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View Poll Results: Which villain do you prefer, which one is better?
The Joker 74 78.72%
Bane 20 21.28%
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:45 PM   #301
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

Did the film say for sure that Talia was the one in charge? I know she told Bane to keep him alive, but that could be more like a loved daughter asking her father figure for a favour. After all he was the adult in their beginning relationship so it seems more likely he would have the influence over her.

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:02 PM   #302
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Sure, when she was not there.
I'll ask you the question that I've asked others who can't seem to answer...when would have been the best time for Bane to kill Batman then? While Talia was saying goodbye to him? Should he have interrupted her and say "I'm going to kill him now."

Because while Talia gave Bane an order, he never truly agreed to it nor did he say yes. At least when Bane gave an order in the beginning of TDKR, the mercenary agreed to stay behind.

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Thanks to the frame-by-frame button, I could too. But the problem was so evident, Nolan visibly changed his way to film action.
Although it's not a problem. The camera work had a purpose in BB.

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:36 PM   #303
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I'll ask you the question that I've asked others who can't seem to answer...when would have been the best time for Bane to kill Batman then? While Talia was saying goodbye to him? Should he have interrupted her and say "I'm going to kill him now."

Because while Talia gave Bane an order, he never truly agreed to it nor did he say yes. At least when Bane gave an order in the beginning of TDKR, the mercenary agreed to stay behind.
First you have to solve whether Bane is just Talia's puppy or not.

Talia ordered Bane not to kill Batman and Bane looked at her, weeping in love. Then she left and he became the old strong Bane who takes orders from no one.

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Although it's not a problem. The camera work had a purpose in BB.
Having a purpose doesn't mean it works. The editing had its purpose but first, it was used for scenes that didn't involve criminals under Batman's attack, and second, it made action a tiresome spectacle that didn't allow people to see Batman and to follow his actions. How can I engage in an action scene when I can't see who's punching who.

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:38 PM   #304
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Did the film say for sure that Talia was the one in charge? I know she told Bane to keep him alive, but that could be more like a loved daughter asking her father figure for a favour. After all he was the adult in their beginning relationship so it seems more likely he would have the influence over her.
The child of Ra's al Ghul (Talia) is another form of Ra's al Ghul's immortality. His child heir to ensure that the League of Shadows fulfilled its mission. She controls the trigger to the nuclear bomb. She gives all the orders after the reveal. She is the strong one who escaped from the Pit.

Bane is revealed to not be Ra's child, Bane could not escape the Pit unlike Talia's accomplishment, he was not the decider over the bomb, he is revealed to be the protector and friend of Talia that loves her, his early death is an intentional Selina Kyle joke punchline like Scarecrow's exit in Batman Begins.

Some examples among others. Not to harp on it, but the reveal is meant to as a reversal of what the audience was misled into believing up until that point.

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:54 PM   #305
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

The movie definitely downplays Bane's importance in that moment in order to crystalize Talia's significance, but it still doesn't take anything away from what Bane accomplished and organized throughout the movie and the loyalty and devotion that his men clearly had for him. And the fact is he does directly disobey the one order we ever see him receive from Talia. That certainly seems like the movie's way of reminding us that he is a man with his own convictions.

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:57 PM   #306
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat View Post
The child of Ra's al Ghul (Talia) is another form of Ra's al Ghul's immortality. His child heir to ensure that the League of Shadows fulfilled its mission. She controls the trigger to the nuclear bomb. She gives all the orders after the reveal. She is the strong one who escaped from the Pit.

Bane is revealed to not be Ra's child, Bane could not escape the Pit unlike Talia's accomplishment, he was not the decider over the bomb, he is revealed to be the protector and friend of Talia that loves her, his early death is an intentional Selina Kyle joke punchline like Scarecrow's exit in Batman Begins.

Some examples among others. Not to harp on it, but the reveal is meant to as a reversal of what the audience was misled into believing up until that point.
Bingo!

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Old 05-28-2013, 08:00 PM   #307
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat View Post
The child of Ra's al Ghul (Talia) is another form of Ra's al Ghul's immortality. His child heir to ensure that the League of Shadows fulfilled its mission. She controls the trigger to the nuclear bomb. She gives all the orders after the reveal. She is the strong one who escaped from the Pit.

Bane is revealed to not be Ra's child, Bane could not escape the Pit unlike Talia's accomplishment, he was not the decider over the bomb, he is revealed to be the protector and friend of Talia that loves her, his early death is an intentional Selina Kyle joke punchline like Scarecrow's exit in Batman Begins.

Some examples among others. Not to harp on it, but the reveal is meant to as a reversal of what the audience was misled into believing up until that point.

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Old 05-28-2013, 08:11 PM   #308
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

Another, much "cooler" way to look at Bane is like this (requires some very slight reading between the lines of the movies)

Bane : Protector of Talia :: Batman : Protector of Gotham
Gotham represents the concept of innocence to Batman
Talia represents the concept of innocence to Bane
Batman is willing to go outside the laws to protect Gotham
Bane is willing to go outside the laws to protect Talia

Bruce Wayne : Heir of Thomas Wayne :: Talia : Heir of Ra's al Ghul
Bruce Wayne : Unsung Hero to the masses :: Talia : Unsung Destroyer to the masses
Bruce Wayne : Recruited to be Ra's' general on the Gotham battlefield until his betrayal :: Bane : Excommunicated and brought in to be Talia's general on the Gotham battlefield

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Old 05-28-2013, 08:31 PM   #309
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Originally Posted by Racer Morose View Post
First you have to solve whether Bane is just Talia's puppy or not.

Talia ordered Bane not to kill Batman and Bane looked at her, weeping in love. Then she left and he became the old strong Bane who takes orders from no one.
There's no problem to solve on if Bane is Talia's puppy or not, imo. Bane is shedding a tear because Talia is leaving, and forever, if the LoS had their way with the destruction of Gotham. I will never understand the concept some have that Bane is a love sick puppy in the end.

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Having a purpose doesn't mean it works. The editing had its purpose but first, it was used for scenes that didn't involve criminals under Batman's attack, and second, it made action a tiresome spectacle that didn't allow people to see Batman and to follow his actions. How can I engage in an action scene when I can't see who's punching who.
While polarizing as much as TDKR is, there are plenty that do like the idea of the camera work in BB.

And it was easy to follow Batman...look for the guy with the black cowl, lol.

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Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat View Post
The child of Ra's al Ghul (Talia) is another form of Ra's al Ghul's immortality. His child heir to ensure that the League of Shadows fulfilled its mission. She controls the trigger to the nuclear bomb. She gives all the orders after the reveal. She is the strong one who escaped from the Pit.

Bane is revealed to not be Ra's child, Bane could not escape the Pit unlike Talia's accomplishment, he was not the decider over the bomb, he is revealed to be the protector and friend of Talia that loves her, his early death is an intentional Selina Kyle joke punchline like Scarecrow's exit in Batman Begins.

Some examples among others. Not to harp on it, but the reveal is meant to as a reversal of what the audience was misled into believing up until that point.
It was a twist to mislead, yes, but that does not take away anything in regards to the Blackgate Prison incident, the siege....there is no proof that it was all Talia's idea. Especially when you can't tell anything about Bane letting Talia know about the Dent lie when he finds out. There's just so many details to view nothing was of Bane's idea.

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Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat View Post
Another, much "cooler" way to look at Bane is like this (requires some very slight reading between the lines of the movies)

Bane : Protector of Talia :: Batman : Protector of Gotham
Gotham represents the concept of innocence to Batman
Talia represents the concept of innocence to Bane
Batman is willing to go outside the laws to protect Gotham
Bane is willing to go outside the laws to protect Talia

Bruce Wayne : Heir of Thomas Wayne :: Talia : Heir of Ra's al Ghul
Bruce Wayne : Unsung Hero to the masses :: Talia : Unsung Destroyer to the masses
Bruce Wayne : Recruited to be Ra's' general on the Gotham battlefield until his betrayal :: Bane : Excommunicated and brought in to be Talia's general on the Gotham battlefield
I would definitely agree to this, but it also doesn't show Bane to be just some sappy henchman either.

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Old 05-28-2013, 08:32 PM   #310
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
The movie definitely downplays Bane's importance in that moment in order to crystalize Talia's significance, but it still doesn't take anything away from what Bane accomplished and organized throughout the movie and the loyalty and devotion that his men clearly had for him. And the fact is he does directly disobey the one order we ever see him receive from Talia. That certainly seems like the movie's way of reminding us that he is a man with his own convictions.
Bingo.

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Old 05-28-2013, 08:53 PM   #311
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

It's a nice piece of foreshadowing when Bane orders Barsad to kill Fredericks, but Talia instead tells him to stop in their little show in the reactor bunker. She prearranged the board meeting just to put those particular gears into motion.

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Old 05-28-2013, 08:56 PM   #312
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

And the little eye contact between the two at the end.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:00 PM   #313
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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It's a nice piece of foreshadowing when Bane orders Barsad to kill Fredericks, but Talia instead tells him to stop in their little show in the reactor bunker. She prearranged the board meeting just to put those particular gears into motion.
Well that's what the boss does

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:19 PM   #314
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

Bane has to seriously be the worst case scenario of being friendzoned. The guy did all of that and still didn't win Talia's heart.

Thought these were funny :




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Old 05-28-2013, 09:33 PM   #315
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There's no problem to solve on if Bane is Talia's puppy or not, imo. Bane is shedding a tear because Talia is leaving, and forever, if the LoS had their way with the destruction of Gotham. I will never understand the concept some have that Bane is a love sick puppy in the end.
That concept comes from the complete opposite behavior Bane displays when she appears.

And he's not only crying because Talia is leaving, he cries because he loves her.

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While polarizing as much as TDKR is, there are plenty that do like the idea of the camera work in BB.

And it was easy to follow Batman...look for the guy with the black cowl, lol.
Ninjas also had black cowls.

I tell you, not showing Batman in action in a Batman movie is bad.




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Bane has to seriously be the worst case scenario of being friendzoned. The guy did all of that and still didn't win Talia's heart.

Thought these were funny :
This is exactly it.

Creating the ultimate terrorist and right at the end of the movie, revealing that he's just a friendzoned big guy...

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:57 PM   #316
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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That concept comes from the complete opposite behavior Bane displays when she appears.

And he's not only crying because Talia is leaving, he cries because he loves her.



Ninjas also had black cowls.

I tell you, not showing Batman in action in a Batman movie is bad.

This is exactly it.

Creating the ultimate terrorist and right at the end of the movie, revealing that he's just a friendzoned big guy...
bingo!
Soon to be quoted.

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Old 05-28-2013, 10:49 PM   #317
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

I still don't get how Bane having the capacity for love and compassion somehow reduces his character. If anything it adds another layer to him.

Nobody can really say that all of Bane's abilities (tactical, physical and verbal) weren't crucial to the plan, otherwise there's no reason for Talia to turn to him in the first place. I think the Emperor/Vader analogy is apt. He's the face and enforcer of the operation and he can give out his own orders and come up with his own strategies without running every little detail by her. The way they were working with her being undercover with another alias, she couldn't really afford to be a hands on leader.

I understand that Bane felt minimized at the end to some degree, but that's mostly because his story was more or less done the minute Bruce defeated him. That right there was the end of "the monster" so to speak. The Bat broke Bane. After that, the focus naturally shifts to Talia, because she's the one holding the detonator, and then later in possession of the bomb.

I also don't see the revelation that Bane didn't escape the pit as a problem because at this point we've already reached a point in the story where Bruce has accomplished that, so it's no longer a case of one person ever being able to do it anyway. We know the secret of how to do it at this point and it's not strength or anger- it's fear. Makes sense that Bane wouldn't be able to get out. He protected Talia with very little regard for his own life in order to allow her a chance to escape. Extremely noble, but that's not the mindset one needs in order to escape hell.

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Old 05-28-2013, 11:03 PM   #318
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
Bane has to seriously be the worst case scenario of being friendzoned. The guy did all of that and still didn't win Talia's heart.

Thought these were funny :



Disappointing that posters continue to discuss this whole "friendzone" idea. But it's 2013, I suppose no one believes a man and a woman can love each other without getting into each other's pants

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That concept comes from the complete opposite behavior Bane displays when she appears.

And he's not only crying because Talia is leaving, he cries because he loves her.
The complete opposite? Which is what, exactly? He's broken down and Talia fixes his mask. He sheds a tear because Talia is telling Batman that Bane was banished because he loves her. He doesn't say anything in regards to Talia wanting Batman to stay alive and after she says her goodbye, Bane tries to kill Batman. Nothing in that scene makes Bane seem like a complete opposite than what we have seen throughout the film.

Hell, if he was a love sick puppy, he wouldn't have wanted to kill Batman!

And he's crying because she's leaving. He cried earlier while Talia was fixing his mask and re-telling their history to Bats.

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Ninjas also had black cowls.
So your argument is now only one scene where Batman actually fights ninjas?

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I tell you, not showing Batman in action in a Batman movie is bad.
I will agree whenever that happens.

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I still don't get how Bane having the capacity for love and compassion somehow reduces his character. If anything it adds another layer to him.

Nobody can really say that all of Bane's abilities (tactical, physical and verbal) weren't crucial to the plan, otherwise there's no reason for Talia to turn to him in the first place. I think the Emperor/Vader analogy is apt. He's the face and enforcer of the operation and he can give out his own orders and come up with his own strategies without running every little detail by her. The way they were working with her being undercover with another alias, that she couldn't really afford to be a hands on leader.

I understand that Bane felt minimized at the end to some degree, but that's mostly because his story was more or less done the minute Bruce defeated him. That right there was the end of "the monster" so to speak. The Bat broke Bane. After that, the focus naturally shifts to Talia, because she's the one holding the detonator, and then later in possession of the bomb.

I also don't see the revelation that Bane didn't escape the pit as a problem because at this point we've already reached a point in the story where Bruce has accomplished that, so it's no longer a case of one person ever being able to do it anyway. We know the secret of how to do it at this point and it's not strength or anger- it's fear. Makes sense that Bane wouldn't be able to get out. He protected Talia with very little regard for his own life in order to allow her a chance to escape. Extremely noble, but that's not the mindset one needs in order to escape hell.


You continue to nail it on the head, BatLobster.

Yahtzee, bingo, correct, agreed, right on the marker


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Old 05-28-2013, 11:34 PM   #319
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You continue to nail it on the head, BatLobster.

Yahtzee, bingo, correct, agreed, right on the marker
Lol, thanks Anno. I'm not exactly sure why, but I'm feeling energized and passionate about the movie again for some reason. It's been about two months now since I've watched it or any of the Nolan Bat-films. What I love about these films is how they live on in your head even when you have some distance from them.

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Old 05-28-2013, 11:45 PM   #320
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I still don't get how Bane having the capacity for love and compassion somehow reduces his character. If anything it adds another layer to him.
Nothing to do with him being able to feel love and compassion. After all he was in love with Talia in the comics.

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Nobody can really say that all of Bane's abilities (tactical, physical and verbal) weren't crucial to the plan, otherwise there's no reason for Talia to turn to him in the first place.
Nobody can say Bane didn't offer his services to her out of love and devotion either. He offered his life for her in the pit when he barely knew her.

The point is how he's presented in the movie when Talia is revealed. He comes across as a second in command to her.

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Old 05-29-2013, 12:15 AM   #321
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Nobody can say Bane didn't offer his services to her out of love and devotion either. He offered his life for her in the pit when he barely knew her.
I have no doubt that his emotional ties to her were a big factor for Bane. Are you saying that Bane could have been the one to initiate the entire plan in the first place? Because that's not entirely impossible, just a less popular theory I suppose.

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The point is how he's presented in the movie when Talia is revealed. He comes across as a second in command to her.
Well, he does seem to technically be second in command. It's almost irrelevant whether he is second in command or they're 50/50 coconspirators because at that point in the movie Talia is taking center stage as the more urgent threat regardless. Personally I think he probably was second in command, following an Emperor/Vader sort of template like I mentioned.

In a more abstract way, I like to think of Bane as an artist and Talia as his muse.

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Old 05-29-2013, 01:10 AM   #322
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I still don't get how Bane having the capacity for love and compassion somehow reduces his character. If anything it adds another layer to him.
League of Shadows specializes in eliminating compassion. That said, a new layer is always welcome, except when it's a last minute thing thrown just for making an end twist work.

And it's not even this capacity for love what's the problem, but the fact that he passed from the ultimate terrorist to a crying obedient man manipulated by a woman.

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Nobody can really say that all of Bane's abilities (tactical, physical and verbal) weren't crucial to the plan, otherwise there's no reason for Talia to turn to him in the first place. I think the Emperor/Vader analogy is apt. He's the face and enforcer of the operation and he can give out his own orders and come up with his own strategies without running every little detail by her. The way they were working with her being undercover with another alias, she couldn't really afford to be a hands on leader.
If when the Emperor appears, Vader starts crying for his love giving him lost puppy eyes, then you get it. I guess the world would have a different vision of Vader if that had happened.

But nobody's saying that Bane doesn't have the skills. He just suddenly lost the personality he was supposed to have.

Anyways, this twist wouldn't have been this unpleasant if Talia actually had a personality that could pose as superior to Bane, and if Bane hadn't lost everything that made him so intimidating when she appeared. But the actress wasn't up to the challenge, and Bane was simply and suddenly written as a bland suffering bleeding heart. And it was all lost when Catwoman simply shot him, making me think "So, it was THIS easy to get rid of the guy?"

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I understand that Bane felt minimized at the end to some degree, but that's mostly because his story was more or less done the minute Bruce defeated him. That right there was the end of "the monster" so to speak. The Bat broke Bane. After that, the focus naturally shifts to Talia, because she's the one holding the detonator, and then later in possession of the bomb.
The focus changed but not naturally. It was forced to Talia, who emerged as a minute that wasn't developed at all since she didn't have the screen time (or charisma) for it.

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I also don't see the revelation that Bane didn't escape the pit as a problem because at this point we've already reached a point in the story where Bruce has accomplished that, so it's no longer a case of one person ever being able to do it anyway. We know the secret of how to do it at this point and it's not strength or anger- it's fear. Makes sense that Bane wouldn't be able to get out. He protected Talia with very little regard for his own life in order to allow her a chance to escape. Extremely noble, but that's not the mindset one needs in order to escape hell.
No, Bane not escaping the pit was not a problem. But to start again with this "so the enemy was not actually him" thing that had alrerady been done in Batman begins was too much. Because at least in BB, the character played by Liam Neeson had a proper development, before and after the big revelation.

But it is Bane, the way he's portrayed in the movie, the one that feels able to overcome fear and escape the pit. Talia is just a character thrown there who you are left to assume was able to take the jump. Nothing in the performance of the character - except for the verbal information - gives the feeling that she's this woman beyond good and evil.

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Old 05-29-2013, 01:53 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
Lol, thanks Anno. I'm not exactly sure why, but I'm feeling energized and passionate about the movie again for some reason. It's been about two months now since I've watched it or any of the Nolan Bat-films. What I love about these films is how they live on in your head even when you have some distance from them.
Lol, I sorta feel the same way. It's been a while since I've seen any of the three films but I continue to think of certain parts of not just one film, but certain moments through the trilogy which just makes me want to see it again, but I don't have much time when I really want to do a marathon again. It's satisfying to know that I still view TDKR to be the best of the trilogy even when I can view my own complaints of the film, and that's a good thing. Even with a few complaints, it shouldn't dampen ones' view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer Morose View Post
League of Shadows specializes in eliminating compassion.
You're generalizing the League of Shadows' view on compassion with criminals to compassion with non-criminals. Bane loving Talia or the other way around should be fine in the eyes of the LoS and the only reason why Bane was banished is because he continued to haunt Ra's al Ghul in seeing only the despair his wife went through in The Pit.

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Old 05-29-2013, 02:26 AM   #324
doobie
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

I just realised. Both TDK and Rises end with a showdown with the main villain, and then a second showdown with another villain, who was created or nurtured by the first villain. And who is presented as good for most of the film.

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Old 05-29-2013, 06:36 AM   #325
Ryan
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post

The point is how he's presented in the movie when Talia is revealed. He comes across as a second in command to her.
Bingo! We have a winner!

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