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Old 01-10-2014, 04:00 PM   #701
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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A storyteller that does not consider the audience, that does not make themselves relevant, they fail, both critically and commercially. Just depicting a story is never the goal, if it was, Marvel Studios would just sell comics at the movie theatres.
Absolutely not.

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This no reason thing is grossly incorrect. There are myriad reasons, as simple as "I like different colors" to as complex as we can get higher quality women/minority actors cheaper. It's very myopic to demand that no one have any other motivation than political correctness in being inclusive.

Also, I've yet to see how being inclusive has harmed a story or character. It has turned oft overlooked characters into household names though. So it may be a largely good thing. "It shouldn't matter" and "It does matter" are not mutually exclusive statements, not by a long shot.
Again, as a society, we'll never get passed anything if people keep making race and color so important when it shouldn't be. Again, shouldn't we be color blind and not care about race? By shoving it in, it does the exact opposite.

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Old 01-10-2014, 04:18 PM   #702
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That's where we're differing in opinions though. What you see as "shoving it in" others see as "being inclusive". That's the crux of the conflict.

What we're saying is that Marvel and other studios need to create stories that allow inclusivity of other races, gender representations, etc. Though I do think you mean well, by being "colorblind" and saying we shouldn't care about color, I think that creates fewer opportunities for multiracial actors and actresses and women in big franchises like these, and let's face it, trans and noncisgendered individuals, to be represented in media.

If we say we don't care about what color a character is or what gender a character is, that kind of thinking almost leads to no improvement in the field at all.

We should care. And we should find ways in the stories we tell to be more inclusive.

Part of the problem that Marvel does face with their adaptations is many of their notable female characters (and women of color) are with Fox. What I wouldn't give to see a MCU version of Storm or Psylocke!

But, with the existing females that Marvel Studios have access to, ones like Captain Marvel, The Wasp, Valkyrie, Enchantress, Jessica Drew, Jessica Jones, Jennifer Walters, Kate Bishop, Bobbi Morse, etc. what they should do is either explore ways to make them main characters in their own rights and/or broaden their casting pool like they did with Heimdall and Gamora and Drax and create more opportunities for diversity. Add characters in like Monica Rambeau or Miss America Chavez or Dani Moonstar. Reboot Elecktra. Add in LGBT visibility as well, with characters from the Young Avengers, or hell…. give us Lady Loki or make him bi. Marvel's doing a fairly good job catching up with the times, which I do think will open up more chances for representation in the movies.

It feels like a glacial pace, though. Especially now when we have Catching Fire finally at number one this year for the box office. The longer Marvel and WB waits for an opportunity to do a female-led CBM, the more they look like dinosaurs a little bit.

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Old 01-10-2014, 05:21 PM   #703
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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What we're saying is that Marvel and other studios need to create stories that allow inclusivity of other races, gender representations, etc. Though I do think you mean well, by being "colorblind" and saying we shouldn't care about color, I think that creates fewer opportunities for multiracial actors and actresses and women in big franchises like these, and let's face it, trans and noncisgendered individuals, to be represented in media.
Well, no, they [Marvel] do not need to do anything, and it doesn't creat fewer oppurtunities at all. And why do we have to differientate who we are by racial and sexual means in the media? Isn't that doing exactly the opposite of what "inclusion" is suppose to be? That's why you keep seeing me say term "inclusion" is actually bogus because the exact opposite happens.

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If we say we don't care about what color a character is or what gender a character is, that kind of thinking almost leads to no improvement in the field at all.
I see Martin Luther King doing an epic face palm... what did he say about this? ... That we should be colorblind by now.... that's they only way to have true inclusion.

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But, with the existing females that Marvel Studios have access to, ones like Captain Marvel, The Wasp, Valkyrie, Enchantress, Jessica Drew, Jessica Jones, Jennifer Walters, Kate Bishop, Bobbi Morse, etc. what they should do is either explore ways to make them main characters in their own rights and/or broaden their casting pool like they did with Heimdall and Gamora and Drax and create more opportunities for diversity. Add characters in like Monica Rambeau or Miss America Chavez or Dani Moonstar. Reboot Elecktra. Add in LGBT visibility as well, with characters from the Young Avengers, or hell…. give us Lady Loki or make him bi. Marvel's doing a fairly good job catching up with the times, which I do think will open up more chances for representation in the movies.
Or... they can write their stories to focus on the continuation of the Universe and their plan.... a good story, regardless of race or sex... not one forced because some people want to be PC police...

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It feels like a glacial pace, though. Especially now when we have Catching Fire finally at number one this year for the box office. The longer Marvel and WB waits for an opportunity to do a female-led CBM, the more they look like dinosaurs a little bit.
Again, you just refuse to acknowledge any other reason other than they must hate women and minorities... make zero sense. (that what you mean when you say they'll look like dinosaurs)

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Old 01-10-2014, 06:18 PM   #704
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Well, no, they [Marvel] do not need to do anything, and it doesn't creat fewer oppurtunities at all. And why do we have to differientate who we are by racial and sexual means in the media? Isn't that doing exactly the opposite of what "inclusion" is suppose to be? That's why you keep seeing me say term "inclusion" is actually bogus because the exact opposite happens.



I see Martin Luther King doing an epic face palm... what did he say about this? ... That we should be colorblind by now.... that's they only way to have true inclusion.



Or... they can write their stories to focus on the continuation of the Universe and their plan.... a good story, regardless of race or sex... not one forced because some people want to be PC police...



Again, you just refuse to acknowledge any other reason other than they must hate women and minorities... make zero sense. (that what you mean when you say they'll look like dinosaurs)
No, I said they'd look like dinosaurs, or old-fashioned, not that they hate women or minorities. I already said that I really love what MCU's done with the female characters. I'll also add that Marvel's been pretty good with racially diversifying their lineup as well, from Don Cheadle to Bautista and Hounsou. But they really need to do even more. What I meant by "look like dinosaurs" is that, when you look at the successes of female-led blockbusters this year and the fact that Catching Fire did even better than Iron Man 3 at the box office in 2013. Marvel Studios and Feige need to step up their game in regards to showcasing their superpowered women onscreen in more than (admittedly) major supporting roles.

Again, I do think you're misunderstanding my personal wants for racial/gender/sexual identity inclusion in media. I want more exposure for characters, more developing of stories that allow diverse characters to be showcased in these films.

Look at what Sleepy Hollow and Elementary are doing. They are featuring strong Asian and black women and men as the focal point for the shows, in genres that are heavily white/male-centric (sci-fi and detective/Sherlock Holmes). Now, I don't really watch Elementary, but I do plan on catching up with it very soon, but Sleepy Hollow is one of my favorite shows, and the plots that focus on Abbie and her sister Jenny are both focused on racial dynamics (Abbie and her connections to Ichabod) and non-racial dynamics (Abbie and Jenny's complicated histories as siblings). The creators of the show saw a chance to craft a story around race, gender and common tropes within the sci-fi genre and buddy cop genre and got themselves a hit. It's a modernization of the Ichabod Crane story, and it absolutely works like a charm!

I'm not even saying that Marvel has to tell an allegory about civil rights or racial discrimination or gender discrimination in their movies, but they do need to figure out ways to tweak the established formulas of their superhero movies to appeal to an even broader swath of the general audience. It's not about being PC; I don't even look at it like that. It's about, like I've said before, representation.

As for the "colorblind" argument, I definitely don't want to start anything or make assumptions about why one uses the term. But I do think it's applied to justify continued exclusion of marginalized groups from mainstream media. It's like different connotations of the same word - MLK Jr.'s definition of "colorblindness" isn't the same thing as a movie studio's definition of "color-blindedness".

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Old 01-10-2014, 07:16 PM   #705
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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Absolutely not.
That would transmit the story, if that's all they care about. So obviously, that's not the only goal.

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Again, as a society, we'll never get passed anything if people keep making race and color so important when it shouldn't be. Again, shouldn't we be color blind and not care about race? By shoving it in, it does the exact opposite.
Hmmm... I think you have it backwards. Pretending there's no separation only makes it impossible to destroy the separation, because you remove the target. If everyone were all of a sudden "colorblind," wealth and education and superhero roles would not suddenly change hands. History would still make race important. Eventually people would again figure out 'oh, women work these jobs' and 'oh, superheroes are the people with European ancestry' because not seeing it doesn't make it not true. Put another way, if there's a wall between us, me ignoring it does not unite us, only aggressively breaking the wall unites us.

If you are colorblind, you can't see breaking that wall as shoving or forced, because you don't believe in the wall in the first place. How can you have a problem with PCism if you think they're just moving around things that are all the same?

We shouldn't care about race, I agree, but the only way to address that is by facing the fact that we really really do, and to aggressively break down anything that separates us. Only when race is actually irrelevant, when it is no indicator of superheroness, or income, or education, or anything... only when it's actually irrelevant will people start treating it like it is.

After all, how can I be color blind if color determines if I can play my favorite superhero? How can I be gender neutral if gender determines if my favorite superhero can have a solo film?

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Old 01-10-2014, 08:35 PM   #706
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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That would transmit the story, if that's all they care about. So obviously, that's not the only goal.



Hmmm... I think you have it backwards. Pretending there's no separation only makes it impossible to destroy the separation, because you remove the target. If everyone were all of a sudden "colorblind," wealth and education and superhero roles would not suddenly change hands. History would still make race important. Eventually people would again figure out 'oh, women work these jobs' and 'oh, superheroes are the people with European ancestry' because not seeing it doesn't make it not true. Put another way, if there's a wall between us, me ignoring it does not unite us, only aggressively breaking the wall unites us.

If you are colorblind, you can't see breaking that wall as shoving or forced, because you don't believe in the wall in the first place. How can you have a problem with PCism if you think they're just moving around things that are all the same?

We shouldn't care about race, I agree, but the only way to address that is by facing the fact that we really really do, and to aggressively break down anything that separates us. Only when race is actually irrelevant, when it is no indicator of superheroness, or income, or education, or anything... only when it's actually irrelevant will people start treating it like it is.

After all, how can I be color blind if color determines if I can play my favorite superhero? How can I be gender neutral if gender determines if my favorite superhero can have a solo film?
Brilliant post. Well-spoken analogy there.

To put it in comic-book terms, for those who don't understand why the movies try so hard to race-switch or gender-switch "historically" white characters: the vast majority of these stories were written in the 1960s, and were aimed at a predominantly young white male American audience. That was still the norm back then; but America has long since moved on from the white male majority.

The socio-political landscape of the Silver Age comic-book universe makes no sense to 21st century Americans, with its lack of blacks, latinos and Asians, and without many strong female characters to represent modern women.

Movie studios, including Marvel Studios, need to appeal to a MUCH broader cross-section of society than the young white geeks who still dominate the comic-book fanbase. So they look at the comic-book characters with lasting appeal, and ask *why* they have this lasting appeal, and they ask if there's anything there that absolutely *requires* those characters to be strictly white males of European descent (which is the case for the vast majority of them). When they find that the answer is "no," then it's time to ask if a broader audience can be reached by modernizing that character to reflect the ethnic and social realities of 2014 instead of 1962.

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Old 01-11-2014, 04:47 AM   #707
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

"Society should be colorblind" is an argument that is used to perpetuate the status quo. So you want change from centuries of discrimination and erasure of racial and sexual minorities and women in popular culture? Why, then, let's just ignore all of those ridiculous categories altogether! Then we can keep on doing what we've been doing, but claim that we're being "colorblind" and ignoring sexuality and gender while still focusing on characters who are primarily white, predominantly male and almost always straight. The studios just want to tell the best stories, after all. If the best stories just happen to be the ones that star straight white males that's nobody's fault.

Right?

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Old 01-11-2014, 09:27 AM   #708
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

Basically, xeno000, cherokeesam, and DrCosmic articulated the very problematic issue with "colorblindedness" and media representation. It does perpetuate the status quo and allows studios to continue ignoring (sometimes whitewashing altogether-see Cloud Atlas, WB trying to get a version of AKIRA off the ground with LEO DIFREAKINGCAPRIO! Not to mention The Last Airbender… 47 Ronin too was pretty problematic as well.) marginalized groups from productions. I feel heartened that there's more recognition for producers of color who are creating representations and spaces for actors and actresses of color, and for female creators who are trying to fill in the gaps of representation onscreen.

So colorblindness is actually a very bad thing. You cannot ignore race and ethnicity. You shouldn't ignore it. Be aware and be open to learning about others and their life and struggles. "Colorblindness" defaults everything to white and perpetuates further exclusion.

Yet, it's still a very, very long way away from equality. And as much as I love Marvel Studios and what they have done diversity-wise, they're still a long ways off.

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Old 01-11-2014, 10:10 AM   #709
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Old 01-11-2014, 11:29 AM   #710
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I hope this means we get to see the Widow snipe and not just a random toy idea.

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Old 01-11-2014, 12:17 PM   #711
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They show her with a sniper rifle in multiple toys/images, so I'm going to guess that she gets to use one at some point.

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Old 01-11-2014, 02:34 PM   #712
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

Ooh yessssss…. give me Sniper Widow. I'm all for that.

Taking another opportunity to say her costume is boss.

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Old 01-11-2014, 06:54 PM   #713
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

ScarJo on the Widow's supporting nature in the MCU so far.

“My first Marvel film was Iron Man 2 and then we did The Avengers and then Chris Evans and I did Cap 2, but I think that film, there's a couple of new characters,”

“The Falcon is a new character in that, and of course Sebastian Stan is kind of continuing his character, obviously he's playing the Winter Soldier. But these characters really kind of take on something bigger than they've ever seen, so I think it's something that they can't do without each other. In that sense, we were in it, kind of neck-and-neck, and it's a bigger responsibility. But then again, even in "Avengers 2," we all play in it, it's not like, "Great, I'll be booking, like, two days a week and then be eating sandwiches the rest of the week." No, it's on. We all are fighting in it together, we're all fighting our own battles and our own demons and it's a lot of dramatic work, and the physical part of it, so the films all have their own challenges, but it's fun.”


I like how much faith she has in the fact that BW is being respected and not just given a strictly supporting role. Still holding out for a solo though!

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Old 01-11-2014, 10:11 PM   #714
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Me to. Come on Marvel, you keep saying that you want to do a female-led movie, but you never actually DO ANYTHING about it. Put your money where your mouth is.

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Old 01-11-2014, 10:31 PM   #715
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Me to. Come on Marvel, you keep saying that you want to do a female-led movie, but you never actually DO ANYTHING about it. Put your money where your mouth is.
I feel heartened that there are at least strong rumors about Cap/Ms. Marvel.

That being said, I will feel a lot better once announcements for Phase 3 films are made and if either Black Panther or CM show up. Or if they cast a non-white actor for Strange....

If still no BP or Captain Marvel, my side-eye can grow fierce!

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Old 01-12-2014, 01:15 AM   #716
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

If anything, I think what really prohibits Marvel Studios from tackling on a Solo Black Widow film are primarily two things:

Them being nervous/unsure on how a comic book film would do with the titular character being a woman.....AND.... the gritty and dark aspects that comes with Black Widow's past (which is what I'm sure they'll want to tackle majorly in the film).

Ever since Iron Man 2, I feel like Marvel has been almost afraid to do "mature themes" to its fullest and have done their best in trying to present a "family atmosphere" to their films. Black Widow's past is anything but family friendly.

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Old 01-12-2014, 04:28 AM   #717
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

Black Widow works best with the others. A solo film just wouldn't sell all that well and it would take away from another potential film. If you are asking me if I have to choose between a solo Widow film or a Cap, Thor, Ant-Man, or Strange film, my choice is clear.

It is the same with Hawkeye. And while a Loki film could work and be somewhat popular, it would have to be more well written then anything they have produced so far to work.

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Old 01-12-2014, 05:21 AM   #718
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And while a Loki film could work and be somewhat popular, it would have to be more well written then anything they have produced so far to work.
Heck Thor: TDW felt like it was partially made as a service to Loki's fans especially so I don't see the need of why they would have to make an actual solo film for the character..

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Old 01-12-2014, 11:01 AM   #719
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Black Widow works best with the others. A solo film just wouldn't sell all that well and it would take away from another potential film. If you are asking me if I have to choose between a solo Widow film or a Cap, Thor, Ant-Man, or Strange film, my choice is clear.

It is the same with Hawkeye. And while a Loki film could work and be somewhat popular, it would have to be more well written then anything they have produced so far to work.
Again, you keep saying that a BW solo film can't work, but you have yet to proved any explanation as to WHY? It's not like spy movies have been really successful in the past, oh wait they have.

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Old 01-12-2014, 03:00 PM   #720
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Again, you keep saying that a BW solo film can't work, but you have yet to proved any explanation as to WHY? It's not like spy movies have been really successful in the past, oh wait they have.
I am sorry, I didn't know I had to prove anything...

Anyways, my point was that the character and content would be underwhelming in a situation where you could have other superhero films. And I feel like that is very true. Black Widow film or GotG? This isn't a comic book, where you can do cheap one offs because you are producing 50+ comics a month. This would be one of 4-5 films between the Avengers. The real estate is limited.

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Old 01-12-2014, 03:54 PM   #721
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

The character would be underwhelming? Not so sure about that part, Widow is definitely compelling in her own right. I do see the issue about the content, and even though there's plenty of Russian Cold War super soldier issues to deal with, the fact is that it'd be a lot like a Captain America movie, hence super soldier issues. So, I don't think the intensity is so much an issue, but rather uniqueness. That's the problem with Marvel's solo females, they seem to consistently do the same exact stuff as the solo males, who already have films.

I do think that in Widow's case they should seriously consider a lower budget spy thriller for her, to the tune of $75M at some point, making a sort of two-and-a-half movies a year deal. Just because she's kinda awesome as a character, and a female solo flick needs to happen, and while it may take some finagling to make her unique from Cap, Widow is one who could actually support a character arc of such quality, and she's one who can be done on a $75M budget...

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Old 01-12-2014, 10:57 PM   #722
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

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Ooh yessssss…. give me Sniper Widow. I'm all for that.

Taking another opportunity to say her costume is boss.
I'd love a scene where Steve has to make his way through a heavily guarded area and Widow picks off threats from above with her sniper rifle to clear a path.

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Old 01-13-2014, 02:12 AM   #723
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

Marvel might as well make a SHIELD movie with BW and Hawkeye as the stars/focuses. Those two (especially BW) deserve at least one movie that focuses on them instead of having them constantly as supporting characters. Or atleast give us a mini film or something.

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Old 01-13-2014, 02:41 AM   #724
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Default Re: "Yeah, it's going to be fun"- The Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson Thread

I wonder if they could get Scarlett Johansson to put in an appearance in the Daredevil show.

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Old 01-13-2014, 07:26 AM   #725
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Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
Marvel might as well make a SHIELD movie with BW and Hawkeye as the stars/focuses. Those two (especially BW) deserve at least one movie that focuses on them instead of having them constantly as supporting characters. Or atleast give us a mini film or something.
Kevin Feige did say we MIGHT see a BW film in the future, but he did say back in Phase 1 that they are combining the Cap and SHIELD franchises together in this film.

I remember back in Phase 1 that they where thinking of doing a big SHIELD film before Avengers came out, but Kevin said that that we are combining the franchises together because Cap works for SHIELD in the modern day, so it is sort of 50/50 a SHIELD movie anyway rather than doing a Cap movie and THEN a separate SHIELD movie. That's why their doing TV shows and Marvel One-Shots instead that feature SHIELD.

I think that is the best way to do it because you have separate Iron Man, Thor franchises etc, but SHIELD is a BIG presence in the Cap comics in the modern day, so it makes sense to combine them.


Last edited by speno94; 01-13-2014 at 07:30 AM.
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