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Old 05-02-2013, 06:47 PM   #826
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

I'm still very grateful that Nolan didn't have to highjack TDKR with JLA tie-ins, like some of the more weak rumors hinted at.

Sad thing is it's most likely going to happen with MOS. That's why I can't get too attached to that film.

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Old 05-02-2013, 07:49 PM   #827
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

I didn't respond to my earlier post about negativity affecting how you watch a film, and this growing hostility towards TDKR as mentioned by other posters is what I'm talking about.

TDKR is a film that is easy to pick apart because it is supposed to be a superhero film that features low superheroics; naturally, when vocal critics point this out, some audiences who were previously satisfied with how the film played out but were looking for more Batman screen-time, more Batman action-time will subconciously look and watch out for supposed flaws the next time they view the film and of course they will see it. They will forget that the story made sense, that the themes of the story is more powerful than what they were looking for. They will now watch just to see plot holes.

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Old 05-02-2013, 07:55 PM   #828
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I'm still very grateful that Nolan didn't have to highjack TDKR with JLA tie-ins, like some of the more weak rumors hinted at.

Sad thing is it's most likely going to happen with MOS. That's why I can't get too attached to that film.
A few nods and hints here and there wouldn't hurt MOS, such as references to different cities like Gotham, but I think it'd be best to not mention any specific names and leave that be for either an after-credits scene, or just the actual Justice League film. Someone mentioning a Batman or Wonder Woman in the film would just feel forced.

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Old 05-03-2013, 05:46 AM   #829
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I don't understand.

TDKR is higher rated than Batman Begins on RT and metacritic.

If anything this is the 'first-act curse'....or whatever.

It might be getting more noticeable internet flak than BBegins because that's what happens when it doesn't live up to the predecessor (TDK) and because of that predecessor, you have a lot more people paying attention.
+1
I am wondering why somepeople keep saying TDKR failed to break the 3rd act curse,

fail on what? rating from rottentomatoe,metacritic,IMDB? or boxoffice record?


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Old 05-03-2013, 06:55 AM   #830
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+1
I am wondering why somepeople keep saying TDKR failed to break the 3rd act curse,

fail on what? rating from rottentomatoe,metacritic,IMDB? or boxoffice record?
Failed to maybe break it in their own opinion?
For me it failed because my definition of breaking the 3rd act curse is being better than the previous two films - which TDKR, for me, was not.

Still waiting for that trilogy.

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Old 05-03-2013, 06:59 AM   #831
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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Let alone that Nolan wanted to have a solo story of Batman, why is it a problem that his Batman isn't part of a bigger universe? Do you complain about how Raimi did that with Spider-Man? Or Donner and Superman? Or even Burton with Batman(before the call out to Superman in Schumacher's installment)?
because i didn't want the story to end. that's why its a problem for me. BB was supposed to be a stand alone; i don't think he planned on a trilogy. he could have just left whatever post TDK film was to be made to someone else. he could have grand fathered it the way he has mos with snyder and we could have had endless possibilities for a dc universe.


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Old 05-03-2013, 07:50 AM   #832
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Failed to maybe break it in their own opinion?
For me it failed because my definition of breaking the 3rd act curse is being better than the previous two films - which TDKR, for me, was not.

Still waiting for that trilogy.
For me and my friends,it is a satisfied conclusion for this triolgy. it fulfills the desire we had since the day we watched The Dark Knight

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:03 AM   #833
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

I still feel that the Dark Knight Trilogy were a great set of drama/action films...but horrible Batman movies.

The Dark Knight being the worst of the bunch. Batman was more of a guest star in that film and the fact they pissed all over the source material wasn't any better.

It was a huge dissapointment.

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:18 AM   #834
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For the last five minutes alone I enjoyed it more than TDK.
Such an amazing ending.

though neither can touch Begins.

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:26 AM   #835
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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For me and my friends,it is a satisfied conclusion for this triolgy. it fulfills the desire we had since the day we watched The Dark Knight
I'm happy for you and your friends, but that doesn't mean other people can't be dissatisfied with it

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:27 AM   #836
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

I still don't get how they pissed all over the source material.

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:51 AM   #837
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I'm happy for you and your friends, but that doesn't mean other people can't be dissatisfied with it
did anyone say it means other people must be satisfied with it?

-------------------------------------
look at IMDB/RT/Met,there is always a majority group and a minority group.

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:57 AM   #838
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did anyone say it means other people must be satisfied with it?
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I am wondering why somepeople keep saying TDKR failed to break the 3rd act curse,
For you (and a lot of people) it broke the 3rd act curse, for me and a lot of others it didn't.

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:25 AM   #839
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

Oh it broke the third act curse alright...right over its knee.

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:29 AM   #840
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I disagree. I wouldn't count TDKR even on Batman Begins' level of quality, which is not as high as TDK's. Thus I don't buy the "all the haters just expected it to top TDK" argument. In fact, I think most of the time that argument is used to dismiss any criticism as just "fanboyish complaints".
But the argument isn't just about "any citicism", is it? No. It's about the overblown, extremist fanboys slamming TDKR as the one of the worst movies of the year (which is absurd, when it clearly isn't). That's my point. When TDKR didn't surpass (or even meet) TDK in terms of quality, the fanboy sledgehammer comes down, condemning it as "WORST EVAR!!!!". This is the empy-headed, fanboy, bandwagon-jumping, zealotry I'm talking about.


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You're also ignoring a lot of the arguments made against TDKR by saying what you said. Although I do have issues with the plot holes, character development, and other stuff like that in the movie, my main issues with the movie is the fact that I believe it ignores & contradicts things from the previous 2 movies (a lot more from TDK though) and the messages & claims it makes about Batman that are not true to the essence of Batman. I don't see how you can simplify those complaints to me just being upset that it wasn't as good as TDK.
I'm not ignoring anything. There were a great many things I didn't like about TDKR. I understand very well its faults and flaws. But on the same page, I can find things I did like. Again, my point is that internet fanboy overreaction and ranting has made the general consensus about TDKR seem worse than it is.


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Also, while I do think bashing TDKR based on the fact that it isn't as good as TDK is wrong and stupid, I do sympathize with those people to a small extent because 1) Nolan said he wouldn't do another movie unless it is just as good or better than TDK and 2) The movie was marketed as the most epic in scale out of all of them - "The epic conclusion to the epic trilogy" as the trailers dubbed it.

And I'm sure Nolan made every effort to make a great film. He didn't get lazy or purposefully make a film of lower quality. TDKR is a well made film with its fair share of negatives as well as positives- but the needless and overblown internet overreaction would have you think otherwise.

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:33 AM   #841
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I don't think there is a "third film" curse, for any movie. I think by the time a third picture rolls around audiences are expecting more (in this case, the third being better than the previous films) and the filmmakers always look to go in a different direction while making contrived connections to previous installments.


All third movies rely on the same cliches for the most part. They all usually go back to the beginning, they usually rely heavily on flashbacks and they create unnecessary questions and dilemmas that rub people the wrong way. You can see where they're going from miles away. When it gets to the "third one" they tread a fine line of familiarity with the audience (people want to see a continuation of what they loved) but with this new, unique weirdness as well. By the third film (during or after release), I think people just get sick of it, the fans, audiences, and the people that were involved in making it. It's a "been there, done that" situation and what once made it great has gotten old.

In my opinion, unless it's something like Lord of the Rings (three films based on a book, filmed and released simultaneously), filmmakers should just stop after their second film, successes or not.



Looking at the three different Batman pictures (Nolan, Burton, Schumacher), each one of their interpretations starts to get bogged down with the director's vision as each film progresses. Their styles and approaches become more apparent. With Batman Returns, you can see it's much more "Burtonesque". While I love Batman Returns, I can't imagine what a third Burton film would have been. It probably would have been an even farther departure from the first. Batman and Robin is like Batman Forever times 100. The neon is pumped up to the max, the obnoxious qualities like buttshots and corny cheese is featured in every scene, another hero and villain is added etc. etc. With Nolan, it's TDKR. Everything is just heightened and bloated versions of Begins and Dark Knight. It's like the exact opposite feel of what Schumacher did but similar in that the sequel is just a "bigger" version of what they had done previously. The characters can't just be themselves and act naturally, they always have to be some theme and "something more" (even established characters like Batman and Gordon with two stories under their belts). The story has to be larger and the stakes have to be higher despite it being as high as it should have gone in the second film and the characters suffer for it.


It just gets excessive and I think the filmmakers, storytellers, whatever start to lose sight of what makes the character their adapting great in the first place.


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Old 05-03-2013, 11:01 AM   #842
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

Often what happens is that the filmmakers use up their best ideas in the first two films, and we are left with second rate material for the third. That and sometimes the concept is just tired (or people are tired of it).

However, I'm not a big believer in the third movie curse. There are a lot of exceptions out there: Goldfinger, The Good, The Bad & The Ugly, Return of the Jedi, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Back to the Future Part III, Army of Darkness, Return of the King, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, etc.

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Old 05-03-2013, 11:20 AM   #843
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I don't think there is a "third film" curse, for any movie. I think by the time a third picture rolls around audiences are expecting more (in this case, the third being better than the previous films) and the filmmakers always look to go in a different direction while making contrived connections to previous installments.


All third movies rely on the same cliches for the most part. They all usually go back to the beginning, they usually rely heavily on flashbacks and they create unnecessary questions and dilemmas that rub people the wrong way. You can see where they're going from miles away. When it gets to the "third one" they tread a fine line of familiarity with the audience (people want to see a continuation of what they loved) but with this new, unique weirdness as well. By the third film (during or after release), I think people just get sick of it, the fans, audiences, and the people that were involved in making it. It's a "been there, done that" situation and what once made it great has gotten old.

In my opinion, unless it's something like Lord of the Rings (three films based on a book, filmed and released simultaneously), filmmakers should just stop after their second film, successes or not.



Looking at the three different Batman pictures (Nolan, Burton, Schumacher), each one of their interpretations starts to get bogged down with the director's vision as each film progresses. Their styles and approaches become more apparent. With Batman Returns, you can see it's much more "Burtonesque". While I love Batman Returns, I can't imagine what a third Burton film would have been. It probably would have been an even farther departure from the first. Batman and Robin is like Batman Forever times 100. The neon is pumped up to the max, the obnoxious qualities like buttshots and corny cheese is featured in every scene, another hero and villain is added etc. etc. With Nolan, it's TDKR. Everything is just heightened and bloated versions of Begins and Dark Knight. It's like the exact opposite feel of what Schumacher did but similar in that the sequel is just a "bigger" version of what they had done previously. The characters can't just be themselves and act naturally, they always have to be some theme and "something more" (even established characters like Batman and Gordon with two stories under their belts). The story has to be larger and the stakes have to be higher despite it being as high as it should have gone in the second film and the characters suffer for it.


It just gets excessive and I think the filmmakers, storytellers, whatever start to lose sight of what makes the character their adapting great in the first place.

Very well said (all of it, but the bold in particular)! The unecessary questions and dilemmas that rub people the wrong way along with the problem of giving people something they're familiar with whilst making it "new" and "different" enough to remain interesting.

The series with a pre-existing story (Harry Potter, LOTR) or that don't have a hard continuity (Man with no name trilogy, Indiana Jones) have it easiest as all the most important things that determine the course of the film are existing (plot, story, character) in the case of adaptations, and also have the most leighway in terms of providing something new and interesting while still giving the audience the familiarity that made them fall in love with the series in the first place (loose continuity series).

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Old 05-03-2013, 11:40 AM   #844
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Originally Posted by milost View Post
I don't think there is a "third film" curse, for any movie. I think by the time a third picture rolls around audiences are expecting more (in this case, the third being better than the previous films) and the filmmakers always look to go in a different direction while making contrived connections to previous installments.


All third movies rely on the same cliches for the most part. They all usually go back to the beginning, they usually rely heavily on flashbacks and they create unnecessary questions and dilemmas that rub people the wrong way. You can see where they're going from miles away. When it gets to the "third one" they tread a fine line of familiarity with the audience (people want to see a continuation of what they loved) but with this new, unique weirdness as well. By the third film (during or after release), I think people just get sick of it, the fans, audiences, and the people that were involved in making it. It's a "been there, done that" situation and what once made it great has gotten old.

In my opinion, unless it's something like Lord of the Rings (three films based on a book, filmed and released simultaneously), filmmakers should just stop after their second film, successes or not.



Looking at the three different Batman pictures (Nolan, Burton, Schumacher), each one of their interpretations starts to get bogged down with the director's vision as each film progresses. Their styles and approaches become more apparent. With Batman Returns, you can see it's much more "Burtonesque". While I love Batman Returns, I can't imagine what a third Burton film would have been. It probably would have been an even farther departure from the first. Batman and Robin is like Batman Forever times 100. The neon is pumped up to the max, the obnoxious qualities like buttshots and corny cheese is featured in every scene, another hero and villain is added etc. etc. With Nolan, it's TDKR. Everything is just heightened and bloated versions of Begins and Dark Knight. It's like the exact opposite feel of what Schumacher did but similar in that the sequel is just a "bigger" version of what they had done previously. The characters can't just be themselves and act naturally, they always have to be some theme and "something more" (even established characters like Batman and Gordon with two stories under their belts). The story has to be larger and the stakes have to be higher despite it being as high as it should have gone in the second film and the characters suffer for it.


It just gets excessive and I think the filmmakers, storytellers, whatever start to lose sight of what makes the character their adapting great in the first place.
Well said. I think TDKR needed to be set up in a way that it hit the ground running. I remember constantly looking at my watch in the theatre and being worried as to when the movie would actually start to get interesting and show me it's promised brilliance but as time progressed I couldn't help but feel disappointed. After the batman/bane fight I said the cat's out of the bag finally but the cat went nowhere. It's like he was being held in the bag so long that he was afraid to venture any further than a foot from the empty bag. Where was the epic? Where was the grit? Where was the flow? Last but not least.....where was the MINDF**K? Didn't have to be perfect but I at least expected better so in my books the third movie curse struck again.

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Old 05-03-2013, 12:20 PM   #845
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In my opinion, unless it's something like Lord of the Rings (three films based on a book, filmed and released simultaneously), filmmakers should just stop
By that logic, Han Solo would have stayed frozen in carbonite for eternity.

I like trilogies. I definitely agree with you that pulling off a third film presents a lot of real challenges in terms of living up to expectation while keeping it fresh.

But I don't agree at all with the attitude that filmmakers shouldn't even try. The prospect of giving closure to characters you've gone on a journey with shouldn't be dismissed.

For example, what about Toy Story 3? That series wasn't even remotely planned as a trilogy, but the third one still put a nice bow on the series and had a lot of emotional impact. And it did so precisely because everyone was so attached to those characters. People like conclusions, that's why they like trilogies.

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Old 05-03-2013, 12:56 PM   #846
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Oh it broke the third act curse alright...right over its knee.
And if TDKR couldn't have done it, it would be years and years for that curse to be broken seeing as how Iron Man 3 turned out to be

If TDKR turned out to be a mess, all hope would likely be on The Avengers' shoulders.

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Old 05-03-2013, 01:35 PM   #847
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The 2nd act of TDKR was horrible...I could barely sit through it. Third act was decent except for the ending where Batman somehow escapes from a nuclear explosion within seconds.

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Old 05-03-2013, 03:08 PM   #848
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By that logic, Han Solo would have stayed frozen in carbonite for eternity.

Better than acting annoyed 24/7 and being a caricature of what he was in Star Wars and Empire though, right?

Solo is one of my favorite characters in Star Wars until Jedi. The whole Endor raid is Han at his worst, from *****ing about 3PO to the stuff with the Ewoks. I actually agree with Ford that it might have been more compelling if they simply "killed him off".

I stand by the idea that the only great things about Jedi is the Jabba's Palace rescue and the final confrontation with Vader, Luke and the Emperor. Everything else is lame.



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For example, what about Toy Story 3? That series wasn't even remotely planned as a trilogy, but the third one still put a nice bow on the series and had a lot of emotional impact. And it did so precisely because everyone was so attached to those characters. People like conclusions, that's why they like trilogies.

Toy Story 3 was alright but it wasn't really necessary was it? I enjoyed it but it felt like it was trying too hard to pull at people's heart strings, not sure how I felt about that incinerator at the end either.

There's a "conclusion" at the end of Toy Story 2 though which basically sums up about what Toy Story 3 is all about.


"It'll be fun until it lasts. Besides, when it ends, I'll have old Buzz Lightyear to keep me company for infinity and beyond."










I still stick to the idea that two films are better than three (if that, most movies are better off ending at film 1 like Robocop). Best example is Terminator and Terminator 2, it doesn't get much better than that. All the sequels after that get redundant and lame.



The point of a sequel is to be better than it's predecessor and improve upon it in someway. I have yet to see a third flick that's done that. The only third films that I like are the ones where it's just another adventure and doesn't feel like they're trying to "cap it off" or put a bow on it. Where they have an idea for another plot or scenario and dive right in. Films like the third Indiana Jones, or a third bond film of any of the incarnations, etc. etc.

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Old 05-03-2013, 03:11 PM   #849
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And if TDKR couldn't have done it, it would be years and years for that curse to be broken seeing as how Iron Man 3 turned out to be
Have you even seen Iron Man 3? Don't be so quick to write it off based on fan boy reactions.



I'd say Iron Man 3 and TDKR are pretty similar in most regards when it comes to the heroes journey and the villain plot twists and the fan outcry (WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO MANDARIN/BRUCE WAYNE RETIRED?) I bet it's as well received critically, give or take, and is a success box office wise.




Like I said, there was never a curse. Things just tend to get old after the second picture and fans get sick of it or it doesn't live up to what came before it.

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Old 05-03-2013, 03:31 PM   #850
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Better than acting annoyed 24/7 and being a caricature of what he was in Star Wars and Empire though, right?

Solo is one of my favorite characters in Star Wars until Jedi. The whole Endor raid is Han at his worst, from *****ing about 3PO to the stuff with the Ewoks. I actually agree with Ford that it might have been more compelling if they simply "killed him off".

I stand by the idea that the only great things about Jedi is the Jabba's Palace rescue and the final confrontation with Vader, Luke and the Emperor. Everything else is lame.
I don't know if it'd be better. I think it's easy to say stuff like that in hindsight.

Sure, Han isn't exactly a strong point in ROTJ is Ford seems to be phoning in his performance. But the other main cliffhanger of ESB (Luke and Vader) was resolved in a very satisfying way. I'd rather have a flawed Return of the Jedi than none at all. That's just me though.

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