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View Poll Results: What do you want fixed for the Batman reboot? (multiple votes allowed)
More impressive fight scenes 110 59.14%
"World's greatest detective" better displayed 133 71.51%
More imaginative villains/concepts explored 81 43.55%
More iconic imagery (Gotham/Batmobile/etc) 72 38.71%
Sidekicks included (Robin, Nightwing, Oracle) 65 34.95%
Full extent of Batman's various training better implied (flashbacks?) 32 17.20%
No growling Bat-voice 66 35.48%
Bruce is the mask, Batman is the true face 49 26.34%
Fix the suit (NO RUBBER) 46 24.73%
Fix the suit (BUT USING RUBBER AGAIN) 13 6.99%
No love interest 25 13.44%
No Lucius Fox (Batman does all the brainy work) 30 16.13%
Batman is a more shadowy and mysterious figure 63 33.87%
More BTAS influence 59 31.72%
More Arkham Asylum influence 69 37.10%
More comic book influence (70's-current) 28 15.05%
More memorable theme music 29 15.59%
Moar prep-time!!! (Batman is always a few steps ahead) 37 19.89%
All of the above 9 4.84%
other (please specify below) 14 7.53%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 186. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-08-2013, 05:10 PM   #126
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

What may help more for you is if Batman does it all himself and doesn't need Fox, Alfred or Gordon around. But those elements go back to TLH for me. I like the concept of Batman taking a village and being a construct of many good men. It adds to his mythical appeal to me. However, I realize that other than a few choice stories, that is very against the comics.

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Old 03-08-2013, 05:58 PM   #127
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
Not any more than Nolan's trilogy. Notice that TDK was much better received than Mask of the Phantasm.

There are numerous problems with both. I'll stick to BTAS for now, as someone else already commented on Arkham Asylum.

- Some episodes are downright atrocious (ex. Batman in My Basement, Cat Scratch Fever)
- Until her last couple of appearances Catwoman was reduced to a standard damsel in distress type
- They went with terrible Tim Burton Penguin
- The animated varied widly depending on what animation house did that particular episode
- Many of the more complex villains lose their primary motivations after their origin episodes (ex. Mad Hatter, Two-Face) and just because standard criminals
- Batman isn't any more of a detective than he is in the Nolan films
- Late in the series the supporting cast becomes bloated and Batman's role is reduced in favor of Robin and Batgirl
- Killer Croc is a joke
- Bane is almost as bad
- The show is too childish in many spots and not dark enough.
- The character design after the revamp is wretched for nearly every character (Scarecrow being the main exception). Does anybody think this is a good Joker?


I'd give more examples, but I have to go for the time being. I can list more later if you want.
You are citing the odd weakness in a long running TV show. The point being made is that, as an overall package, BTAS is endorsed by all Batfans as a seminal interpretation of the source material. Respectfully, I don't think any of your points really stick anyway, but even if they did they would only qualify as minor disappointments in the broader context of a masterful adaptation.

Comparing the critical reception of TDK and Mask of the Phantasm is just...strange. It's like saying beef is better than bananas.

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Old 03-08-2013, 05:58 PM   #128
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Not any more than Nolan's trilogy. Notice that TDK was much better received than Mask of the Phantasm.

There are numerous problems with both. I'll stick to BTAS for now, as someone else already commented on Arkham Asylum.

- Some episodes are downright atrocious (ex. Batman in My Basement, Cat Scratch Fever)
- Until her last couple of appearances Catwoman was reduced to a standard damsel in distress type
- They went with terrible Tim Burton Penguin
- The animated varied widly depending on what animation house did that particular episode
- Many of the more complex villains lose their primary motivations after their origin episodes (ex. Mad Hatter, Two-Face) and just because standard criminals
- Batman isn't any more of a detective than he is in the Nolan films
- Late in the series the supporting cast becomes bloated and Batman's role is reduced in favor of Robin and Batgirl
- Killer Croc is a joke
- Bane is almost as bad
- The show is too childish in many spots and not dark enough.
- The character design after the revamp is wretched for nearly every character (Scarecrow being the main exception). Does anybody think this is a good Joker?


I'd give more examples, but I have to go for the time being. I can list more later if you want.
Thank you. Glad to know I'm not the only one that doesn't think BTAS is perfect.

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Old 03-08-2013, 07:29 PM   #129
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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I actually find a young man lost in anger throwing away his life by 21 to learn a number of unknown skills (he had been lost for 7 years before he met Ra's Al Ghul in BB and clearly had studied martial arts, thievery and other unknown practices) a little more plausible as a human reaction than one who makes a vow at 8 and never grows a little perspective and realizes just how childish that vow could be perceived as.
It kind of isn‘t any more plausible, though. Psychologically, the original core concept is actually more believeable in some ways. The reason the original concept works is that as a child, he makes an emotional commitment he cannot hope to understand the complexity of. As an adult, he is still driven by this emotional commitment that he has carried his entire life. The man is essentially damaged. Obsessed. From a young age. You see real psychological impact on people like this in the real world from a young age about various things due to traumas, and other issues.

In some ways, its a bit more realistic than a man suddenly deciding at 21 to adopt the methods he does and the guise of a bat, and even to wage a one man war on crime, with the reasoning ability of an adult, but not the prior emotional "compulsion".

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Complaining that Nolan chose to show a more plausible depiction of an angry man coming to realize he will become Batman in his 20s, as opposed to making a vow at 8 and never wavering in his entire life questioning that thought, is a nitpick to me.
I really don’t think such a huge change to the mythos can really be considered a “nitpick”.

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Saying we never got "shadowy" Batman when the original complaints of BB was the fight scenes, to create the illusion of a shadowy creature coming from all angles, were too confusing is a nitpick. Especially when Nolan shows fights in the sequels and is criticized by fans for it.
Fans critique the execution. Not the attempt.

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Another way to put it is when Nolan first came on, fans were ecstatic that he so heavily drew from Year One for BB. In TDK, he heavily drew from The Long Halloween and he made The Joker scarier and Harvey Dent a tragic hero, which also got applause. But fans get tired of the same vision and by the third, which also drew heavily from No Man's Land and included a near panel-by-panel recreation of the one great scene in Knightsfall, people were tired of it and began obsessing over mostly cosmetic changes (the Joker wears make-up, Batman has a gravely voice, Catwoman doesn't have a cowl and is only called "The Cat," etc.).
I don’t think any of them really drew “heavily” from any one source. The similarities to YEAR ONE, THE LONG HALLOWEEN and KNIGHTFALL and NO MAN’S LAND are actually fairly minimal, and mostly background elements to the larger story. The films consist large of new material, and the “nods” are from many different comics as well as homages to other films.

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Old 03-08-2013, 07:40 PM   #130
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Nolan movies > BTAS

BTAS is more "Batman". But the Nolan movies reach heights that no other interpretation of Batman has ever reached.

In my opinion, of course.

(Long Halloween is up there as well)

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Old 03-08-2013, 07:47 PM   #131
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Nolan movies > BTAS

BTAS is more "Batman". But the Nolan movies reach heights that no other interpretation of Batman has ever reached.

In my opinion, of course.

(Long Halloween is up there as well)
I'd honestly rank a lot of things above BTAS (if we're including the comics here). Especially the Arkham games. They're what I hope the reboot will go for tonally. BTAS is just a bit silly for me and the Arkham games are like if you took that universe and made it serious (but the Bane sucks in both, Paul Dini really can't write him).

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Old 03-08-2013, 08:12 PM   #132
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Arkham Asylum is hit and miss with how it handles its villains. Joker, Killer Croc, Scarecrow, Hugo Strange and Penguin are great. Ra's Al Ghul, Zsasz, Bane, Two-Face, and Mad Hatter are terrible.

Two-Face and especially Ra's Al Ghul are tremendously disappointing, since they were great in BTAS.


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Old 03-08-2013, 08:14 PM   #133
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Nolan movies > BTAS

BTAS is more "Batman". But the Nolan movies reach heights that no other interpretation of Batman has ever reached.

In my opinion, of course.

(Long Halloween is up there as well)
I feel BTAS grasps Batman and what makes the character timeless in ways Nolan can only dream of doing.

There are so many moments in BTAS where I become enamored with the character and the Bat-world over and over again.

There's a reason it's considered the best cartoon of all time by far. They obvious studied the best comics and Burton movies to see what makes Batman a great character and why he resonated with fans then amplified those details 20 fold.

The character/city design, voice casting, additions to the mythos, music, storytelling, dialogue, etc are all near flawless in execution. The show and the creators cannot be praised enough.

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Old 03-08-2013, 08:18 PM   #134
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Arkham Asylum is hit and miss with how it handles its villains. Joker, Killer Croc, Scarecrow, Hugo Strange and Penguin are great. Ra's Al Ghul, Zsasz, Bane, Two-Face, and Mad Hatter are terrible.
Agreed, though I liked Mad Hatter.

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Old 03-08-2013, 08:22 PM   #135
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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I feel BTAS grasps Batman and what makes the character timeless in ways Nolan can only dream of doing.

There are so many moments in BTAS where I become enamored with the character and the Bat-world over and over again.

There's a reason it's considered the best cartoon of all time by far. They obvious studied the best comics and Burton movies to see what makes Batman a great character and why he resonated with fans then amplified those details 20 fold.

The character/city design, voice casting, additions to the mythos, music, storytelling, dialogue, etc are all near flawless in execution. The show and the creators cannot be praised enough.
Yeah. Like I said, it's more "Batman" than the Nolan movies. I don't think that makes it better though.

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Old 03-08-2013, 08:24 PM   #136
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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I feel BTAS grasps Batman and what makes the character timeless in ways Nolan can only dream of doing.

There are so many moments in BTAS where I become enamored with the character and the Bat-world over and over again.

There's a reason it's considered the best cartoon of all time by far. They obvious studied the best comics and Burton movies to see what makes Batman a great character and why he resonated with fans then amplified those details 20 fold.

The character/city design, voice casting, additions to the mythos, music, storytelling, dialogue, etc are all near flawless in execution. The show and the creators cannot be praised enough.
Not a chance in hell. That would be The Simpsons. The Simpsons in its prime years dwarfs any other cartoon series ever made in terms of quality and popularity.

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Old 03-08-2013, 08:25 PM   #137
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Not a chance in hell. That would be The Simpsons. The Simpsons in its prime years dwarfs any other cartoon series ever made in terms of quality and popularity.
Apples and Oranges

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Old 03-08-2013, 08:28 PM   #138
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Apples and Oranges
They are both cartoons which was the statement given.

He didn't say superhero cartoons. And even then a case could be made that Justice League, Spectacular Spider-Man, and Avengers: EMH were just as good, at least in terms of quality.


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Old 03-08-2013, 08:47 PM   #139
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Personally, I think one man mastering all those skills is ridiculous. Not studying, but being the world's greatest at all of the above is akin to a Greek demigod. That is why I actually prefer the Batman of stories like TLH, DV and YO where he makes mistakes. Ironically the same writer of the last one created the "Bat-God" in The Dark Knight Returns.

I actually find a young man lost in anger throwing away his life by 21 to learn a number of unknown skills (he had been lost for 7 years before he met Ra's Al Ghul in BB and clearly had studied martial arts, thievery and other unknown practices) a little more plausible as a human reaction than one who makes a vow at 8 and never grows a little perspective and realizes just how childish that vow could be perceived as. Batman as a culmination of struggle as opposed to the pre-ordained destination of an 8 year old is preferable to me.

Beyond that though, while I do wish more of the Batman's cunning was on display in the films, especially in terms of detective works, I do not want another origin or even flashbacks to one when showing him with a chemistry set at 12 or on a gymnastics vault at 11 adds little to the fact that he is Batman by the story's meat. As I doubt we are going to spend a whole film of him training with Zatanna and touring Asia, it does seem main thrust. Just my opinion.
That's because your stuck on realism.

A child who uses his extreme wealth and good genetics to travel the world and train to master skills to one day become nearly unmatched in every crime fighting ability. That might be unrealistic in a Tom Clancy novel but in DC universe it's one of the most grounded and reasonable concepts.

Batman doesn't need to be completely plausible. It's more important to be a timeless and awe-inspiring myth than be believable.

"Bat-god" isn't perfect but he's closer than any other crime fighter could get.

That's the point. He is the culmination of our greatest hopes of what a crime fighter could be, what we could be, if the criminal world took away everything that truly mattered to us. It has nothing to do with what is likely to ever happen.

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Old 03-08-2013, 08:48 PM   #140
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Nolan movies > BTAS
Boom. Agreed.

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Old 03-08-2013, 08:54 PM   #141
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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They are both cartoons which was the statement given.

He didn't say superhero cartoons. And even then a case could be made that Justice League, Spectacular Spider-Man, and Avengers: EMH were just as good, at least in terms of quality.
While those cartoons were fun they never had the depth or ambition of BTAS. Not even close.

The Simpsons was funny in it's height. Really funny. But it's debatable if it is better at storytelling or compelling television as the best BTAS episodes.

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Old 03-08-2013, 09:06 PM   #142
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Nolan movies > BTAS
No.....just no. BTAS serviced the Batman mythology far better than any of the movies have, including Nolan's.

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Old 03-08-2013, 09:16 PM   #143
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Boom. Agreed.
I'll go beyond that and say TDK in particular is the best Batman story told in any medium, ever.

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Old 03-08-2013, 09:35 PM   #144
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No.....just no. BTAS serviced the Batman mythology far better than any of the movies have, including Nolan's.
Good stories > Batman mythology

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Old 03-08-2013, 09:40 PM   #145
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Good stories > Batman mythology
Yeah and BTAS had tons of them.

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Old 03-08-2013, 09:50 PM   #146
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Yeah and BTAS had tons of them.
Yup, tons. How quickly some forget.

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Old 03-08-2013, 10:20 PM   #147
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Personally, I'm not forgetting what B:TAS has done at all, but I just prefer TDK trilogy over it. That shouldn't mean anything bad or awful towards B:TAS at all. One day I hope to see a Superman film series that I like better than S:TAS as well or a Spider-Man film series be better than The Spectacular Spider-Man.

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Old 03-08-2013, 10:20 PM   #148
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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And the TAS-M 2 suit isn't as good, for thematic reasons. The first suit fit with the "grounded" idea Webb was trying to create and that idea has to be thrown out with the new suit now.
I don't think you understand what Webb meant when he said he wanted to make a more grounded universe. He meant he wanted a universe where the characters act and feel more real but it's still as out there as your standard comic book movie in terms of how believable it is and in terms of costumes.

You're thinking of "grounded" with your Nolan cap on. TASM is realistic but not realistic in the sense that they're going to tone down the sci-fi and fantasy elements of Spider-Man (and that's not to say that what Nolan did was wrong).

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How does he find way better materials on his salary of literally nothing then?
Three possibilities:
1) The Daily Bugle
2) Gwen makes it for him.
2) It's not so much that he buys better materials but gets better at making costumes.


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Imo, it's simply not enough to remember of the old suit. A few ideas from the old says nothing about keeping the essential idea of the old suit.
Fair enough. But I could say the same thing about Raimi's suit. A few ideas from the Raimi suit says nothing about copying the Raimi suit. Like I said, the only things they have in common are the raised webbing and the honeycomb texture and even the honeycomb texture looks different than the one in the Raimi movies.

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And that's what it is. A cheap spandex suit that wouldn't look great on a film.
That's exactly what I said. Reason it's not a good example of the suit from the comics not working on film is for 2 reasons:

1) Suit from the comics is not spandex like the DE suit but fabric. Just because it's drawn like spandex doesn't mean it is spandex.

2) It is a cheap suit from a low budget movie. Imagine what suit you can do with a high budget Hollywood movie.

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The Asylum/City fabric is more of armor than fabric.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
It is fabric. It does have armor on some areas but the grey part is fabric. You can even clearly see his skin underneath whenever the suit gets damaged.

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Yah...I don't like any of these examples, lol.
Fair enough.

20 bucks though that someone in any of those suits with all of Batman's abilities ever attacks the average Joe from the shadows (God forbid lol), the guy will be more scared than he would be if someone dressed in the Nolan or Burton suit were to attack him (from the shadows, that is. Not in broad daylight).

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I don't see "Hollywood" trying to make some spandex suit for Batman, and especially fabric for that matter.
My point is that they should. And what I keep telling you over and over again is that the suit from the comics is NOT spandex.


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Old 03-08-2013, 10:39 PM   #149
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I don't think you understand what Webb meant when he said he wanted to make a more grounded universe. He meant he wanted a universe where the characters act and feel more real but it's still as out there as your standard comic book movie in terms of how believable it is and in terms of costumes.

You're thinking of "grounded" with your Nolan cap on. TASM is realistic but not realistic in the sense that they're going to tone down the sci-fi and fantasy elements of Spider-Man (and that's not to say that what Nolan did was wrong).
No, I know what I mean...Marc Webb mentioned many times how he wanted the TAS-M suit to have this "grounded" approach of how a kid like Peter Peter could make a suit, could make the web-shooters and what not without it having to look quite so fancy as you see in the comics. That logic is completely thrown out when looking at the new suit.

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Three possibilities:
1) The Daily Bugle
2) Gwen makes it for him.
2) It's not so much that he buys better materials but gets better at making costumes.
So far 1 doesn't look like it's happening right now, 3 would imply that he does have better materials when just comparing the two suits and 2 would just feel odd that Gwen helps him with the suit.

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Fair enough. But I could say the same thing about Raimi's suit. A few ideas from the Raimi suit says nothing about copying the Raimi suit. Like I said, the only
A few things is what Webb kept with his suit as it's basically the Raimi suit using the same idea of very noticeable raised webbing and the honeycomb fabric. Those ideas are from Raimi and Webb doesn't bother to change that.

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That's exactly what I said. Reason it's not a good example of the suit from the comics not working on film is for 2 reasons:

1) Suit from the comics is not spandex like the DE suit but fabric. Just because it's drawn like spandex doesn't mean it is spandex.

2) It is a cheap suit from a low budget movie. Imagine what suit you can do with a high budget Hollywood movie.
I imagine something that doesn't look like spandex or even fabric, lol.

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It is fabric. It does have armor on some areas but the grey part is fabric. You can even clearly see his skin underneath whenever the suit gets damaged and ripped.
The grey part is armor as you can see what looks to be drilled holes where everything connects. It's not the robotic-looking suit that you can get with challenges as Bats, but it's still armor. I don't see how the grey can be called fabric.

And seeing skin doesn't really matter...Nolan's Batman is supposedly wearing some kind of armor as well but bullets and knives can go right through it.

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Fair enough.

20 bucks though that someone in any of those suits with all of Batman's abilities ever attacks the average Joe from the shadows (God forbid lol), the guy will be more scared than he would be if someone dressed in the Nolan or Burton suit were to attack him (from the shadows, that is. Not in broad daylight).
I would challenge you with that bet if it were to ever happen.

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My point is that they should. And what I keep telling you over and over again is that the suit from the comics is NOT spandex.
Yes, we know. You keep saying the comics suit is some kind of fabric which still isn't good enough.

To keep in topic though:

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The Post-Crisis version of the bodysuit is not constructed from simple fabric, but from fictional advanced materials that gives it resistance to tearing. In addition, the suit also contains various defense and protection mechanisms layered into the suit's fabric. The basic version of the Batsuit is insulated against electricity and is mildly fire resistant.
Nolan did the best thing possible to actually have a material for his batsuits that the comics have as fictional material.

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Old 03-08-2013, 10:43 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
It kind of isn‘t any more plausible, though. Psychologically, the original core concept is actually more believeable in some ways. The reason the original concept works is that as a child, he makes an emotional commitment he cannot hope to understand the complexity of. As an adult, he is still driven by this emotional commitment that he has carried his entire life. The man is essentially damaged. Obsessed. From a young age. You see real psychological impact on people like this in the real world from a young age about various things due to traumas, and other issues.

In some ways, its a bit more realistic than a man suddenly deciding at 21 to adopt the methods he does and the guise of a bat, and even to wage a one man war on crime, with the reasoning ability of an adult, but not the prior emotional "compulsion".
Fair argument. However, I find the comics choose more to romanticize it where he appears more like Thessaurus than the crazy man of Frank Miller and Tim Burton. I'd even argue Nolan is more open to that reading of Batman being so traumatized that he is stuck in a form of arrested development, as TDKR is about him overcoming that binary, adolescent view of the world. But still a fair counter argument.


Quote:
I don’t think any of them really drew “heavily” from any one source. The similarities to YEAR ONE, THE LONG HALLOWEEN and KNIGHTFALL and NO MAN’S LAND are actually fairly minimal, and mostly background elements to the larger story. The films consist large of new material, and the “nods” are from many different comics as well as homages to other films.
Disagree. Compare that to any other superhero film made prior to 2008 (the MCU) and you really couldn't name major story influences beyond origins on any of them, save perhaps ASM#50 on SM2. Nolan was influenced very much by the ideas of escalation and the encroachment of the freaks over the mafia establishment from TLH and DV in TDK. So much so that he took the same central spine for his story--the tragedy and downfall of Harvey Dent. He tailored it to be his own story and to make it directly about Batman vs. the Joker which inadvertently leads to Two-Face as opposed to having a whole rogue's gallery and a "Calendar Killer," but the same thematic juice is there. The second act of BB basically is a short form version of Year One.

For a film this was a huge deal they used comic book influences beyond the origin and basic character dynamics. But now that it is starting to become the norm, it is being written off. I actually appreciate this series took seminal works of Batman mythos and refigured them for the cinematic medium. It has been more successful to me than carbon copies like perhaps Snyder would endorse.

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