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Old 03-05-2013, 12:48 PM   #51
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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It makes sense, when you make a story for it that works. Just like Bruce's retirement & comeback story after 8 years in TDKR worked even though it didn't make sense to people beforehand.
It didn't work. All they did was try to make dark knight returns, including dialogue ripped from the comic. The end of the dark knight was that he had to exist as batman to take the blame for all the crap dent did, and he could never stop being batman. Opening tdkr with him retired for 8 yrs didn't make sense. Then taking him out of the picture again 20 min after he comes back? Its redundant.

It was a good movie, and a fitting end to that story, but bruce is gone, even if Bale comes back, what does he come back to? A Bruce Wayne who is "dead", doesn't have his wealth or means, and barely has the strength to save a city, yes the aged weak version of batman makes so much sense to come back. (Being facetious here).

Everyone sees it as a continuation of rises. I'd rather have bale come back but it not have anything to do with tdk trilogy, or a new actor take over.

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Old 03-05-2013, 12:50 PM   #52
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

The retirement aspect worked great in TDKR. It was clearly influenced by Dark Knight Returns, even the reasons for retirement were comparable. It wasn't just to pay homage for the hell of it though- added an emotional heft to the story. Him coming back twice wasn't redundant either, that was the point. The journey of where he was when he returns the first time to where he returns at the end, what he's fighting for, etc.

The thing that's tripping me up right now is the potential of Bruce having to come out of retirement for a second time. Although this time it would hypothetically probably be more against his will, whereas in TDKR he was longing for it desperately.

The one thing about TDKR that always stood out to me is how sneaky and paranoid Bruce's actions were at the end. Even his huge move towards peace and happiness was marked with lies, meticulously laid out plans and deception. I could easily see that version of Bruce Wayne quietly searching for a way to bring down this superpowered alien that changes everything we know about the world.

Mind you- I'm not saying this would automatically make for a good movie. But storywise they're not in as much of a corner as one might think. The point of the ending was more that Bruce had get out of Gotham to escape all the pain and tragedy of his life. As long as the story wouldn't involve Bruce Wayne going back to Gotham, taking Wayne Manor back and resuming a crime-fighting career there, I would say there's room to explore more stories. If that all happened though, then I would agree that TDKR is being 100% retconned and ruined, which would shock and upset me.

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Old 03-05-2013, 12:53 PM   #53
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

Or they just reboot the character like they said they would with Nolan on board as a producer like he said he'd be. No muss, no fuss.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:05 PM   #54
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

^ Or that. Can we at least acknowledge that given the direction of Man of Steel, it makes the most sense for a rebooted Batman to be fairly grounded in reality? Man of Steel is really playing up how the world would react to him, like it's a truly unusual thing.

That would mean that if Batman exists in the same universe as Cavill's Superman, for thematic reasons it shouldn't be a Batman who has dealt with villains like Clayface, Croc, Freeze, Bane+Venom, perma-white Joker etc. otherwise wouldn't there be a disconnect there? Wouldn't that make the DCU more of an overall sci-fi universe that violates the tone of the world reacting to something extraordinary for the first time?

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:10 PM   #55
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

The retirement aspect is entirely logical once you accept that this is Bruce treads a different path to comic Batman. It makes sense for this version of Bruce. Which is why I am all the more adamant about having Bale Bats' abandon and reverse his very natural emotional progression and get back in the game. Now that would be unnatural. Bale Bats just ain't built for this. He doesn't have the brilliant analytical intellect and peak physical perfection required for this.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:14 PM   #56
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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^ Or that. Can we at least acknowledge that given the direction of Man of Steel, it makes the most sense for a rebooted Batman to be fairly grounded in reality? Man of Steel is really playing up how the world would react to him, like it's a truly unusual thing.

That would mean that if Batman exists in the same universe as Cavill's Superman, for thematic reasons it shouldn't be a Batman who has dealt with villains like Clayface, Croc, Freeze, Bane+Venom, perma-white Joker etc. otherwise wouldn't there be a disconnect there? Wouldn't that make the DCU more of an overall sci-fi universe that violates the tone of the world reacting to something extraordinary for the first time?
The rebooted Batman will be younger and might not have dealt with those villains yet.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:15 PM   #57
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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I don't either. But a World's Finest film, as is being heavily rumored right now, with just his and Goyer's Batman and Superman is a different story. That has a lot more prestige and gravitas then just making Batman another one of the gang.
That would make more sense than Justice League, but I still don't think this is happening, and I take everything LR says with a grain of salt.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:16 PM   #58
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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Or they just reboot the character like they said they would with Nolan on board as a producer like he said he'd be. No muss, no fuss.
I watched the "Epilogue" episode of JLU again last weekend, and it got me thinking that "Batman Begins" solves a lot of problems if WB is looking for a quick turnaround of their star superhero. It has the benefit of having the action take place decades after the original trilogy, meaning there would be no stepping on Nolan's toes. Old Man Wayne could be the character originally played by Bale, or perhaps the version played by Keaton in the 80's. The futuristic version of Batman has a unique rogues gallery and capabilities that would not leave him underpowered in a World's Finest or JL film. And the concept might attract directors who may be too intimidated to directly follow up Nolan's work. I'm ready for a unique take on the Caped Crusader, and the general public may be as well.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:18 PM   #59
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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The rebooted Batman will be younger and might not have dealt with those villains yet.
Okay, granted. But I also don't like the idea of a rookie Batman who encounters Superman before ever encountering a large portion of his rogues gallery.

Overall, it's just a pretty messy situation with no easy solutions IMO. So far, the Bale rumor has been the only thing to make me somewhat excited for a crossover movie. But I felt much safer knowing the TDK trilogy was in its own untouchable bubble.

A lot of mixed emotions over here.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:22 PM   #60
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

I prefer the idea of a rebooted Batman in JL. You have a new Superman....pair him up with a new Batman.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:23 PM   #61
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

ElMayimbe's response to the trade's argument. I wanted his thoughts on that..

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:27 PM   #62
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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I prefer the idea of a rebooted Batman in JL. You have a new Superman....pair him up with a new Batman.
I feel the same

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:29 PM   #63
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

I'm not going to directly comment on the scoop itself. I'm going to pretend it never happened.

So if it didn't happen and I am Warner Bros and you're getting all of this positive on buzz for MOS, the next logical step is MOS2. That is, if the film comes out and is a success. When Iron Man came out and was a hit, did they make Avengers, no. They made Iron Man 2.

My opinion is they are waiting for MOS and they will have a Justice League or Worlds Finest script ready to go and an MOS 2 script. If MOS is successful, they will go straight to a sequel asap, if not, they will team Cavill up in an ensemble piece with the new Batman, whether that be JGL or somebody else.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:31 PM   #64
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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I prefer the idea of a rebooted Batman in JL. You have a new Superman....pair him up with a new Batman.
Why even bother with rebooting Batman? Why don't we just get a more theatrical Batman from the getgo? The Hulk reboot was pointless. Accomplished absolutely nothing. Do people really need another Batman vs Joker (perma-white this time?) movie in a couple years? Or Batman vs Croc or Clayface, to demonstrate the more supernatural elements? We just dispatched a potentially great supernatural character in Ras, so that opportunity is out the door. There are not many viable storylines that would appeal to audiences in mass, producing billion dollar box office runs.

I think Justice League can just be a self contained trilogy. You just can't do it simultaneously with concurrent solo franchises that never meant to tie into anything. MoS was never meant to tie into anything.

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I'm not going to directly comment on the scoop itself. I'm going to pretend it never happened.

So if it didn't happen and I am Warner Bros and you're getting all of this positive on buzz for MOS, the next logical step is MOS2. That is, if the film comes out and is a success. When Iron Man came out and was a hit, did they make Avengers, no. They made Iron Man 2.

My opinion is they are waiting for MOS and they will have a Justice League or Worlds Finest script ready to go and an MOS 2 script. If MOS is successful, they will go straight to a sequel asap, if not, they will team Cavill up in an ensemble piece with the new Batman, whether that be JGL or somebody else.
I agree. But I think MoS 2 would be the opportunity to introduce the expanded universe, since there isn't anything obvious that appears to be setting up a JL movie with MoS. Plus it buys time to launch other characters in the DC universe. Batman reboot should not take precedent over these other solo characters if the end game is Justice League. He's just not a character that is conducive to setting up an expanded DCCU.


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Old 03-05-2013, 01:31 PM   #65
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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Okay, granted. But I also don't like the idea of a rookie Batman who encounters Superman before ever encountering a large portion of his rogues gallery.

Overall, it's just a pretty messy situation with no easy solutions IMO. So far, the Bale rumor has been the only thing to make me somewhat excited for a crossover movie. But I felt much safer knowing the TDK trilogy was in its own untouchable bubble.

A lot of mixed emotions over here.
Both he and Superman would both be rookies. It's possible that Batman will have faced criminals like Joker,Black Mask,Deadshot,Riddler, Calendar Man, Zsaz, Scarecrow,etc. Still plenty of villains to harden him.
I don't see how this is any different from Stark who was used to fighting villains more in his league before joining the Avengers. Now all types of villains and heroes will be coming in the MCU. The DCU should do the same to reach its full potential.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:32 PM   #66
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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^ Or that. Can we at least acknowledge that given the direction of Man of Steel, it makes the most sense for a rebooted Batman to be fairly grounded in reality? Man of Steel is really playing up how the world would react to him, like it's a truly unusual thing.

That would mean that if Batman exists in the same universe as Cavill's Superman, for thematic reasons it shouldn't be a Batman who has dealt with villains like Clayface, Croc, Freeze, Bane+Venom, perma-white Joker etc. otherwise wouldn't there be a disconnect there? Wouldn't that make the DCU more of an overall sci-fi universe that violates the tone of the world reacting to something extraordinary for the first time?




Yes. Good points. Solid foundations have been set with the TDK Trilogy and the upcoming MOS.

I actually wouldn't mind the recasting of Batman for Worlds Finest or a JL film ....just as long as Nolan (Syncopy) Goyer and Snyder are all till involved in the creative process of the DC Universe.

The CREATIVE talent is there and they have already set a solid formula and foundation with TDK Trilogy and from what it seems with MOS.


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Old 03-05-2013, 01:36 PM   #67
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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Why even bother with rebooting Batman?
Because the Nolan Batman/Bruce Wayne is dead/retired. Start again with new actor in Bruce Wayne/Batman role.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:38 PM   #68
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

if they do go for a new guy and rebooted batman, then just have him appear in the JL. seriously do we need another batman film with his origin story why not just start the film with him as batman

that or just adapt the bruce timm cartoon replacing the white Martians with darksied

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:40 PM   #69
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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Why even bother with rebooting Batman? Why don't we just get a more theatrical Batman from the getgo? The Hulk reboot was pointless. Accomplished absolutely nothing. Do people really need another Batman vs Joker (perma-white) movie in a couple years? Or Batman vs Croc or Clayface, to demonstrate the more supernatural elements? We just dispatched a potentially great supernatural character in Ras, so that opportunity is out the door. There are not many viable storylines that would appeal to audiences in mass, producing billion dollar box office runs.

I think Justice League can just be a self contained trilogy. You just can't do it simultaneously with concurrent solo franchises that never meant to tie into anything. MoS was never meant to tie into anything.
This is another reason why i think using Bale for Justice League/Worlds Finest is the smarter idea. And fans will be able to buy into Batman and Supermans relationship more because they've known Batman for 3 movies and relate to him already. And they'll relate to this version of Superman and his origin.

There are different interpretations to be done for Batman. We haven't seen the animated series or arkham series come to life...and that's a very specific story for a film (Arkham Asylum)...as the centerpiece of that story has Bats locked inside a massive building with many rogues at once. And we have Batman Beyond, which will only be greenlighted YEARS if not decades from now. These are Batman interpretations that could interest many fans and general moviegoers because they are different. But the standard Batman vs Joker movie again & again, or another crime-detective story pitted against some other villain, is just not interesting. I don't think the vast majority of movie-goers will care anymore either.

If a non fanboy hears that the villain to a new rebooted batman movie is some unheard-of monster, they just wont care.

Justice League should be 1 or 2 films and a shared universe that includes Bale's Batman because you don't have to make any more Bat solo ventures for a long time. Man Of Steel can have its sequel (we dont know if a 3rd will ever be made). And Green Lantern can exist exclusively to the JL movies so the audience doesnt have to sit through another load of crap. It saves WB from risking their money on him too. Flash and WW can either be exclusive as well or they each get a one-off solo film and that's that. Depending on how they are recieved in the team-up.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:41 PM   #70
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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Both he and Superman would both be rookies. It's possible that Batman will have faced criminals like Joker,Black Mask,Deadshot,Riddler, Calendar Man, Zsaz, Scarecrow,etc. Still plenty of villains to harden him.
But I don't want him to have experienced all those as backstory. I would want to see that happen!

Sure, you could set the rebooted Batman film prior to the JL/World's Finest continuity, but again it's all just more confusing and convoluted stuff.

Compare that to Marvel's always forward moving universe (barring Captain America, which was decidedly a period piece) and it's just not as appealing or exciting.

All I'm saying is WB has a mess on their hands and right now the solution offered by El Mayimbe (even if it's TOTALLY bogus) is the first thing I've heard that actually makes sense as a way to clean everything up.

I feel either do it right, or don't do it at all. I'd be more than happy to just have MOS sequels with no crossover whatsoever. But if it must happen, why not have it be with THE 21st century Batman?

Would it be a contrivance?
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But the very IDEA of Superman and Batman being in the same world is a contrivance in the first place, based on the fact that they both originate from the same publishing company. Batman was originally meant to be its own thing that contrasts with Superman. It's the idea of putting two things together that don't quite belong that makes it such a tempting proposition in the first place.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:43 PM   #71
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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Because the Nolan Batman/Bruce Wayne is dead/retired. Start again with new actor in Bruce Wayne/Batman role.
I am talking about a Batman geared for the Justice League. Do audiences need an introduction as they did with Thor and Captain America? Or do they need another Incredible Hulk? It's irrelevant because we know the story of Batman. You don't need a 2:30 hour Batman reboot explaining why this is a new Batman not connected to the Nolanverse but the DCCU instead.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:47 PM   #72
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

I'm happy with either a rebooted Batman or if Bale comes back, whatever will be will be. I just don't want JGL Batman in JL. I want a Bruce Wayne Batman.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:52 PM   #73
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John Blake is batman! The comics don't matter!

Note: I don't really think this at all, I just wanted to say it first, before some crazy person does...crazier

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:53 PM   #74
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 5

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Tony Stark already addressed this, but Abrams was interested in SW but initially turned down the project because he had committed to working on Star Trek for Paramount. He ended up changing his mind only after Kathy Kennedy refused to take no for an answer and kept pursuing him as her first choice for director.

Conversely, Nolan has flat-out said several times that he has absolutely no interest in godfathering a DCCU and has no real reason to change his mind.
Somewhere on this site, there was a link to an article quoting Nolan as saying, "the atmosphere wasn't conducive over there." That was in the mist of a discussion about his thoughts with WB management and why he was not interested in JL but producing MoS. This why I said, what I said to Dark Knight in the link below.

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...&postcount=530

So yes, I can certainly see why he could very well have changed his mind. I knew then, the thought was to give Nolan control, which would make him more comfortable in formatting a direction for what WB/DC want to do. Now, its "my opinion" that Nolan primitively have a plan how to tie some things together, even if it means explaining some things and totally ignoring other things.

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Old 03-05-2013, 01:56 PM   #75
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I am talking about a Batman geared for the Justice League. Do audiences need an introduction as they did with Thor and Captain America? Or do they need another Incredible Hulk? It's irrelevant because we know the story of Batman. You don't need a 2:30 hour Batman reboot explaining why this is a new Batman not connected to the Nolanverse but the DCCU instead.
You don't need to retell his origin. He can just be batman and the movie can go from there. Gritty realism with comic book elements, but that can also be said of the nolanverse.

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