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View Poll Results: Which villain do you prefer, which one is better?
The Joker 74 78.72%
Bane 20 21.28%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-14-2013, 12:18 AM   #126
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
Another area in comparing the two is...as amazing as Joker's music is, I think Zimmer outdid himself with all of Bane's music in TDKR. Some of that stuff is just really incredible.

I particularly am in love with the cue from "The Fire Rises", which plays during the montage of the siege/Bane's speech. That is just insanely powerful stuff. I also love how the same motif is able to simultaneously from this big, evil LOS version of the "Imperial March" while also serving as an epic triumphant return/battle theme when Batman and Bane fight again at the end. It's a really great way to illustrate how the tables have turned (because after all Bruce has "earned" the chant, Bane actually hasn't). Some people fault Zimmer for writing in such broad strokes, but I think it really paid off here.

They're just such different villains. When you set aside all the fanboyish stuff like who was able to "accomplish" more (cause face it- that's only comparing what Chris/Jonah/Goyer chose for each of them to accomplish), Bane just allowed the story to go in a direction that wouldn't have been appropriate for a story with The Joker, and vice versa. The villain choices in this series almost carry a whole sub-genre with them into their respective films.
Agreed. I loved the first bit of "The Fire Rises", which plays during the motorcycle chase scene. Fantastic score. Rise, The Fire Rises, Gotham's Reckoning, Wayne Manor Theme, Selina Kyle Theme, Orphan Theme, Bane Theme, Mind if I Cut In?, Underground Army, Born in Darkness, Despair, Fear Will Find You, Why Do We Fall?, Imagine the Fire, Necessary Evil, No Stone Unturned, The Shadows Betray You, The End, All Out War, Risen From Darkness. All are fantastic scores.

Bane and Joker are both fantastic villains for me, I can't pick just one.

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Old 03-14-2013, 12:27 AM   #127
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Originally Posted by Happy Jack View Post
Joker and Bane are in many ways opposites as far as villains go so it's not appropriate to compare them. I think they were both equally effective for what they were.
True.

One villain wants to bring Batman down on his level and see if Bats can break his rule of killing as well as tearing down the soul of an entire city to create more "freaks" like him.

The other is someone that is trying to break down this hero of a city that should have been destroyed years ago but wasn't and when Batman returns it angered Bane to a point where he feels he needs to get just a cheap death out of it since he knows Batman is hands down the better man.

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Old 03-14-2013, 12:42 AM   #128
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

In short...Joker was the better villain to "beat" Batman, and Bane was the better villain for Batman to beat.

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Old 03-14-2013, 08:17 AM   #129
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

That's not a bad way of looking at it.

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Old 03-14-2013, 10:47 AM   #130
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

I choose the Joker because I want to know how he got those scars.

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Old 03-14-2013, 11:55 AM   #131
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Not the point. I'm not talking about the feat he pulled off. It's easy to do something like that when you inherit a ready made society like the LOS and all the knowledge and resources they have with it handed to you on a silver plate, like Batman's identity. There's nothing impressive about that. The point made is what Joker did was far more interesting than what Bane did. With Joker's reign of terror you saw it tear Gotham and it's people apart. You saw anarchy and chaos every time he popped up.

What did you see during Bane's siege besides a few frightened sheep citizens hiding in their houses, and rich folk being sent to the ice by Crane. It was boring. Filler material for Bruce to find his fear again and train himself back up and escape the pit.
I'm not out to compare the two villains. I simply think that Bane's accomplishments are great in their own respect and not bantha fodder, even if he had a co-conspirator.

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How do you know that? Where did you see anything like that? Where did you even hear one regular citizen's reaction to it?
It's when he gives that speech. The people don't say, they react. All that storming, raiding, and violence from Gotham citizens happens after that speech.

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1. "You led a bloated Police force a merry chase with a load of fancy new toys from Fox". So much for the manhunt.
2. Kicks henchmen ass? What a few thugs on the roof with the HELP of Selina?
3. Able to dodge gun fire in a pitch black tunnel, and get the element of surprise with the aid of Selina as a distraction to the men? I am so impressed.
Well what's wrong with Batman having help? Batman is only a convincing hero working the fields solo? Selina is not a crutch he leans on.

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Old 03-14-2013, 12:04 PM   #132
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Well what's wrong with Batman having help? Batman is only a convincing hero working the fields solo? Selina is not a crutch he leans on.
Dontcha know, Bats only works alone. That's why he has fought alongside four Robins, Batgirl, Catwoman...

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Old 03-14-2013, 01:08 PM   #133
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
I would have liked to see the bold happen(either of those) as well, but what happened worked for the film I think, imo.

I LOVE this line, though: "Peace has cost you your strength. Victory has defeated you."
Fair enough. I personally didn't like it.

I love a lot of Bane's lines. My personal favorites would be these though:

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it. Molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was a grown man, by then it was nothing to me but blinding!"

"Ah, yes. I was wondering what would break first. Your spirit...or your body."

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Woah, woah, woah....before I reply...are you saying the mercenaries are just that? Mercenaries not related to the League of Shadows and they belong to Bane?
I'm not saying that to definitely be the case. I'm saying that the movie never establishes who they are. We don't know if they're the LoS or if they're just mercenaries working for Bane. It is left completely ambiguous.

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If so then 1.) That totally rips the idea of Bane being just a "lackey" as some would love to accept since they are Bane's guys and him and Talia are indeed just co-conspirators,
You know what? That's actually a really good point. I admit I haven't thought of that. If those are indeed Bane's guys and not the LoS, then Bane and Talia are indeed co-conspirators. However, like I said before, whether or not those guys are the LoS is left completely ambiguous thus Bane working either for or with Talia is also left ambiguous.

If he is working with her and not for her, the final scene with Bane is even more confusing now since that specific scene clearly shows that Talia is the big bad all along and that Bane was just working under her. Notice how even Bane's attitude changes after the Talia reveal to more of a lackey attitude.

Also, it wouldn't be much of a surprise for me either if those really are Bane's guys and Bane is Talia's lackey at the same time. Seeing how almost every single scene in the movie is contradicted by another scene in the movie, it wouldn't surprise me by this point if that was indeed the case.

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and 2.) The League doesn't exist except for Bane and Talia who are in league(no punt intended) with just each other.
It's never stated that they are in league with each other. Bane and Talia both say individually and at different times "I am the LoS". You can still have the League being made up of only Bane and Talia and have Bane working under Talia.

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But, anyways, back to answering your post...showing some of his prowess is enough to know that Bruce still has some "getup" to him even if it's not exactly like taking out SWAT teams as before. He just needed to get his mind right and train and then he could be an equal to Bane in battle as seen in round two between them.
Like I said before though, it still didn't have anywhere of the impact that it did in the book due to Bruce being apparently weakened (and I say apparently because I still don't get how all those injuries showed up just out of thin air) and not weakened by Bane himself but by...well...whatever he got weakened by in Nolan's head. lol

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So we are in agreement there then. I never believed Bruce to have retired because of his physical shape; I only believed Bruce to retire because it was just time for him to leave the cape and cowl behind. He's beyond his prime thanks to him being away from the cape and cowl for eight years and now knowing how Alfred feels about how Bruce needs to leave Gotham City for good.
Those are my biggest problems with the movie. Why did he hang up the cape and cowl to begin with for 8 years? Everything from BB and TDK gave you the idea and feeling that he was going to continue being Batman, especially TDK's ending. The Dent Act isn't really a valid reason because you can't have a deus ex machina act that magically just gets rid of organized crime plus it only gets rid of organized crime and unorganized crime can be even more dangerous than organized crime since there is no one to hold the criminals by a leash - if anything, Gotham would need Batman now more than ever. That and the fact that BB and TDK (but mostly TDK) brought in the whole "freaks" theme from The Long Halloween, which was the idea that Gotham's mob would fall soon and more freaks like the Joker would show up, which is why Batman is needed because only he can handle them, which is why Harvey was corrupted while he wasn't. Nolan just ignored and contradicted TDK altogether with TDKR, except for the fact that Dent died.

And why was it time for him to leave the cape and cowl behind if he could still go on being Batman physically, which we both agree on? The movie's ending is one of the biggest anti-Batman messages I've ever seen in any Batman adaptation. Batman is the last superhero to ever retire because he wants to hang up the cape and cowl and because he wants a peaceful life. What makes Batman so interesting is that even though he always wanted that, he knows he can't have it because Gotham will always need Batman. You might defend the ending by saying "Nolan's Batman is not supposed to have that same mentality" but I would argue that based on TDK's ending, he got there already or was on his way of getting there.

On top of that, even if you can justify Bruce hanging up the cape and cowl, it is still incredibly stupid that he passed the mantle to a rookie cop that doesn't even have 1/10 of the required skills in order to be Batman. Bruce left Gotham and left his mantle and burden on the shoulders of a guy that would realistically get murdered on his first night out.

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Old 03-14-2013, 01:28 PM   #134
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

I am surprised that this is a poll. Everyone will pick Joker, myself included.

Ledger's Joker is one of the finest villains in film history. Hardy is a great villain in the genre, but the Joker from TDK transcends that. Still, I like both and want to throw in Harvey Dent is a great one too.

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Old 03-14-2013, 02:17 PM   #135
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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I'm not out to compare the two villains. I simply think that Bane's accomplishments are great in their own respect and not bantha fodder, even if he had a co-conspirator.
That's fair enough if you feel that way. As I told you not everyone does see it the same way you do.

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It's when he gives that speech. The people don't say, they react. All that storming, raiding, and violence from Gotham citizens happens after that speech.
Yes, because Bane basically said martial law is in effect, and the poor and lower class get to raid the rich people's homes and cast them out into the cold. That's nothing to do with Dent. The only reason Bane was at Blackgate was to set free Dent's prisoners because they were locked up under a lie.

What you seem to be forgetting is Bane's revolution never relied on the Dent lie. It couldn't have anyway because Bane learned about it purely by accident when he found the letter on Gordon. He had already set up camp in Gotham by then with his plan well under way. The Dent lie discovery was just a bonus justification to set loose a bunch of inmates from Blackgate.

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Well what's wrong with Batman having help? Batman is only a convincing hero working the fields solo? Selina is not a crutch he leans on.
There's nothing wrong with Batman having help. It's not like he didn't get help in BB and TDK with Gordon driving the Tumbler, or Lucius manning the Sonar tech etc.

You're missing the point. You said he was what he used to be just because he took out some thugs. That doesn't make him what he was, as Alfred pointed out several times in the movie. The reason I bring up Selina is because up until TDKR he never had help taking out goons in fights. He had Selina helping him take them out in the two situations you mentioned. That's a first. It doesn't make Bruce the Batman he was in BB and TDK. He never had any physical aid taking out the LOS or Falcone's men in BB, or Joker's goons or the SWAT teams in TDK. He did all that solo. That's Batman in his prime.

Someone used Knightfall as a comparison to Bane beating a weakened Batman. That's true in both Knightfall and TDKR, Bane only won because Batman was not in his prime. But the difference is prior to being broken by Bane, in Knightfall he took out nearly every one of his enemies Bane freed from Arkham, and he was sick and physically wrecked doing that.

In TDKR, prior to Bane breaking him all he did was lead the Cops on a fancy chase with his new toys, and beat up a few thugs with Catwoman's help. Not impressive, and certainly not worthy of him being the Batman he used to be, which the movie goes to great pains to tell the audience.

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Old 03-14-2013, 02:30 PM   #136
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

I still think Bane was vicious enough that he could have potentially beaten Batman in his prime. The Joker was indifferent to pain, so Batman had nothing to do with all that strength. Similarly, Bane doesn't feel pain, only he has the strength to match Batman and is probably stronger and more ferocious in his fighting style. He's a total barbarian that is used to killing people with his bare hands. Batman's a great fighter, but he's just not quite that brutal.

Not looking to reopen that debate, but I feel a meeting between Bane and Batman in BB or TDK could have gone either way. It's not so much about comparing what the villain "accomplished" in the script for me, it's about comparing what their attributes and capabilities are, what they represent as an archetype.

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Old 03-14-2013, 04:53 PM   #137
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Fair enough. I personally didn't like it.

I love a lot of Bane's lines. My personal favorites would be these though:

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it. Molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was a grown man, by then it was nothing to me but blinding!"

"Ah, yes. I was wondering what would break first. Your spirit...or your body."
Indeed, Bane has some great lines as that's a trend with Nolan's trilogy. Ra's al Ghul, The Joker, Bane...all great lines from the three villains.

And back to your examples though....I remember when a "rumor" was made that TDKR would begin right after TDK where Batman rushes his way to the Batcave only to be stopped at a bridge by Bane where then Bane "Breaks the Bat". Remember that one?

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I'm not saying that to definitely be the case. I'm saying that the movie never establishes who they are. We don't know if they're the LoS or if they're just mercenaries working for Bane. It is left completely ambiguous.
Oh, I agree. The League of Shadows is only mentioned by Bane and Talia and that's why I felt they were the LoS and the men were just there to be this 'League of Shadows 2.0' that weren't even using a ninja moniker as seen in Batman Begins(although when Bruce enters the LoS' headquarters in the beginning, we did see the members in the same kind of clothing), but the idea of they just being regular mercenaries and only Bane's men is really interesting and a new way of thinking. Thanks for actually giving me something new to think about with TDKR

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You know what? That's actually a really good point. I admit I haven't thought of that. If those are indeed Bane's guys and not the LoS, then Bane and Talia are indeed co-conspirators. However, like I said before, whether or not those guys are the LoS is left completely ambiguous thus Bane working either for or with Talia is also left ambiguous.

If he is working with her and not for her, the final scene with Bane is even more confusing now since that specific scene clearly shows that Talia is the big bad all along and that Bane was just working under her. Notice how even Bane's attitude changes after the Talia reveal to more of a lackey attitude.

Also, it wouldn't be much of a surprise for me either if those really are Bane's guys and Bane is Talia's lackey at the same time. Seeing how almost every single scene in the movie is contradicted by another scene in the movie, it wouldn't surprise me by this point if that was indeed the case.
I still don't get that "lackey" vibe. I mean, the one order Talia tries to make and Bane doesn't even listen. Bane was more like a protector and was just being an accomplice at that moment while Talia stabbed Batman but when Talia has to leave, saying their goodbyes, Bane then decides to just kill Batman before the bomb goes off.

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It's never stated that they are in league with each other. Bane and Talia both say individually and at different times "I am the LoS". You can still have the League being made up of only Bane and Talia and have Bane working under Talia.
Or have them just working side by side. I think the idea that Bane is working under Talia and not just with her is because Talia's doing all of this because of her father, but Bane has just the same right of being a co-conspirator when he has men, when he is doing more than half of the plan while Talia sits back as this mole with being Miranda Tate. While Ra's treated Bane like crap, he does care for Talia and would devise this plan together.

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Like I said before though, it still didn't have anywhere of the impact that it did in the book due to Bruce being apparently weakened (and I say apparently because I still don't get how all those injuries showed up just out of thin air) and not weakened by Bane himself but by...well...whatever he got weakened by in Nolan's head. lol
The leg comes from the ending of TDK as is explained by Nolan and the other injuries mentioned by that doctor...I assumed it was from that year when Bruce was Batman and they just never fully healed, but I still never saw those reasons to keep Bruce from continuing as Batman since nothing stopped him in the previous two films.

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Those are my biggest problems with the movie. Why did he hang up the cape and cowl to begin with for 8 years? Everything from BB and TDK gave you the idea and feeling that he was going to continue being Batman, especially TDK's ending. The Dent Act isn't really a valid reason because you can't have a deus ex machina act that magically just gets rid of organized crime plus it only gets rid of organized crime and unorganized crime can be even more dangerous than organized crime since there is no one to hold the criminals by a leash - if anything, Gotham would need Batman now more than ever. That and the fact that BB and TDK (but mostly TDK) brought in the whole "freaks" theme from The Long Halloween, which was the idea that Gotham's mob would fall soon and more freaks like the Joker would show up, which is why Batman is needed because only he can handle them, which is why Harvey was corrupted while he wasn't. Nolan just ignored and contradicted TDK altogether with TDKR, except for the fact that Dent died.
I never got the bold for TDK. I see the escalation factor of the mob taking their last resort and getting Joker to help them, but when Joker talked about something that could imply more freaks showing up after Dent is shown to have gone to the "dark side" as well, it didn't happen when they saved face with Dent and kept him as this 'White Knight'. That to me showed that Nolan wasn't even going to bring up a "rise of freaks".

And going by Rachel's speech in BB, the organized crime is the main issues and something that gave Bruce the reason to be Batman and taking out that element, while obviously not factual, kept a lot of crime out of Gotham City. When Rachel said guys like Falcone creates guys like Joe Chill, it showed that Nolan's version had the organize crime being the main factor for crimes in Gotham. Taking out Batman's goal of cleaning up Gotham and you have nothing for Batman to do besides wasting the police's time and giving chase, thus Bruce decided to retire for eight years.

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And why was it time for him to leave the cape and cowl behind if he could still go on being Batman physically, which we both agree on? The movie's ending is one of the biggest anti-Batman messages I've ever seen in any Batman adaptation. Batman is the last superhero to ever retire because he wants to hang up the cape and cowl and because he wants a peaceful life. What makes Batman so interesting is that even though he always wanted that, he knows he can't have it because Gotham will always need Batman. You might defend the ending by saying "Nolan's Batman is not supposed to have that same mentality" but I would argue that based on TDK's ending, he got there already or was on his way of getting there.
Both Nolans and Goyer repeatedly mentioned how they wanted Bruce Wayne to finally leave Gotham and leave the painful memories and yes, saying that, I know that's not Batman at all, but it does give some fine closure to a story arc that did become very polarized from the beginning to Batman not being the "detective" many wanted to see and TDK changing its tone that I'm not blind enough to see does get some "hate".

And The Batman will continue in the form of Robin John Blake. It's all in the imagination of people, but I see Robin training first before he dons a suit.

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On top of that, even if you can justify Bruce hanging up the cape and cowl, it is still incredibly stupid that he passed the mantle to a rookie cop that doesn't even have 1/10 of the required skills in order to be Batman. Bruce left Gotham and left his mantle and burden on the shoulders of a guy that would realistically get murdered on his first night out.
But you're thinking this without thinking of the many possibilities: Robin training, Robin only using the computer in helping out the GCPD like an Oracle-type route, maybe even training himself and then training the orphans as "followers" of Batman. It's all in the imagination of the viewer.

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Old 03-14-2013, 04:59 PM   #138
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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I still think Bane was vicious enough that he could have potentially beaten Batman in his prime. The Joker was indifferent to pain, so Batman had nothing to do with all that strength. Similarly, Bane doesn't feel pain, only he has the strength to match Batman and is probably stronger and more ferocious in his fighting style. He's a total barbarian that is used to killing people with his bare hands. Batman's a great fighter, but he's just not quite that brutal.

Not looking to reopen that debate, but I feel a meeting between Bane and Batman in BB or TDK could have gone either way. It's not so much about comparing what the villain "accomplished" in the script for me, it's about comparing what their attributes and capabilities are, what they represent as an archetype.
Bane could've definitely given a Batman in his prime trouble. Bruce got better, trained a bit, climbed out of the Pit and only beat Bane because he got lucky with his gauntlets. That's all.

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Old 03-14-2013, 05:19 PM   #139
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

Joker>Two-face>Ra's>Bane>Scarecrow>Talia

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Old 03-14-2013, 05:36 PM   #140
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

Talking about all the villains...I think I'd personally rank it as

Bane
Joker
Ra's al Ghul
Two-Face
Scarecrow
Talia

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Old 03-14-2013, 06:00 PM   #141
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

In terms of preference

Joker
Two-Face
Catwoman (I can include her if I want! )
Bane (higher than in the comics)
Ra's Al Ghul (lower)
Scarecrow
Talia

Overall, they got a lot of them in there with only three movies.

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Old 03-14-2013, 07:02 PM   #142
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

I preferred Bane's character/motivations/method/jackets (lol). Joker's "you wanna know how I got these scars" were a great way to tell us Joker's motive and homage to "one bad day."

As DA says, they did well for 3 films; the only villain I'm really eager to see recycled from this trilogy is Scarecrow. Nolan didn't even scratch the surface of what could be done with Scarecrow.

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Old 03-14-2013, 07:17 PM   #143
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

this really isn't a contest , lol. as good as bane was we all know joker's the superior villain.

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Old 03-14-2013, 07:20 PM   #144
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Thumbs up Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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this really isn't a contest , lol. as good as bane was we all know joker's the superior villain.

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Old 03-14-2013, 07:34 PM   #145
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Joker>Two-face>Ra's>Bane>Scarecrow>Talia
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Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
Talking about all the villains...I think I'd personally rank it as

Bane
Joker
Ra's al Ghul
Two-Face
Scarecrow
Talia
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Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
In terms of preference

Joker
Two-Face
Catwoman (I can include her if I want! )
Bane (higher than in the comics)
Ra's Al Ghul (lower)
Scarecrow
Talia


Overall, they got a lot of them in there with only three movies.
I see a trend, lol.

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this really isn't a contest , lol. as good as bane was we all know joker's the superior villain.
No, we all don't know.

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Old 03-14-2013, 07:36 PM   #146
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

Hell, I'd rank Maroni, Falcone, and Daggett ahead of Talia.

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Old 03-14-2013, 07:38 PM   #147
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

Falcone and Maroni, yes.

Daggett....ehhh, I'll need to think on that one.

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Old 03-14-2013, 07:44 PM   #148
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Falcone and Maroni, yes.

Daggett....ehhh, I'll need to think on that one.
haha, I really enjoyed Daggett. I was really shocked at how he was shouting down at Bane, until he decided to put him inline.

His defiance made his end that much more satisfying.

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Old 03-14-2013, 07:51 PM   #149
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

Daggett was entertaining, I agree, but I still don't know if I'd place him above Talia.

I always wondered what the big ruckus was about his death scene though. I thought Bane was just slowly twisting his head around as one hand was over Daggett's face and the other was resting on his shoulder. Watching The Dark Knight Returns Part 2 reminded me of how that's how it played out with Daggett(how Joker's head was twisted and he finished the job himself).

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Old 03-14-2013, 07:57 PM   #150
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

I enjoyed Striver quite a bit too. Such a piece of slime, haha.

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