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Old 05-05-2013, 10:30 AM   #151
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
You can refuse to acknowledge it, but he was.
No he wasn't! There WAS no Mandarin. Since he's responsible for him, created him and did the actual terror in his name, he is metaphorically the Mandarin. That's what he was saying

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Old 05-05-2013, 10:49 AM   #152
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

I'll leave my thoughts on the Mandarin here.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
For Iron Man fans that have been waiting for years to see the Mandarin, I can definitely understand why they would be upset and disappointed with this movie.

Personally though, I actually love what they did, or tried to do depending on your opinion on the execution.

The past few weeks in class I've been studying post-modernism and the theories of Jean Baudrillard pertaining to simulation, so for me personally, this movie came out at just the right time.

Baudrillard described how increasingly in current society, our understandings and meanings of things are based on representations of things rather than the things themselves. Our symbols indicate only other symbols and associations rather than representing anything real. Increasingly, the use and appropriations of these symbols is how we define our selves within society rather than any kind of fixed identity. We wear certain clothes and consume certain products for the associations that they bring us. It is about presentation. In dealing with other people, it doesn't so much matter if you actually have wealth if you can properly make use of the symbols of wealth in your clothes, in your speech and in your attitude.

In that context
Our media has presented us with ideas of what the bad guys look like, often reducing current enemies to cartoons. Once we were fed an assembly line of Communists, Russians mostly. Today, rooted in current conflicts we are often presented with vaguely Islamic, non-white, nebulous terrorists. And not just in movies but on the news too. It is almost always the initial assumption a lot of news outlets go with that attacks fit that standard description when bombings and the like take place (even in the attacks in Norway when the attacker turned out to be a pearly-White, nationalistic Christian).

When I first heard about Kingsley's casting and first saw photos, I must say I was not a fan, mostly because it just fed right in to what I have described above. They had taken what many consider the racial caricature of another era and update him merely by incorporating the stereotypes of our time making him a weirdly pan-Asian, America-hating terrorist with robes and Bin Laden beard. It just seemed like an overly desperate attempt to make him menacing by incorporating every possible contemporary trope and symbol of villainy into one character.

And then they lampshaded it.

They could have just went with the caricature they had created, played it straight and had a standard comic film villain. Instead they made the fact the character they created is actually a hollow play upon stereotypes part of the plot. You have a company creating a villain by purposefully playing upon the pop-culture's current standard bogeyman, playing upon the way such people are portrayed on the news everyday (the beard, the grainy footage of weapons training, etc.)

Meanwhile the government is trying to "rebrand" War Machine from a black and silver tool of military aggression to a red white and blue symbol for America, The Iron Patriot (it tested with the focus groups).

Both Aim and the U.S. government are actively playing upon symbols to create their intended presentation.

"The Mandarin" as a recognized figurehead and as a leader is a complete fabrication intended to stir up fears and draw fire away from the real perpetrators.

The paint job and a name change do nothing to change War Machine's role as a powerful military weapon.

It is an interesting comment on our society and also possibly an admission on the writers part on the process of creating characters.


All of this of course is just my interpretation. I fully understand and agree with the criticisms of people who are disappointed.

Personally though, I thought it was genius. It was a risky and bold move on the part of the filmmakers and Marvel.

To paraphrase another of the films that he is written, Shane Black's got nards!

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Old 05-05-2013, 11:04 AM   #153
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

For those saying the character is too difficult to translate or be done, just watch The Shadow. You'll get a better Mandarin in that movie than this one, that's for sure...even w/o the rings.

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Old 05-05-2013, 11:22 AM   #154
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

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just a thought..........

If Kingsley's "Trevor" is an actor, who's to say that his foolish, drunken behavior was..........just an act?

iow........what if "Trevor" really is the Mandarin? What if Killian's declaration that he was the Mandarin merely part of the plan of misdirection?

it isn't out of the realm of possibility............
I would be impressed if Marvel Studios did that.

One thing I noticed that wasn't in the film was the shot of 'The Mandarin' removing his hood, with the Cap America shield tattoo on his neck. I wonder if there was any relevance/story behind that...


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Old 05-05-2013, 11:24 AM   #155
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

Loved Ben Kingsley in this movie. I would have preferred a more true comic adaption of the Mandarin but I thought what they did was unique and worked for this movie.

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Old 05-05-2013, 11:32 AM   #156
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

I thought Ben was awesome in his role. Just didn't really enjoy where they took it....Ben, acting as the villain, was more a more threatening figure than the actual villain. That's the part that pissed me off.

They essentially traded roles, and the real villain motivations just didn't measure up to the "made up" motivations of the first villain.

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Old 05-05-2013, 01:03 PM   #157
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

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For those saying the character is too difficult to translate or be done, just watch The Shadow. You'll get a better Mandarin in that movie than this one, that's for sure...even w/o the rings.
Agreed about The Shadow.

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Old 05-05-2013, 01:44 PM   #158
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Great Mind(s) View Post
No he wasn't! There WAS no Mandarin. Since he's responsible for him, created him and did the actual terror in his name, he is metaphorically the Mandarin. That's what he was saying
Denying it doesn't change that he was. His actions were perfectly in line with his character in the comics, especially the modern interpretations of Mandarin.

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Old 05-05-2013, 01:46 PM   #159
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

Once the spoiler ban is lifted this thread title ought to be changed to [/BLACKOUT]Ben Kingsley is NOT the Mandarin! [/BLACKOUT] Sorry if I'm the millionth person to make that joke.

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Old 05-05-2013, 01:47 PM   #160
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by kedrell View Post
For those saying the character is too difficult to translate or be done, just watch The Shadow. You'll get a better Mandarin in that movie than this one, that's for sure...even w/o the rings.
No one is saying that.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
They took two interpretations of the Mandarin, a modern one and the classic one. The modern Mandarin used the classic interpretation to hide his actions and who he was.

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Old 05-05-2013, 01:48 PM   #161
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

I still think Kingsley deserves credit for giving us a great TWO performances in radically different styles.

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Old 05-05-2013, 01:51 PM   #162
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

There is no mandarin in this movie
Mandarin is an idea created by Killian to hide his crimes

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Old 05-05-2013, 04:12 PM   #163
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Great Mind(s) View Post
No he wasn't! There WAS no Mandarin. Since he's responsible for him, created him and did the actual terror in his name, he is metaphorically the Mandarin. That's what he was saying
Must have missed that part. Was it before or after he went shirtless and showed off his dragon tattoos and proclaimed "I am the Mandarin"?

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Old 05-05-2013, 04:34 PM   #164
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

I just caught that there were two threads, this probably belongs in this Mandarin thread than the others.


For as great as Ben Kingsley was as the first half of the character. For as cool as it would have been to see that follow through throughout the film as simply the Mandarin, I've got to say, I wouldn't want to see them go that route. If they had, we wouldn't have had or seen good ole Trevor. "It's complicated, it's COMPlicated". We wouldn't have gotten to see those scenes, Tony's reaction, Rhodey's reaction, or Kingsley's turn.

His performance as both characters was just fantastic. Intimidating during the broadcasts, down right pathetic as a thespian "acTOR". To play that sort of range, from grim, ultra serious to shocking and humorouswas fascinating to me. I've never seen something like this before and it took balls to go that route (Shane Black even said he knew what he was doing and knew the repercussions from fans when they added that). Would it have been better if they played it straight without the twist? Maybe, possibly, we'll never know that wasn't available to us. If that happened though, I wouldn't have gotten the reaction that I got on Friday, nor would other folks that enjoyed it. It was hysterical.

On a purely cinematic experience, comics or other Mandarin interpretations aside, it worked for me. It's humorous, I enjoyed the symbolism of it, etc. etc. I really wouldn't have it any other way. Pearce impressed me too. I wasn't expecting much from that character, I didn't even think he'd play a major part, but his involvement was good.






Did anyone else like when he was breaking character and then offered Tony a beer?


Last edited by milost; 05-05-2013 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:14 PM   #165
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

Ben Kingsley managed to make RDJ the second funniest character in an iron man movie. He was just awesome. He really is a skilled actor. When he went "ole ole" at the soccer game, i just lost it.

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Old 05-05-2013, 05:54 PM   #166
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

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Ben Kingsley managed to make RDJ the second funniest character in an iron man movie. He was just awesome. He really is a skilled actor. When he went "ole ole" at the soccer game, i just lost it.

Same. Bloody brilliant!

I also loved the line: "You can take the guns, they're all fake 'cus the bloody wankers don't trust with the real ones."

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Old 05-05-2013, 07:10 PM   #167
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

Did he ever say, "Today is the first day of what's left of your life." in the film?

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Old 05-06-2013, 12:10 AM   #168
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

Nope. Nor did he say 90% of the stuff that he said in the trailers.

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Old 05-06-2013, 01:03 AM   #169
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

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There is no mandarin in this movie
Mandarin is an idea created by Killian to hide his crimes

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Old 05-06-2013, 01:18 AM   #170
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

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Hee! Perfect.

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Old 05-06-2013, 01:27 AM   #171
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

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oh man, Killian pulled the best Andy Dufresne since Andy Dufresne! props! I bet they didn't look at his shoes either

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Old 05-06-2013, 04:15 AM   #172
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

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Originally Posted by redhawk23 View Post
I'll leave my thoughts on the Mandarin here.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
For Iron Man fans that have been waiting for years to see the Mandarin, I can definitely understand why they would be upset and disappointed with this movie.

Personally though, I actually love what they did, or tried to do depending on your opinion on the execution.

The past few weeks in class I've been studying post-modernism and the theories of Jean Baudrillard pertaining to simulation, so for me personally, this movie came out at just the right time.

Baudrillard described how increasingly in current society, our understandings and meanings of things are based on representations of things rather than the things themselves. Our symbols indicate only other symbols and associations rather than representing anything real. Increasingly, the use and appropriations of these symbols is how we define our selves within society rather than any kind of fixed identity. We wear certain clothes and consume certain products for the associations that they bring us. It is about presentation. In dealing with other people, it doesn't so much matter if you actually have wealth if you can properly make use of the symbols of wealth in your clothes, in your speech and in your attitude.

In that context
Our media has presented us with ideas of what the bad guys look like, often reducing current enemies to cartoons. Once we were fed an assembly line of Communists, Russians mostly. Today, rooted in current conflicts we are often presented with vaguely Islamic, non-white, nebulous terrorists. And not just in movies but on the news too. It is almost always the initial assumption a lot of news outlets go with that attacks fit that standard description when bombings and the like take place (even in the attacks in Norway when the attacker turned out to be a pearly-White, nationalistic Christian).

When I first heard about Kingsley's casting and first saw photos, I must say I was not a fan, mostly because it just fed right in to what I have described above. They had taken what many consider the racial caricature of another era and update him merely by incorporating the stereotypes of our time making him a weirdly pan-Asian, America-hating terrorist with robes and Bin Laden beard. It just seemed like an overly desperate attempt to make him menacing by incorporating every possible contemporary trope and symbol of villainy into one character.

And then they lampshaded it.

They could have just went with the caricature they had created, played it straight and had a standard comic film villain. Instead they made the fact the character they created is actually a hollow play upon stereotypes part of the plot. You have a company creating a villain by purposefully playing upon the pop-culture's current standard bogeyman, playing upon the way such people are portrayed on the news everyday (the beard, the grainy footage of weapons training, etc.)

Meanwhile the government is trying to "rebrand" War Machine from a black and silver tool of military aggression to a red white and blue symbol for America, The Iron Patriot (it tested with the focus groups).

Both Aim and the U.S. government are actively playing upon symbols to create their intended presentation.

"The Mandarin" as a recognized figurehead and as a leader is a complete fabrication intended to stir up fears and draw fire away from the real perpetrators.

The paint job and a name change do nothing to change War Machine's role as a powerful military weapon.

It is an interesting comment on our society and also possibly an admission on the writers part on the process of creating characters.


All of this of course is just my interpretation. I fully understand and agree with the criticisms of people who are disappointed.

Personally though, I thought it was genius. It was a risky and bold move on the part of the filmmakers and Marvel.

To paraphrase another of the films that he is written, Shane Black's got nards!
I agree 100%. Those mirror my thoughts on IM3's Mandarin's portrayal almost exactly. An excellent post... bravo!

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Old 05-06-2013, 10:29 AM   #173
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

Whether you loved or hated the direction the character took, I think we can all agree that Kingsley did a fantastic job.

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Old 05-06-2013, 10:44 AM   #174
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

I liked the twist purely for the fact that Ben was amazing in the role. I think that he not only got the joke, but enjoyed it, is why he did so well in it. As others have been saying, love the twist or hate it, there's no tearing down Ben's performance. I attribute the twist working because of his performance.

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Old 05-06-2013, 10:46 AM   #175
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Default Re: Ben Kingsley is The Mandarin! - Part 1

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Whether you loved or hated the direction the character took, I think we can all agree that Kingsley did a fantastic job.
Well, that was expected. He's Ben ****ing Kingsley.

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