flash drives and a city hostage by a nuclear threat.

Those scenes with Bruce at the masked ball? The bar scene with the senator? All brilliant. For me, she's the stand out of TDKR by a long shot. Again, it's just a pity there's so little of her.


As for Pfeiffer, she's iconic. I love how she starts out, how mousy and meek she is. I mean you actually buy it. You buy that she's insecure and let's people walk all over her, no matter how nice or good she is. Then when she experiences that trauma and she totally changes. I love that scene in Returns where she breaks down and destroys her apartment, putting her cutesy stuffed animals down the disposal, spray painting over all of her nice things, it's a shame too because she can never go back to that way of thinking, and she knows it. There's great conflict there. For some reason, Batman/Catwoman and Bruce/Selina just ooze chemistry. Like you can sort of tell they're made for each other, just like the Batman/Catwoman stuff in the comics.

"I don't know who I am any more Bruce". It's just sad and depressing. But there's enough fun Catwoman stuff so it's not all about revenge. The Batman/Catwoman moments are some of the best parts of Returns.

While I don't like TDKR (I just like a few parts, namely Catwoman), I do love how both Catwoman's mirror each other. In Returns, there isn't a happy ending, as much as Bruce would like one. Selina knows this. It's not a fairy tale with a happy ending, not with how she feels or where she chooses to go. Returns ends on a bitter sweet, depressing note. Batman hasn't won, he lost Selina (as far as he knows), the one person he could really relate to and love. Rises ends in the exact opposite way. Wayne and Selina have that "fairy tale, happy ending" that Catwoman alludes to in Batman Returns, one she could never let her self have without feeling disgusted. Pretty good stuff.

It's like whatever one doesn't have (Hathaway has that jewel thief, modern element, Pfeiffer has the emotion and darker side), the other makes up for (like a cowl and goggles lol). I also like how in TDKR, Catwoman is more of an ally and in Returns, a conflicted antagonist. She doesn't really do any damage to Batman in TDKR than steal the pearls (which only fascinates him) and, I guess give him away to Bane? (He wanted to go there anyway, so it really wasn't a trap even though it plays out like that I guess.) In Returns, they're battling it out on the rooftops. She's taking advantage of him, clawing him up. The "thought of busting Batman makes her dirty". She opens up a bit towards him towards the end, but she's still her own person.


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Old 03-08-2013, 02:09 AM   #154
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I think the reason Anne's Catwoman sticks out to some people is because of the reasons OutOfBoose mentioned before. Her theatrical comic booky elements are never given any validation for being there.

We know why Bruce dressed up as a Bat and used the gadgets he used. We know why Crane wore the Scarecrow mask. We know why Joker wore the clown make up. We know why Two Face used the two headed coin. We know why Bane wore the mask etc.

Why did Selina need that domino mask, or the goggles, or have her hair flowing freely wearing that skin tight outfit? The heels were the only part of the costume that made any sense.
For a filmmaker who is never subtle, Nolan does put it all in there, just in terms surprisingly subdued for himself. She is clearly influenced by Batman as she watches him on the TV when he returns with amusement ("Well, what do you know."). Similarly, when she rides with him in the Bat, she has a look on her face that is not dissimilar to a fangirl going on a ride with a childhood idol.

As Joker said in the second movie, "You changed things." Or as Gordon said in the first, "escalation." Batman's appearance has caused criminals in Gotham to escalate towards theatricality. Nolan's Catwoman is clearly influenced, even somewhat in awe-inspired, by the Batman. So, as a cat thief, she adds a theatrical element to her look. The mask is to conceal identity, the heels are a weapon and the ears are goggles. The suit, while sexualized, is not that different from the skin tight outfits usually associated with cat burglars well beyond the confines of comic books or Nolan movies.

It is all there. He just does not spell it out, which is somewhat odd but refreshing for him. It is an economical way of developing why she dresses like this. Again, her motives for going there are not that different from Joker, who is an anarchist inspired by Batman to start dressing like a clown and upping his game in the Nolan universe. Selina is a thief inspired by Batman to add a motif to her look.

And again, it is nice for a supposedly strong empowered female to be all those things without the audience pointing a beacon at her being tough and expecting applause, which is what Selina, like all heroines of that decade, did in the Burton movie of that era.

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Old 03-08-2013, 02:23 AM   #155
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And again, it is nice for a supposedly strong empowered female to be all those things without the audience pointing a beacon at her being tough and expecting applause, which is what Selina, like all heroines of that decade, did in the Burton movie of that era.
Very much like this part. The fact that they don't make a huge show out of her being tough and she just is sends the proper message and makes her feel even stronger. She doesn't need to justify her presence in the film- she owns it. A lot of that came down to Anne's performance and she nailed it.

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Old 03-08-2013, 09:30 AM   #156
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

I have to say I love both but Michelle P always be the Cat.

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Old 03-08-2013, 11:12 AM   #157
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This may shock Guard, but, I'm gonna say lack of development is way worse, even though Anne's Catwoman kicked ass and I am less often in the mood for Michelle's style.
The proper use of logic rarely shocks me.

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Halle Berry as Catwoman was a wasted opportunity. That woman is sex on legs, but the movie made the concept somehow...gross. How?
I guess because it was horrible performance. I never thought I’d see Halle Berry as not sexy, but that's one of the few films that's ever made me cringe.

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The fact she has the (slightest) of cat motifs can also be chalked up to her clearly being a fan of Batman growing up in a city where, as The Joker says about escalation, he has changed things.
It CAN be. But it wasn’t in the movie.

And she doesn’t have a cat motif, really. She has goggles that HAPPEN to sort of look like cat’s ears when they’re up. The paper nicknames her "the cat", but there's never any suggestion that this is what she was going for.

I liked Hathaway’s performance a lot. She’s definitely a smidge “fake” in her sensuality, and people are picking up on that. I don’t buy that Selina Kyle is the sexpot she pretends to be at points during the film, and I don’t think we’re supposed to. I think it’s an act on Selina’s part. And that’s how I took the performance. Selina was having fun and putting on a bit of a “show” about who she was, when in reality, she was a bit more angry, less confident and more insecure in who she was and what her situation was. I’ve always seen the more modern, post 1990’s Catwoman that way. That’s one of the main differences between the Silver Age Catwoman, who Pfeiffer more or less embodied, and the Darwyn Cooke re-imagination/current version.

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I think the reason Anne's Catwoman sticks out to some people is because of the reasons OutOfBoose mentioned before. Her theatrical comic booky elements are never given any validation for being there.

We know why Bruce dressed up as a Bat and used the gadgets he used. We know why Crane wore the Scarecrow mask. We know why Joker wore the clown make up. We know why Two Face used the two headed coin. We know why Bane wore the mask etc.

Why did Selina need that domino mask, or the goggles, or have her hair flowing freely wearing that skin tight outfit? The heels were the only part of the costume that made any sense.

And, oddly, that makes the muting of her cat-like elements less realistic. It is entirely plausible that someone impressionable would emanate Batman, coming up with their own nocturnal persona. The motive for Hathaway's Catwoman is elusive. She seems to wear tight spandex and bend over motorcycles purely for our gratification. There is none of the collusion of sexuality, empowerment and motive that makes Catwoman great (Pfeiffer's being a fine example), possibly because Nolan makes the stylistic choice to subdue all outlandish elements.
This. The franchise essentially breaks its own rules regarding this character. It becomes a fairly glaring oversight on the part of the writers/editor.

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I feel like they trusted the pop culture collective understanding of Catwoman in choosing not to tell a new origin story.
That's exactly what they did, but they do so while almost appearing to be ashamed of the details of that pop culture icon. And that’s something of a no-no in writing. You cannot assume people know about the character going into a given project, especially when you're changing things. You still have to show what makes up that character to some extent.

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Kinda like how The Joker just was in TDK. Rather than explaining everything step by step with her it was more of a...."Okay, you know how this Gotham works by this point. Here's who Catwoman would be in this world."
But though he lacked a clear origin, even the elements of The Joker were explained in some sense. The suit, the makeup, etc.

[quote]I find it rather easy to imagine a backstory for her.

But we’re not talking about her backstory. We’re talking about what’s being presented currently in Selina's life during the film.

[quote]And the whole inspiration from Batman thing...I found that to be pretty clearly implied. She flips her "ears" up for the first time right as the newscast about Batman's return is on (hello symbolism), and then is shown to be rather excited by his return. That scene has no other purpose other than to show us she still has some reverence for him, unlike a lot of the city at that point.

Yeah...that’s just not there in the film .That’s really reaching as an interpretation. All that scene implies is that she has some interest in Batman.

In no way does that suggest that she, or her “vaguely cat-like motif” which she may not even be trying to accomplish on purpose, is inspired by Batman.

Quote:
As Joker said in the second movie, "You changed things." Or as Gordon said in the first, "escalation." Batman's appearance has caused criminals in Gotham to escalate towards theatricality.
Except that this theme was largely ignored in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES. Which I find criminal. You don’t introduce a brilliant idea like that, and a core idea of the Batman mythos, and then put a SLIGHT NOD to it in the sequel. That’s just lousy carryover from film to film.

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Very much like this part. The fact that they don't make a huge show out of her being tough and she just is sends the proper message and makes her feel even stronger.
No…it’s quite obvious they want you to think Selina is a badass. And they do so very visibly. A gunbattle, using her heels to stab Dagget…the fighting… the whole “I’m too tough and too much of a selfish loner to help others” angle, etc.

I think both versions have their strengths and weaknesses. In terms of overall impact as a character, I have to give it to Pfeiffer, who simply has a more complex character, and a better romantic and origin storyline in BATMAN RETURNS. Hathaway’s performance is just a bit too obvious in places, and she’s quite broadly drawn as a character. She really becomes more or less part of the background. At the end of the day, I’m glad we have both versions. They’re both fantastic.

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Old 03-08-2013, 11:37 AM   #158
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Speaking of escalation, I can't believe Nolan and company just did away with not only the Joker, but the freak element as well. It completely contradicts what was snowballing in TDK. I guess those heavy discussions of the future in the interrogation scene and prewitt siege were just psycho babble on the Joker's part? Despite the Joker knowing how everyone reacts given certain situations (he knew that Lau was up to no good, that Batman had no jurisdiction and would find him, how the cops would act, what would go on in certain events, etc. etc.)

So the Dent conspiracy not only made organized crime disappear (which the Joker decimated anyway) but a magical "Dent Act" gives the city peace time for years? Just because some low lives can never get out of jail? What happened to all those guys like Thomas Schiff, the jail cell bomb thug, all those Arkham Asylum patients and even the Joker himself? They weren't associated with the mob really and we're led to believe that the Joker didn't inspire a nasty following, especially when we saw all of his crazed hired help? Look at the impact Batman made, where's Gotham's reaction to the Joker other than cowering and being afraid?

For me, that was sort of disappointing. I think everyone expected things to get even worse, not the return of the League of Shadows, Gotham barricaded and nuclear Wayne Enterprises bombs. I still can't believe the lie between Batman and Gordon lasted as long as it did when you have loose ends like The Joker, Coleman Reese and Ramirez. Even Mike Engel was a anti-Batman supporter, but he was there when Batman saved his life, surely he'd be like, "wait a minute here". The GCPD never put together the fact that Batman was actually intervening and saving the hostages lives? Without him, the SWAT team would have killed innocent people. They never put that together after the fact. I just can't believe there was never an investigation, for 8 years everyone just sort of buys this weird, contrived thing.

And what about Batman being "hunted" and having the dogs set on him? Wouldn't there be an investigation where they'd knock people's doors down (especially Reese) to find Batman, the man that killed Harvey Dent? I mean we never get to see Batman being hunted down (a shame too, because I would have liked to have seen Gordon struggling with having to "accidentally" miss catching Batman, or having to secretly tip him off). They had an investigation in TDK, but they didn't really know who or what Batman was. But after TDK, everyone knows that he's just a mortal man and that citizens like Coleman Reese know about him. Some people might say, "well, forget about Reese and Ramirez, who cares about them", but I'd say they're pretty crucial. If you can keep bringing back minor characters like Loeb, the Mayor, Fredericks, Crane (useless in TDKR) and random cop #3, I think Reese and Ramirez should have a spot in there somewhere. We don't even get Stephens back, these random guys like Foley and Blake sort of just emerge out of no where and the latter just somehow knows everything there is to know despite never appearing in previous films.








But yeah, escalation. With the way things went in TDK, I just can't see that evolving into what happened in TDKR. It's just downright strange. No more Joker, no more Arkham, no more freaks, no more "you and I are destined to do this forever" but they're still talking about organized crime and mobs despite the fact that Joker utterly destroyed them, more so than Batman, Dent and Gordon ever did. So we're led to believe that the Joker can escape custody several times and has plans that have several back up plans, but he never found away out of the police custody after the Prewitt siege? It's not like Dent and the ferries were his end game, he always had "something else" up his sleeve, just when you thought he had done everything. What about his court trial? That'd would be story telling gold having him sit there with a judge and jury, on live television, answering for his crimes, maybe insinuating that Batman had nothing to do with the murders that Dent committed.



If Catwoman is the Nolans' and Goyer's slight answer to escalation and inspiration, I'm sorry, that's pretty bad. If that's the case, it's barely implied. I just can't believe that after TDK, everything just magically gets better, even if it's "seething under the surface" or whatever they said (that class war thing was never really dug into either). Yeah, Dent says in TDK "imagine what you could do with 18 months of clean streets" but that was before they were dealing with the likes of the Joker. The mob wasn't even a problem anymore after Gambol, the Chechen and Maroni were offed (I assume Dent killed him), it was all about the freak element. Cops became nasty and even Dent turned into a freakish criminal. So the whole peace thing, "Batman isn't needed anymore", just doesn't fly.


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Old 03-08-2013, 11:46 AM   #159
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It doesn't contradict anything. Nolan said even in a feature he wanted something actually "good" to happen after the Dent thing and the natural progression was making Dent become this idea to take about the mobs once and for all.

Personally, I also never got a "rise of the freaks" idea with Joker showing up. I just view him coming into the scene as being a direct set-up from BB with the "escalation" idea but TDKR needed to be a natural progression from TDK alone, not because of the "escalation" mentioned from Gordon. Something had to evolve as well instead of there being more "escalation".

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Old 03-08-2013, 11:48 AM   #160
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Just because The Joker said it doesn't mean it was going to come true. In a sense, that's what the ending of THE DARK KNIGHT was about. That not everyone was as ugly as The Joker. Batman even allowed Dent to "save face". The Joker said a lot of things that weren't true.

It doesn't contradict anything...it's just a dropped plotline/concept/series of themes in a sense. And yeah, I think it robbed the franchise of some of its potential.

Bane was kind of a "freak" and part of the whole escalation idea, but the related themes weren't very well handled from film to film.

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Old 03-08-2013, 12:01 PM   #161
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I think a part of the problem is that TDK delivers notably more colour and impact than BB, leading to a sense of the 'world of Batman' beginning to emerge through the washed out Gotham of Batman Begins. But it never happens, and we got a sort of Batman Begins 2, instead. Except that The Scarecrow doesn't wear his mask in this one.

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Old 03-08-2013, 12:01 PM   #162
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Just because The Joker said it doesn't mean it was going to come true. He said a lot of things that weren't true.
True, but he predicted everything else? From Lau being abducted to Gordon using Ferries, even Batman being "cast out" after it was all said and done?

So the really cool elements he alluded to like freaks, battling Batman (post TDK) are just done away with. I mean, he escaped MCU custody pretty effortlessly, he's the Joker. He never got out again to stir up the pot? Surely he'd have a trial on television that would make people question pretty much everything (it'd be fun too, I'm sure, more of a kangaroo court than we see in TDKR). So he just lies low forever after just being around for a few days, maybe a week tops?

But yeah, we know he couldn't even come back, but he clearly inspired others. Where are the people from Arkham? He had a gang of former patients. How about the Narrows that had all those crazed people, some of which like Crane that had disappeared from the island and couldn't receive Fox's antidote? No more Thomas Schiffs? No more Harvey Two-Faces? No more Berg's (who was not really a freak, sure, but pretty desperate). I mean if he could corrupt Dent and get a whole city bent out of shape, surely he'd do it to others. Nothing that is implied in TDK's future really ever happens, from everything above to Batman being hunted. Then important characters that were crucial to the stories plot from Joker to Ramirez are just dropped? Seems like a cop out, especially after all the questions everyone had after 2008.

"Harvey Dent Day's", "Peace time", a non-existent Batman, but not just him, a non-existent Batman, no Joker (not even a mention of existence despite there being a place for Dent, Rachel, Ra's, the LOS, the SWAT teams at Prewitt and Gordon's family). It's just odd. I think convenience would be an understatement with what TDKR does in story telling and plot.


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Old 03-08-2013, 12:06 PM   #163
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My thought on the "escalation" idea is that it actually wasn't introduced in The Dark Knight. It was introduced at the end of Batman Begins, and The Dark Knight is where the payoff was.

It's a great notion and nod to the mythos, but it's just hard to envision the escalation of freaks in Gotham to a point where it's worse than The Joker. He should be the pinnacle. So I think since they wrapped up The Joker's storyline, they were sort of in the clear there. And in fact, I think the escalation that happened at the end of TDK leading into TDKR was the response of the police/law to crime, which leads to the Dent Act. So there's kind of a see-sawing effect there in play where everything is set in motion by Batman.

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Old 03-08-2013, 12:14 PM   #164
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I think a part of the problem is that TDK delivers notably more colour and impact than BB, leading to a sense of the 'world of Batman' beginning to emerge through the washed out Gotham of Batman Begins. But it never happens, and we got a sort of Batman Begins 2, instead. Except that The Scarecrow doesn't wear his mask in this one.
The world isn't that bigger.

Carmine Flacone
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Dr. Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow
Ra's al Ghul/the League of Shadows


Sal Maroni
The Joker
Harvey Dent/Two-Face


don't know if you wanted to add the created characters for the film, but I hope you get what I mean. If anything, the point of escalation just had to happen in TDK and only then. To continue that theme would really give no true ending because if that theme were to continue, how could Bruce ever retire? And yes, Bruce had to retire as Nolan wanted to give the guy some closure, lol.

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Old 03-08-2013, 12:15 PM   #165
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but it's just hard to envision the escalation of freaks in Gotham to a point where it's worse than The Joker. He should be the pinnacle. So I think since they wrapped up The Joker's storyline, they were sort of in the clear there. And in fact, I think the escalation that happened at the end of TDK leading into TDKR was the response of the police/law to crime, which leads to the Dent Act. So there's kind of a see-sawing effect there in play where everything is set in motion by Batman.
What about all the loose ends and holes in the lie that wouldn't even make the Dent Act or Harvey Dent Day possible?

Gordon even says, "you can't just sweep that up", but it took 8 years, a coat pocketed letter that states the truth, conveniently found by a new baddy that everyone just automatically trusts (who's to say that Gordon even wrote that letter) before the truth comes to light? No Coleman Reese, the man who knew the identity of the most wanted man in Gotham after Joker (Batman)? No Ramirez, the person who survived Dent's killing spree? No eye witnesses? Those SWAT guys don't find it funny when they hear Dent talking to Gordon on the roof and Gordon leaves while Batman is there protecting hostages from being shot at? I mean no investigations happened? The city would want Batman's BLOOD wouldn't they? He killed Harvey Dent, the guy that just so happens to be so crucial and so good to the cities well being (despite the mob being a non-issue by the Dark Knight's third act anyway).

It's not like a real life conspiracy that we see on the news everyday. So many people are involved that it would never work. I mean it does, TDKR's existence proves that, but is it really faithful to what The Dark Knight establishes? Is it a true sequel or a what if. I mean it's telling that the most important forces and occurrences are done away with completely. The 8 year jump seems like a way of hoping that your audience won't notice (forget about what happened before, this is now, who the heck is the Joker? LOOK we brought back the League of Shadows!), especially when you jump in with "Harvey Dent Day".


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Old 03-08-2013, 12:17 PM   #166
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I don't think "bigger" has anything to do the evolution from muted "realism" to a more dramatic approach.

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Old 03-08-2013, 12:17 PM   #167
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no Joker (not even a mention of existence despite there being a place for Dent, Rachel, Ra's, the LOS, the SWAT teams at Prewitt and Gordon's family).
Nolan just didn't want to mention Joker because of Ledger. Hate it or love it, Nolan thought it was the safest route.

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Old 03-08-2013, 12:21 PM   #168
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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What about all the loose ends and holes in the lie that wouldn't even make the Dent Act or Harvey Dent Day possible?

Gordon even says, "you can't just sweep that up", but it took 8 years, a coat pocketed letter that states the truth, conveniently found by a new baddy that everyone just automatically trusts (who's to say that Gordon even wrote that letter) before the truth comes to light? No Coleman Reese, the man who knew the identity of the most wanted man in Gotham after Joker (Batman)? No Ramirez, the person who survived Dent's killing spree? No eye witnesses? Those SWAT guys don't find it funny when they hear Dent talking to Gordon on the roof and Gordon leaves while Batman is there protecting hostages from being shot at? I mean no investigations happened? The city would want Batman's BLOOD wouldn't they? He killed Harvey Dent, the guy that just so happens to be so crucial and so good to the cities well being (despite the mob being a non-issue by the Dark Knight's third act anyway).

It's not like a real life conspiracy that we see on the news everyday. So many people are involved that it would never work. I mean it does, TDKR's existence proves that, but is it really faithful to what The Dark Knight establishes? Is it a true sequel or a what if. I mean it's telling that the most important forces and occurrences are done away with completely. The 8 year jump seems like a way of hoping that your audience won't notice (forget about what happened before, this is now, who the heck is the Joker? LOOK we brought back the League of Shadows!), especially when you jump in with "Harvey Dent Day".
Coleman Reese should've been in this film, but for the others:

- Ramirez isn't shown at the very end of the film when Gordon is destroying the bat signal. She's gone by then and wouldn't return.

- Those SWAT members only hear a partial conversation that could be taken as Batman had kidnapped Dent and Gordon's family. Nothing to make it seem Dent kidnapped them.

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Old 03-08-2013, 12:24 PM   #169
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Nolan just didn't want to mention Joker because of Ledger. Hate it or love it, Nolan thought it was the safest route.
Yeah, and I understand that.


How about the other crucial players to the story (I've mentioned them above again again, along with the Joker? We got minor characters like Com. Loeb back, we get Crane in TDKR even though it's pretty useless, Fredericks (what purpose did he serve other than (family relation to Nolan)? Mayor Garcia? Aren't there even random cops that were in Batman Begins that show up again? Like the older cop in TDKR? Even dead characters that were less crucial than Joker and others are back in full force.

But Reese, Ramirez and the gang are never mentioned again (just saw your post about Ramirez, who's to say she isn't in the crowd? All we see is a smiling Stephens. Where's he at by the way, he was cool. Better than Foley.)

We have to fill in the blanks for them, but Crane, who was wrapped up in TDK is back (not even as Scarecrow) and . . . Fredericks?

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Old 03-08-2013, 12:32 PM   #170
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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It's a great notion and nod to the mythos, but it's just hard to envision the escalation of freaks in Gotham to a point where it's worse than The Joker.
One crazy, murderous terrorist?

Or many?

Which of those is worse?

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Old 03-08-2013, 12:32 PM   #171
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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- Those SWAT members only hear a partial conversation that could be taken as Batman had kidnapped Dent and Gordon's family. Nothing to make it seem Dent kidnapped them.


But Batman was just up there on the roof with Gordon, telling him to give him five minutes alone to see what was up, clearly checking before barging in (which was a mistake with the GCPD before, Batman learned from his previous encounter that, "it's never that simple", he was right).

I can't remember exactly, but I swear the SWAT guys hear Gordon and they're making confused faces. They would think it's Batman?

I mean, hahahaha, doesn't Gordon even say, "Harvey, where's my family?" on the phone? Gordon just said a minute ago that he NEEDED TO SAVE DENT, when Batman went down to investigate. It was common knowledge that everyone thought Dent was down there with the hospital hostages.



Then sure, Batman attacked the SWAT team, but nobody realized what he had done/what he was doing once they discovered that clowns were hostages and hospital employees were the thugs? Anyone with half a brain would put together that he just saved those hostages from being killed horribly. They don't get it even after Batman left them a DANGLING, Joker? I swear I'm not looking too far into this, the events of TDKR are just ridiculous after you watch TDK. Like I said, it's not just the Joker, there are too many loose ends for TDKR to work (with the story we ended up getting). Even in it's actual plot, stand alone from TDK or Begins there are major problems.


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Old 03-08-2013, 12:36 PM   #172
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Yeah, and I understand that.
Okay, cool.

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How about the other crucial players to the story (I've mentioned them above again again, along with the Joker? We got minor characters like Com. Loeb back, we get Crane in TDKR even though it's pretty useless, Fredericks (what purpose did he serve other than (family relation to Nolan)? Mayor Garcia? Aren't there even random cops that were in Batman Begins that show up again? Like the older cop in TDKR? Even dead characters that were less crucial than Joker and others are back in full force.
No past police officer from BB is in TDKR.

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But Reese, Ramirez and the gang are never mentioned again (just saw your post about Ramirez, who's to say she isn't in the crowd? All we see is a smiling Stephens. Where's he at by the way, he was cool. Better than Foley.)
Each film had their own set of cops, such as how Flass isn't even around for TDK or how Stephens isn't in TDKR, but yes, if you look closely you will not see Ramirez as well. She booked it after she was caught by Dent.

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We have to fill in the blanks for them, but Crane, who was wrapped up in TDK is back (not even as Scarecrow) and . . . Fredericks?
Nice little returns that shouldn't be such a bothersome.

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But Batman was just up there on the roof with Gordon, telling him to give him five minutes alone to see what was up, clearly checking before barging in (which was a mistake with the GCPD before, Batman learned from his previous encounter that, "it's never that simple", he was right).

I can't remember exactly, but I swear the SWAT guys hear Gordon and they're making confused faces. They would think it's Batman?

I mean, hahahaha, doesn't Gordon even say, "Harvey, where's my family?" on the phone? Gordon just said a minute ago that he NEEDED TO SAVE DENT, when Batman went down to investigate. It was common knowledge that everyone thought Dent was down there with the hospital hostages.



Then sure, Batman attacked the SWAT team, but nobody realized what he had done once they discovered that clowns were hostages and hospital employees were the thugs? Not even after Batman left them a DANGLING, Joker? I swear I'm not looking too far into this, the events of TDKR are just ridiculous after you watch TDK.
The idea of Batman kidnapping them BEFORE he's on that roof shouldn't be too extreme to think of. Especially if he's now considered as a "murderous thug".

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Old 03-08-2013, 12:38 PM   #173
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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What about all the loose ends and holes in the lie that wouldn't even make the Dent Act or Harvey Dent Day possible?

Gordon even says, "you can't just sweep that up", but it took 8 years, a coat pocketed letter that states the truth, conveniently found by a new baddy that everyone just automatically trusts (who's to say that Gordon even wrote that letter) before the truth comes to light? No Coleman Reese, the man who knew the identity of the most wanted man in Gotham after Joker (Batman)? No Ramirez, the person who survived Dent's killing spree? No eye witnesses? Those SWAT guys don't find it funny when they hear Dent talking to Gordon on the roof and Gordon leaves while Batman is there protecting hostages from being shot at? I mean no investigations happened? The city would want Batman's BLOOD wouldn't they? He killed Harvey Dent, the guy that just so happens to be so crucial and so good to the cities well being (despite the mob being a non-issue by the Dark Knight's third act anyway).

It's not like a real life conspiracy that we see on the news everyday. So many people are involved that it would never work. I mean it does, TDKR's existence proves that, but is it really faithful to what The Dark Knight establishes? Is it a true sequel or a what if. I mean it's telling that the most important forces and occurrences are done away with completely. The 8 year jump seems like a way of hoping that your audience won't notice (forget about what happened before, this is now, who the heck is the Joker? LOOK we brought back the League of Shadows!), especially when you jump in with "Harvey Dent Day".
It just goes back to the fact that TDKR's job wasn't just to be a sequel to TDK, but a sequel to BB AND TDK...which are two very different films. I think it's emotionally more of a sequel to TDK, while plot-wise it's more of a sequel to BB.

To the same extent that you're saying the coverup was brushed over, you could argue that the LOS was brushed over and ignored in TDK. I mean Gotham had its entire water supply poisoned, all of Arkham's inmates were freed and their best lead on who carried out the attack is a single psychiatrist at Arkham when it's obvious it had to be a huge operation? Maybe that's bigger than the GCPD and maybe the CIA are looking into it....but my point is, TDK took a huge detour from all this stuff to focus on the next thematically relevant idea. Just like TDKR does in the aftermath of TDK. In both cases I feel we're spared all the boring, tedious stuff of tying up all the rather small loose ends from the third act of the previous film. And TDKR manages to flesh out the LOS/Ra's in a way that makes the saga feel more complete.

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Old 03-08-2013, 12:50 PM   #174
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Okay, cool.



No past police officer from BB is in TDKR.



Each film had their own set of cops, such as how Flass isn't even around for TDK or how Stephens isn't in TDKR, but yes, if you look closely you will not see Ramirez as well. She booked it after she was caught by Dent.



Nice little returns that shouldn't be such a bothersome.



The idea of Batman kidnapping them BEFORE he's on that roof shouldn't be too extreme to think of. Especially if he's now considered as a "murderous thug".


What happened to Flass though? He tried to gun down a kid under the hallucination and was knocked out. I don't think he'd be coming back.

Stephens? He survived.

And how do we know Ramirez booked? Just because she isn't in a a few second montage scene? What if she's behind Stephens, the only real cop you see other than Gordon amidst all those reporters and media people. Maybe she didn't go up there because she didn't want to get wet? Maybe she was visiting her mom? We know what happened to Gordon's family (who knew, I'm surprised Jimmy Gordon didn't spill the beans, wouldn't that have made for nice conflict instead of a written speech?), why not Ramirez, she was just as crucial, she made the call and was deeply sorry about it.



And the SWATs would think Batman kidnapped the Gordon's prior to the siege (where Batman saved everyone) and Harvey would call and tell Gordon that Batman kidnapped him? The guy that is supposed to be in there? The guy who was supposedly kidnapped by the Joker himself.

That's nuts. A random kid character, written into the events that's a cop 8 years later thought there was something fishy about that "night 8 years ago, where I mention SWATS being taken down by Batman, but not clown hostages or the Joker" (what's up with that by the way), but highly trained cops don't question it? Nobody questions it, even pro-Batman supporters? That's crazy.


Hell, Mayor Garcia KNEW that Dent was no where to be found, certainly not with the Joker. What did Batman do to get the "murderous thug" label? Oh, that's right, he killed Harvey Dent and I guess those other people that Dent really killed. How did they find Dent? With the suit he wore at the time of Rache's Dent, certainly not his hospital gown like the other hostages. How about that pistol (though Gordon probably confiscated it, couldn't it be traced back as Dent's gun from the victims, or as Joker's gun, hmmmmm).
Who are all the people that died? Dirty cops, possibly Maroni. Witnesses? Cell phone calls (used a lot).


No investigations? I would have loved to have seen Gordon explain all this or try and shoot down any attack/man hunt on Batman. Or even the Joker spilling the beans (which, why wouldn't he do that at his obvious trial?).

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Old 03-08-2013, 12:54 PM   #175
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

I voted for Michelle.

I'll put it this way...Jack Nicholson defined how many people saw the joker for nearly 20 years...and Ledger came and overshadowed that. That's how powerful his performance was as Joker.

I liked Anne's Catwoman, but I don't feel like she toppled Michelle's take at all. In fact, I'm pretty sure that if I walked down the street and asked people which Catwoman was better, it would be a toss up. If I went down the street and asked which Joker was better, most would probably say Heath.

Either way, I liked Newmar's Catwoman the best, and I kinda hate that most people seem to think of Eartha when they think of the 60's Catwoman.

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