The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by milost

When I see The Joker's post, for some reason I can't help but see a bit of myself in them.

Given the quality of your posts, that's a big compliment

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by milost

He beat the crud out of Batman with a crow bar, sicced dogs on him and almost choked him to death, definitely immobilized him. He could have killed Batman if he wanted to. The Joker didn't even have training and he took down a seasoned crime fighter that was in his prime! The only way Batman beat him was with his sweet arm blades.

I'd say he got Batman physically in there as well. Batman doesn't even really get a shot in. Sure, he didn't break his back, but he beat the crap out of him and created a situation where Batman had to haul his butt clear across Gotham.



What did Bane do? He beat down a guy with a knee brace who hadn't fought in 8 years and did nothing but mope around in his mansion. Then, he let that same guy heal in a pit, escape the pit (something Bane could never do without help) and then got his ass kicked.

Then he discards any sense of honor when his boss leaves and does something the comic Bane would never do, cowardly puts a gun to his opponents head that bested him fairly in combat. Then without warning, he's sent flying like a rag doll.

A fitting, unmemorable end to his kind. Best thing about the movie character is the memes that are made about him and the raps that are made!

You're really trying to give Joker the winning factor when he uses pipes, dogs and a knife over Bane using his fists? Lol.

Debatable.


"Mah protectah".

A protector = a lackey?

So would Kham be only a lackey to the war elephant Kohm in your eyes too?

Originally Posted by Shikamaru

The difference is that in Knightfall, Batman being worn out was all due to Bane from the beginning. Bane spent several months studying Batman and coming to the conclusion that physical strength alone wasn't enough to beat him so he came up with the plan of breaking all of Arkham's inmates in order to wear down Bruce. After that, he took advantage of Batman's exhausted mind, body, and spirit and decided that that was the moment for him to strike and break the bat. That's the reason why Bane became such a popular villain with the fans in such a short amount of time - he managed to utterly break and destroy Batman by developing & carrying out a well thought plan and by beating Batman at his own game (using prep time against him).

Bruce was already crippled in TDKR prior to the start of the movie so Bane crippling him doesn't have anywhere of the same amount of impact that it did in the book IMO and the fact he gets taken out pretty fast by a still-somewhat-crippled-but-nowhere-as-crippled-as-before Batman doesn't add to the impact it was supposed to have either.


It is specifically the Talia reveal in the third act which ruins Bane in the movie IMO. That's when we learn that he was just a lackey and that Talia was doing the planning all along. By that point, we know absolutely nothing about Bane's character either. Our entire knowledge of him is reduced to nothing. We don't know what he's been saying throughout the movie that was true and what wasn't. The whole backstory about him being the only one other than Bruce to get out of that hole also turns out to be false, which is a shame since it fit Bane really well and was similar to his origin in the comics too.

And I get the difference what Bane did in Knightfall, but in simplest form, Bane fought a weakened Batman. And Bruce was still in great physical shape in TDKR, just eight years off his prime(and even more cocky than what he was in TDK).

Originally Posted by milost

Also, Hans Landa is a much better villain than Bane. One of the greatest.

Hans Landa is better than the Joker as well.

[Shikamaru]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

And I get the difference what Bane did in Knightfall, but in simplest form, Bane fought a weakened Batman.

That's why I don't look at things in simplest form and I look at the big picture overall.

And Bruce was still in great physical shape in TDKR, just eight years off his prime(and even more cocky than what he was in TDK).

Joker brought up a pretty good point:

Originally Posted by The Joker

Baloney. Riding the Bat-Pod and escaping in The Bat doesn't take any extreme stamina. As Alfred so correctly said "You led a bloated Police force a merry chase with a load of fancy new toys from Fox".

As for the fight on the rooftop, taking out a few thugs is not indicative that he was what he was, especially considering he had Selina helping him in that fight, too.

There's nothing that I can really add to that. Plus, if Bruce was still in such a great shape, then there was no reason for him to quit being Batman due to physical reasons and pass the mantle to a rookie cop with no training.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Shikamaru

That's why I don't look at things in simplest form and I look at the big picture overall.

Another noteworthy point about Knightfall is Batman in Knightfall managed to take out most of his enemies Bane freed from Arkham before he faced Bane. Even in a sick condition he managed that. What did Batman in TDKR achieve before he faced Bane? Nothing.

[Eggyman]

Joker. By a mile and then some.

[milost]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

You're really trying to give Joker the winning factor when he uses pipes, dogs and a knife over Bane using his fists? Lol.

Atleast when Joker lost he didn't pull a shot gun out on his enemy who is defenseless and tied up.

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

A protector = a lackey?

Yup, Talia was the brains of the organization, Bane was clearly the brawn. He helped her try and destroy the city, just like he helped her escape the pit.

The exchange at the end with the "twist" really takes Bane to an all new low. He wasn't excommunicated for being too extreme, he was excommunicated because Talia had daddy issues with Ra's, and Bane reminded Ra's of the horrors of the pit prison. Bane didn't make the climb, Talia did. Bane wasn't overlooking the street fight from city hall like a commanding general, Talia did (he was out there with the troops). The energy orb? Talia. The stock exchange? You can see Talia walk in as Miranda Tate by the shoe shiners right before Bane showed up.



All Bane did was the dirty work, Talia was the one in command. After the reveal, Barsad doesn't stay with Bane does he? No, he escorts Talia to the Tumbler.



Bane is really no different than Batman and Robin Bane, the only difference is, Bane in TDKR is actually intelligent (well, sort of, he did let Bruce recuperate inside the cell), can talk and actually says more than "Bane", "bomb" and "monkey". Then again, what TDKR Bane states is ridiculous and hard to hear, unless you watch the movie over and over again and/or have the subtitles on and familiarize yourself with the film.


Bane "done right", has yet to be done. As soon as they made him an ex-LoS and Talia's babysitter and made him cry, they chopped off any balls Bane had. He wasn't even his own man. Would have been nice if he wanted the city for himself (and break it's protector, Batman) like a true revolutionary leader/mercenary with ideals instead of a half assed lie to troll the city for 5 months.

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

So would Kham be only a lackey to the war elephant Kohm in your eyes too?

I don't even know what you're referencing.

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

And I get the difference what Bane did in Knightfall, but in simplest form, Bane fought a weakened Batman. And Bruce was still in great physical shape in TDKR, just eight years off his prime(and even more cocky than what he was in TDK).

Except it was Bane who weakened Batman in Knightfall. It was Bane's intent of tiring Batman down in Knightfall by releasing criminals and super criminals. It was part of Bane's strategy.


In TDKR? Bruce is weak even before he even discovers Bane, and it certainly isn't Bane's doing, if anything it's actually the Joker's.

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Hans Landa is better than the Joker as well.

I respectfully disagree, though Landa is up there (as opposed to "down there" where Bane is).

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Another noteworthy point about Knightfall is Batman in Knightfall managed to take out most of his enemies Bane freed from Arkham before he faced Bane. Even in a sick condition he managed that. What did Batman in TDKR achieve before he faced Bane? Nothing.

Hey, hey, hey! That's not true. He stole an iPad

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

Hey, hey, hey! That's not true. He stole an iPad

That's right he did. Give that man a statue!

[milost]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

Hey, hey, hey! That's not true. He stole an iPad

And punched a guy in the face through his helmet!

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by milost

And punched a guy in the face through his helmet!

Hahaha, about that. Getting off-topic, and this is REAAAALLY nitpicky. But that punch felt so weak. The first time in the theater I actually laughed because I just couldn't help but think "that wouldn't knock out an old lady".

[milost]

Originally Posted by The Joker

That's right he did. Give that man a statue!

Man, that statue. I'm probably alone here but I can't believe the "silent guardian, the watchful protector" had a statue unveiled in his honor. I sat in my seat actually looking like Gordon when that happened. Looked like Gordon couldn't believe it either.


Batman shouldn't get invited or attend fashion shows or public affairs and he certainly shouldn't get statues (I wonder where the sculptor got the reference for such an accurate looking depiction). That's Superman stuff right there.


The unveiling of the Batsignal (and the destruction of the Batsignal) was meaningful enough.

[mandisab]

at least he didnt use a knife on an unconscious batman.

[milost]

You don't know what he was going to do with that knife.


Atleast he didn't say, "you'll just have to imagine the escape and chaos".

[mandisab]

you dont know what the shutgun was for neither

[mandisab]

listen i dont want to start an argument or anything the joker was exellent you cant expect anything less from him but what nolan did with bane was amazing. c`mon guys if you cant even see that then i dont know

[milost]

Yeah, I wonder what he was going to do after saying "you'll just have to imagine the fire" and putting a shot gun up to Batman's head.



And I can't see what's excellent about Bane. As a character, Catwoman isn't even as developed as much and she blows Bane away (lol, pun intended). She's much better, best thing about the movie for me.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Shikamaru

That's why I don't look at things in simplest form and I look at the big picture overall.

So you wanted the big picture to be just like Knightfall to make you like the idea of Bane beating Batman or what? What happens in TDKR fits just fine, imo: Bane defeated a weakened Batman such as he does in Knightfall.

Joker brought up a pretty good point:

So he doesn't do anything to show his physicality between his first return and his bout against Bane, but he DID show his intelligence blending into the shadows as well as his agility against the regular LoS thugs before he met up with Bane.

There's nothing that I can really add to that. Plus, if Bruce was still in such a great shape, then there was no reason for him to quit being Batman due to physical reasons and pass the mantle to a rookie cop with no training.

Where do you get the idea that Bruce retired because of his physical shape?

Originally Posted by milost

Atleast when Joker lost he didn't pull a shot gun out on his enemy who is defenseless and tied up.

Oh man, are you really trying to pull something out of thin air to make someone "better"? Wanting a cheap kill is what comes out of Batman actually being better than Bane that showed and that's why Bane ended up getting a cheap kill. Joker was not like Bane; he didn't become jealous of Batman and only wanted him to be brought down to Joker's level. HUGE difference and something I'd thought you would know besides trying to bring that point up of Bane trying to blow Bruce's head off with a shotgun.

But, that huge difference doesn't make Joker better at all, imo.

Yup, Talia was the brains of the organization, Bane was clearly the brawn. He helped her try and destroy the city, just like he helped her escape the pit.

Until we know that Talia told Bane to reveal the lie about Dent or told Bane to kidnap Dr. Pavel or told Bane to put Gotham City into a martial law state than I refuse to believe Bane is just the brawn as some would love to believe. In fact, it's hilarious how the people who have that mindset are the people who dislike or even hate the film.

The exchange at the end with the "twist" really takes Bane to an all new low. He wasn't excommunicated for being too extreme, he was excommunicated because Talia had daddy issues with Ra's, and Bane reminded Ra's of the horrors of the pit prison. Bane didn't make the climb, Talia did. Bane wasn't overlooking the street fight from city hall like a commanding general, Talia did (he was out there with the troops). The energy orb? Talia. The stock exchange? You can see Talia walk in as Miranda Tate by the shoe shiners right before Bane showed up.

A new low? Talia literally being Bane's Osito and bringing up that concept in TDKR does not take Bane to an all new low at all. Who cares if Bane wasn't ex-communicated by being too extreme since we see how extreme Bane is anyways in TDKR?

And you believe the stock exchange bs of Miranda Tate walking through the doors? You probably believe that you see Heath Ledger at the restaurant in TDK between Harvey, Rachel, Bruce and the ballerina too, huh?

All Bane did was the dirty work, Talia was the one in command. After the reveal, Barsad doesn't stay with Bane does he? No, he escorts Talia to the Tumbler.

How does Barsad escorting Talia mean a damn thing?

Bane is really no different than Batman and Robin Bane, the only difference is, Bane in TDKR is actually intelligent (well, sort of, he did let Bruce recuperate inside the cell), can talk and actually says more than "Bane", "bomb" and "monkey". Then again, what TDKR Bane states is ridiculous and hard to hear, unless you watch the movie over and over again and/or have the subtitles on and familiarize yourself with the film.

Your ignorance of Bane in TDKR is the reason why you probably made such a silly poll/thread in the first place.

Bane "done right", has yet to be done. As soon as they made him an ex-LoS and Talia's babysitter and made him cry, they chopped off any balls Bane had. He wasn't even his own man. Would have been nice if he wanted the city for himself (and break it's protector, Batman) like a true revolutionary leader/mercenary with ideals instead of a half assed lie to troll the city for 5 months.

You sound like the regular ol' nitpicker now that brings up him crying as a "failure" for Bane.

His intelligence, him being a physical presence, him being an expert tactician and strategist, him being a master of disguise, his views on the innocent, Talia being a real-life Osito in the film...oh yah, Bane wasn't done right at all, lol.

I don't even know what you're referencing.

The Protector. A film. But in your eyes, it should be called The Lackey I guess.

Except it was Bane who weakened Batman in Knightfall. It was Bane's intent of tiring Batman down in Knightfall by releasing criminals and super criminals. It was part of Bane's strategy.


In TDKR? Bruce is weak even before he even discovers Bane, and it certainly isn't Bane's doing, if anything it's actually the Joker's.

Really, what is the reason you made this poll? To bad mouth Bane, huh?

I respectfully disagree, though Landa is up there (as opposed to "down there" where Bane is).

Landa is greatly better than any villain in Nolan's trilogy as well as any villain in any CBM. I'm not going to sound biased as some would about it, lol.

[mandisab]

for you!!!

[milost]

That's not Heath Ledger.


But Talia really is at the Stock Exchange. Well, Miranda Tate anyway. Those stock market guys check her out when she comes strolling on in. You should watch TDKR again Anno.

[Anno_Domini]

Again with the stock exchange bs, lol.

[mandisab]

thats not Talia milost lol

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by mandisab

you dont know what the shutgun was for neither

What else do you think he had in mind when he pointed the gun at Batman's face and said "You'll just have to imagine the fire".

Hmmmm that's a real puzzler.

[milost]

http://youtu.be/BAjEW2zgs_o




Very beginning. If you know anything about camera work, you'd know that they're focusing on her walking through the door. She's wearing and holding the same stuff she did in other scenes. She's the point of that shot. Also listen to what they say, "Bruce coming back", "change is either a good thing or bad", "flip a coin". And the camera literally follows her as the guys check her out. It's "ironic" and foreshadowing.


They hint that Miranda Tate is in this thing all along, even with her dialogue. I guess you guys missed the Ra's Al Ghulesque crap she was spewing in her speeches at her party?

[mandisab]

are you the bodyguard?? you my friend can`t accept anything outside the joker and what do you think the joker was going to do with bats show him his favorite blade?

[mandisab]

milost stop watching it on youtube and see it in blu ray pause it and notice this girls fine features her hair is almost blone unlike talia.