The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

[Shikamaru]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

So you wanted the big picture to be just like Knightfall to make you like the idea of Bane beating Batman or what? What happens in TDKR fits just fine, imo: Bane defeated a weakened Batman such as he does in Knightfall.

It is not the same thing. Beating a weakened man that YOU yourself weakened on purpose and beating a weakened man that was already weakened from the beginning due to reasons that have nothing to do with you are two completely different things.

I wanted the big picture to be Bane either taking down Batman at his prime all by himself or Bane being the reason to why Bruce is weakened in the first place and then taking him down. Then it would've had the same impact on people that it did in the comics.

If you didn't mind, then that's fine with me but I personally did.

So he doesn't do anything to show his physicality between his first return and his bout against Bane, but he DID show his intelligence blending into the shadows as well as his agility against the regular LoS thugs before he met up with Bane.

That's still not enough. Blending into the shadows and taking down a few thugs is not exactly a Batman at his peak, especially since we've seen him do so many more impressive things in the previous 2 movies like taking down a whole SWAT team at the end of TDK.

Also, we still don't know if those were LoS thugs. If you think about it, the LoS doesn't appear at any point in the movie. Bane's mercenaries do appear but they're referred to as "Bane's mercenaries" the whole time and they don't even look like how the LoS looked like in Batman Begins. The only reference we get to the LoS being in the movie is Bane and Talia saying that they (Bane and Talia respectively) are the LoS but the LoS itself never makes an appearance and if Bane's mercenaries are supposed to be the LoS, then that is never made clear.

Where do you get the idea that Bruce retired because of his physical shape?

I never believed that to be the case but that is one of the reasons the Nolanites like to throw around to justify Bruce hanging up the cape and cowl. I never believed that to be the case since he showed more than enough physical endurance to continue throughout the movie.

Heck, I never bought the idea that Bruce is really that severely injured. Yes, I know that he is supposed to be severely injured and crippled since the movie makes a big deal out of that but I still don't know where exactly he got those injuries because the movie never explains it and I don't buy that it was from that fall in TDK either.

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Nothing. It's Bane working for Talia that riles people the wrong way.

I don't remember anything that says Bane was working under her. I've always seen it as a partnership.

He took Gotham hostage for several months, and what happened in those several months? Nothing. Cops were locked under ground, alive, and well fed. The rich people were thrown on the ice. The rest of Gotham just seemingly kept their heads down.

Most boring city siege ever.

The plan was to blow up the city on its scheduled date while the citizens ripped the town apart. After the takeover, it was time to wait while the people did the dirty work.

Yeah, and in those few days we saw a more terrified chaotic Gotham City than we ever saw during Bane's 5 month dragged out quiet siege. Give me Judges and Police Commissioners getting blown away, mobs of angry panicked citizens trying to assassinate a citizen, Gotham hospital being blown up, a city wide evacuation, Gotham Police HQ getting blown up, Cops cars and helicopters getting destroyed in epic chase scenes etc over the dull happenings during Bane's pointless siege.

The Joker did what he does best, but he didn't turn the city into a police state, cut off from the world, which is no feat to brush off.

Really? Where did we see the city in an uproar over the revelation of the Dent lie? The only reaction I saw was Blake's moral posturing to Gordon.

Uproar, perhaps not. But he destroys the symbol of Harvey Dent to take away the people's perceived nobility of the government and notions of social order to fuel the Gothamities' rampaging.

Baloney. Riding the Bat-Pod and escaping in The Bat doesn't take any extreme stamina. As Alfred so correctly said "You led a bloated Police force a merry chase with a load of fancy new toys from Fox".

As for the fight on the rooftop, taking out a few thugs is not indicative that he was what he was, especially considering he had Selina helping him in that fight, too.

He escapes a manhunt, kicks henchmen ass like always, makes his way through tunnels and gunfire in the dark to make it to Bane. For a guy who hasn't Batmaned in eight years, he does pretty well, as if he never left. Not a single screw up until he runs into the wall that is Bane.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg Bop

I don't remember anything that says Bane was working under her. I've always seen it as a partnership.

Yeah but not everyone sees it that way. A lot of people feel as soon as Talia was revealed it was clear he was doing it all for her.

Which it does. I was wondering why Bane would care about completing Ra's Al Ghul's work when Ra's had kicked him out of the LOS.

The plan was to blow up the city on its scheduled date while the citizens ripped the town apart. After the takeover, it was time to wait while the people did the dirty work.

I know what the plan was. That doesn't change a thing I said.

The Joker did what he does best, but he didn't turn the city into a police state, cut off from the world, which is no feat to brush off.

Not the point. I'm not talking about the feat he pulled off. It's easy to do something like that when you inherit a ready made society like the LOS and all the knowledge and resources they have with it handed to you on a silver plate, like Batman's identity. There's nothing impressive about that. The point made is what Joker did was far more interesting than what Bane did. With Joker's reign of terror you saw it tear Gotham and it's people apart. You saw anarchy and chaos every time he popped up.

What did you see during Bane's siege besides a few frightened sheep citizens hiding in their houses, and rich folk being sent to the ice by Crane. It was boring. Filler material for Bruce to find his fear again and train himself back up and escape the pit.

Uproar, perhaps not. But he destroys the symbol of Harvey Dent to take away the people's perceived nobility of the government and notions of social order to fuel the Gothamities' rampaging.

How do you know that? Where did you see anything like that? Where did you even hear one regular citizen's reaction to it?

He escapes a manhunt, kicks henchmen ass like always, makes his way through tunnels and gunfire in the dark to make it to Bane. For a guy who hasn't Batmaned in eight years, he does pretty well, as if he never left. Not a single screw up until he runs into the wall that is Bane.

Lets see:

1. "You led a bloated Police force a merry chase with a load of fancy new toys from Fox". So much for the manhunt.
2. Kicks henchmen ass? What a few thugs on the roof with the HELP of Selina?
3. Able to dodge gun fire in a pitch black tunnel, and get the element of surprise with the aid of Selina as a distraction to the men? I am so impressed.

[JackWhite]

We should have had more moments where Bane shows that he's in control of his Gotham and is at least two steps ahead of Gordon and Blake. Like when he intercepted the special ops team shortly after they made there arrival in Gotham. But instead we got the, I hate to say it; boring subplot of "which truck is the bomb on?"

This is why I rolled my eyes when we found out that the supposed earthquake machine was indeed just a nuke.

[Excelsior.]

I always had a problem with Bane equating the despair of Gothamites to that of the prisoners in his pit. He claimed to have given them hope, similar to how the chasm of the pit gave hope to the prisoners. But the prisoners would rot in their cells, slowly, failing to grasp that hope every single miserable day until their deaths. While the Gothamites would only fathom blinding light for a milisecond and then nothingness. Hardly a despair warranting comparison.

[BatLobsterRises]

Gothamites had 5 months to fathom the fact that at any moment, something could cause the triggerman to set the nuke off. Bane also knew that not every Gothamite would join his revolution, and the majority of people would be paralyzed with fear and simply hoping that they wouldn't die...which is exactly what happened.

[JackWhite]

The idea of Bane giving Gotham hope and then taking it away was actually very chilling. It's just the execution falls flat on it's face after Bane has his epic speech at Blackgate.

A wasted opportunity, indeed.

[BatLobsterRises]

I thought Bane presiding over Crane's kangeroo court (implied as the executioner) was pretty chilling too.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Gothamites had 5 months to fathom the fact that at any moment, something could cause the triggerman to set the nuke off. Bane also knew that not every Gothamite would join his revolution, and the majority of people would be paralyzed with fear and simply hoping that they wouldn't die...which is exactly what happened.

I just wanted to see more of the citizens POV with dealing with such a traumatic event. It would have really intensified Bruce's race to recovery to get back to Gotham had we seen more brutality and despair; like when Bane had the special ops hung from the bridge. That was extremely unsettling. I love that scene.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I thought Bane presiding over Crane's kangeroo court (implied as the executioner) was pretty chilling too.

The kangergoo court thing could have really went somewhere, especially when Gordon was on trial, but it never quite got there. Still, it was a good starting off point.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Shikamaru

It is not the same thing. Beating a weakened man that YOU yourself weakened on purpose and beating a weakened man that was already weakened from the beginning due to reasons that have nothing to do with you are two completely different things.

I wanted the big picture to be Bane either taking down Batman at his prime all by himself or Bane being the reason to why Bruce is weakened in the first place and then taking him down. Then it would've had the same impact on people that it did in the comics.

If you didn't mind, then that's fine with me but I personally did.

I would have liked to see the bold happen(either of those) as well, but what happened worked for the film I think, imo.

I LOVE this line, though: "Peace has cost you your strength. Victory has defeated you."

That's still not enough. Blending into the shadows and taking down a few thugs is not exactly a Batman at his peak, especially since we've seen him do so many more impressive things in the previous 2 movies like taking down a whole SWAT team at the end of TDK.

Also, we still don't know if those were LoS thugs. If you think about it, the LoS doesn't appear at any point in the movie. Bane's mercenaries do appear but they're referred to as "Bane's mercenaries" the whole time and they don't even look like how the LoS looked like in Batman Begins. The only reference we get to the LoS being in the movie is Bane and Talia saying that they (Bane and Talia respectively) are the LoS but the LoS itself never makes an appearance and if Bane's mercenaries are supposed to be the LoS, then that is never made clear.

Woah, woah, woah....before I reply...are you saying the mercenaries are just that? Mercenaries not related to the League of Shadows and they belong to Bane? If so then 1.) That totally rips the idea of Bane being just a "lackey" as some would love to accept since they are Bane's guys and him and Talia are indeed just co-conspirators, and 2.) The League doesn't exist except for Bane and Talia who are in league(no punt intended) with just each other.

But, anyways, back to answering your post...showing some of his prowess is enough to know that Bruce still has some "getup" to him even if it's not exactly like taking out SWAT teams as before. He just needed to get his mind right and train and then he could be an equal to Bane in battle as seen in round two between them.

I never believed that to be the case but that is one of the reasons the Nolanites like to throw around to justify Bruce hanging up the cape and cowl. I never believed that to be the case since he showed more than enough physical endurance to continue throughout the movie.

Heck, I never bought the idea that Bruce is really that severely injured. Yes, I know that he is supposed to be severely injured and crippled since the movie makes a big deal out of that but I still don't know where exactly he got those injuries because the movie never explains it and I don't buy that it was from that fall in TDK either.

So we are in agreement there then. I never believed Bruce to have retired because of his physical shape; I only believed Bruce to retire because it was just time for him to leave the cape and cowl behind. He's beyond his prime thanks to him being away from the cape and cowl for eight years and now knowing how Alfred feels about how Bruce needs to leave Gotham City for good.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by JackWhite

I just wanted to see more of the citizens POV with dealing with such a traumatic event. It would have really intensified Bruce's race to recovery to get back to Gotham had we seen more brutality and despair

That was a massively important trait sorely missing in TDKR. When there's a siege of Gotham and a so called revolution then we should see the citizens reactions and how they're dealing with it. We didn't even see what they thought about the Harvey Dent cover up. The press was there at Blackgate and all when Bane revealed it and we didn't get so much as a facial reaction from them.

Very disappointing.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by JackWhite

We should have had more moments where Bane shows that he's in control of his Gotham and is at least two steps ahead of Gordon and Blake. Like when he intercepted the special ops team shortly after they made there arrival in Gotham. But instead we got the, I hate to say it; boring subplot of "which truck is the bomb on?"

Bane was only a step ahead of them because of his "mole", Talia.

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

I always had a problem with Bane equating the despair of Gothamites to that of the prisoners in his pit. He claimed to have given them hope, similar to how the chasm of the pit gave hope to the prisoners. But the prisoners would rot in their cells, slowly, failing to grasp that hope every single miserable day until their deaths. While the Gothamites would only fathom blinding light for a milisecond and then nothingness. Hardly a despair warranting comparison.

I think the "blinding hope" was given in the film, but mostly to the 99%-ers who thought they could run this martial state that Gotham City is in without knowing the truth of the nuke having a countdown and it didn't matter that there was a trigger as it was going to go off anyways.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by JackWhite

I just wanted to see more of the citizens POV with dealing with such a traumatic event. It would have really intensified Bruce's race to recovery to get back to Gotham had we seen more brutality and despair; like when Bane had the special ops hung from the bridge. That was extremely unsettling. I love that scene.

I guess I'm of the opinion that the film as plenty bleak and full of despair without delving further into the extremities of the events of Gotham. As a fan, sure, I would've loved to see more, but when trying to be objective, I have to wonder if it would've been overkill to spend more time wallowing in the suffering of Gothamites when it's pretty clear that they're not living under the best of circumstances and life as they know it has essentially stopped.

The scene where they hung the special forces from the bridge worked perfectly as a way to get you rooting for Bruce to get out of there. Would 4 more scenes like that really have made us root any more for him? Those are the things we have to ask. Redundancy is rarely a good thing in filmmaking, although again...I could have probably sat through a 4 hour TDKR and not complained. But that's me speaking as a fan.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by The Joker

That was a massively important trait sorely missing in TDKR. When there's a siege of Gotham and a so called revolution then we should see the citizens reactions and how they're dealing with it. We didn't even see what they thought about the Harvey Dent cover up. The press was there at Blackgate and all when Bane revealed it and we didn't get so much as a facial reaction from them.

Very disappointing.

That struck me as odd the very first time I saw TDKR.

Everything was set up so perfectly through the montage, but there was no real fallout from Bane's initial takeover, just fleeting bits here and there.

[Anno_Domini]

What the bits were, though, were pretty amazing shots to show the city taking this new martial law attitude. The Tumbler rolling through the snowy road, cars piling up covering a tunnel, Selina and Jen making their way into an empty house that belonged to a one percenter.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

What the bits were, though, were pretty amazing shots to show the city taking this new martial law attitude. The Tumbler rolling through the snowy road, cars piling up covering a tunnel, Selina and Jen making their way into an empty house that belonged to a one percenter.

And that's just it. I can understand some people feeling left a bit cold and the way things were kind of skimmed over. But I have to still tip my hat to Nolan for using such potent imagery to convey the feeling of a fallen city with such economy.

He said he was trying to incorporate some influence from the silent film era, and it shows.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I guess I'm of the opinion that the film as plenty bleak and full of despair without delving further into the extremities of the events of Gotham. As a fan, sure, I would've loved to see more, but when trying to be objective, I have to wonder if it would've been overkill to spend more time wallowing in the suffering of Gothamites when it's pretty clear that they're not living under the best of circumstances and life as they know it has essentially stopped.

The scene where they hung the special forces from the bridge worked perfectly as a way to get you rooting for Bruce to get out of there. Would 4 more scenes like that really have made us root any more for him? Those are the things we have to ask. Redundancy is rarely a good thing in filmmaking, although again...I could have probably sat through a 4 hour TDKR and not complained. But that's me speaking as a fan.

Well, we didn't need another "extreme" like the bridge hanging scene. Just little stuff like the citizens and even the remaining cops questioning Batman's validity vs Harvey's downfall, and Gordon's decision to go along with the coverup.

If the whole nuke thing would have either been done differently or taken out completely, then you could have easily had this in the second act. I still think you can keep the bomb, but handle it a little better.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

What the bits were, though, were pretty amazing shots to show the city taking this new martial law attitude. The Tumbler rolling through the snowy road, cars piling up covering a tunnel, Selina and Jen making their way into an empty house that belonged to a one percenter.

Yes, those were indeed great shots. Expand on that stuff and less tracking the bomb and it would have made for a better second act, IMO.

What is frustrating is a lot of this stuff is there, but almost sparingly and it never really goes places like in TDK. I'm not asking for another ferry boat situation, just more expansions of the consequences from the film before. The biggest one that riles me up is Gordon not having any sort of mea culpa. Oh how that scene would have been great.

[JackWhite]

But anyways, let's stay on topic gentlemen.

I can honestly say I enjoyed Bane's prologue just as much as the Jokers. The Joker prologue has the edge because of how big it is, whereas Bane's is more claustrophobic. Only thing that annoys me is the terrible nu-dub. Bane's original dialogue was chilling in that scene.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

And that's just it. I can understand some people feeling left a bit cold and the way things were kind of skimmed over. But I have to still tip my hat to Nolan for using such potent imagery to convey the feeling of a fallen city with such economy.

He said he was trying to incorporate some influence from the silent film era, and it shows.

Oh, all of Nolan's talk of the silent era and what not, and it shows what exactly about the silent era influenced what when you see some of the imagery. Heck, I would even give the example of Bane vs Batman in the sewers with zero music in the background.

Originally Posted by JackWhite

Yes, those were indeed great shots. Expand on that stuff and less tracking the bomb and it would have made for a better second act, IMO.

What is frustrating is a lot of this stuff is there, but almost sparingly and it never really goes places like in TDK. I'm not asking for another ferry boat situation, just more expansions of the consequences from the film before. The biggest one that riles me up is Gordon not having any sort of mea culpa. Oh how that scene would have been great.

What gets me is that, I wouldn't mind expansions at all, but I get less irritated when I know of the IMAX restraints. And while some would want to see less of it, I think tracking the bomb has more to do with giving Robin some screen time than focusing on the bomb. Nolan wanted to show that someone was doing their best in making things right and it happened to be Robin, lol.

[BatLobsterRises]

Another area in comparing the two is...as amazing as Joker's music is, I think Zimmer outdid himself with all of Bane's music in TDKR. Some of that stuff is just really incredible.

I particularly am in love with the cue from "The Fire Rises", which plays during the montage of the siege/Bane's speech. That is just insanely powerful stuff. I also love how the same motif is able to simultaneously from this big, evil LOS version of the "Imperial March" while also serving as an epic triumphant return/battle theme when Batman and Bane fight again at the end. It's a really great way to illustrate how the tables have turned (because after all Bruce has "earned" the chant, Bane actually hasn't). Some people fault Zimmer for writing in such broad strokes, but I think it really paid off here.

They're just such different villains. When you set aside all the fanboyish stuff like who was able to "accomplish" more (cause face it- that's only comparing what Chris/Jonah/Goyer chose for each of them to accomplish), Bane just allowed the story to go in a direction that wouldn't have been appropriate for a story with The Joker, and vice versa. The villain choices in this series almost carry a whole sub-genre with them into their respective films.

[Anno_Domini]

Hans Zimmer did the music to that Bible miniseries...I think I became interested in watching it as soon as I heard that earlier today, lol.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Another area in comparing the two is...as amazing as Joker's music is, I think Zimmer outdid himself with all of Bane's music in TDKR. Some of that stuff is just really incredible.

I particularly am in love with the cue from "The Fire Rises", which plays during the montage of the siege/Bane's speech. That is just insanely powerful stuff. I also love how the same motif is able to simultaneously from this big, evil LOS version of the "Imperial March" while also serving as an epic triumphant return/battle theme when Batman and Bane fight again at the end. It's a really great way to illustrate how the tables have turned (because after all Bruce has "earned" the chant, Bane actually hasn't). Some people fault Zimmer for writing in such broad strokes, but I think it really paid off here.

They're just such different villains. When you set aside all the fanboyish stuff like who was able to "accomplish" more (cause face it- that's only comparing what Chris/Jonah/Goyer chose for each of them to accomplish), Bane just allowed the story to go in a direction that wouldn't have been appropriate for a story with The Joker, and vice versa. The villain choices in this series almost carry a whole sub-genre with them into their respective films.

Agreed! I freakin' love Bane's theme and the rest of the soundtrack. Especially "Why Do We Fall?"

[Happy Jack]

Joker and Bane are in many ways opposites as far as villains go so it's not appropriate to compare them. I think they were both equally effective for what they were.