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View Poll Results: What do you want fixed for the Batman reboot? (multiple votes allowed)
More impressive fight scenes 110 59.14%
"World's greatest detective" better displayed 133 71.51%
More imaginative villains/concepts explored 81 43.55%
More iconic imagery (Gotham/Batmobile/etc) 72 38.71%
Sidekicks included (Robin, Nightwing, Oracle) 65 34.95%
Full extent of Batman's various training better implied (flashbacks?) 32 17.20%
No growling Bat-voice 66 35.48%
Bruce is the mask, Batman is the true face 49 26.34%
Fix the suit (NO RUBBER) 46 24.73%
Fix the suit (BUT USING RUBBER AGAIN) 13 6.99%
No love interest 25 13.44%
No Lucius Fox (Batman does all the brainy work) 30 16.13%
Batman is a more shadowy and mysterious figure 63 33.87%
More BTAS influence 59 31.72%
More Arkham Asylum influence 69 37.10%
More comic book influence (70's-current) 28 15.05%
More memorable theme music 29 15.59%
Moar prep-time!!! (Batman is always a few steps ahead) 37 19.89%
All of the above 9 4.84%
other (please specify below) 14 7.53%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 186. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-08-2013, 10:45 PM   #151
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Personally, I think one man mastering all those skills is ridiculous. Not studying, but being the world's greatest at all of the above is akin to a Greek demigod. That is why I actually prefer the Batman of stories like TLH, DV and YO where he makes mistakes. Ironically the same writer of the last one created the "Bat-God" in The Dark Knight Returns.

I actually find a young man lost in anger throwing away his life by 21 to learn a number of unknown skills (he had been lost for 7 years before he met Ra's Al Ghul in BB and clearly had studied martial arts, thievery and other unknown practices) a little more plausible as a human reaction than one who makes a vow at 8 and never grows a little perspective and realizes just how childish that vow could be perceived as. Batman as a culmination of struggle as opposed to the pre-ordained destination of an 8 year old is preferable to me.

Beyond that though, while I do wish more of the Batman's cunning was on display in the films, especially in terms of detective works, I do not want another origin or even flashbacks to one when showing him with a chemistry set at 12 or on a gymnastics vault at 11 adds little to the fact that he is Batman by the story's meat. As I doubt we are going to spend a whole film of him training with Zatanna and touring Asia, it does seem main thrust. Just my opinion.
Like someone else already said, that's because you're stuck on realism and on the idea that Batman is supposed to be realistic when that is not the case at all.

Him mastering all those skills is exactly what makes Batman one of the greatest and most heroic superheroes created from an objective point of view. He is the one man who pushed himself beyond human limits and became something as larger than life as someone like Superman.

He isn't just a guy dressed like a bat that did some ninja training, read a few books, and decided to fight crime. He is, as you described him, akin to a Greek demigod and that is the whole point. That's why he fits and works so well with Superman, why they consider each other to be brothers, and why they're the heads of the DC universe.

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Old 03-08-2013, 10:45 PM   #152
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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No.....just no. BTAS serviced the Batman mythology far better than any of the movies have, including Nolan's.
I think it is a silly comparison. One, like comics, is long-form storytelling and the other is the very finite limited setting of a trilogy. I think the Nolan series did a few things, especially in regards to the mafia and Harvey Dent, that BTAS couldn't. But TAS is not limited by physical limitations and can easily incorporate the grim with the absurd for striking visuals while also covering a range of story possibilities, such as the Bat-family, that a trilogy is just too confined to appropriately tackle.

I think one can compare Begins with Phantasm, but beyond that it becomes too obtuse of a comparison.

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Old 03-08-2013, 10:52 PM   #153
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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That's because your stuck on realism.
Not really. I always rolled my eyes, even as a kid, at all the panels that either reprinted or evoked "the vow" from the original Detective Comics origin telling (I forget which issue it is). The idea that he saw a bat fly through a window and knew he would be Batman from that night forward without a moment's hesitation always seems overly simplistic. Yes, Batman can be simple. But he works better when there are some layers. I do not care for bland cardboard heroes from the Golden Age. This scene is a relic of that. Batman can be an amazing feat of will power while having some correspondence to humanity in his inception beyond the lack of powers.

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A child who uses his extreme wealth and good genetics to travel the world and train to master skills to one day become nearly unmatched in every crime fighting ability. That might be unrealistic in a Tom Clancy novel but in DC universe it's one of the most grounded and reasonable concepts.
You may dislike me for saying this, but I always prefer Batman as separated from the rest of the DC verse. I am fine with him fighting Man-Bats, Killer Crocs and a guy with a freeze gun--think even Arkham and TAS--but I never really cared for the concept of Batman battling Darkseid and universe-threatening semi-gods alongside Superman and Wonder Woman. Aside from that, I again think Batman being a gradual build instead of an overnight decision is just more interesting from a narrative standpoint. It has more drama and human interest.

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Batman doesn't need to be completely plausible. It's more important to be a timeless and awe-inspiring myth than be believable.
Agreed. But I think the character is more interesting when it creates the illusion of a pseudo-reality. Versimilitude, if you will. It just creates more interesting stories and concepts to me.

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Old 03-08-2013, 11:03 PM   #154
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Batman Begins > any Batman origin story.

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Old 03-09-2013, 05:44 AM   #155
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Nolan movies > BTAS

BTAS is more "Batman". But the Nolan movies reach heights that no other interpretation of Batman has ever reached.

In my opinion, of course.

(Long Halloween is up there as well)
Respectfully, exposure to a broader range of material might change your mind. The Nolan trilogy only really chews over storylines that have all recurred in the comics many times. You might argue that its tonal presentation is original, though I think that is one of its weakest features.

The Long Halloween is not a particularly great comicbook. It is constantly cited on boards like this, because it is always available as a trade paper back, and people tend to have read it. Like most of Jeph Loeb's stories, all it really does is squeeze as many characters as possible into one story, with a mystery element to weave it together. It's competent and nicely drawn by Tim Sale (if you enjoy that style) but it is hardly seminal.

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I'd honestly rank a lot of things above BTAS (if we're including the comics here). Especially the Arkham games. They're what I hope the reboot will go for tonally. BTAS is just a bit silly for me and the Arkham games are like if you took that universe and made it serious (but the Bane sucks in both, Paul Dini really can't write him).
Bane wasn't very well written in TDKR, either. He's an anarchist/strategist, just like TDK's Joker. On paper, their lines could be interchangeable. The difference is the poorly drawn connection with Talia, which is one of the low points in the trilogy. I have the merest suspicion that TDKR was originally intended as a straight sequel to TDK, with The Joker precipitating the "No Man's Land" story in place of Bane.

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They are both cartoons which was the statement given.

He didn't say superhero cartoons. And even then a case could be made that Justice League, Spectacular Spider-Man, and Avengers: EMH were just as good, at least in terms of quality.
I don't think it would be a very successful case.

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I'll go beyond that and say TDK in particular is the best Batman story told in any medium, ever.
The last two major storylines in "Batman" comic were both better. TDK's strength rests heavily on The Joker, and a brilliant performance by Heath Ledger. Otherwise, it is just a matter of The Joker tearing up Gotham, mashed together with a fairly flimsy retelling of Two Face's origin story. It's well synthesized into a movie, but it isn't original and the elements have been more convincingly told elsewhere before.

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Good stories > Batman mythology
That's an absurd statement. You might as well say "good plays > Shakespeare".

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Old 03-09-2013, 05:49 AM   #156
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Originally Posted by FeedOnATreeFrog View Post
Batman Begins > any Batman origin story.
It is basically a retelling of "Year One" with Ra's al Ghul and the Scarecrow inserted in order to give it more mass appeal.

Nothing wrong with the film at all but, again, it is just a reworking of already existing stories. You can argue that it fuses all the elements together to the best effect, but the fact remains that it wouldn't exist without other people's work to borrow.

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Old 03-09-2013, 11:38 AM   #157
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It is basically a retelling of "Year One" with Ra's al Ghul and the Scarecrow inserted in order to give it more mass appeal.

Nothing wrong with the film at all but, again, it is just a reworking of already existing stories. You can argue that it fuses all the elements together to the best effect, but the fact remains that it wouldn't exist without other people's work to borrow.
I'm not saying that it would exist without these other works. Doesn't change the fact that I think It's better

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Old 03-09-2013, 01:01 PM   #158
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Which is fine: it is just a synthesis that you consider to be more refined.

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Old 03-09-2013, 01:04 PM   #159
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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No, I know what I mean...Marc Webb mentioned many times how he wanted the TAS-M suit to have this "grounded" approach of how a kid like Peter Peter could make a suit, could make the web-shooters and what not without it having to look quite so fancy as you see in the comics. That logic is completely thrown out when looking at the new suit.
He said that about the first suit. Obviously Peter's first suit won't look so fancy since it's his first attempt at making one. Webb also said that he plans on making the costume look more and more professional with each sequel. So while the costume does start out as "grounded" and cheap/non-fancy looking, the plan to begin with was to never keep it that way. Even if Webb had a different design intended originally than the new one, it would've still looked different from the first suit and would've still looked more professional. Nolan did this too BTW. TDK and TDKR are not as grounded as BB. Every movie was less grounded than the last one.

And like I said, a more professional looking suit can be explained through either Peter getting a job at the Bugle or Gwen making it for him.

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So far 1 doesn't look like it's happening right now, 3 would imply that he does have better materials when just comparing the two suits and 2 would just feel odd that Gwen helps him with the suit.
1 does look like it's happening. Set photos show tons of Daily Bugle ads and cars on set and we even have set photos of Peter staring at the logo of a Daily Bugle car.

Why would 2 feel odd? MJ did it all the time for him in the comics (both 616 and Ultimate). Black Cat sometimes helped him with his suit too when he dated her. It's not that odd of a thing with Spidey.

3 is dependent on 1 and/or 2.

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A few things is what Webb kept with his suit as it's basically the Raimi suit using the same idea of very noticeable raised webbing and the honeycomb fabric. Those ideas are from Raimi and Webb doesn't bother to change that.
That's the only thing they have in common though. The raised webbing is something the TASM suit had too and the honeycomb fabric doesn't look exactly the same either and is a bit more visible.

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I imagine something that doesn't look like spandex or even fabric, lol.
Then you have Hollywood's poor imagination .

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The grey part is armor as you can see what looks to be drilled holes where everything connects. It's not the robotic-looking suit that you can get with challenges as Bats, but it's still armor. I don't see how the grey can be called fabric.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


The drilled holes are to connect the fabric material with other materials underneath that are there to prevent damage to the chest and abdomen area but it's still not necessarily armor that he is wearing. Notice how you can see his muscles and abs through the material.



Also remember that in Arkham Asylum, you had the option of choosing between the "classic suit" or the "armored suit" for the challenge missions.

Fabric does not necessarily look like cheap spandex or even like Spider-Man's suit or Superman's suit. There are different types of fabric, some a lot more thick and resistible than others. That's the fabric I'm talking about (and that fabric weighs a lot less than heavy rubber or armor btw).

There is also a material called "fabric armor" which is fabric that is as effective as real armor but weighs a lot less, as well as liquid fabric which protects the wearer from things like knives and bullets. Both these things are pretty expensive though which I imagine won't be a problem for Bruce.


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And seeing skin doesn't really matter...Nolan's Batman is supposedly wearing some kind of armor as well but bullets and knives can go right through it.
The armored suit never had bullets or knives go through it. Talia did manage to stab him but that was because she stabbed him in a spot where there wasn't any armor covering that body part.



As you can see, the suit isn't completely armor. It's more like 90% armor. There are spots in the abdomen area where you can stab him if Batman isn't paying attention and if you're skilled enough to do so (which was the case with Talia in TDKR).

The AA/AC suit on the other hand is mostly fabric with some armored parts.

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Yes, we know. You keep saying the comics suit is some kind of fabric which still isn't good enough.
How so? Like I stated several posts ago, it's more realistic for Batman to wear fabric as opposed to armor :/.

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To keep in topic though:



Nolan did the best thing possible to actually have a material for his batsuits that the comics have as fictional material.
The fictional material from the comics is still a type of fabric and looks very similar to fabric. What I mean by it being similar to fabric is that if you would touch it with your hand, it would feel like fabric. The fact that it provides different functions and is more resistible does not mean it looks like something we've never seen or can't comprehend visually.

Plus, I don't see why Nolan couldn't have used fabric and have it be the same fictional material in the universe he created. It's not that far out there from the things Nolan used if you think about it. We've had all the crazy advanced tech from Lucius, the water machine, Scarecrow's fear gas, Bane's drug, etc. You could've used a more fictional material that looks like fabric and it wouldn't have been that out of place IMO.

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Old 03-09-2013, 01:14 PM   #160
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

1) I'd like the next film to be more of a swashbuckling adventure film than a gritty crime drama.

2) The inclusion of Dick Grayson. Not necessarily as Batman's partner (or former partner), but I'd like to see him included in some way.

3) An aesthetic that leans a little bit more towards "cool" than "practical/functional." Ideally, there would be a mix of the two.

I'll think of more later.

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Old 03-09-2013, 03:13 PM   #161
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
He said that about the first suit. Obviously Peter's first suit won't look so fancy since it's his first attempt at making one. Webb also said that he plans on making the costume look more and more professional with each sequel. So while the costume does start out as "grounded" and cheap/non-fancy looking, the plan to begin with was to never keep it that way. Even if Webb had a different design intended originally than the new one, it would've still looked different from the first suit and would've still looked more professional. Nolan did this too BTW. TDK and TDKR are not as grounded as BB. Every movie was less grounded than the last one.

And like I said, a more professional looking suit can be explained through either Peter getting a job at the Bugle or Gwen making it for him.
I know Webb said that with the first suit, but by looking at the second suit, that shows the idea of something that a kid could make is thrown out the window when even looking at the new webshooters. Why have an idea for just ONE film when Raimi obviously didn't bother to go that route for only ONE film?

And what do you mean Nolan did it too? The ideas are essentially the same with both suits being from Wayne Enterprises that Lucius Fox had made.

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1 does look like it's happening. Set photos show tons of Daily Bugle ads and cars on set and we even have set photos of Peter staring at the logo of a Daily Bugle car.
And that automatically means Peter is working for the Daily Bugle? No, it does not.

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Why would 2 feel odd? MJ did it all the time for him in the comics (both 616 and Ultimate). Black Cat sometimes helped him with his suit too when he dated her. It's not that odd of a thing with Spidey.

3 is dependent on 1 and/or 2.
It's odd when it's a thing MJ should be doing, not Gwen Stacy. Hence why I said it'd be odd.

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That's the only thing they have in common though. The raised webbing is something the TASM suit had too and the honeycomb fabric doesn't look exactly the same either and is a bit more visible.
The "only thing" is the biggest thing that Webb should have changed as it's the entire fabric of the suit.

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Then you have Hollywood's poor imagination .
No, it's the one thing Hollywood actually knows better than to give a human being just some regular fabric.

Quote:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


The drilled holes are to connect the fabric material with other materials underneath that are there to prevent damage to the chest and abdomen area but it's still not necessarily armor that he is wearing. Notice how you can see his muscles and abs through the material.



Also remember that in Arkham Asylum, you had the option of choosing between the "classic suit" or the "armored suit" for the challenge missions.

Fabric does not necessarily look like cheap spandex or even like Spider-Man's suit or Superman's suit. There are different types of fabric, some a lot more thick and resistible than others. That's the fabric I'm talking about (and that fabric weighs a lot less than heavy rubber or armor btw).

There is also a material called "fabric armor" which is fabric that is as effective as real armor but weighs a lot less, as well as liquid fabric which protects the wearer from things like knives and bullets. Both these things are pretty expensive though which I imagine won't be a problem for Bruce.
I do not call it just fabric. While there is a version of an "Armored suit", it's like a high fashion armored suit where the Asylum/City regular suit looks like an armor that Nolan gave his Batman. So, no, I don't buy that being a fabric.

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The armored suit never had bullets or knives go through it. Talia did manage to stab him but that was because she stabbed him in a spot where there wasn't any armor covering that body part.



As you can see, the suit isn't completely armor. It's more like 90% armor. There are spots in the abdomen area where you can stab him if Batman isn't paying attention and if you're skilled enough to do so (which was the case with Talia in TDKR).
Didn't have anything like bullets or knives go through it, huh?

The Joker stabbed him twice and it's not clear where it goes through as opposed to where Talia stabbed him; Dent shot him and it's not clear where it goes; and a "big dog" bit right through his ARMOR on his BB suit.

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How so? Like I stated several posts ago, it's more realistic for Batman to wear fabric as opposed to armor :/.
Didn't seem that way with Nolan's trilogy

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The fictional material from the comics is still a type of fabric and looks very similar to fabric. What I mean by it being similar to fabric is that if you would touch it with your hand, it would feel like fabric. The fact that it provides different functions and is more resistible does not mean it looks like something we've never seen or can't comprehend visually.

Plus, I don't see why Nolan couldn't have used fabric and have it be the same fictional material in the universe he created. It's not that far out there from the things Nolan used if you think about it. We've had all the crazy advanced tech from Lucius, the water machine, Scarecrow's fear gas, Bane's drug, etc. You could've used a more fictional material that looks like fabric and it wouldn't have been that out of place IMO.
I am glad Nolan went with something that didn't feel like some fabric as that would be silly. I said it before, and I'll continue to say that as well.

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Old 03-09-2013, 03:41 PM   #162
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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The drilled holes are to connect the fabric material with other materials underneath that are there to prevent damage to the chest and abdomen area but it's still not necessarily armor that he is wearing. Notice how you can see his muscles and abs through the material.
It's armor. I think the suit up sequences show this pretty well. And the upgrades in both games are for better/upgraded armor.

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Old 03-09-2013, 03:43 PM   #163
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Here's a tiny nitpick that I want fixed in future movies:

No more Batman standing there with his mouth half-open.

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Old 03-09-2013, 03:44 PM   #164
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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It's armor. I think the suit up sequences show this pretty well. And the upgrades in both games are for better/upgraded armor.
Thank you.

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Here's a tiny nitpick that I want fixed in future movies:

No more Batman standing there with his mouth half-open.
With a better cowl that doesn't suffocate the actor, this won't even happen.

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Old 03-09-2013, 03:47 PM   #165
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Thank you.



With a better cowl that doesn't suffocate the actor, this won't even happen.
I'm just curious, how do you know this was the reason?

Did Bale say something about it?

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Old 03-09-2013, 03:49 PM   #166
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Yes he did, and numerous times as well.

The last time was about filming for TDKR and saying he was getting sick while trying to breath through his mouth since the TDK cowl doesn't have an opening for his nose and while filming with the fake snow, it would tighten the suit around his neck.

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Old 03-09-2013, 03:57 PM   #167
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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With a better cowl that doesn't suffocate the actor, this won't even happen.
Truth. I never understood why they didn't add a nose opening to the cowl. Were they afraid of Bat-boogers?

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Old 03-09-2013, 04:53 PM   #168
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Wait...there's no nose opening? Why?

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Old 03-09-2013, 04:55 PM   #169
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Who knows. But you can clearly see there aren't during the shot when Joker's thug tries to get Bat's mask off and gets zapped.

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Old 03-09-2013, 05:55 PM   #170
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

I never noticed.

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Old 03-09-2013, 06:42 PM   #171
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

I love Nolan's trilogy, and I don't think 'fix' is the right word, but maybe 'improve' because nothing in Nolan's series was downright broken.

1. Improve Fight Scenes- I think Nolan's fights got much better in TDK and TDKR(Begins had awful fight scenes), but they could still be MUCH better.

2. More Detective Skills- Nolan's films hinted at the detective skills, but never got deep enough into that aspect of the character. We need MUCH more of this.

3. Fix the suit- MoS has a pretty good suit. We could certainly get a more accurate Batman suit with similar style.

4. No Fox- I'm fine with him being in it, but he shouldn't be the tech guru. Bats should invent that stuff.

5. No love Interest- I'm fine with comic love interests, but Batman's never been too much of a romantic. He's not like Spiderman or Superman where he has that one girl he's always adored like they have MJ and Louis respectively. Rachel was forced... we don't need that.

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Old 03-09-2013, 06:54 PM   #172
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

1. closed off mouth piece with a "synthesized voice". Batman will talk normal but the mask will make him sound like Kevin Conroy.
2. The closed off mouth piece will still resemble a human mouth and chin like a batman style guy fawkas mask.. This way Wayne will be protected from any saliva samples collected by the GCPD after Wayne's failed batman voice sprayed spit all over the criminals faces.
3. We need more high tech detective aspects. Such as eye Lenses that see in the dark, infrared, telephoto zoom aspect, video recording, photo taking and connection to Batman's database (like google class)
4. robotic aspect to the suit.

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Old 03-10-2013, 06:39 PM   #173
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Definitely have to keep Fox, I love the character and to leave him out robs him dearly.

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Old 03-10-2013, 06:40 PM   #174
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

1. Fighting. If the suit is so restricting we have to see Bruce Wayne kicking ass outside of the bat suit, so be it.

2. Bruce gets out of his "comfort zone." He's comfortable either as a billionaire wastrel or the Dark Knight of Gotham. Getting him out of that because of the big mystery would really show "the real Bruce Wayne." Bruce has a certain awareness of how screwed up he is (), and he doesn't want others to be like him. But it is hard for him to relate to those others, whether as Bruce or Batman. A line from the BBC series "Inspector Lewis" is something Bruce should say to a younger character.
"Don't grow up angry, Zoe. It takes so much effort to find your place in the world when you're angry, believe me."

3. Female characters and not necessarily romantic interests for Bruce. Nolan has a bit of a female character problem (not as bad as some other directors). I'd like more female Gotham cops, female Wayne Enterprises scientists and maybe even female criminals. But how about the major female character of a Batman movie being Martha Wayne? Bruce discovers a message to him from his mother and a mystery involving one her old enemies. Martha deserves to be more than "Thomas' wife and Bruce's mother."

4. Villains without the "And then what?" problem. The Joker may not have had a plan, but he wanted Gotham to become what it is in the comics: a city controlled by garishly dressed criminals with various gimmicks. In BB and TDKR, both times the LoS wanted to destroy Gotham. And then what? How would destroying Gotham "save" the Western world?

5. Gotham City as more fantastic without being too "Joel Schumacher." And I liked Schumacher's glitzy Gotham. Gotham shouldn't be Chicago mixed with Manahattan. It should be Dick Sprang meets Frank Lloyd Wright.

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Old 03-10-2013, 07:07 PM   #175
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Whoa, dude...nice list.

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