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Old 04-11-2013, 01:16 PM   #751
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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The problem with Blake is that unlike Bruce Blake didn't need Batman. When you see Bruce in BB he is a broken shell of a man. Angry, bitter, and an almost murder. Batman redeemed Bruce and Bruce was able to find something worth living for in the icon of Batman, and in turn that icon rescued Bruce from death itself. Blake didn't have that. When we first meet him he has everything together, He lost his parents but he wasn't the empty shell that Bruce was. Blake didn't do anything to earn or NEED the role of Batman. He literal exisisted to just so they could hand off the bat suit to him. He's a lame character IMO and an example of awful writing.
I agree. Blake is one of my least favorite characters in the trilogy.

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Old 04-11-2013, 01:27 PM   #752
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Blake is disillusioned, abandoning everything he believed by the end of TDKR. A man "looking for a path". Just like Bruce was at the beginning of BB.

They took very different paths to get there, but that's the whole point. Blake is not Bruce Wayne 2.0. He represents the next step of evolution for the symbol of Batman.
Yes but its not enough. Not when compared to Bruce. I know its because they had som much to tell in the film but its still not enough. At least for me.

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Old 04-11-2013, 01:43 PM   #753
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Blake is an incredibly generic and boring character. He is essentially a Gary Stu. I would say he is one of the worst things about the movie. Think about everything you could've done with the screen time that was devoted to the incredibly boring and generic John Blake. You could have further developed Catwoman, Talia, Bane, etc.

I only recently came to the following conclusion after I went back and read some fanfics and previous posted posts on message boards prior to production on TDKR starting. I remember how many fans were trying to come up with ways on how to make Robin work in live-action and a lot of the Robin concepts fans had that I saw pop up over and over again were concepts very similar to John Blake's character - already a full grown man as opposed to a kid, being introduced as a member of the GCPD before he gets recruited by Batman, a Dick Grayson-ish personality, a character with an idealist mentality that doesn't like how the police does things and quits at the end to join Batman, someone inspired by Batman and deducing his identity, etc.

Most of the idea on how to do Robin were very similar to that and none of them came off as too interesting to me either. They all came off to me as just very generic and boring versions of Robin pitched by fans that just wanted to see Robin in the franchise regardless of how he was done. After going back and reading all that, I've realized that that is exactly what Blake feels like. He feels like a generic character pulled straight out of a not-so-professionally-written fanfic written in 2008 by a fan that really wants to see Robin in the franchise.

I also talked with someone once who told me that he believed Nolan created the John Blake character mainly because he wanted to work with JGL again and because he knew fans wanted to see Robin, he took advantage of that. I'm not sure if I can fully believe that but given what a incredible writer Nolan is, he technically would be able to create characters just for reasons like that but have them feel more natural to the story and the viewers wouldn't even notice.

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Old 04-11-2013, 02:15 PM   #754
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I will say I like that he became Batman and not Robin. I didn't pay too much attention to him prior to the film's release but judging from the rumors, ads, and name of the movie I figured the Icon of Batman would contine beyond Bruce. If you like Blake I can see why and I don't think thats bad but he hurts alot of the film for me. Espically how he just knows Bruce is Batman just because he knows. His character would have worked better for me if he was just a cop assigned to work with Bruce or something and as the two worked and bonded together Bruce began to see something in him. Plus if Blake had no clue that Bruce was Batman than the ending in the Batcave would have had a MUCH sronger impact IMO.

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Old 04-11-2013, 02:34 PM   #755
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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I also talked with someone once who told me that he believed Nolan created the John Blake character mainly because he wanted to work with JGL again and because he knew fans wanted to see Robin, he took advantage of that. I'm not sure if I can fully believe that but given what a incredible writer Nolan is, he technically would be able to create characters just for reasons like that but have them feel more natural to the story and the viewers wouldn't even notice.
Doubtful, as the story for TDKR was already cracked with Jonah Nolan already working on the first draft before cameras ever even rolled on Inception.

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Old 04-11-2013, 02:41 PM   #756
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Doubtful, as the story for TDKR was already cracked with Jonah Nolan already working on the first draft before cameras ever even rolled on Inception.
Not saying I believe it. It was someone else's theory. I wanted to mention it to hear what other people think.

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Old 04-11-2013, 02:49 PM   #757
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Not saying I believe it. It was someone else's theory. I wanted to mention it to hear what other people think.
Well, that's what I think haha

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Old 04-11-2013, 03:17 PM   #758
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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Blake is an incredibly generic and boring character. He is essentially a Gary Stu. I would say he is one of the worst things about the movie. Think about everything you could've done with the screen time that was devoted to the incredibly boring and generic John Blake. You could have further developed Catwoman, Talia, Bane, etc.

I only recently came to the following conclusion after I went back and read some fanfics and previous posted posts on message boards prior to production on TDKR starting. I remember how many fans were trying to come up with ways on how to make Robin work in live-action and a lot of the Robin concepts fans had that I saw pop up over and over again were concepts very similar to John Blake's character - already a full grown man as opposed to a kid, being introduced as a member of the GCPD before he gets recruited by Batman, a Dick Grayson-ish personality, a character with an idealist mentality that doesn't like how the police does things and quits at the end to join Batman, someone inspired by Batman and deducing his identity, etc.

Most of the idea on how to do Robin were very similar to that and none of them came off as too interesting to me either. They all came off to me as just very generic and boring versions of Robin pitched by fans that just wanted to see Robin in the franchise regardless of how he was done. After going back and reading all that, I've realized that that is exactly what Blake feels like. He feels like a generic character pulled straight out of a not-so-professionally-written fanfic written in 2008 by a fan that really wants to see Robin in the franchise.

I also talked with someone once who told me that he believed Nolan created the John Blake character mainly because he wanted to work with JGL again and because he knew fans wanted to see Robin, he took advantage of that. I'm not sure if I can fully believe that but given what a incredible writer Nolan is, he technically would be able to create characters just for reasons like that but have them feel more natural to the story and the viewers wouldn't even notice.
what aspect of Dick's, Jason's, or Tim's origins do you like more than Blake's?

(assuming that you're a fan of the other Robins)

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Old 04-11-2013, 03:20 PM   #759
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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The problem with Blake is that unlike Bruce Blake didn't need Batman. When you see Bruce in BB he is a broken shell of a man. Angry, bitter, and an almost murder. Batman redeemed Bruce and Bruce was able to find something worth living for in the icon of Batman, and in turn that icon rescued Bruce from death itself. Blake didn't have that. When we first meet him he has everything together, He lost his parents but he wasn't the empty shell that Bruce was. Blake didn't do anything to earn or NEED the role of Batman. He literal exisisted to just so they could hand off the bat suit to him. He's a lame character IMO and an example of awful writing.
What you described is Robin. Almost every Robin in the comics or TAS (which does depict them differently/better), plays him as a more well-adjusted and sane person than Bruce Wayne. He crime fights because he believes it is the right thing to do and he knows loss, but it is not a psychological obsession in the way it is for Bruce Wayne.

That is actually why the best "heir" storyline ever, IMO, is Batman Beyond, because Dini and Timm finally created a successor just as disturbed as Wayne.

Honestly, I feel like if Blake was named Dick Grayson, most of these complaints would not exist, save for the fact that he does not wear a costume. The character is basically an amalgamation of all the personality traits of Dick Grayson and Tim Drake.

Complaining about the lack of training is one thing. But his personality is right in line for a Robin in the story.

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Old 04-11-2013, 04:23 PM   #760
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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what aspect of Dick's, Jason's, or Tim's origins do you like more than Blake's?

(assuming that you're a fan of the other Robins)
Not too crazy about Jason. I like Dick (no pun intended ) and Tim because unlike Blake, they are well developed characters and are interesting. Blake is the generic young idealist cop we've seen in tons of crime dramas. Heck, in a lot of ways, he was just Year One/Batman Begins Gordon 2.0.

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Old 04-11-2013, 04:35 PM   #761
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What you described is Robin. Almost every Robin in the comics or TAS (which does depict them differently/better), plays him as a more well-adjusted and sane person than Bruce Wayne. He crime fights because he believes it is the right thing to do and he knows loss, but it is not a psychological obsession in the way it is for Bruce Wayne.

That is actually why the best "heir" storyline ever, IMO, is Batman Beyond, because Dini and Timm finally created a successor just as disturbed as Wayne.

Honestly, I feel like if Blake was named Dick Grayson, most of these complaints would not exist, save for the fact that he does not wear a costume. The character is basically an amalgamation of all the personality traits of Dick Grayson and Tim Drake.

Complaining about the lack of training is one thing. But his personality is right in line for a Robin in the story.
Batman Beyond Is amazing!

I never really saw Blake as Robin. When the name was first dropped I did but as soon as the credits started that stopped. I interpret the Robin line as a fan nod. To me its clear that Blake becomes Batman and not Robin at the end. Plus thats what I believe the title of The Dark Knight Rises means. That the legacy of Batman will live on beyond Bruce.


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Old 04-11-2013, 04:42 PM   #762
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Saying Robin is not a nod to fans. Using Zsasz was a nod to fans, referencing Henri Ducard was for fans, Joker's mask was for fans, the piano keys for entering the bat keys is a nod for fans.

Had they said Dick Grayson, I'd agree, but they didn't, they used something that everyone that saw the film would recognise, not just fans, as soon as they said "Robin", John Blake stopped being a cop to the general audience and he became Batman's sidekick.

That doesn't even go into the fact that John Blake/Robin represents everything that Robin has historically represented in the comic books.

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Old 04-11-2013, 05:24 PM   #763
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The name shows how he served as the "Robin" role in TDKR (a fellow orphan who inspires Batman, and in turn is inspired by Batman). He becomes Batman at the end.

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Old 04-11-2013, 05:25 PM   #764
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Saying Robin is not a nod to fans. Using Zsasz was a nod to fans, referencing Henri Ducard was for fans, Joker's mask was for fans, the piano keys for entering the bat keys is a nod for fans.

Had they said Dick Grayson, I'd agree, but they didn't, they used something that everyone that saw the film would recognise, not just fans, as soon as they said "Robin", John Blake stopped being a cop to the general audience and he became Batman's sidekick.

That doesn't even go into the fact that John Blake/Robin represents everything that Robin has historically represented in the comic books.
But again I would argue that Blake isn't Batman's sidekick, he's Bruce's replacment and the NEXT Batman. But thats just me.

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Old 04-11-2013, 05:29 PM   #765
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But again I would argue that Blake isn't Batman's sidekick, he's Bruce's replacment and the NEXT Batman. But thats just me.
The idea to me is to acknowledge that yes, he was "Robin" all along, but now he's on the path to becoming the next Batman. Much like Robin has ascended to the mantle in the comics.

Edit: FeedOnATreeFrog beat me to it, haha

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Old 04-11-2013, 05:47 PM   #766
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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Well, that's what I think haha
Yah, I don't buy the idea that Nolan added in the character of Blake just to work with JGL again either. Sounds like something someone would say just to give themselves a reason, lol.

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Old 04-11-2013, 05:58 PM   #767
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

Robin fights along side Batman as his partner. That wasn't Blake. He didn't help Batman any more than Gordon, Lucius or Selina did. In fact the latter three did more to help the mission than Blake did. Not to mention shared more scenes with Batman than Blake did, too.

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Old 04-11-2013, 06:02 PM   #768
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I'm so split on the Blake character.

On one hand, I find him compelling, proactive and I'm okay with him taking on the mantle. Not to mention I think it's JGL's best performance yet.

On the other, I hate how he figures out Bruce's identity, I hate that he takes the spotlight away from characters who deserved it (Gordon, Selina and hell, even Bruce) while at the same time, I don't think his and Bruce's relationship is developed enough for Bruce to trust him with the mantle.
What did Blake's screentime take away from Bruce when Bruce inside the Pit takes most of the entire second act to build on Bruce's arc?

Plus, I don't see how Bruce couldn't trust Blake any more. He trusted Gordon immediately with his crusade to clean up Gotham, so why not trust Blake when he knew about Bruce being Batman and never told a soul?

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Old 04-11-2013, 06:09 PM   #769
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What did Blake's screentime take away from Bruce when Bruce inside the Pit takes most of the entire second act to build on Bruce's arc?

Plus, I don't see how Bruce couldn't trust Blake any more. He trusted Gordon immediately with his crusade to clean up Gotham, so why not trust Blake when he knew about Bruce being Batman and never told a soul?
Because Bruce shared a very important moment with Gordan when his parents were killed. Gordan was the only cop there when his parents were killed who actually cared about Bruce and the only one to show him any love no matter how small. Gordan was tied into Bruce's tradgedy quite well IMO.

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Old 04-11-2013, 06:45 PM   #770
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I already said Bruce trusted Gordon immediately, lol. But even then, it's not shocking that he trusts Blake who feels that same emotional struggle that Bruce does having witness their parents being shot and killed(but only Blake's father, rather than both parents).

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Old 04-11-2013, 07:16 PM   #771
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The moment he shares with Blake appeared to be one of the most meaningful moments he's had his whole life.

Knowing that he's not alone, knowing that somebody else knows exactly what he's going through, knowing that someone still believes in what he devoted his life to and understands why he does it, etc.

I'll never care what people say. I love that scene.

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Old 04-11-2013, 07:22 PM   #772
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Blake not needing Batman is exactly why he's perfect. Bruce is destroyed by Batman because of how much he relies on him as a crutch, allowing him to ignore living as himself. He put far too much stock into this idea and once he can no longer use it, he becomes a hollow shell with nothing sustaining him. Like a black hole. Blake not needing Batman as a crutch but instead picking it up to carry on the legacy and inspiring hope in Gotham is a good move because he could pass it on and it could continue, be an everlasting symbol in Gotham, and it wouldn't destroy him like it did Bruce.


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Old 04-11-2013, 07:26 PM   #773
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I see people saying that the Robin name was fan service like how Zsasz and Henri Ducard were. It was not fan service; it was pandering to the audience.

Fan service would've been if his name was Dick Grayson or Tim Drake or even Terry McGinnis. That would've been a really cool easter egg to do, one fans would've understood while the general audience overall would've still got the message of Bruce passing on the torch. It's not like they wouldn't have understood that by the end if the name drop wasn't there.

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Old 04-11-2013, 07:38 PM   #774
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

The "Robin" name is more important to the idea of Batman's successor anyway, as evidenced by as many as five characters having taken on that persona (with a potential sixth on the horizon).

It was fan service AND pandering to the audience. It was an acknowledgement of the Robin character in the Nolanverse. Kind of a big deal for some of us.

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Old 04-11-2013, 07:42 PM   #775
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What you described is Robin. Almost every Robin in the comics or TAS (which does depict them differently/better), plays him as a more well-adjusted and sane person than Bruce Wayne. He crime fights because he believes it is the right thing to do and he knows loss, but it is not a psychological obsession in the way it is for Bruce Wayne.

That is actually why the best "heir" storyline ever, IMO, is Batman Beyond, because Dini and Timm finally created a successor just as disturbed as Wayne.

Honestly, I feel like if Blake was named Dick Grayson, most of these complaints would not exist, save for the fact that he does not wear a costume. The character is basically an amalgamation of all the personality traits of Dick Grayson and Tim Drake.

Complaining about the lack of training is one thing. But his personality is right in line for a Robin in the story.
This.

The thing people do not seem to understand about Batman is that he is not a legacy character like how Flash and Green Lantern are. Batman is the byproduct of Bruce Wayne's damaged psychological mind. That part of Bruce is what makes Batman who he is. There is and can only be one true Batman. Sure that you can have someone like Dick Grayson or Tim Drake take over the Batman mantle for a short period of time if Bruce is missing, considered dead, or is off somewhere doing something else but Bruce is the only one capable of being Batman in the long run.

However, Batman Beyond is the one exception in all of history that has managed to pull of the "Batman is a legacy" thing while still staying true to what Batman is all about. This is not only because, as you said, they created a character just as disturbed as Bruce, but also because they show how far Amanda Waller has to go and how dirty her hands have to get in order to create another Batman, as well as what consequences both her and the Batman she created (Terry) have to go through because of this. Nolan should've taken notes from Timm and Dini in this department.

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