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Old 03-17-2013, 12:13 PM   #301
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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I am curious to hear people's personal opinions on this. I would like everyone to answer this question as honestly as possible.

Whether or not you liked the idea of a closed ending with Bruce quitting and whether or not you thought Nolan did it well, did you personally want a closed ending or would you have preferred a more open ending with Bruce still being Batman by the end?

Just want to hear other people's thoughts.
I wouldn't want to see any hero having a closure kind of ending all the time, but it was nice to see it happen for once and with Bruce Wayne no less who never gets a happy ending.

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Old 03-17-2013, 12:21 PM   #302
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

I definitely went into the film wanting a concrete ending for Bruce. I felt it wouldn't be right for the story they had been telling if he was still Batman at the end of it. It was always a tossup between death and retirement for me.

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Old 03-17-2013, 12:25 PM   #303
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I wouldn't want to see any hero having a closure kind of ending all the time, but it was nice to see it happen for once and with Bruce Wayne no less who never gets a happy ending.
That doesn't really answer my question. Saying that it was nice to see it happen are essentially your thoughts on it after seeing the movie.

Perhaps I should clarify my question: Before you saw the movie, when nobody knew whether or not there would be an open or closed ending, did you personally wish to get an open or a closed ending going into the movie?

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Old 03-17-2013, 12:40 PM   #304
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That doesn't really answer my question. Saying that it was nice to see it happen are essentially your thoughts on it after seeing the movie.

Perhaps I should clarify my question: Before you saw the movie, when nobody knew whether or not there would be an open or closed ending, did you personally wish to get an open or a closed ending going into the movie?
I did answer the question. I always wanted it to happen once, to see someone "go there" and not by killing the hero, but by giving a hero a happy ending after knowing so well that superheroes are always given tragedies in their lives. Just one time would be enough and I have this one time which quite frankly worked as you got hints of something in the making even in the first installment of Nolan's trilogy.

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Old 03-17-2013, 12:42 PM   #305
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One of the things I actually feared most for this movie was a "Bruce is Batman forever" ending which IMO would have been a total copout after billing this as the "Epic Conclusion". I went in this film looking for closure. If it had ended on a note of Bruce being Batman forever I would have just been incredibly frustrated with Nolan for teasing us and leaving me wanting more sequels. The Blake/Robin ending didn't leave me wanting a sequel, but was a great notion to end the story on. Bruce grows beyond his personal unhealthy need for Batman while ensuring the everlasting legacy of it for a city that may need a watchful protector again some day. Couldn't have asked for a more satisfying ending. Perfect blend of light and dark, optimistic and cynical. Totally Batman.

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Old 03-17-2013, 12:52 PM   #306
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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One of the things I actually feared most for this movie was a "Bruce is Batman forever" ending which IMO would have been a total copout after billing this as the "Epic Conclusion". I went in this film looking for closure. If it had ended on a note of Bruce being Batman forever I would have just been incredibly frustrated with Nolan for teasing us and leaving me wanting more sequels. The Blake/Robin ending didn't leave me wanting a sequel, but was a great notion to end the story on. Bruce grows beyond his personal unhealthy need for Batman while ensuring the everlasting legacy of it for a city that may need a watchful protector again some day. Couldn't have asked for a more satisfying ending. Perfect blend of light and dark, optimistic and cynical. Totally Batman.
Great post. Totally agree.

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Old 03-17-2013, 02:03 PM   #307
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One of the things I actually feared most for this movie was a "Bruce is Batman forever" ending which IMO would have been a total copout after billing this as the "Epic Conclusion". I went in this film looking for closure. If it had ended on a note of Bruce being Batman forever I would have just been incredibly frustrated with Nolan for teasing us and leaving me wanting more sequels. The Blake/Robin ending didn't leave me wanting a sequel, but was a great notion to end the story on. Bruce grows beyond his personal unhealthy need for Batman while ensuring the everlasting legacy of it for a city that may need a watchful protector again some day. Couldn't have asked for a more satisfying ending. Perfect blend of light and dark, optimistic and cynical. Totally Batman.
Here is where I take issue with that. To me (and other people on the internet have told me this too), BB and TDK never felt like they were ever part of a finite trilogy. Since they both made a big deal out of the fact that this was the "young Batman" at the start of his career, the first two movies to me always felt like the first 2 stories in an ongoing franchise. I am not saying that this should've been an ongoing franchise but that I could naturally picture so many more stories that take place in this universe even if Batman 3 would've been the last of the franchise. Whether or not WB would've had the decency to respect Nolan's wishes and do a reboot instead of milking his franchise is another topic altogether.

I may get a lot of flak for this but I really feel that TDKR shoved the whole "Epic conclusion to the epic trilogy!" thing down people's throats and tries to pretend like this was always intended to be a three-act trilogy since day 1 when that is just false. Nolan himself, though he did have some basic ideas in his head for every movie, said after every movie he made that he wasn't sure whether or not he wanted to come back. He wasn't even sure if he was going to come back for Batman 3 since he didn't have a story. He was also originally unsure whether or not his he would've gave Batman 3 an open or closed ending since when he was asked after TDK about whether or not he would bring in Robin for future films, he said that even if he were to do Robin he wouldn't appear for "a few more films" because his version of Batman was still very young and at the start of his career (and also this goes back to what I was about BB & TDK in previous paragraph). It really wasn't until production on TDKR started when the whole "This is the epic conclusion to this epic three-act trilogy!" came along.

The trilogy does not feel like a natural trilogy to me in the same way Star Wars and LOTR do so the whole "epic conclusion" thing really felt forced to me . In fact, I wouldn't be too surprised if the 8-year gap was just there so that Nolan could contrive a story that took place later in the franchise's timeline so that ending the film series could be more justifiable (he couldn't just end it with Bruce being Batman for about a year + few months). I feel that the only reason Nolan had a closed ending to begin with was because he didn't want to do any more movies after TDKR and did not want WB to touch his franchise. And while I would've really hated to see WB milk the franchise and turn it into crap, I don't think Nolan is any better by forcing an ending to a franchise where it doesn't naturally fit. What Nolan did with TDKR is essentially the same thing as what Jeph Loeb did with Season 2 of Avengers EMH in my honest opinion.

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Old 03-17-2013, 02:06 PM   #308
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

As someone who wanted a "Finality" to the movie, I was pretty apathetic about Nolan's execution of Bruce's ending.

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Old 03-17-2013, 02:10 PM   #309
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Lack of Batman in this movie.

For the last Christopher Nolan Batman film. There should been a hell lot more Batman in this movie. Retired for 8 years is lame. He could have said he was tried from fighting Poison Ivy, Riddler, Killer Croc and other villains even if Christopher Nolan would have never put them in his movies.
Batman sitting around doing nothing for 8 years? Really?
Again, make the deal with the government instead of the Dent Act and substitute Rachel with Jason Todd. Still have a problem with it?

And there is tons of Batman, he's in most of the movie. You're talking about a costume, not a character. A superficial rubber suit rather than the character beneath it.

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Old 03-17-2013, 02:20 PM   #310
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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Here is where I take issue with that. To me (and other people on the internet have told me this too), BB and TDK never felt like they were ever part of a finite trilogy. Since they both made a big deal out of the fact that this was the "young Batman" at the start of his career, the first two movies to me always felt like the first 2 stories in an ongoing franchise. I am not saying that this should've been an ongoing franchise but that I could naturally picture so many more stories that take place in this universe even if Batman 3 would've been the last of the franchise. Whether or not WB would've had the decency to respect Nolan's wishes and do a reboot instead of milking his franchise is another topic altogether.

I may get a lot of flak for this but I really feel that TDKR shoved the whole "Epic conclusion to the epic trilogy!" thing down people's throats and tries to pretend like this was always intended to be a three-act trilogy since day 1 when that is just false. Nolan himself, though he did have some basic ideas in his head for every movie, said after every movie he made that he wasn't sure whether or not he wanted to come back. He wasn't even sure if he was going to come back for Batman 3 since he didn't have a story. He was also originally unsure whether or not his he would've gave Batman 3 an open or closed ending since when he was asked after TDK about whether or not he would bring in Robin for future films, he said that even if he were to do Robin he wouldn't appear for "a few more films" because his version of Batman was still very young and at the start of his career (and also this goes back to what I was about BB & TDK in previous paragraph). It really wasn't until production on TDKR started when the whole "This is the epic conclusion to this epic three-act trilogy!" came along.

The trilogy does not feel like a natural trilogy to me in the same way Star Wars and LOTR do so the whole "epic conclusion" thing really felt forced to me . In fact, I wouldn't be too surprised if the 8-year gap was just there so that Nolan could contrive a story that took place later in the franchise's timeline so that ending the film series could be more justifiable (he couldn't just end it with Bruce being Batman for about a year + few months). I feel that the only reason Nolan had a closed ending to begin with was because he didn't want to do any more movies after TDKR and did not want WB to touch his franchise. And while I would've really hated to see WB milk the franchise and turn it into crap, I don't think Nolan is any better by forcing an ending to a franchise where it doesn't naturally fit. What Nolan did with TDKR is essentially the same thing as what Jeph Loeb did with Season 2 of Avengers EMH in my honest opinion.
All I can say is I disagree. BB was the classic hero's journey. And when it came out I immediately viewed TDK as "The Empire Strikes Back" of the saga. It just felt like that dark middle chapter with heightened drama where everything goes to hell for our heroes and good doesn't truly triumph in the end. It was a full-on tragedy and very much like the second act of a play. There was a redemption story waiting to be told to give it the true emotional finality it needed to fulfill the promise of the first film.

Heck, I even thought the Bat-pod flipping the semi-truck with the cable was a blatant nod to Luke taking down the AT-AT in Empire. So yeah, I always felt in my heart that this was meant as a trilogy. Nolan even says in the Art and Making of the Dark Knight Trilogy book that they had to figure out what the shape of Bruce's journey would be before even writing Begins, and that was by design a three-part structure. Only Nolan didn't want to get too bogged down in plotting out the specifics of the whole story because he wanted to live and breathe the story along with Bruce. That's why he focused on one film at a time. But the blueprint for a three-part tale was always there from the beginning.

The difference between this and Star Wars and LOTR, and pretty much most trilogies that are out there is that it each film tackles a different genre. I'd call it the most genre-bending trilogy ever made that focuses on a single set of characters (not counting "thematic" trilogies).

Oh, and let's be honest. A lot of stuff changed throughout the making of Star Wars. Lucas likes to play revisionist and act like it was all planned out from the start, but that's BS. Obi-Wan's death was changed last minute to occur ANH to give the movie more of an emotional kick. Therefore Yoda had to be created for ESB in order to continue Luke's training. That's just a small example, but that story was shaped along the way too. But the general idea of the son redeeming the father was the connective tissue. Very similar to how TDKT was shaped actually. Core ideas with the details fleshed out along the way.

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Old 03-17-2013, 02:40 PM   #311
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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As someone who wanted a "Finality" to the movie, I was pretty apathetic about Nolan's execution of Bruce's ending.
You really hated Bruce ending up happy ever after with Selina didn't you, Batsy? It should have been you and I doing battle forever!

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Old 03-17-2013, 02:51 PM   #312
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

Also...I have no idea where to post this, so I'm just gonna post it here.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


Just wait for the end...cracks me the F up

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Old 03-17-2013, 04:03 PM   #313
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Again, make the deal with the government instead of the Dent Act and substitute Rachel with Jason Todd. Still have a problem with it?
Yes because it isn't that simple. TDK Returns and TDK Rises are two completely different stories with two completely different Batmen that quit for completely different reasons and deal with their retirement in completely different ways and the world around them is affected by this in completely different ways as well. That and TDK Returns is not a story about a worn out retired Batman that is a sequel to a story that was all about a young Batman who still didn't have everything completely figured out yet.

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All I can say is I disagree. BB was the classic hero's journey. And when it came out I immediately viewed TDK as "The Empire Strikes Back" of the saga. It just felt like that dark middle chapter with heightened drama where everything goes to hell for our heroes and good doesn't truly triumph in the end. It was a full-on tragedy and very much like the second act of a play. There was a redemption story waiting to be told to give it the true emotional finality it needed to fulfill the promise of the first film.

Heck, I even thought the Bat-pod flipping the semi-truck with the cable was a blatant nod to Luke taking down the AT-AT in Empire. So yeah, I always felt in my heart that this was meant as a trilogy. Nolan even says in the Art and Making of the Dark Knight Trilogy book that they had to figure out what the shape of Bruce's journey would be before even writing Begins, and that was by design a three-part structure. Only Nolan didn't want to get too bogged down in plotting out the specifics of the whole story because he wanted to live and breathe the story along with Bruce. That's why he focused on one film at a time. But the blueprint for a three-part tale was always there from the beginning.

The difference between this and Star Wars and LOTR, and pretty much most trilogies that are out there is that it each film tackles a different genre. I'd call it the most genre-bending trilogy ever made that focuses on a single set of characters (not counting "thematic" trilogies).
I respect that then and I mean no disrespect to you when saying this but you happen to be in a small minority. Prior to Nolan coming back for TDKR, the view on BB and TDK were that they were movies 1 & 2 out of the current franchise. The speculation that it was going to end after the third movie was just like the current speculation that Nolan's Batman will show up in the Justice League movie and was just that - speculation. And it was also speculation purely on the fact that Nolan said there weren't a lot of superhero franchises with good movies past the second one. There was in fact more speculation that the franchise would continue. No one really knew they outcome including WB & Nolan himself (I'll address the Nolan part in a sec). WB since came out and said they were hoping for 7 Batman movies overall in the current franchise. Overall, the general belief by everyone was that it was the first movies in the current franchise, not trilogy. Now like I said, I personally didn't want a franchise that long either but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't until production started on TDKR when the Nolan production crew and WB decided that this would a trilogy and not a franchise.

As for what Nolan said, first of all I'm really interested in reading that book since I good things about it. Second, I personally don't trust his word anymore post TDKR production due to all the contradictions I heard from him and other people in the production crew. There's many examples I can think of but let's go back to the Robin example from my last post. He said that Robin would not appear anytime soon because Bale was portraying a young Batman at the start of his career which meant that, in Nolan's own words, Robin wouldn't appear for "a few more films". "A few more films" yet now he apparently always planned for this to be a trilogy, no questions asked. That quote implies that while he didn't necessarily want multiple movies, he was open to the idea as the future of the franchise could go either way. Then there is either Goyer or Jonathan Nolan (can't remember which) one of the things that would've happened in the next film's story was that Batman the police would've looked for Batman anywhere he is and Batman had to avoid them at all cost whenever he was out (or something like that). There is also the fact that Goyer specifically said that the next main villain will not be a villain that was done before in live-action and Nolan himself even said that he doesn't want to do Catwoman. There's more examples that I can't remember off the top of my head but my overall point remains that I cannot take Nolan's word post TDKR. I can't really be sure what was planned from the beginning and what he changed his mind on.

As for the three-part tale act, first of all, that doesn't mean one tale per movie. It can be seen throughout more movies or even in one movie. Jon Favreau described Tony's story in Iron Man as being a story comprised of 3 separate parts that built his character and journey throughout the movie. Second of all, I never argued that Nolan had no plan for Bruce's character throughout the franchise and that every movie would be "He fights [insert villain] then the end". I argued that he changed Bruce's character in the third movie from what he originally planned Bruce to deal with/be like and that his character there does not naturally go together with his character in BB & TDK. And third, just because you have a three-part tale for a superhero's journey and one tale per every movie does not necessarily mean you will end the franchise at 3. The current Spider-Man franchise is a good example of that.


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Old 03-17-2013, 04:28 PM   #314
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I was pretty confident that Nolan wouldn't kill Bruce. The way they were marketing "The legend ends" I felt it was too on the nose. But had he killed Bruce, I wouldn't have minded. But honestly I'm glad he didn't. Seeing Bruce have a finite conclusion, faking his death like in The Dark Knight Returns, the Batman statue being erected as a tribute to the man; the symbol that saved Gotham time after time, truly hit the emotional beats I had wanted for the end of the trilogy.

Now when I had heard about the cafe scene a few days before I saw the film, I didn't quite know how to digest that Bruce and Selina would actually end up together. So when I first saw the film and it cut to the cafe scene I was left a little cold. I went back home, thought about it and saw the film again nearly a week later, and when that scene played out again I was nothing but happy with it.

The 8 year gap was fine by me. It truly gave Gotham this ghostly feeling at the beginning. You felt the time had passed since the chaos of the first two films, especially the events of TDK. And when Bruce finally suited up and made his return as Batman it just really clicked for me. It gave Batman this mythical and legendary feeling. Even the scene where Blake goes to the orphanage and talks to the kid and he's drawing the chalk symbols and asks Blake if Batman will ever come back. I just get chills when that ghostly rendition of the two note horn Batman motif plays during that scene.

Only thing I wish is that it was clearly stated that Bruce had been Batman for at least a few years after TDK ended, up until the Dent Act kicked in. But besides that, I pretty much championed the 8 year gap going into TDKR. The premise is not without it's faults, but I feel it really pays off in the end, IMO.

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Old 03-17-2013, 04:29 PM   #315
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Yup, exactly Shika.


There's no way in 2004 or 2007 Nolan and Co had "trilogies" on their mind. Especially when Nolan always stated that he "focuses on one film at a time and utilized all the best ideas for one film".

He even stated that the card reveal at the end of Begins wasn't exactly sequel bait, but a way of showing the start of Batman's career and mythology.

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Old 03-17-2013, 04:58 PM   #316
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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I am curious to hear people's personal opinions on this. I would like everyone to answer this question as honestly as possible.

Whether or not you liked the idea of a closed ending with Bruce quitting and whether or not you thought Nolan did it well, did you personally want a closed ending or would you have preferred a more open ending with Bruce still being Batman by the end?

Just want to hear other people's thoughts.
Good question. I honestly feel this is the root problem for a lot of the hostility in the fan community, which is much more critical of TDKR than...well the critics--who by and large liked, if not loved it--much less general moviegoers.

I am not saying TDKR does not have flaws (it rushes through Bane's tyranny of Gotham far too quickly, Talia's death is on the weak side, etc.), but I think this is the main reason fans are unhappy. It may not have been as good as TDK, but it is also almost a blasphemous reversal of the entire concept of comic book storytelling, which is infinitely in a reflexive status quo.

Because films must be by their nature finite in their storytelling techniques, as well as Nolan's intent on grounding Batman as much into the illusion of "reality" as possible, I am very open to it. In terms of the comic book character, I do not think a happy ending would work as well. But the way Nolan crafted his story, it fit like a glove and is almost preferable to me than the usual staple of keep going until the franchise gets tired and it ends on a truly horrendous note (B&R, Superman IV/Superman Returns, X-Men: The Last Stand as I see XFC as a soft-reboot, Indiana Jones 4, etc.).

Also, the idea of putting Batman in a world that is at least reminicent to our own must have a logical conclusion. I think Nolan's worked quite well. I think The Dark Knight Returns is a much better story than The Dark Knight Rises (though TDKSA is not), but I much prefer Nolan's view of the character than the neo-fascist Miller created as his protagonist (which is all of them). In this context, it worked quite well.

But Nolan not only ending the story, but also saying that Bruce Wayne must outgrow his anger as Batman? That is a huge departure and one that may not sit well with many comic fans. Still, I embrace the idea.

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Old 03-17-2013, 05:07 PM   #317
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Here is where I take issue with that. To me (and other people on the internet have told me this too), BB and TDK never felt like they were ever part of a finite trilogy. Since they both made a big deal out of the fact that this was the "young Batman" at the start of his career, the first two movies to me always felt like the first 2 stories in an ongoing franchise. I am not saying that this should've been an ongoing franchise but that I could naturally picture so many more stories that take place in this universe even if Batman 3 would've been the last of the franchise. Whether or not WB would've had the decency to respect Nolan's wishes and do a reboot instead of milking his franchise is another topic altogether.

I may get a lot of flak for this but I really feel that TDKR shoved the whole "Epic conclusion to the epic trilogy!" thing down people's throats and tries to pretend like this was always intended to be a three-act trilogy since day 1 when that is just false. Nolan himself, though he did have some basic ideas in his head for every movie, said after every movie he made that he wasn't sure whether or not he wanted to come back. He wasn't even sure if he was going to come back for Batman 3 since he didn't have a story. He was also originally unsure whether or not his he would've gave Batman 3 an open or closed ending since when he was asked after TDK about whether or not he would bring in Robin for future films, he said that even if he were to do Robin he wouldn't appear for "a few more films" because his version of Batman was still very young and at the start of his career (and also this goes back to what I was about BB & TDK in previous paragraph). It really wasn't until production on TDKR started when the whole "This is the epic conclusion to this epic three-act trilogy!" came along.

The trilogy does not feel like a natural trilogy to me in the same way Star Wars and LOTR do so the whole "epic conclusion" thing really felt forced to me . In fact, I wouldn't be too surprised if the 8-year gap was just there so that Nolan could contrive a story that took place later in the franchise's timeline so that ending the film series could be more justifiable (he couldn't just end it with Bruce being Batman for about a year + few months). I feel that the only reason Nolan had a closed ending to begin with was because he didn't want to do any more movies after TDKR and did not want WB to touch his franchise. And while I would've really hated to see WB milk the franchise and turn it into crap, I don't think Nolan is any better by forcing an ending to a franchise where it doesn't naturally fit. What Nolan did with TDKR is essentially the same thing as what Jeph Loeb did with Season 2 of Avengers EMH in my honest opinion.
I can see that point. I do think there naturally is at least one story between TDK and TDKR. One in which we see Batman dealing with the direct fall out of Dent's death and the city overcome the freaks and mob that ends with the city apparently no longer needing Batman.

However, it would have likely been structurally somewhat similar to TDK without Joker or Dent who both gave that movie so much heft and weight. And in all honesty, Nolan seemed a bit tired of the Batman staples at the beginning of TDKR before he starts interacting with Catwoman and, of course, Bane in costume. Look at teh way Nolan almost speeds through the fighting on the rooftop and in the sewers pre-Bane beatdown.

I do not think he had it in him to turn this into a 4 or 5 film story, though there was the room. So yes, I do not think TDKR, which is a fine ending to his vision, needed to be the third story. It could have been the fourth or fifth. But I understand and respect an artist already a bit burned out after spending a combined 6-8 years of his life making Batman movies. So, while I wish there was one or two more middle chapters to connect the end of TDK with the beginning of TDKR, I think as an ending TDKR works fine.

If you are saying is there a story or two we skipped to get in the ending? Sure, I totally see that.

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Old 03-17-2013, 05:08 PM   #318
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I respect that then and I mean no disrespect to you when saying this but you happen to be in a small minority. Prior to Nolan coming back for TDKR, the view on BB and TDK were that they were movies 1 & 2 out of the current franchise. The speculation that it was going to end after the third movie was just like the current speculation that Nolan's Batman will show up in the Justice League movie and was just that - speculation.
It's cool, I respect your opinion too but how sure are you that your opinion reflects the majority's? Everyone I know (general audience types, not hardcore Bat-fans) was discussing the third Batman film in the context of it closing out a trilogy back even before we knew anything about it. Even if that meant a trilogy that might have an open-ending and allowed other filmmakers to continue from. It was such a big question as to whether or not Nolan would even come back for a third, that it seemed most people assumed he would do a third and final film. Would that not make it a trilogy? If he was only going to make one last movie, it stands to reason that he would make it a conclusion he would be satisfied with enough to walk away. I mean, Star Wars is now continuing its story beyond ROTJ but that doesn't make the OT any less of a trilogy.


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And it was also speculation purely on the fact that Nolan said there weren't a lot of superhero franchises with good movies past the second one. There was in fact more speculation that the franchise would continue. No one really knew they outcome including WB & Nolan himself (I'll address the Nolan part in a sec). WB since came out and said they were hoping for 7 Batman movies overall in the current franchise. Overall, the general belief by everyone was that it was the first movies in the current franchise, not trilogy. Now like I said, I personally didn't want a franchise that long either but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't until production started on TDKR when the Nolan production crew and WB decided that this would a trilogy and not a franchise.

As for what Nolan said, first of all I'm really interested in reading that book since I good things about it. Second, I personally don't trust his word anymore post TDKR production due to all the contradictions I heard from him and other people in the production crew. There's many examples I can think of but let's go back to the Robin example from my last post. He said that Robin would not appear anytime soon because Bale was portraying a young Batman at the start of his career which meant that, in Nolan's own words, Robin wouldn't appear for "a few more films". "A few more films" yet now he apparently always planned for this to be a trilogy, no questions asked. That quote implies that while he didn't necessarily want multiple movies, he was open to the idea as the future of the franchise could go either way. Then there is either Goyer or Jonathan Nolan (can't remember which) one of the things that would've happened in the next film's story was that Batman the police would've looked for Batman anywhere he is and Batman had to avoid them at all cost whenever he was out (or something like that).
Regarding the bold, I've already asked if you can provide a link for this because I simply think that is untrue or hearsay. I don't recall either Goyer or Jonah saying the next film would be about Batman being hunted by the police, nor do I remember them spilling anything specific about what the third film might be post TDK.

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There is also the fact that Goyer specifically said that the next main villain will not be a villain that was done before in live-action and Nolan himself even said that he doesn't want to do Catwoman. There's more examples that I can't remember off the top of my head but my overall point remains that I cannot take Nolan's word post TDKR. I can't really be sure what was planned from the beginning and what he changed his mind on.
What Goyer actually said was that the Batman rogues gallery was vast and that a lot of them could fit into the "realistic" tone they had established. He also noted how Ra's and Scarecrow were villains never before seen on the TV show and they used them for Batman Begins. It was more about not just using the "A list" villains that were known from the TV show.

http://www.batman-on-film.com/TDK_ju...an_7-3-08.html

It has since come out that he had already honed in on Bane right around the time TDK was released. Of course, yes Bane was used before in the movies (but arguably it was SO bad and wrong that it doesn't count). He may have also been referencing Talia when talking about big characters from the comics that haven't been used yet.

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As for the three-part tale act, first of all, that doesn't mean one tale per movie. It can be seen throughout more movies or even in one movie. Jon Favreau described Tony's story in Iron Man as being a story comprised of 3 separate parts that built his character and journey throughout the movie. Second of all, I never argued that Nolan had no plan for Bruce's character throughout the franchise and that every movie would be "He fights [insert villain] then the end". I argued that he changed Bruce's character in the third movie from what he originally planned Bruce to deal with/be like and that his character there does not naturally go together with his character in BB & TDK. And third, just because you have a three-part tale for a superhero's journey and one tale per every movie does not necessarily mean you will end the franchise at 3. The current Spider-Man franchise is a good example of that.
I think a lot of what you're saying reflects the increase in clout at WB Nolan attained from 2008-2010. Maybe at one point he felt unsure if he'd really be allowed to keep it contained to a 3-part story due to Batman being such a viable franchise for the studio. He knew they'd want to milk it. In that sense it's understandable why he'd be hesitant to do a third if there was a chance he couldn't end things on his own terms. Knowing the way Nolan tends to work, would he have really be interested in doing a kinda/sorta "ending" (ala Spider-Man 3) that ultimately just serves to tee up an entirely new set of films set in his version of Gotham? I think we all knew Nolan better than that by that point in time. Especially when you get into the prospect of other filmmakers recasting Heath's Joker, etc. I think it simply made the most sense for him creatively to put a period on the thing.

But with the enormous success of TDK, and then Inception, he had earned enough clout to basically do whatever he wanted. WB knew how much the stock of his name had gone up and understood how important it was that he return for a third film. I think most fans who were paying attention observed this shift, and understood that Nolan now had the ability to end the story pretty much any way he wanted, which made the prospect of a true trilogy closer an exciting uncharted territory for a comic book franchise. Hence the rampant speculation that Batman would die in the film.

I think the view of it being an ongoing franchise was largely wiped away the moment Nolan did that interview with Geoff Boucher where he said he wasn't interested in "infinitely blowing up the balloon". This was long before any advertisement of it being the "Epic Conclusion" even came into play- it was before Inception even came out. I think we as fans had quite a long time to process the likelihood that this was going to lean more towards a closed ending.

I personally think a lot of the franchise expectation has to do with the ongoing and infinite nature of the comic books. But I never viewed Nolan's vision as simply the comic books. I viewed them as snapshots of the key ideas and characters from various books, presented as a purely cinematic epic. And epics tend to come in threes.

That's why it was okay for me for Bruce to be forced into retirement as a result of his sacrifice in TDK. It didn't negate TDK's ending for me. That remains a beautiful snapshot of what Batman is all about. He did what was needed because no one else could, at the expense of his own soul even. Because he cared that much about keeping hope alive for Gotham.

So what happens? Gotham gets better (on the surface) as Bruce deteriorates internally. It's still a logical progression from the end of TDK. Batman never said "I must be Batman forever". That's just how some might've fans read it, again due to the fact that he's eternally Batman in the comics. The moment still exists as a "snapshot" of that idea though, just like the eternal nature of the Batman/Joker conflict gets its "snapshot" in the "we're destined to do this forever" line. But if you look at the ending, Batman just said, "I'm whatever Gotham needs me to be." That means he will adapt himself to whatever circumstance requires him to in order to help Gotham. They just configured the story so the sacrifice would actually work and Gotham no longer needed Batman. So by staying away he's being true to his word of being whatever Gotham needs him to be. Just because it's not what was expected, doesn't mean it contradicts what came before.

And fast forwarding 8 years actually pays respect to how good and satisfying an ending TDK was by giving it room to breathe and having it actually affect change in Gotham.

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Old 03-17-2013, 05:18 PM   #319
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Yup, exactly Shika.
There's no way in 2004 or 2007 Nolan and Co had "trilogies" on their mind. Especially when Nolan always stated that he "focuses on one film at a time and utilized all the best ideas for one film".
I think this quote from Nolan (a foreword in the TDK Trilogy book) seems like a pretty sincere reflection of his perspective of their creative process:

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People ask if we’d always planned a trilogy. This is like being asked whether you had planned on growing up, getting married, having kids. The answer is complicated. When David and I first started cracking open Bruce’s story, we flirted with what might come after, then backed away, not wanting to look too deep into the future. I didn’t want to know everything that Bruce couldn’t; I wanted to live it with him. I told David and Jonah to put everything they knew into each film as we made it. The entire cast and crew put all they had into the first film. Nothing held back. Nothing saved for next time. They built an entire city. Then Christian and Michael and Gary and Morgan and Liam and Cillian started living in it. Christian bit off a big chunk of Bruce Wayne’s life and made it utterly compelling. He took us into a pop icon’s mind and never let us notice for an instant the fanciful nature of Bruce’s methods.
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I never thought we’d do a third—are there any great second sequels? But I kept wondering about the end of Bruce’s journey, and once David and I discovered it, I had to see it for myself. We had come back to what we had barely dared whisper about in those first days in my garage. We had been making a trilogy. I called everyone back together for another tour of Gotham. Four years later, it was still there. It even seemed a little cleaner, a little more polished. Wayne Manor had been rebuilt. Familiar faces were back—a little older, a little wiser . . . but not all was as it seemed.

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Old 03-17-2013, 05:34 PM   #320
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Batman sitting around doing nothing for 8 years? Really?
After being declared a murderer of 6 people, Dent included?

Pretty hard to continue fighting crime when every time you step out the entire police force is on your ass like ***** on Velcro.

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Old 03-17-2013, 05:57 PM   #321
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After being declared a murderer of 6 people, Dent included?

Pretty hard to continue fighting crime when every time you step out the entire police force is on your ass like ***** on Velcro.
But it's ok to pancake and flip over Cop cars on the highway, and attack a whole SWAT team with bats.

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Old 03-17-2013, 06:02 PM   #322
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But it's ok to pancake and flip over Cop cars on the highway, and attack a whole SWAT team with bats.
Because they can take it because they're not Batman.

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Old 03-17-2013, 06:03 PM   #323
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Because they can take it because they're not Batman.
Is that meant to be humor?

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Old 03-17-2013, 06:07 PM   #324
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You really hated Bruce ending up happy ever after with Selina didn't you, Batsy? It should have been you and I doing battle forever!
Yes, Joker, yes, lol

Honestly, that is part of it. I've said before that I don't think Batman should end up with Selina or Talia or any femme fatale member of the rogues, and the way their relationship unfolded in the movie did nothing to sway me, and I feel that it could've.


As for the rest, I don't really like how Wayne "dies" broke, and I was hoping for a scene of some catharsis regarding Bruce and his Batman persona. As it is, he just fakes his death and goes off to hide. I mean, that in itself is our sign that he's decided to move on, but for me that's not really enough. Also, I didn't like how the last shot of the film is of blake. I mean, most of this is just personal preference, so I can't really say its "bad"...but I can definitely say I don't care for it.

I would've preferred a "B89" type of ending to this, and I think that ending is cliche.

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Old 03-17-2013, 06:12 PM   #325
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Is that meant to be humor?
A pathetic attempt.

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