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Old 03-18-2013, 03:30 PM   #276
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Why do you fear the opening is doomed? The last trailer seemed to get tons of interest.

I would love to see more of Faora though mainly because I'm just so excited to have a female villain in a Superhero movie! And a real villain. Not a villain/love interest.
I think the concern is that past Superman movies haven't had much in terms of "action" and that the trailer needs to show this to draw people in. I kinda agree. The last trailer was interesting but it needed more action to complement it.

I don't think the opening is doomed, but I do think it will take more than the Malick-y visuals of the previous trailers to draw in the general audience.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:30 PM   #277
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I didn't take offense to it, as a woman and self-described feminist. Fact is, most of these stories feature male protagonists. And the best way to get under their skin is to kill off their women.

You do see it used with female protagonists as well, although action movies that feature them are much rarer. Their lovers are killed off to create angst. So I don't think it's a "we hate women" thing as it is "most of these characters are men so it's the most dramatic way to create conflict" thing.
I agree with this post. I'm not opposed to killing Lois because it's inherently sexist so much as it'll be cliched once both Batman and Spider-Man have done it. Plus, more importantly, I want to see Clark and Lois get together at the end of the trilogy a la Bruce and Selina in TDKR.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:31 PM   #278
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I agree that the death of superman would be great to see on screen, but I don't really agree with te reasoning not to make a kingdom come movie. Just my opinion though.
That's fine. I can only speak for myself. I love Lois Lane. The minute she dies in a Superman story....I'm not interested in the movie anymore.

I don't want a Superman movie franchise based on a dark AU where she's dead. I want a Superman franchise where she's alive and kicking ass in some capacity.

So, for me personally, while I can see how some people might enjoy it as an animated movie, I think you go down a very dark road if you try to do it in your live action franchise. Because...she's dead. And she's not coming back. Your live action world is dark at this point. You are officially building your live action DCU around "a warning" as opposed to following a more hopeful route. And your Superman is now a very dark, broken person. And that's just not the Superman franchise I'm looking for with this new cast and new direction. Your mileage may vary.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:34 PM   #279
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They shouldn't kill Lois. Superman doesn't need that kind of angst.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:35 PM   #280
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I agree with this post. I'm not opposed to killing Lois because it's inherently sexist so much as it'll be cliched once both Batman and Spider-Man have done it. Plus, more importantly, I want to see Clark and Lois get together at the end of the trilogy a la Bruce and Selina in TDKR.
It's not inhereantly sexist when you do it once. But when it becomes the fallback guide for the character....then you run into problems. And I do think narratives have to be really careful the WAY they do it.

Killing Lois off in AU's in a genuine problem right now at DC Comics and, at this point, it has become a problem with gender. It wasn't the first time around but it's been done so much at this point that it's become a problem. And, as you said, it's lazy, cliched storytelling.

But, as I said above, I'm just not interested in a dark Superman franchise where Lois is dead and Clark is damaged. I want to see Lois alive and kicking ass in the Superman movies. They lose me as a viewer if they kill her.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:37 PM   #281
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I wouldn't call it sexist, but I do agree it is (usually) lazy writing.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:40 PM   #282
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Antje projects this kind of coldness. She's probably a nice person in real life, but there's this real "presence" with her. It would probably work really well for MOS.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:42 PM   #283
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They shouldn't kill Lois. Superman doesn't need that kind of angst.
You also miss out on exploring all the difficult issues that they faced when they were together.

Writing a committed couple is hard. It's harder than falling back on soap opera drama. But when done right....there are great stories to tell.

I always think about the conflict that Greg Rucka created in the comics when Lois went to cover the conflict overseas on a dangerous journalist mission in the Middle East. Superman knew he couldn't be seen in the region because his presence may impact the war and he was trying his best to stay out of it. Lois goes in there as the crusader and brave woman she is and Clark feels paralyzed...what can he do?

Lois winds up saving a wounded solider and as we all remember...she gets shot. Superman hears her and makes the choice to go in to thiis Middle Eastern conflict to get her knowing full well that he shouldn't be there. But he does it anyway.

There are so many great questions in that conflict. Where should Superman draw the line in terms of getting involved in a world conflict? How does he balance his personal feelings for his wife (because she was his wife at this point) with the duty that he feels to stay out of the conflict? I mean...that's "angst" in the sense of the word but it's GOOD angst. It's creative. It's not just lazy "kill off the wife" angst.

Death of Superman presents some great questions too and it provides a great situation where we see Lois struggling to mourn Superman publicly and privately while still keeping his identity a secret.

There are tons of great angst filled stories you can tell without resorting to that cliche. And i'm just saying....I would rather see one of THOSE made into a movie than see our live action franchise be built around Lois Lane being dead.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:43 PM   #284
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That's fine. I can only speak for myself. I love Lois Lane. The minute she dies in a Superman story....I'm not interested in the movie anymore.
Hey now. I mean, there's still Lana. Not that I prefer her over Lois (especially Amy Adams as Lois), but there have been many, many versions of how Superman's love life may end up in the future. Meaning that there's no official one. If Lois dies... it would be a bummer, but at least ot would be surprising, and it would make what follows hard to predict. That's always fun.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:44 PM   #285
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I wouldn't call it sexist, but I do agree it is (usually) lazy writing.
It is lazy, yes.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:50 PM   #286
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Hey now. I mean, there's still Lana. Not that I prefer her over Lois (especially Amy Adams as Lois), but there have been many, many versions of how Superman's love life may end up in the future. Meaning that there's no official one. If Lois dies... it would be a bummer, but at least ot would be surprising, and it would make what follows hard to predict. That's always fun.
First off, I wouldn't find it "surprising." Not in a movie world where we just lost Rachel Dawes and where we will most likely lose Gwen. I think it's predictable.

Second...yes there actually is an official canon of how Superman's love life ends up. There are several.

The Golden Age Superman (AKA Siegel and Shuster's Superman) was married to Lois Lane and they died together during the Crisis. Lois died first and Superman struggled to accept it. Then, Superman died in his cousin's arms finally understanding what his wife had been trying to tell him...that they would never really lose each other. They were seen reunited in the heavens together as a young couple again. So yes, the Golden Age Superman's canon did have an" official" end and it was with Lois.

The "ending" of the pre-crisis era was the story "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" by Alan Moore. That story was written as the "ending" "farewell" to the Silver Age/Bronze Age Superman before the John Bryne reboot. That story ended with Superman faking his own death and Lois and Clark going under the radar together. They get married and have a baby named Jonathan. The baby has powers. Superman is "retired."

The ending of the most modern era of comics can be found in Superman #714. Again, the canon is that "even death" can't separate Lois and Clark and that they will "find a way" to be together forever. Chris Roberson wrote the story. Paul Cornell wrote the other piece of it in Action Comics #904. We are told by those from the future that Lois and Clark don't allow "death" to separate them and that they will always find their way back to each other even if they are separated from time to time. That was the message before the new 52 hit.

DC ONe Million was given as the far off ending for the DCU before the reboot as well. In Morrison's story, Superman goes off-planet after Lois dies and waits for a very long time. Eventually, they are reunited again as her DNA is actually re-created in space.

There are some elseworld stories in which Clark winds up with Diana but in almost every single story he was married to Lois first and she was killed in some grisly capacity. These are usually dark AU's where something has gone terribly wrong and the entire DCU is very dark and damaged. In several of these stories (the recent Injustice comic appears to be one of them) Wonder Woman is portrayed as very vengeful and almost predatory in terms of moving in on Superman as a grieving widower. These stories are usually very, very dark and they don't change the reality that Lois was always his wife before this stuff happened.

At this point, a story in which Lois is killed off wouldn't "surprise" me because it's cliched. What would "surprise" me would be a movie that really took the time to tell their story right and treat Lois with respect. After Superman Returns...that would "surprise" me.

And Lois dying wouldn't be a "bummer" for me. It would be a dealbreaker.

(BTW there are comic scans on the web for all of those official canons I just described to you. )


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Old 03-18-2013, 03:57 PM   #287
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If Lois died when superman was young and within this (hopeful) trilogy, I wouldn't like it either. But her dying in a one off story where Superman wad older it wouldn't bother me at all. And it wasn't just Lois's death that drove superman into hiding, it was the fact that he wouldn't take revenge on the joker, which Magog did, and the people began to see superman differently. There's a lot more to it than just Lois dying.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:58 PM   #288
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They shouldn't kill Lois. Superman doesn't need that kind of angst.
But I want to see an angry time traveling Superman.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:59 PM   #289
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I think that would be a horrible idea for live action as it would require yet another superhero property within a small window to kill off a woman to drive the plot. And i'm not OK with that yet AGAIN.

Because we just got that in The Dark Knight with the killing of Rachel Dawes.

I think most people are aware that we are most likely going to lose Gwen Stacy for similar purposes before this new Spider-Man trilogy is over.

So that's already two huge superhero properties within the last few years who have had to rely on the tired trope of killing off the lover in order to create drama.

A live action movie based on Kingdom Come would require killing off Amy Adams' Lois Lane in a brutal, cliched way so that she was never coming back. It would create a dark AU for the brand new Superman franchise and make it virtually impossible to ever go back again. It would require your entire DC Universe in live action to age 20+_ years. I can understanding wanting it for a stand-alone animation feature but it's the wrong choice for live action franchise that has to CONTINUE for years to come in an entertainment genre where several love intersts have already been killed off in a short window.

Frankly, what I'd like to see Snyder tackle in years to come is the Death of Superman saga. It's still the best selling comic book of all time and it's crazy that some version of it has not been made into a movie yet despite the studio trying many years ago.

To me, the best scenario is ending the second Superman movie (the sequel to Man of Steel) with the Death of Superman and then leading into a Justice League movie. The other heroes come out of the woodwork because Superman is dead and unite. He "rises" from the dead in some capacity. To me...that's your movie. And you can continue from there with franchising. Kingdom Come was meant to be a "warning" tale. It's not a "how-to" guide for live action. Because once you do it...you can't ever go back. That's your dark, damaged world now.

Personally, I loved Kingdom Come for what it was, an "out of continuity", Elseworlds tale. I'd love to see an animated adaptation of it, although the idea of doing a mainstream superhero movie with an older cast does sound kind of awesome to me, and I would honestly prefer to see Kingdom Come to Dark Knight Returns adapted in a live action if I had to choose.

A few things:

Death of Superman is a terrible comic. Yes, Doomsday VS Superman is cool, the funeral is cool, and the 4 who came to take Superman's place were cool, so was the subplot with Hal becoming Parallax, etc. But there is no way they will do a faithful adaptation of it, and I'm not sure I'd even want them to. For as many good things in the story there are at least as many bad things, the underground monsters for one thing, the whole Luthor's son with raging long hair dating clone Supergirl who is really Lex Luthor all along thing is stupid, there is just so much 90s crap in there, it is a hard read for me today. It is a mess, it's not at all self contained, unlike Kingdom Come which is in its own, self contained little world (perfect for alternate media adaptation), even Dark Knight Returns is pretty much self contained.

Now I understand your feelings about seeing a pattern in superhero stories where the love interest is killed, but one, Kingdom Come was written waaaaaaay before TDK was even a thought. Two, everyone knows Gwen Stacy dies in the comic, and that's so he can be with MJ, who he is supposed to be with, arguably his "real" love interest (she is who he is supposed to be with, IMO). Gwen Stacy is about just slightly more than the Lana Lang equivalent for Spider-Man. Kingdom Come is set in the far, far future, and while I don't really like how Lois Lane went out, and believe that Superman SHOULD be with Lois Lane, not Wonder Woman, I was okay with it because it made sense in the context of the story (far, far future) and was what made Superman go into retirement.

I would like a JLA movie where all 7 unite. I want Superman in there at the beginning, I don't like the idea of Superman dying bringing the League together. I would rather them kill Lois before Superman because she is a supporting character, albeit the main supporting character of Superman's world. Rachel Dawes, I hated that character, and was happy to see her go in TDK. I would have rather they used one of Batman's love interests from the comics in the Nolan films to begin with, even if they did die at some point. Almost any would have been good. That is where I deduct points from the Nolan films, personally. I was just saying that I don't believe it is an intentional trend here or pattern with killing off the "love interests", maybe lazy writing on some parts, I think that's just how it worked out with a lot of them. Nobody was trying to copy someone else.

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Old 03-18-2013, 04:02 PM   #290
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Was watching this again.

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Old 03-18-2013, 04:04 PM   #291
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If Lois died when superman was young and within this (hopeful) trilogy, I wouldn't like it either. But her dying in a one off story where Superman wad older it wouldn't bother me at all. And it wasn't just Lois's death that drove superman into hiding, it was the fact that he wouldn't take revenge on the joker, which Magog did, and the people began to see superman differently. There's a lot more to it than just Lois dying.
Yes. But she is the catalyst. That's the point. If she's alive...he survives it. He has her there to provide the strength. SHe's not there so he can't handle it. If you've read the follow-up that shows you specifically the moment Lois dies you know that he tells her as she lays dying that he is going to go after the Joker and get him. She begs him not to. She says, "Don't change who you are. Don't lose Clark."

Therefore, when Superman makes the choice he does he is also defying her last dying wish. Her dying wish was that he "not change" who he was and "not lose Clark." He does both of those things.

I think the point though is that this kind of story is OK if you are going to make an animated movie based on a darker AU.

But this isn't a good blueprint for a mainstream Superman franchise for a new generation in LIVE ACTION as it requires you killing off Lois within the trilogy and then dealing with a Superman who is very dark and depressed. It's a very dark story that never really has a "happy" ending. Yes, Superman finds some peace at the end of Kingdom Come with Diana but the love of his life is still murdered. As you said, fine for a one-off story but not the choice for a live action franchise.

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Old 03-18-2013, 04:04 PM   #292
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Jamal Igle rules. They should've kept him on Supergirl! Those were some great comics.

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Old 03-18-2013, 04:05 PM   #293
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You know, I honestly wouldn't mind it if they were able to release two different trailers later on for MOS, where they highlight on the Krytponian and Human characters within MOS respectively. It'd give us a good view on how they contrast each other and yet intertwine as well.

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Old 03-18-2013, 04:05 PM   #294
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But I want to see an angry time traveling Superman.
Kinda like this?


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Old 03-18-2013, 04:12 PM   #295
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First off, I wouldn't find it "surprising." Not in a movie world where we just lost Rachel Dawes and where we will most likely lose Gwen. I think it's predictable.

Second...yes there actually is an official canon of how Superman's love life ends up. There are several.

The Golden Age Superman (AKA Siegel and Shuster's Superman) was married to Lois Lane and they died together during the Crisis. Lois died first and Superman struggled to accept it. Then, Superman died in his cousin's arms finally understanding what his wife had been trying to tell him...that they would never really lose each other. They were seen reunited in the heavens together as a young couple again. So yes, the Golden Age Superman's canon did have an" official" end and it was with Lois.

The "ending" of the pre-crisis era was the story "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" by Alan Moore. That story was written as the "ending" "farewell" to the Silver Age/Bronze Age Superman before the John Bryne reboot. That story ended with Superman faking his own death and Lois and Clark going under the radar together. They get married and have a baby named Jonathan. The baby has powers. Superman is "retired."

The ending of the most modern era of comics can be found in Superman #714. Again, the canon is that "even death" can't separate Lois and Clark and that they will "find a way" to be together forever. Chris Roberson wrote the story. Paul Cornell wrote the other piece of it in Action Comics #904. We are told by those from the future that Lois and Clark don't allow "death" to separate them and that they will always find their way back to each other even if they are separated from time to time. That was the message before the new 52 hit.

DC ONe Million was given as the far off ending for the DCU before the reboot as well. In Morrison's story, Superman goes off-planet after Lois dies and waits for a very long time. Eventually, they are reunited again as her DNA is actually re-created in space.

There are some elseworld stories in which Clark winds up with Diana but in almost every single story he was married to Lois first and she was killed in some grisly capacity. These are usually dark AU's where something has gone terribly wrong and the entire DCU is very dark and damaged. In several of these stories (the recent Injustice comic appears to be one of them) Wonder Woman is portrayed as very vengeful and almost predatory in terms of moving in on Superman as a grieving widower. These stories are usually very, very dark and they don't change the reality that Lois was always his wife before this stuff happened.

At this point, a story in which Lois is killed off wouldn't "surprise" me because it's cliched. What would "surprise" me would be a movie that really took the time to tell their story right and treat Lois with respect. After Superman Returns...that would "surprise" me.

And Lois dying wouldn't be a "bummer" for me. It would be a dealbreaker.

(BTW there are comic scans on the web for all of those official canons I just described to you. )
Sure, but the fact that there have been several was kind of my point. There’s plenty of room to play with. It’s not a singular, definitive ending like, say, Lord of the Rings. I think a huge asset of the Nolan Batman movies was that attitude – don’t go for the conventional. Break the rules a bit. People think Two Face should stay alive? Eff that, let’s kill him at the end of TDK, so that the thematic resonance of the movie gets multiplied tenfold. Stuff like that. Bend the rules in your favor, so that the story you’re telling has such a powerful effect that people have no remedy but to embrace it. You thought the Joker HAD to have his laughter gas? Well, if you loved the Heath Ledger Joker, not anymore.


You thought Lois Lane HAD to end up with Superman? If you tell an amazing story that ends with Lois dying… who knows if the dramatic effect you’re achieving doesn’t outweigh all the comics canon in the world?


Again, not that I’d want to. But if they did it well, it wouldn’t be a dealbreaker to me.

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Old 03-18-2013, 04:13 PM   #296
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Kinda like this?


That was a great moment in Superman: the movie. That whole last five min always brings a tear to my eye. Lol. I do love it though seriously.

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Old 03-18-2013, 04:16 PM   #297
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...looking forward to some attitude adjusting...


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Old 03-18-2013, 04:18 PM   #298
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A few things:

Death of Superman is a terrible comic. Yes, Doomsday VS Superman is cool, the funeral is cool, and the 4 who came to take Superman's place were cool, so was the subplot with Hal becoming Parallax, etc. But there is no way they will do a faithful adaptation of it, and I'm not sure I'd even want them to. For as many good things in the story there are at least as many bad things, the underground monsters for one thing, the whole Luthor's son with raging long hair dating clone Supergirl who is really Lex Luthor all along thing is stupid, there is just so much 90s crap in there, it is a hard read for me today. It is a mess, it's not at all self contained, unlike Kingdom Come which is in its own, self contained little world (perfect for alternate media adaptation), even Dark Knight Returns is pretty much self contained.
I don't think it's a terrible comic. I agree there is a ton of 90's era stuff in there but at it's root there is a beautiful story there about Clark, Lois and Jonathan and Martha Kent. They are the core of the story. There is also a beautiful potential message about the way in which the world has come to take Superman for granted---the way we take so many things for granted in our lives. Then he's gone and they don't know where to look. To me, this is a much more powerful way to tell this story than the failed attempt in Superman Returns.

World without a Superman is a powerful story. Watching Lois and Jonathan and Martha grieve has powerful potential.

I'm not saying it's a perfect book. Of course it's not. It's dated. But it also has some core central ideas that work.

Most importantly, the outcome of the story doesn't set the entire DCU on a dark path for years to come. It doesn't interupt other franchises. It doesn't prevent other franchises. It upholds, eventually, the core of Superman and the messageof hope.

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Now I understand your feelings about seeing a pattern in superhero stories where the love interest is killed, but one, Kingdom Come was written waaaaaaay before TDK was even a thought.
Of course. But it was written after a million other stories where Lois gets brutally killed off. And a million other stories have been written since that point. Unfortunately, these things are connected now.

Sure, DarK Knight came after the fact. It doesn't change the fact that that's a story that has been done now.

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Two, everyone knows Gwen Stacy dies in the comic, and that's so he can be with MJ, who he is supposed to be with, arguably his "real" love interest (she is who he is supposed to be with, IMO). Gwen Stacy is about just slightly more than the Lana Lang equivalent for Spider-Man.
No, I'd argue that Gwen is alot more important than Lana Lang. Alot more important. Yes, I prefer MJ and Peter. But I think that it's important and imperative for Peter to love Gwen first and I also think the experience of losing Gwen is part of what brings MJ and Peter together since MJ loved Gwen too. Gwen has a vital role in the Spider-Man franchise. She's paramount to Peter in that regard.

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Kingdom Come is set in the far, far future, and while I don't really like how Lois Lane went out, and believe that Superman SHOULD be with Lois Lane, not Wonder Woman, I was okay with it because it made sense in the context of the story (far, far future) and was what made Superman go into retirement.
Yes, it's set far in the future in a DARK AU. It was not set in the main universe. DC made sure to establish that. Yes, it made sense in the context of that dark story. But I don't think that dark AU which was written to be a dark AU should be presented as the future of the DCU in live cinema.

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I would like a JLA movie where all 7 unite. I want Superman in there at the beginning, I don't like the idea of Superman dying bringing the League together. I would rather them kill Lois before Superman because she is a supporting character, albeit the main supporting character of Superman's world.
Except of course that Superman doesn't really die. He comes back. When Lois is dead....she's dead. Never coming back. Kind of a big difference there. I totally understand that you wouldn't like for a JLA movie. No problem there. I respect your opinion.

Also, Lois Lane is arguably the supporting protagonist of the Superman mythos. She's not the protagonist but she's a bit more than the supporting player and has been treated as the co-star at various times throughout history.

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Rachel Dawes, I hated that character, and was happy to see her go in TDK. I would have rather they used one of Batman's love interests from the comics in the Nolan films to begin with, even if they did die at some point. Almost any would have been good. That is where I deduct points from the Nolan films, personally. I was just saying that I don't believe it is an intentional trend here or pattern with killing off the "love interests", maybe lazy writing on some parts, I think that's just how it worked out with a lot of them. Nobody was trying to copy someone else.
Oh see, I do disagree there. I do think there has been copying involved because of the lazy writing. Part of the reason Lois Lane kept getting killed in AU Superman stories was because people saw the success of Kingdom Come and completely misunderstood that Mark Waid didn't mean the book to be a how-to guide but meant it as a warning.

Rachel Dawes was created and treated as a disposable character. I understand alot of people didn't like her. I used to be of that opinion. But i've been trying to look closer at her lately and find some value and worth there that I may have missed before. I'd like to appreciate her.

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Old 03-18-2013, 04:23 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Audrey View Post
Yes. But she is the catalyst. That's the point. If she's alive...he survives it. He has her there to provide the strength. SHe's not there so he can't handle it. If you've read the follow-up that shows you specifically the moment Lois dies you know that he tells her as she lays dying that he is going to go after the Joker and get him. She begs him not to. She says, "Don't change who you are. Don't lose Clark."

Therefore, when Superman makes the choice he does he is also defying her last dying wish. Her dying wish was that he "not change" who he was and "not lose Clark." He does both of those things.
I hardly think she was talking about "Clark" as in the reporter with glasses, I think she meant who he was inside, Clark from Smallville. Daily Planet Clark is a facade, Kal El is somewhat detatched and "alien", not who he really is, he is really just Clark Kent from Smallville with superpowers. She was saying don't lose that.

I don't like this idea that he "needs" her there for emotional support or whatever. Any man being needy and/or codependent is a very bad thing, that especially goes for Superman. He loves her, no doubt. But I wouldn't say he is codependent nor is Lois the "moral barometer" for him, as Kingdom Come even showed. He did not kill, even when he had personal, "selfish" reasons to do so, reasons which anyone else would have snapped and just went and did it. This is what makes the character.


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I think the point though is that this kind of story is OK if you are going to make an animated movie based on a darker AU.

But this isn't a good blueprint for a mainstream Superman franchise for a new generation in LIVE ACTION as it requires you killing off Lois within the trilogy and then dealing with a Superman who is very dark and depressed. It's a very dark story that never really has a "happy" ending. Yes, Superman finds some peace at the end of Kingdom Come with Diana but the love of his life is still murdered. As you said, fine for a one-off story but not the choice for a live action franchise.
I'm okay with it only if it is many, many years down the line. Not in a new franchise with young stars that is supposed to be building. They say superheroes are the new "western", well they could do a Kingdom Come or DKR sometime when they feel ideas are maybe running thin or way way down the line to shake things up; like John Wayne in "The Cowboys" or even Rooster Cogburn.

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Old 03-18-2013, 04:25 PM   #300
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There is also tremendous wait in killing Lois Lane because she, unlike Rachael who was made up for the Nolan films, and Gwen Stacy who is NOT in every version of Spider-Man, Lois has ALWAYS been there. It is the type of thing that would be a surprise way way down the line somewhat, IMO. Not that I'd prefer it but there is much more weight to her death than those other characters is what I am saying.

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