The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

No, I would not. Mr. Freeze was terrible in B&R. But that kinda goes in line with the new Chechen or Talia debate. Like Mr. Freeze, Chechen was entertaining, but that's all they have over characters like Scarecrow and Talia, lol.

That's why they're better villains. If you're more entertained by a villain then you rate them higher don't you? That's why my Mr. Freeze analogy is so apt. You don't see him topping people's lists just because he froze all of Gotham.

Talia may have been boss of the LOS and heir to it all, but that didn't make her a great villain. She was dull as ditch water for the most part and very under used. That's why she's the bottom of most people's lists. It's easy too see why others rate the mob heads higher than her. They were more fun to watch.

The major mob bosses like Falcone and Maroni are definitely better than Talia. Other ones like Chechen, Gambol or I'll even include Lau...don't think I'd place them above Talia.

That's your preference.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I know it may seem ridiculous to you, but to me, yes it is inherently more complex. I just felt seeing Bane depicted as the outcast to Bruce's "favored son" was rich storytelling. If you think of Ra's as a father figure to both of them, it's fascinating that Bruce would reject the father, Bane would be rejected BY the father...and then be on a mission to prove his superiority to both of them. It's just very literary, archetypal stuff that I find emotionally engrossing and interesting.

That's not the theme, nor is it even explored. It's all misdirection.

Alfred: "Who leads the LOS now?"
Bruce: "Ra's Al Ghul was the LOS and I beat him. Bane is just a mercenary"

Bruce: "You were the mercenary. Bane is your child. Your heir"
Ra's: "An heir to ensure the LOS fulfills it's destiny"

Then there was Alfred telling Bruce the rumors surrounding Bane escaping the pit.

Then we learn not only did Bane not escape the pit as we were led to believe, nor is he the son of Ra's, but Talia is the real child and heir of the LOS, and she escaped the pit, and she was the reason they were here to honor her father by completing his work. Bane was just the protector doing it because he loved Talia. His only "crime".

It's not an exact comparison, but I feel the similarity is there. Kraven wants to hunt Spidey to prove he's the best game hunter in the world. Bane storms into Gotham with the intent to break the Batman and show that he's the big boss in town. Mind you, neither of those are bad characterizations, they work. I just think in a movie, it's nice to get something beyond that.

The only similarity is that they both wanted to take down the hero. That's it. Kraven was already a big successful game hunter who had bagged every kind of dangerous animal there was. He just decided to up the ante and target Spider-Man.

Bane had not proved his worth at all when he came to Gotham.

Yeah, but Bane had to have done time on his own as a mercenary. Clearly his appearance in TDKR wasn't his first rodeo.

Yeah Alfred told us that. He was behind some kind of coup in West Africa securing mining operations for John Daggett.

What's your point? He was already set up with the LOS by Talia at this point.

And he might've escaped the pit if he hadn't been so devoted to protecting Talia

Conjecture. You think he just arrived in the pit when Talia's mother was attacked and he just decided to play protector? That he never tried to escape the pit before and failed?

It's a moot point anyway. He never escaped the pit. He never demonstrated he was someone extraordinary like that and an equal to Bruce in any way. Talia was that. She found the strength to escape the pit like Bruce did. Ra's was her father like he was a father figure to Bruce. They were both trained by Ra's. They had both rejected Ra's.

So in a way, the entire story is put into motion due to a simple act of kindness from Bane.

Actually the story was put in motion with Mrs. Al Ghul selflessly taking Ra's place in the pit.

Stealing millions wouldn't be enough to buy them a nuke

How do you know? And what's stopping them from accumulating enough to buy one?

Furthermore they could have stolen a nuke, just like they stole the Microwave emitter from W.E. in Begins.

[BatLobsterRises]

Now...these the multi-quoting TDKR debates...rising from where we tried to bury them...

I blame milost, lol.

Originally Posted by The Joker

That's not the theme, nor is it even explored. It's all misdirection.

Alfred: "Who leads the LOS now?"
Bruce: "Ra's Al Ghul was the LOS and I beat him. Bane is just a mercenary"

Bruce: "You were the mercenary. Bane is your child. Your heir"
Ra's: "An heir to ensure the LOS fulfills it's destiny"

Then there was Alfred telling Bruce the rumors surrounding Bane escaping the pit.

Then we learn not only did Bane not escape the pit as we were led to believe, nor is he the son of Ra's, but Talia is the real child and heir of the LOS, and she escaped the pit, and she was the reason they were here to honor her father by completing his work. Bane was just the protector doing it because he loved Talia. His only "crime".

You're right. It's not the theme, nor is it explored. But I do think the subtext is there. Obviously Bane isn't literally the son of Ra's. But he can still be viewed as a surrogate son that Ra's "adopted", and then rejected. Which parallels the way Ra's was like a surrogate father to Bruce, who Bruce then rejected. The parallels aren't just there coincidentally. It added a layer to the story.

I'm gonna skip ahead and connect this with another part of your post:

Originally Posted by The Joker

It's a moot point anyway. He never escaped the pit. He never demonstrated he was someone extraordinary like that and an equal to Bruce in any way. Talia was that. She found the strength to escape the pit like Bruce did. Ra's was her father like he was a father figure to Bruce. They were both trained by Ra's. They had both rejected Ra's.

Yes, I agree the parallel is absolutely there with Talia as well, but it doesn't negate the emotional complexity of Bane being being the outcast of that "family", but remaining loyal to Talia and serving her father's ideals. I don't think that makes him weak, I think that's precisely what makes him interesting. Anyway, I think it's best to view Bane/Talia almost as a single entity for the purposes of exploring the thematic elements of TDKR.

Originally Posted by The Joker

The only similarity is that they both wanted to take down the hero. That's it. Kraven was already a big successful game hunter who had bagged every kind of dangerous animal there was. He just decided to up the ante and target Spider-Man.

Bane had not proved his worth at all when he came to Gotham.

Isn't that getting a bit into the semantics and not looking at the big picture? Here's the first sentence of the Marvel Universe Wiki for Kraven:

Kraven was a maniacal big game hunter who sought to defeat Spider-Man to prove that he was the greatest hunter in the world.

I don't care about what they had done prior to coming to Gotham/New York, I'm just talking about the general idea behind the characters. Both Bane and Kraven want to be the "champion" and take down the hero for the sport of it, without having any existing personal vendetta with the hero.

Originally Posted by The Joker

Yeah Alfred told us that. He was behind some kind of coup in West Africa securing mining operations for John Daggett.

What's your point? He was already set up with the LOS by Talia at this point.

My point is if he was exiled from the LOS prior to Batman Begins, that means he had to have spent the past 9 or so years doing something. The guy has to eat, and his skill-set is pretty limited to various acts of violence, lol. They don't call him a mercenary for nothin'.

Originally Posted by The Joker

Conjecture. You think he just arrived in the pit when Talia's mother was attacked and he just decided to play protector? That he never tried to escape the pit before and failed?

True. I'll give you that, he probably tried and failed- like everyone else who used the rope. But Bruce had his failed attempts to. I'm just saying, after he was attacked (and saw that it might be more possible to escape without using the rope) I think he was too messed up to ever be able to try again.

Originally Posted by The Joker

Actually the story was put in motion with Mrs. Al Ghul selflessly taking Ra's place in the pit.

Also true. But still, Bane had an important role to play in the way things unfolded, which I thought was a nice touch.

Originally Posted by The Joker

Ummm they didn't buy the nuke. They stole it from W.E., just like they stole the Microwave emitter from W.E. in Begins.

I know. That's just my way of saying that things like bank robberies are kind of small potatoes compared to scale that the LOS operates on. And that's no knock to The Joker at all. I just think it's apples and oranges.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Now...these the multi-quoting TDKR debates...rising from where we tried to bury them...

You're right actually. This feels like old road with you, too. Not that that's a bad thing. Just somewhat redundant.

I blame milost, lol.

Lol true, but I like his style, so that's a compliment to us both.

Yes, I agree the parallel is absolutely there with Talia as well, but it doesn't negate the emotional complexity of Bane being being the outcast of that "family", but remaining loyal to Talia and serving her father's ideals. I don't think that makes him weak, I think that's precisely what makes him interesting. Anyway, I think it's best to view Bane/Talia almost as a single entity for the purposes of exploring the thematic elements of TDKR.

But it's not an emotional complexity. It's a straight forward case of doing it for someone he loves. Where is the complexity? Just like how he put his life on the line to protect her in the pit when he had nothing to gain from that other than he loved her. He was doing it for her. Just like he was doing it for her again 9 years later in Gotham.

How that is a more complex or interesting version of Bane than the comics is beyond me. It's a watered down version who is robbed of nearly everything that makes him a great villain. Not a self made man, never discovered Batman's identity himself, never escaped the hell hole prison he grew up in himself etc.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Hardy's Bane, but for me it's easily a weaker version of the comics. The look of the character is leaps and bounds above the comics Bane though.

I don't care about what they had done prior to coming to Gotham/New York, I'm just talking about the general idea behind the characters. Both Bane and Kraven want to be the "champion" and take down the hero for the sport of it, without having any existing personal vendetta with the hero.

It's not semantics, it's apples and oranges. Kraven had already got a reputation as the greatest hunter. He was famous for it. Who was Bane prior to coming to Gotham? A nobody who spent his life rotting in a prison for his father's crimes.

Bane was out to prove he was more than that. Kraven was just out to prove he was the best at what he already does. The only similarity is they both wanted to beat the hero.

My point is if he was exiled from the LOS prior to Batman Begins, that means he had to have spent the past 9 or so years doing something. The guy has to eat, and his skill-set is pretty limited to various acts of violence, lol. They don't call him a mercenary for nothin'.

They called him a mercenary because of the aforementioned antics Alfred mentioned. You might as well ask what was Talia doing for the last 9 years, too.

True. I'll give you that, he probably tried and failed- like everyone else who used the rope. But Bruce had his failed attempts to. I'm just saying, after he was attacked (and saw that it might be more possible to escape without using the rope) I think he was too messed up to ever be able to try again.

Again that's conjecture. You could say that of any one of the prisoners in that pit. The point is Bane didn't escape the pit. Nobody did except Bruce and Talia. Bane never demonstrated he was any kind of equal to Bruce, or capable of anything extraordinary like escaping that pit.

Talia did.

Also true. But still, Bane had an important role to play in the way things unfolded, which I thought was a nice touch.

Of course. I'm not denying his vital role in the story.

I know. That's just my way of saying that things like bank robberies are kind of small potatoes compared to scale that the LOS operates on. And that's no knock to The Joker at all. I just think it's apples and oranges.

I know, that wasn't my point though. You had mentioned Bruce came from wealth. That shouldn't have been an obstacle for Bane. It sure wasn't in the comics. I was saying Bane could have been rolling in millions, too, if he wanted to.

If the Joker can afford to burn a giant pyramid of money and still take over Gotham, then Bane can, too.

[MagnarTheGreat]

Bane is more interesting than The Joker. I think The Joker had better written dialogue for him though, and a more personal interest in Batman. And obviously after the Blackgate prison break scene Bane doesn't say much of anything but The Joker has more to do in TDK. Ultimately Bane is not a loner type of character that someone like the The Joker was depicted as.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by The Joker

That's why they're better villains. If you're more entertained by a villain then you rate them higher don't you? That's why my Mr. Freeze analogy is so apt. You don't see him topping people's lists just because he froze all of Gotham.

Talia may have been boss of the LOS and heir to it all, but that didn't make her a great villain. She was dull as ditch water for the most part and very under used. That's why she's the bottom of most people's lists. It's easy too see why others rate the mob heads higher than her. They were more fun to watch.



That's your preference.

A better villain, to me, would be a villain that actually acts like one, i.e., being sinister enough. Chechen was just entertaining with his obsession of his dogs. Gambol was an idiot for trying to teach Joker some manners. Mr. Freeze? I actually preferred Poison Ivy more in B&R than Freeze, lol.

But, let us both not forget that we're both listing Talia in the very last section of our favorite villains of Nolan's trilogy, lol. I just wouldn't put Freeze over Talia if we're talking about every live-action Batman film.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

A better villain, to me, would be a villain that actually acts like one, i.e., being sinister enough.

So you prefer a better class of criminal?

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

So you prefer a better class of criminal?

[bane]

Well, I guess everyone can guess who I voted for

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by The Joker

You're right actually. This feels like old road with you, too. Not that that's a bad thing. Just somewhat redundant.



Lol true, but I like his style, so that's a compliment to us both.

Yeah, I wasn't knocking the guy. He's feisty and a pretty merciless debater, so I guess some of his mega-posts have reawakened a bit of that fire from last summer/fall. It's not a bad thing, but you're right it's quite redundant because when it comes to the regulars of these debates we all know where we all stand on certain things. Oh well, lol. Even if we know we're not going to change the other's minds, at least hopefully it provides some food for thought for everyone else and a jumping off point for other discussions.

Originally Posted by The Joker

But it's not an emotional complexity. It's a straight forward case of doing it for someone he loves. Where is the complexity? Just like how he put his life on the line to protect her in the pit when he had nothing to gain from that other than he loved her. He was doing it for her. Just like he was doing it for her again 9 years later in Gotham.

To me the complexity is in him being able to reconcile being exiled by Ra's with his devotion and loyalty to Talia, and I think there is a definite hint of him wanting to succeed where Ra's failed and go down in history as his superior. The love and devotion for Talia is straight forward, but yet it's another twisted notion that this guy who cherished the innocence of one child so much and was noble enough to die for her is also willing to kill 12 million people because of that same fierce loyalty and devotion. Maybe complex isn't even the right word, I just find it a bit more intriguing than what's offered in the comics. Maybe it just speaks to me never having been the biggest fan of Bane in the comics that I preferred a version that was so closely tied to the LOS. I do enjoy Bane in the comics don't get me wrong, I just don't feel he was ever capitalized to his full potential in that medium. I respect Chuck Dixon's vision for the character though, it definitely filled a void in Batman rogues' gallery. And if I'm not mistaken, I think he said he was very happy with the way Bane was used in TDKR.

Originally Posted by The Joker

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Hardy's Bane, but for me it's easily a weaker version of the comics. The look of the character is leaps and bounds above the comics Bane though.

Yeah, agreed about the aesthetics. And it's fine if you like comics Bane more. That's fair enough and I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here, it's all just a matter of preference.

Originally Posted by The Joker

It's not semantics, it's apples and oranges. Kraven had already got a reputation as the greatest hunter. He was famous for it. Who was Bane prior to coming to Gotham? A nobody who spent his life rotting in a prison for his father's crimes.

Bane was out to prove he was more than that. Kraven was just out to prove he was the best at what he already does. The only similarity is they both wanted to beat the hero.

I sorrta see what you mean, but to me that implies some sort of inferiority complex with Bane in the comics (which I suppose is arguably there). Who was he trying to prove it to? Himself? Batman? Everybody? If it's everybody, then that goes back to what I was saying about him being ego-centric. There are any number of ways Bane could prove his worth, but he specifically gravitates towards breaking Batman and taking over Gotham. Why? Because he had nightmares about a bat? It all just seems a bit shallow to me, but then again I'm sure that's how you feel about TDKR Bane so we're right back to square one, haha.

Originally Posted by The Joker

They called him a mercenary because of the aforementioned antics Alfred mentioned. You might as well ask what was Talia doing for the last 9 years, too.

I'm just saying, I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption that the guy did some "freelance" mercenary work during the time gap. Lindy Hemming even talked about how his wardrobe was designed around the idea that he had collected bits of it around the world. And his attire looks nothing like traditional LOS attire, it's way more militaristic.

Originally Posted by The Joker

Again that's conjecture. You could say that of any one of the prisoners in that pit. The point is Bane didn't escape the pit. Nobody did except Bruce and Talia. Bane never demonstrated he was any kind of equal to Bruce, or capable of anything extraordinary like escaping that pit.

Talia did.

Well, yes, he didn't escape the pit. That's why Bruce is ultimately the better man. Still, I think Bane demonstrated some very extraordinary capabilities in the movie. Not even Ra's pulled off anything as audacious as that plane hijacking/abduction. The only other character in the story that I could picture doing something like that is Bruce himself...who kind of did with Lau in TDK.

Originally Posted by The Joker

I know, that wasn't my point though. You had mentioned Bruce came from wealth. That shouldn't have been an obstacle for Bane. It sure wasn't in the comics. I was saying Bane could have been rolling in millions, too, if he wanted to.

I brought up Bruce's wealth because both he and Bane engage in a very high scale, tactical style of warfare compared to The Joker who was all about using the simplest tools to cause the most carnage. So my point was Bruce had his fortune, Bane had the LOS's resources (as well as W.E. Applied Sciences', which was a great strategic move). Both he and Bruce inherit something powerful and use it for their cause.

And also, Daggett did say he paid Bane a small fortune. So yeah, I think Bane could have just been a career mercenary and done just fine for himself- if he wanted to, like you said. Clearly the guy could handle himself and had a talent for tactical destruction. I can see that you felt it robbed Bane of something to take away the fact that he escaped the prison on his own and make that untrue, but I guess I didn't think deflating Bane's legend made him a "worse" character. I thought it was pretty clever how they kind of played our expectations and comics knowledge against us for that twist, but still kept Bane an essential cog in the wheel of story. Just a slightly different role than we went in thinking.

I know you had a few more points, but honestly I'm just gonna cut myself short here (if you can call this "short") because I feel kind of cumbersome rehashing a lot of the stuff I had been saying months ago.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Y
To me the complexity is in him being able to reconcile being exiled by Ra's with his devotion and loyalty to Talia, and I think there is a definite hint of him wanting to succeed where Ra's failed and go down in history as his superior. The love and devotion for Talia is straight forward, but yet it's another twisted notion that this guy who cherished the innocence of one child so much and was noble enough to die for her is also willing to kill 12 million people because of that same fierce loyalty and devotion. Maybe complex isn't even the right word, I just find it a bit more intriguing than what's offered in the comics. Maybe it just speaks to me never having been the biggest fan of Bane in the comics that I preferred a version that was so closely tied to the LOS. I do enjoy Bane in the comics don't get me wrong, I just don't feel he was ever capitalized to his full potential in that medium.

See this goes back to what I already said before; in what way is it a complexity if he's simply doing it for someone he loves? He was willing to die just protect her as a child in the pit. He had nothing to gain from doing that back then. It was just sheer devoted loyalty to a loved one. Now if he was willing to do that then why wouldn't he stick with her just because he was kicked out of the LOS? That's nothing by comparison.

This what I mean by watering down Bane. He's essentially doing it all out of love and devotion to someone else. I don't see that as complex, or more interesting.

I respect Chuck Dixon's vision for the character though, it definitely filled a void in Batman rogues' gallery. And if I'm not mistaken, I think he said he was very happy with the way Bane was used in TDKR.

Yes, he was: http://batman-news.com/2012/07/23/ba...-knight-rises/

I sorrta see what you mean, but to me that implies some sort of inferiority complex with Bane in the comics (which I suppose is arguably there). Who was he trying to prove it to? Himself? Batman? Everybody? If it's everybody, then that goes back to what I was saying about him being ego-centric. There are any number of ways Bane could prove his worth, but he specifically gravitates towards breaking Batman and taking over Gotham. Why? Because he had nightmares about a bat? It all just seems a bit shallow to me, but then again I'm sure that's how you feel about TDKR Bane so we're right back to square one, haha.

Bane wants to prove to himself his worth. His zeal to beat Batman and take over Gotham are drawn from his own personal demons and experiences. Yes, Bane had been haunted by nightmares of a demonic bat creature. A similar parallel to Bruce being haunted by the image of a bat and why he chose to be Batman. Bane heard all the tales of Gotham from his right hand man, Bird, who was a native of Gotham. Gotham fascinates Bane because, like Peña Dura, fear rules Gotham, but it is the fear of the Batman. Bane is convinced that Batman is the demonic bat which haunted his dreams since childhood. Therefore, Bane believes fate placed Batman on a collision course with him.

That to me is far more interesting and complex than doing it all out of love and loyalty to a woman.

I'm just saying, I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption that the guy did some "freelance" mercenary work during the time gap. Lindy Hemming even talked about how his wardrobe was designed around the idea that he had collected bits of it around the world. And his attire looks nothing like traditional LOS attire, it's way more militaristic.

Maybe he did. It's conjecture as it's never elaborated on. When Alfred researches Bane that's all he turns up on his mercenary activities. The African coup for Daggett. He can't be much of an infamous mercenary if that's all Alfred could find.

Well, yes, he didn't escape the pit. That's why Bruce is ultimately the better man. Still, I think Bane demonstrated some very extraordinary capabilities in the movie. Not even Ra's pulled off anything as audacious as that plane hijacking/abduction. The only other character in the story that I could picture doing something like that is Bruce himself...who kind of did with Lau in TDK.

Lets be honest, it's easy to take a city hostage when you've got a huge nuclear bomb and the trigger in your hand. Ra's was more subtle in his methods of doing things,, but he was still able to infiltrate every level of Gotham's infrastructure. He just did it in a more quiet way without needlessly attracting attention.

It's easy to do what Bane did when you get handed a ready made organization like the LOS with all their knowledge and resources. Imagine what the Joker could have done with them, given what he could already do on his own with just a few drums of gas and couple of bullets

I brought up Bruce's wealth because both he and Bane engage in a very high scale, tactical style of warfare compared to The Joker who was all about using the simplest tools to cause the most carnage. So my point was Bruce had his fortune, Bane had the LOS's resources (as well as W.E. Applied Sciences', which was a great strategic move). Both he and Bruce inherit something powerful and use it for their cause.

Oh yeah, I know what you meant by your analogy. I was just saying that Bane could have become something just as good if not better without needing the LOS as a crutch. Money shouldn't have been an obstacle for him.

The Joker financed his own operations by swiping 68 million in a simple bank heist. He probably had more than that, too, already since it seems he has a habit of theft and is obviously well known to Batman and Gordon: "Him again".

Once you have that kind of money you can buy what you like.

And also, Daggett did say he paid Bane a small fortune. So yeah, I think Bane could have just been a career mercenary and done just fine for himself- if he wanted to, like you said.

I didn't even think of that one. I'd forgotten Daggett said he'd paid him.

I know you had a few more points, but honestly I'm just gonna cut myself short here (if you can call this "short") because I feel kind of cumbersome rehashing a lot of the stuff I had been saying months ago.

Ditto. But as always it's been a pleasure.

[milost]

After seeing the last page or two, I just asked my self, "Batman Forever Riddler" or "TDKR Bane".


I'd probably go with Riddler. Yeah, he's bad and over the top, but he's more interesting and entertaining. He's also deeper. They really played out that "stalker" characterization with him. He was literally infatuated with Bruce Wayne, trying to go as far as being him. As far as accomplishments go, I'd even say he achieved far more.



Bane just seems like a Joker rip off, and Ra's to some extent. He does similar things to the Joker (actions) but has the same ideals (sort of) and quotes of Ra's. I mean some of the stuff you're mentioning like the Prologue, or blowing up the city or Dagget's head twisting was all there with the Joker, except done better. Compare the Joker heist to Bane on a plane, Joker wins that one. All the damage Joker did in Dark Knight? It easily tops what Bane did on a spectacle level, atleast the Steelers weren't all at the hospital taking up screen time. Gambol, "why so serious" scene? Easily better than Bane tickling Dagget or whatever he was doing.


And Bane better than the comics character? Are you guys serious? The comics version is way more developed, has a moral code and a pretty great origin. Like Joker said, he's a self made man who rose up from nothing. You guys are dissing him because he wanted "to prove himself to Batman"? Atleast Comic Bane's motivation wasn't because of little Talia and being her "protector".


Other than appearance, just compare Comic Bane to TDKR Bane. TDKR Bane? TDKR Bane's is much more compelling? What's there to like that the comic version doesn't have? What makes him better? Hurting Batman's back? Comic Bane did that, actually broke it too. His origin? Comic Bane's is much better and actually quite sad. Being helped escape from Jail by the LoS? Comic Bane escaped himself and the prison was much more dangerous.

Hardy's performance isn't even that great, in my opinion. Anyone could have played the role. Then that voice, I can't believe that's what they went with. Anyone remember the Heinz field recoding, how everyone hated it and said "man, he won't sound like that"? In the end he actually did. LOL


He's pretty good for memes and funny quotes and impersonations but then again, so is Arnold's Mr. Freeze.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by bane

Well, I guess everyone can guess who I voted for

Your name is bane but your avvy is of Joker...so I don't know...lol.

Originally Posted by milost

After seeing the last page or two, I just asked my self, "Batman Forever Riddler" or "TDKR Bane".


I'd probably go with Riddler. Yeah, he's bad and over the top, but he's more interesting and entertaining. He's also deeper. They really played out that "stalker" characterization with him. He was literally infatuated with Bruce Wayne, trying to go as far as being him. As far as accomplishments go, I'd even say he achieved far more.



Bane just seems like a Joker rip off, and Ra's to some extent. He does similar things to the Joker (actions) but has the same ideals (sort of) and quotes of Ra's. I mean some of the stuff you're mentioning like the Prologue, or blowing up the city or Dagget's head twisting was all there with the Joker, except done better. Compare the Joker heist to Bane on a plane, Joker wins that one. All the damage Joker did in Dark Knight? It easily tops what Bane did on a spectacle level, atleast the Steelers weren't all at the hospital taking up screen time. Gambol, "why so serious" scene? Easily better than Bane tickling Dagget or whatever he was doing.


And Bane better than the comics character? Are you guys serious? The comics version is way more developed, has a moral code and a pretty great origin. Like Joker said, he's a self made man who rose up from nothing. You guys are dissing him because he wanted "to prove himself to Batman"? Atleast Comic Bane's motivation wasn't because of little Talia and being her "protector".


Other than appearance, just compare Comic Bane to TDKR Bane. TDKR Bane? TDKR Bane's is much more compelling? What's there to like that the comic version doesn't have? What makes him better? Hurting Batman's back? Comic Bane did that, actually broke it too. His origin? Comic Bane's is much better and actually quite sad. Being helped escape from Jail by the LoS? Comic Bane escaped himself and the prison was much more dangerous.

Hardy's performance isn't even that great, in my opinion. Anyone could have played the role. Then that voice, I can't believe that's what they went with. Anyone remember the Heinz field recoding, how everyone hated it and said "man, he won't sound like that"? In the end he actually did. LOL


He's pretty good for memes and funny quotes and impersonations but then again, so is Arnold's Mr. Freeze.

You're crazy if you don't know that the bold can be the same for Joker as well.

And yah, I would still say TDKR Bane is much of an improvement than the comics version while keeping a lot of traits from the comics but obviously updating them for the movie too.

But I'm trying to convince someone that made a thread to poke fun at Bane in the first place, so meh.

[milost]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

You're crazy if you don't know that the bold can be the same for Joker as well.

I've seen "serious" impersonations of the Joker, but not ones that do it in a funny manner. Certainly not ones that mock it. I can't think of one time where any of his performance was made fun of all across the internet. If there were, it was someone impersonating the Joker poorly because they were crapping on Batman's voice (which is just as bad as Bane as far as other people's opinions are concerned).

Now, as far as memes go, there's that one with the interrogation scene between Batman and Joker where you plug in a different suggestion. Other than that though? Pretty non-existence.


People have been mocking Bane's voice, mask and character since day 1. Or do you think "sounds like Sean Connery" or "friend zoned" is a good thing?

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

And yah, I would still say TDKR Bane is much of an improvement than the comics version while keeping a lot of traits from the comics but obviously updating them for the movie too.

How is he in any way an improvement over Bane in the comics? I'm really curious why anyone would think that.


I was never a huge fan of Bane, but he's pretty great in some of his stories from the comics, especially when you see him as a child to escaping and becoming a man. What does TDKR Bane do or how does he act that makes him an improvement? I keep seeing this but have yet to see anyone back it up.


He didn't escape the pit. He wasn't the child. He wasn't the heir to the LoS. He didn't weaken Batman (he was already weak). It was Talia's plan, not his. Is it his lines? Blowing up a football stadium? Killing small, weak people by crushing them by sitting on them? Is that what makes him better?

[the last son]

Over time I'm not finding Ledger Joker to be so special. Maybe because as time passes by he put too much of his own spin on what I prefer for the joker. To me ledger was just a crazy person dressed as a clown instead of the joker.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by milost

I've seen "serious" impersonations of the Joker, but not ones that do it in a funny manner. Certainly not ones that mock it. I can't think of one time where any of his performance was made fun of all across the internet. If there were, it was someone impersonating the Joker poorly because they were crapping on Batman's voice (which is just as bad as Bane as far as other people's opinions are concerned).

Now, as far as memes go, there's that one with the interrogation scene between Batman and Joker where you plug in a different suggestion. Other than that though? Pretty non-existence.


People have been mocking Bane's voice, mask and character since day 1. Or do you think "sounds like Sean Connery" or "friend zoned" is a good thing?

How is he in any way an improvement over Bane in the comics? I'm really curious why anyone would think that.


I was never a huge fan of Bane, but he's pretty great in some of his stories from the comics, especially when you see him as a child to escaping and becoming a man. What does TDKR Bane do or how does he act that makes him an improvement? I keep seeing this but have yet to see anyone back it up.


He didn't escape the pit. He wasn't the child. He wasn't the heir to the LoS. He didn't weaken Batman (he was already weak). It was Talia's plan, not his. Is it his lines? Blowing up a football stadium? Killing small, weak people by crushing them by sitting on them? Is that what makes him better?

I just found it far more interesting. Tying it with the LoS which I also found to be necessary to bring that back to end Bruce Wayne's story and placing Bane into the mix while making Talia his real life Osito. Plus, he was a very brilliant villain who I didn't view as some lackey to Talia, but that's the thing...to people who did, of course they'd think TDKR's Bane was an awful version(and I didn't view it as just Talia's plan).

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Ditto. But as always it's been a pleasure.

And ditto

Milost, Bane's voice is just fun to imitate. That's not at all the same as making fun of him. Most people who imitate Bane's voice in a joking manner still respect him as a character. I love doing the Bane voice. Kevin Smith is another great example. He imitates it all the time for fun and says the dumbest things in it, but he said Bane was his favorite thing about the movie and it made him like a character that he never previously cared for in the comics.

Look, I know you don't like Bane in TDKR but it's a stretch to imply that just because people enjoy reveling in the cooky voice that he wasn't a very liked/loved villain overall. It was that weird faux-sophisticated/posh manner of speaking juxtaposed with his monstrous appearance and physical brutality that made him such an awesome and memorable villain.

[the last son]

Eh, he wasn't that memorable nor was the movie. Most people have forgotten about it in reality. I don't think the movie is aging well.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by the last son

Eh, he wasn't that memorable nor was the movie. Most people have forgotten about it in reality. I don't think the movie is aging well.

No Batman movie really ever gets forgotten. They're all on TV all the time. Soon eough TDKR will be a TNT regular as well.

The Dark Knight trilogy as a whole won't be forgotten any time soon, and like it or not TDKR is a part of it.

[the last son]

The general public has forgotten about it. Outside of Batman fans people don't really talk about this movie.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by the last son

The general public has forgotten about it. Outside of Batman fans people don't really talk about this movie.

That's true of most Batman movies. Doesn't mean they're "forgotten" forever. TDK was something of a phenomenon with its massive pop culture influence, similarly to Batman 89.

Talking has died down because the story is over and the general public has understandably moved on. Right now there's no new movie to look forward to. If the rumors about Nolan/Bale returning for WF/JL end up being true, it'll come right back into the mainstream consciousness.

Personally I think I'm fine with Bats taking a bit of a breather from the limelight. It's Supes' time to shine now.

[Gotham's Knight]

Originally Posted by the last son

Eh, he wasn't that memorable nor was the movie. Most people have forgotten about it in reality. I don't think the movie is aging well.

Not sure about where you live but where I live, people still talk about the movie and Bane often and favourably. Avengers and TASM, on the other hand...

EDIT: And Dredd but, unfortunately, that movie was barely noticed to begin with.

[the last son]

Really well I follow people who only talk comic movies and super hero related items and TDKR is never brought up.

[Gotham's Knight]

Originally Posted by the last son

Really well I follow people who only talk comic movies and super hero related items and TDKR is never brought up.

I hear about TDKR from a mix of comic book fans and general audience members and that group that still thinks that this is in continuity with the Burton/Schumacher movies. That last group though...we'll just forget about those people. At least they know Begins exists though, unlike a few people I've heard speak.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by the last son

Really well I follow people who only talk comic movies and super hero related items and TDKR is never brought up.

********. They don't talk about comic book movies if they're not going to talk about the best CB trilogy as of yet, a film that has a very cultural impact(TDK), a film that created the trend of reboots(BB), and a film that gave a hero a happy ending that we'll never ever see again(TDKR).

I think you're trying to make a point that I just do not believe. People who talk about CBMs and they don't even mention any film of TDK trilogy. Once again, ********.