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Old 03-21-2013, 06:23 PM   #426
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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Originally Posted by Hamill-Joker View Post
Here's my point. People nitpick the idea of Bruce getting back into Gotham in TDKR, which I think is ridiculous considering the acceptance they have had with other things in this series and in the comics.
It depends what things you're talking about. The comics are far more OTT world than Nolan's one.

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In Batman Begins, Bruce is able to live and travel for 7 years without accessing his fortune. And yet suddenly in TDKR, Bruce is helpless to travel because he doesn't have a fortune anymore?
Nobody said he was traveling for for the entirety of those 7 years. It's unspecified how long he spent training with the LOS, or how long he was in that foreign prison. He also joined up with gangs of criminals and was stealing. It was also shown that he would steal food to survive.

You see Begins and TDK give you nuggets of info like that for you to piece together how he survived.

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It is not impossible to get into Gotham. Hell, the government snuck in several special ops guys. So the US Government can sneak in their own agents, but Bruce can't get in?
The special ops guys were placed in there thanks to government connections by putting them in the relief aid trucks. We know how they got in.

We're given no inkling how Bruce managed it.

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The point of the sealed off city is to keep people from getting out of Gotham.
And stopping anyone from getting in, too.

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Old 03-21-2013, 06:30 PM   #427
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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Originally Posted by FeedOnATreeFrog View Post
One of the first things Bruce says when he comes back is "I can give you a way out of the city".

Bruce later tells Selina that the tunnel is her way out.

So do you think maybe that's how he got in?....

Or rather...why would people doubt that he did get in that way considering that's his solution for Selina getting out? Or did people just not think of it?

But showing Bruce coming back through the tunnel before as well....would kind of be redundant...no?
Bruce had Selina clear the tunnel so that people could drive out to the bridge. I don't think he came in that way.

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Old 03-21-2013, 06:50 PM   #428
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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Nobody said he was traveling for 7 years. It's unspecified how long he spent training with the LOS, or how long he was in that foreign prison. He also joined up with gangs of criminals and was stealing. It was also shown that he would steal food to survive.
The at least 7 years thing comes from Bruce being declared dead. You have to be missing for at least 7 years to be legally declared dead.

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Old 03-21-2013, 06:54 PM   #429
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Didn't Alfred even confirm it was seven years in TDKR?

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Old 03-21-2013, 06:58 PM   #430
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The at least 7 years thing comes from Bruce being declared dead. You have to be missing for at least 7 years to be legally declared dead.
No I don't mean that. I know he was gone 7 years. It's stated several times in Begins. I mean we don't know he spent the bulk of those 7 years just traveling around.

He spent time in prison, training with the LOS, joining criminal gangs etc. We don't know how long any of those things lasted.

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Old 03-21-2013, 07:24 PM   #431
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Bruce had Selina clear the tunnel so that people could drive out to the bridge. I don't think he came in that way.
Yup.


There was also an entire deleted sequence of the Bat and Batpod (Catwoman riding) in that exact tunnel that was filmed in Pittsburgh. On the outside, it was LA (where you see the cars stacked up with Catwoman outside). The deleted sequence was a tunnel in Pittsburgh I believe and we would have actually gotten to see them go in through there inter-cut with the actual chase (and Blake with the orphans).

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Old 03-21-2013, 07:54 PM   #432
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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Bruce had Selina clear the tunnel so that people could drive out to the bridge. I don't think he came in that way.
He needed her to make a path for people so that they could leave quickly.

Like kids and stuff who can't climb over cars.

But I'm sure Bruce could have on his way in.

Again, this is his 'way out of the city'. So that's where I assumed his way into the city was.


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Old 03-21-2013, 08:00 PM   #433
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No I don't mean that. I know he was gone 7 years. It's stated several times in Begins. I mean we don't know he spent the bulk of those 7 years just traveling around.

He spent time in prison, training with the LOS, joining criminal gangs etc. We don't know how long any of those things lasted.
OH, I get you now.

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Old 03-21-2013, 09:15 PM   #434
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

From that concept art I'm going with Bruce came back by walking on the frozen ice. It's a shame if they filmed it and didn't leave it in. Forever a plot hole, lol.

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Old 03-21-2013, 09:36 PM   #435
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The at least 7 years thing comes from Bruce being declared dead. You have to be missing for at least 7 years to be legally declared dead.
It's an imaginary city. It could have different laws. Stop nitpicking. It's a movie being interesting.

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Old 03-21-2013, 10:59 PM   #436
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From that concept art I'm going with Bruce came back by walking on the frozen ice. It's a shame if they filmed it and didn't leave it in. Forever a plot hole, lol.
To some. It's not a plot hole when you just think about how Bruce was trained as a ninja as well as how easy the Special Forces got in Gotham, lol.

BB and TDK both left hints of how Batman gets around so mysteriously either by seeing how Bruce is trained as a ninja or how easy he found Harvey Dent twice without the audience knowing how.

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Old 03-21-2013, 11:06 PM   #437
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Yeah, I actually have more trouble rationalizing how he found Dent with Schiff in TDK than I do him getting back to Gotham. At least when he finds Dent with Gordon's family at the end, Gordon had already radioed in the police, and we saw that Bruce was able to listen to police frequencies in his cowl earlier in the film. But the Dent/Schiff thing was completely off the grid. Only real explanation there is "He's Batman". Which is okay with me.

TDKR's script actually tried to explain how he's able to find people like that with that line Batman says to Blake about placing tracking devices on the people he cares about, but I'm glad it was cut. An awkward and unnecessary line, cause we already have a good sense of what he's capable of what he's prepared to do. He's Batman. He's BATMAN.

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Old 03-21-2013, 11:07 PM   #438
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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To some. It's not a plot hole when you just think about how Bruce was trained as a ninja as well as how easy the Special Forces got in Gotham, lol.

BB and TDK both left hints of how Batman gets around so mysteriously either by seeing how Bruce is trained as a ninja or how easy he found Harvey Dent twice without the audience knowing how.
Yeah, I guess it's just something I have to learn to deal with, lol.

I've got this love/hate relationship with TDKR these last few months.

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Old 03-22-2013, 01:03 AM   #439
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

I've never had problems with any batfilm. Loved them all. Animated or live action. There's a batman movie for everyday of the week. Different Batman versions depending on my mood/day. I can watch ones with family/kids. Ones by myself, whatever. Its the character/idea of batman that I love. It doesn't matter what universe/world you drop him in. Animated, live-action, video game, cartoon, comic book, whatever it is. I don't let little differences bother me between versions. I do have versions that I watch way more than others but I still get around to them all. It all subjective. You can scratch away at this trait or theme and or focus more on another but it still right. I never say a version is wrong just that I prefer another!

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Old 03-22-2013, 01:18 AM   #440
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Some versions require you to know the history of the characters, some show you how this happened, some tell you how this happened and some require you to use your brain to fill in the gaps. As long as it makes sense to you, in your mind, it isnt wrong. You are viewing the characters through other peoples eyes, writers, film-makers etc then making your own choice about the final product. All ideas have been used before writers and film-makers etc try to take bits and pieces from here and there and through the creative mind and talent put thier own spin on it.

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Old 03-22-2013, 03:55 AM   #441
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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To some. It's not a plot hole when you just think about how Bruce was trained as a ninja as well as how easy the Special Forces got in Gotham, lol.
But didn't the special forces get in while hiding in the Fema(?) trucks?. Do we really know Fema trucks were driving into Gotham the moment Bruce needed to get in there? No.

But, if I may, that makes the most sense. Too bad we really have no idea how he got back.

IF we could have seen him sneak in, that would have been great, at least for me.

It may be a plot hole to some--for me, it took me right out of the movie. Oh well.

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Old 03-22-2013, 05:54 AM   #442
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It may be a plot hole to some--for me, it took me right out of the movie. Oh well.


It did the same to me and my brother.
Up until that moment I was completely engrossed.
But then when Bruce just approaches Selina, in broad daylight. We both looked at each other..."WTF".


Now, having seen the film numerous times, the most dissapointing thing about the film for me is the actual story.
It falls apart under scrutiny, and as a batfan I find it very hard to accept.
I mean Bruce would never retire Batman and go into exile for 8 yrs.
It goes completely against the essence of the character and his motivation and obsession with his mission.

It also ruins the ending to TDK.
"Why are we chasing him? because he can take it. because he is a silent protector. A dark Knight."
Instead. he can't take it. he gives up.
Who here wasnt expecting TDKR to continue either directly after TDK or a couple of years?
8yrs of exile? So Bruce's career as Batman was about 2yrs.

Also. The entire John Blake sup plot where he just assumes Bruce is Bats over a look Bruce had? I mean...wtf? What a lazy and more importantly, unnecessary plot device.
So a kid works out Bruce is Bats based on a look. Yet trained detectives, with all their deductive resources, can't?

The film would've been so much better and more fitting, if at the end, Blake recieves the co-ordinates to the cave, and that is the moment he realizes his mentor is his hero.

Also. the entire plan by Bane and Talia is so stupid.
So they were planning on destroying the city regardless, and sacrificing themselves in the process.
So why didnt they just detonate the bomb once they realize that Bruce/bats is back?

If the movie followed its own logic in the scheme.
Bane would've seen the Batflame sign on the bridge.
"Impossible".

"BOOM".

If not then, then surely once they see the army of police preparing to attack.


The film doesnt stand against any scrutiny.
In saying all this, I still thoroughly enjoy the film on its own merits. Its and engrossing spectacle no doubt.
But the Batfan inside of me is bitterly dissapointed.

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Old 03-22-2013, 06:24 AM   #443
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Just like with prometheus the hype for this film was enormous, i'm glad i went into both films not expecting much, cause they're some of my favorite films of the year. One thing i learned from TDKR is that the USA shouldn't get films before Europe, why? Well, when The Avengers was released first around here there weren't many spoilers on the internet, or in least most respected the rest of the fans.

When TDKR was released there were spoilers everywhere, i had to wait a week for it to be released here and by that time almost nobody used spoiler taags anymore, a ******er even told me to chill cause "it's already been a week since it was released". I was spoiled about the Talia twist, and only realised i was spoiled about John Blake inheriting the batcave after i saw the film, didn't find the thread that did so, i hope it burns in hell

When we in Europe get another important superhero film first i'm gonna spoil you all for this

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Old 03-22-2013, 07:21 AM   #444
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It did the same to me and my brother.
Up until that moment I was completely engrossed.
But then when Bruce just approaches Selina, in broad daylight. We both looked at each other..."WTF".
I understand that a quick shot or two of travel may have helped; though everyone had to know he was going to show back up somehow. He was even shown in different clothes that were dirty and ragged.

In terms of the story, I think Nolan faced a quandry when Ledger died. I'd bet that Rises wasn't quite the exact story he had intended. In his insistance that Ledger not be mentioned, he had to find a new way to close it out that would not involve any mention of the Joker.

While Batman wouldn't retire and that he was supposed to be tough enough to take it - by taking the fall, the Dent act was passed and the streets cleaned for the 8 years. Batman wasn't needed. It was "peace time". Again, my guess is the 8 years was the mechanism to distance the movie from TDK so the absence of the Joker didn't have to be explained.

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Old 03-22-2013, 07:56 AM   #445
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It's an imaginary city.
Really?!?! Gotham isn't a real city?!?! But I was hoping to go there this summer and visit!!!!!!!!! I am so so so heartbroken now. At least now I have you here to set me straight on things and inform me on the ways of the world. Thank you thank you thank you thank you......

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It could have different laws.
It apparently has different laws of physics, seeing as how Batman was able to jump out of a plane and then swim away from a nuclear blast.

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Stop nitpicking.
Nitpicking is saying that Bruce would never wear that tie with that suit....my post on the other hand was explaining real world law.

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It's a movie being interesting.
Being interesting and enjoyable are two different things.

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Old 03-22-2013, 08:34 AM   #446
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It did the same to me and my brother.
Up until that moment I was completely engrossed.
But then when Bruce just approaches Selina, in broad daylight. We both looked at each other..."WTF".
Yeah, I saw the film with a lot of different people and they all had a similar reaction at that moment. When you have so many different individuals experience the same thing, chances are it's sloppy writing.

And the biggest reason for that ISN'T because it's a plot holes. Plot holes pop up in movies all of the time, yet often don't get picked up till the 2nd or 3rd viewing. Bruce returning out of nowhere was bad because it pulled so many people out of the fictive dream.

When you're watching a really great film, you get totally engrossed by the narrative and it becomes an experience. When something pulls you out of that fictive dream and reminds you that you're watching a movie, that's sloppy writing.

Bruce appearing out of nowhere did that for me and a lot of people. I wasn't bothered by many of TDKR's flaws the first time around - I was SO engrossed in everything that was happening - but as soon as that moment happened I was pulled out of the experience and left thinking "Wait, what?"

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Old 03-22-2013, 08:40 AM   #447
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I only remembered Bruce couldn't have entered Gotham after the internet pointed that out

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Old 03-22-2013, 09:06 AM   #448
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It's an imaginary city. It could have different laws. Stop nitpicking. It's a movie being interesting.
As with any piece of fiction dealing with an imaginary city or place, unless it is explicitly stated exactly how they differ from the world we live in, we must assume that they operate under the same rules.

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Old 03-22-2013, 12:13 PM   #449
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I'm not a fan of the term "sloppy" being thrown around so liberally for TDKR's script. To me that implies the Nolans sitting around like...

-"Shoot, we wrote ourselves into a hole. How do we get Bruce back to Gotham?"
-"Oh gee, idk. I got it, we'll just have him appear mysteriously. Problem solved!"

I think it's more the opposite, they probably had the exact idea of how he gets back but just decided in the end that it didn't need to be shown because it didn't do anything to advance the plot, characters or themes. And I think they also wanted to keep Bruce a step ahead of us after escaping the pit so they could have their ending.

You can disagree with the writing choice. I just don't think "sloppy" is the appropriate word when they were working under the constraint of the movie having to be 2 hours, 45 minutes and 0 seconds.

As a writer, Nolan was trying to tell the largest and most engrossing story possible. As a director, he was trying to present it in the largest and most engrossing format. You can't really fault him for either. He didn't compromise the story that he wanted to tell, but did have to abridge some things. Again, this just doesn't fit my idea of sloppy. Every choice for things that were IN the movie were extremely disciplined (as usual). Yup, even Foley served a pretty important purpose thematically.

The only thing disappointing about not showing Bruce's return is that it would have been cool to see. If that's the only reason to justify it being in, then it may be a tough choice, but under these circumstances it's gotta go.

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Old 03-22-2013, 01:17 PM   #450
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there's a lot of sloppy editing (as in shot to shot editing), sound mixing, etc.

A surprising amount of errors for such a big budget film. I mean, what other movie in history had unintentionally had a character where the audience couldn't understand what he was saying? It's mind-boggling.

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