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Old 05-15-2013, 04:22 PM   #901
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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We aren't arguing that at all. I merely brought up the common similarities TDKR and IM3 have.
And it is curious, because while I see only shades of Nolan's influence on the first two Iron Man movies (how Favreau presented Tony's capture by terrorists and trying to give a real world rationalization for why and what Stane would use the technology for in IM1 and the sense of "escalation" in the first 30 minutes of IM2 that is immediately dropped)...

but as IM3 was written before TDKR came out, I think it is an incidental similarity.

Both try to be a trilogy closer that gives profound weight by going back to the beginning of each's series. Bruce must climb out of the well, this time much bigger, as an adult and thus out of his childhood trauma and Tony must give up the arc reactor that "made him" Iron Man. Both suffer from a form of PTSD, though Bruce's seems more severe (and honestly justified) and both end up "settling down" by the epilogue.

However, I do agree with many that say TDKR did it better. First, the threat Bruce had to rise up to face was far bigger than almost anything he has ever faced in the (solo) comics or on film. Beyond that, he was psychologically, physically and emotionally at a point where Batman wash holding him back. Tony's problems only seem half-hearted because he CANNOT truly give up being Iron Man, as he is the face of Avengers 2 and will be a brand Marvel milks long after RDJ is truly done. Thus, Tony's crisis and resolution feels only half-hearted because everyone knows he is coming back.

But they both went for very similar themes in their third and "final" film. I use the term final for Iron Man very loosely.

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:26 PM   #902
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

I'm really getting sick of hearing the excuse "You don't need everything explained, do you?"

No, I don't. But important plot points (yes, I consider Bruce getting back into Gotham an important plot point) have to be given an explanation, even if that explanation is purely visual.

Otherwise, what's the point of the movie? If important developments are gonna occur offscreen just because we know they should happen, who cares? Why not just have Nolan come out on screen and say: "Uh, there's a pit, some explosions, some stuff about embracing fear, oh and young Bruce Willis is Robin."

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:39 PM   #903
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I'm really getting sick of hearing the excuse "You don't need everything explained, do you?"

No, I don't. But important plot points (yes, I consider Bruce getting back into Gotham an important plot point) have to be given an explanation, even if that explanation is purely visual.

Otherwise, what's the point of the movie? If important developments are gonna occur offscreen just because we know they should happen, who cares? Why not just have Nolan come out on screen and say: "Uh, there's a pit, some explosions, some stuff about embracing fear, oh and young Bruce Willis is Robin."
Agreed . People need to learn the difference between spoon-feeding and and things that need to be legitimately explained in the movie. Bruce appearing in Gotham out of the blue was the latter.

What's sad is how easily explained that scene could've been. Even "He is The Goddamn Batman" would've been a legitimate explanation in my book. I can picture Selina asking him "How the hell did you get in?" with shock and Bruce replies with a "Really? Don't you know who I am?" type of face.

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:52 PM   #904
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Agreed . People need to learn the difference between spoon-feeding and and things that need to be legitimately explained in the movie. Bruce appearing in Gotham out of the blue was the latter.

What's sad is how easily explained that scene could've been. Even "He is The Goddamn Batman" would've been a legitimate explanation in my book. I can picture Selina asking him "How the hell did you get in?" with shock and Bruce replies with a "Really? Don't you know who I am?" type of face.
Lmao amazing.

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Old 05-15-2013, 05:08 PM   #905
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

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Agreed . People need to learn the difference between spoon-feeding and and things that need to be legitimately explained in the movie. Bruce appearing in Gotham out of the blue was the latter.

What's sad is how easily explained that scene could've been. Even "He is The Goddamn Batman" would've been a legitimate explanation in my book. I can picture Selina asking him "How the hell did you get in?" with shock and Bruce replies with a "Really? Don't you know who I am?" type of face.
Woah woah wait a minute, haha. So you're saying you'd be okay with Nolan essentially offering a non-explanation in the movie, as long as it's somehow acknowledged?

Not sure I get that. WE already know that he's the Goddamn Batman and Nolan knows we know that. He's well established by this point. That's why some would say that he chose not to spoonfeed there. It's self-explanatory. I think a non-explanation in the movie wouldn't have accomplished much except making Bruce seem cocky to Selena.

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Old 05-15-2013, 06:08 PM   #906
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Yeah, I found that funny, but that's not needed either. He's the goddamn Batman, that should be enough because he's a "ninja", so when it comes to the questions like "how did Batman get into this area" it shouldn't need exposition or visuals. He's a NINJA for crying out loud people.

Not everything has to be spoonfed. And using the argument of "well, Nolan spoonfeeds the people all the time with Alfred exposition!" is a silly argument. And don't say it isn't. When it comes to Bruce's ninja ways that have to do with fighting or hiding or avoiding situations and people, getting into areas that seem impossible to get through...it's not necessary whatsoever. Especially when the character tells another person that he has a way on and off the island. In other words "Im Chris Nolan and im telling you he's the goddamn Batman, he's a ninja, and if Bruce says he has a way off and on then that means HE HAS A WAY OFF AND ON. Which is why he's standing here in Gotham able to speak to Selina."

If people keep thinking this is a plothole, it's not. I suggest watching more action movies, if you really want to see plotholes.

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Old 05-15-2013, 09:02 PM   #907
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Yeah, I found that funny, but that's not needed either. He's the goddamn Batman, that should be enough because he's a "ninja", so when it comes to the questions like "how did Batman get into this area" it shouldn't need exposition or visuals. He's a NINJA for crying out loud people.
And he's also an expert fighter trained in a myriad of different styles, does that mean we don't need to see him fight as well? Surely it's established that he's the goddamn Batman and that should be enough to know that he'll beat any common thug he comes across. So why then do we need to see him take out those thugs who are about to kill Blake?

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Old 05-15-2013, 09:13 PM   #908
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

Seeing Batman fighting and seeing him getting back inside Gotham is an entirely different thing.

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Old 05-15-2013, 09:35 PM   #909
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Woah woah wait a minute, haha. So you're saying you'd be okay with Nolan essentially offering a non-explanation in the movie, as long as it's somehow acknowledged?

Not sure I get that. WE already know that he's the Goddamn Batman and Nolan knows we know that. He's well established by this point. That's why some would say that he chose not to spoonfeed there. It's self-explanatory. I think a non-explanation in the movie wouldn't have accomplished much except making Bruce seem cocky to Selena.
To be honest, Bruce saying he got in because he's "The Goddamn Batman" would still not make any sense but I wouldn't mind it because, well, I may sound a bit biased but I really want to hear someone say that in live-action, either Bruce saying that about himself or someone else saying that about him . If there is one good thing that came from All Star Batman & Robin, it is that line .

You can't just not address that and assume that the audience already think/know he is "The Goddamn Batman". For two reasons:

1) Even in the comics, that line only works when it is meant to be a joke. Whenever it is used for a different purpose than that, it just comes off as PIS and an excuse for writers to be lazy. Going back to TDKR, Nolan making Bruce say that line wouldn't be enough. It would have to be funny to the viewers that Bruce was able to get back into Gotham in order for it to work.

2) I don't think Nolan has earned that right to just let the audience assume that Batman can do certain things just because "he's Batman". That only works for a Batman in his prime with years of experience behind him that has fought most of his villains, has been in the JL, etc. In BB and TDK, Nolan's Batman is still quite young (barely a year into his career) and still needs a heck of a lot more experience before the audience can just assume he can do certain things like that (even in the comics, that logic never worked in Batman's early years). Then after 2 movies that established that fact, we then got a movie whose whole point is that Bruce is crippled & out of shape and where we also learned that he hasn't been Batman for 8 years, which means he only had one year of experience as Batman in his whole life. Basically, Nolan's Batman is not the experienced veteran Batman that Batman is in other versions so that doesn't work here. On the other hand, if it was someone like Bruce Timm's Batman that traveled across the globe and then entered an isolated city without being detected, then that would make a lot more sense and people would accept it a lot easier.

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Old 05-15-2013, 10:17 PM   #910
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Well, this is like the 100th time I've made this argument, but I don't think it has anything to do with how many years he's racked up in the cape and cowl. This is about how he traveled the world without a cent to his name in Batman Begins. I firmly believe that if this hadn't been established in BB, Nolan would've prioritized showing how Bruce got back to Gotham more. As Rian Johnson (director of Looper) said, "I don't need to be shown Bruce hopping a freighter".

That said, Nolan definitely rested on the "he's Batman" thing in TDK with the whole sonar machine. I've yet to hear a solid explanation as to how he managed to get that thing together so quickly, considering Lucius shows him the sonar tech. in the first act.

Maybe this could be considered a slight cheat, but honestly, when Christian Bale has been Batman in the public eye for roughly 7 years- the audience accepts that he is THE Batman. It's just a product of living with the character for extended period of time. It feels like he's been Batman for longer and I think they let that feeling creep into the film a bit, which I agree with. That's why I don't mind the 8 year retirement. Time is a bit blurred in the films. Sure, if you really analyze it you can approximate the math that he only clocked in a year and change in the cowl. But I mean, c'mon after making arguably the two greatest Batman movies of all time, with arguably the greatest on-screen portrayal of Batman by Bale, I fully was willing to give Nolan some license to be like, "He's Batman". Especially when it's the last movie and there'd be no further chances to give him cool, unexplained badass moments like that.

And yeah, "The God Damn Batman" line is absolutely absurd and hilarious. It can only play in a movie if the movie was over the top. Like a campy version of a badass Batman film, ala The Expendables or something.

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Old 05-16-2013, 12:07 AM   #911
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

"Because he's the Goddamn Batman" is a funny reply, BUT...this film, well the trilogy as a whole, answer somethings that makes it feel like TDKR DOESN'T need to answer.

How did Bruce get back to Gotham City? Well, he could have used the same entrance as those Special Forces members...or he could have just traveled his way much like BB, but this time back to Gotham because Bruce is capable of doing this when he left BB without any money.

How can Batman walk on ice? He learned how to fight on ice, so how is he now all of a sudden not capable of walking on it?

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Old 05-16-2013, 12:35 AM   #912
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It's funny, this trilogy feels so interconnected after TDKR and yet, I feel like I still haven't experienced it properly (watched all 3 back to back). I'm really looking forward to doing that marathon, hopefully at some point soon.

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Old 05-16-2013, 10:33 AM   #913
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My point about Bruce traveling the world without identity and money in BB still stands.

So you can assume he hopped a freighter while leaving Gotham. So? What about after that? And after that? For what was it...7 years? You can accept him doing all this crap before he was even Batman, but years later, as Batman, it's a movie killing mistake to not show how he got back into Gotham? As a ninja. As a detective, as THE BATMAN...it's simply a non-issue taken to laughable extremes.

It is mind boggling. Utterly, hopelessly mind boggling people will let all the other inconsistencies of the previous two just wash over them (and not even acknowledge them when they are brought up) while they harp on a non-issue like this.

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Old 05-16-2013, 10:36 AM   #914
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My point about Bruce traveling the world without identity and money in BB still stands.

So you can assume he hopped a freighter while leaving Gotham. So? What about after that? And after that? For what was it...7 years? You can accept him doing all this crap before he was even Batman, but years later, as Batman, it's a movie killing mistake to not show how he got back into Gotham? As a ninja. As a detective, as THE BATMAN...it's simply a non-issue taken to laughable extremes.

It is mind boggling. Utterly, hopelessly mind boggling people will let all the other inconsistencies of the previous two just wash over them (and not even acknowledge them when they are brought up) while they harp on a non-issue like this.
You dont know only Gotham is hard to enter and exit ? The entire world doesnt exists to some people

The man travels all over the world in BB during a bunch of years....silence.

He enters the city he has lived in his life , after being a goddamn superhero for 8 years.....craziness !!!

lol. And the director purposefully show us some cia operative entering Gotham. But naaaah. Batman can't handle the cia magic.

I dont need to see Batman entering Gotham exactly like i dont need to see Joker setting up the bombs in the ferrys.

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Old 05-16-2013, 10:46 AM   #915
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You dont know only Gotham is hard to enter and exit ? The entire world doesnt exists to some people

The man travels all over the world in BB during a bunch of years....silence.

He enters the city he has lived in his life , after being a goddamn superhero for 8 years.....craziness !!!

lol. And the director purposefully show us some cia operative entering Gotham. But naaaah. Batman can't handle the cia magic.

I dont need to see Batman entering Gotham exactly like i dont need to see Joker setting up the bombs in the ferrys.
Or the bombs in the hospital...buildings which are run 24/7 365 by staff.

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Old 05-16-2013, 10:49 AM   #916
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Or the bombs in the hospital...buildings which are run 24/7 365 by staff.
Bombs are easy to smuggle in all kinds of things. Boxes, packages, bed pans, bed sheets, laundry skips, garbage bags etc. It's a hospital not Fort Knox. You're not searched when you go in and out. Given how utterly corrupt Gotham was it would be easy to surmise that there was a few dirty hospital staff on the mob payroll.

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Old 05-16-2013, 10:50 AM   #917
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I say one thing. I've read some user writing this here. Watching Batman getting is groove back would have been cool. Not necessarily how he entered. But showing he was back in the game , and once again resorting to some astute actions.

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:07 AM   #918
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Bombs are easy to smuggle in all kinds of things. Boxes, packages, bed pans, bed sheets, laundry skips, garbage bags etc. It's a hospital not Fort Knox. You're not searched when you go in and out. Given how utterly corrupt Gotham was it would be easy to surmise that there was a few dirty hospital staff on the mob payroll.
Just like it's rather doable for a ninja trained in various forms of combat to sneak into a guarded city?

So your totally fine making excuses for the hospital bombs, but not BATMAN finding his way back into Gotham? Do you see the hypocrisy? Fine, I'm ok with just assuming the Joker had all of Gotham on his payroll, from cops, hospital staff and ferry workers, but Bruce getting back into Gotham!??? WORST. MOVIE. EVER. MADE.

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:12 AM   #919
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Just like it's rather doable for a ninja trained in various forms of combat to sneak into a guarded city?
No, because the movie makes no attempt to explain something as pivotal as that after making such a production that nobody can enter or leave Gotham with the military guarding it and the bridges being blown. Gotham was supposed to be a cut off zone. So how Bruce managed to just saunter in there with no Batman equipment or any equipment at all for that matter is a glaring plot hole.

Whereas TDK makes a point that there's corruption everywhere in Gotham. From the Cops to people in Dent's office. Smuggling some bombs into a public hospital or any place that is not heavily guarded doesn't require any explanation.

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:17 AM   #920
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No, because the movie makes no attempt to explain something as pivotal as that after making such a production that nobody can enter or leave Gotham with the military guarding it and the bridges being blown. Gotham was supposed to be a cut off zone. So how Bruce managed to just saunter in there with no Batman equipment or any equipment at all for that matter is a glaring plot hole.

Whereas TDK makes a point that there's corruption everywhere in Gotham. From the Cops to people in Dent's office. Smuggling some bombs into a public hospital or any place that is not heavily guarded doesn't require any explanation.
And Batman Begins makes it a point to show Bruce as resourceful even before becoming Batman.

Soooo...there ya go.

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:19 AM   #921
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And Batman Begins makes it a point to show Bruce as resourceful even before becoming Batman.
Like what? Being a stow away on a ship leaving the docks? Any idiot could do that. Stealing food on the streets? Joining up with criminal gangs? Getting arrested and thrown in prison?

These are the kind of resourceful acts you mean?

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:22 AM   #922
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My point about Bruce traveling the world without identity and money in BB still stands.

So you can assume he hopped a freighter while leaving Gotham. So? What about after that? And after that? For what was it...7 years? You can accept him doing all this crap before he was even Batman, but years later, as Batman, it's a movie killing mistake to not show how he got back into Gotham? As a ninja. As a detective, as THE BATMAN...it's simply a non-issue taken to laughable extremes.

It is mind boggling. Utterly, hopelessly mind boggling people will let all the other inconsistencies of the previous two just wash over them (and not even acknowledge them when they are brought up) while they harp on a non-issue like this.
Traveling the world is one thing. Bruce had no destination, him hopping on that random freighter on a whim showcases that. We see that he ended up somewhere in Africa or Asia and it's not a leap of logic to assume he traveled that way (stowing on ships, hoping on the back of whatever train he sees, etc) throughout various 3rd world countries. Hell, that's how some actual people living there do it.

But even so, in Begins itself, how did he get BACK to Gotham? He had to call his BUTLER to pick him up in a goddamn PRIVATE JET. Where was his butler and private jet when he climbed out the pit in TDKR?

And as for how he actually got into an occupied city under siege? I don't buy the "He's BATMAN!" excuse. I'm sorry, I just don't. If you do, great, I'm happy for you, but to me, it's poor writing.

Bruce getting back to Gotham is a HUGE plot point - otherwise, what's the point of having him trapped on the other side of the globe in the first place? Resolving that plot point off-screen is cheating. Literally a three second shot of Bruce on the back of some supply truck would have been enough, but instead, we get nothing. Bruce literally just appears in Gotham.

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:23 AM   #923
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Like what? Being a stow away on a ship leaving the docks? Any idiot could do that. Stealing food on the streets? Joining up with criminal gangs? Getting arrested and thrown in prison?

These are the kind of resourceful acts you mean?

No, traveling around the world without identity or money.


Again, the fact this non-issue has riled up people for almost a year is ridiculous.

You have no problem making excuses and assuming things for the other two films, but for some reason Rises just gets everyone's panties in a bunch.

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:25 AM   #924
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Traveling the world is one thing. Bruce had no destination, him hopping on that random freighter on a whim showcases that. We see that he ended up somewhere in Africa or Asia and it's not a leap of logic to assume he traveled that way (stowing on ships, hoping on the back of whatever train he sees, etc) throughout various 3rd world countries. Hell, that's how some actual people living there do it.

But even so, in Begins itself, how did he get BACK to Gotham? He had to call his BUTLER to pick him up in a goddamn PRIVATE JET. Where was his butler and private jet when he climbed out the pit in TDKR?

And as for how he actually got into an occupied city under siege? I don't buy the "He's BATMAN!" excuse. I'm sorry, I just don't. If you do, great, I'm happy for you, but to me, it's poor writing.

Bruce getting back to Gotham is a HUGE plot point - otherwise, what's the point of having him trapped on the other side of the globe in the first place? Resolving that plot point off-screen is cheating. Literally a three second shot of Bruce on the back of some supply truck would have been enough, but instead, we get nothing. Bruce literally just appears in Gotham.
Exactly

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No, traveling around the world without identity or money.
We know how he traveled. He stowed away aboard ships. We know how he survived. He stole food. Then he joined up with criminals. Then he was arrested and put in prison.

Nolan lays out all the little details.

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:39 AM   #925
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But even so, in Begins itself, how did he get BACK to Gotham? He had to call his BUTLER to pick him up in a goddamn PRIVATE JET. Where was his butler and private jet when he climbed out the pit in TDKR?
How do you know he had to ? Was there no other way ? I would say he probably wanted to revisit his old fellow. Why would he randomly smuggle to Gotham in Begins when he has a private jet at his disposable ? The man loves endurance , but there's a limit.

Even in TDK we are shown how resourceful he is entering and exiting Gotham.

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