The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > Superman > Man of Steel

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-18-2013, 04:26 PM   #301
Zorex
No T, No Shade
 
Zorex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,915
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audrey View Post
Except that "Brave New Metropolis" actually did it the right way.

Notice that the entire episode is through Lois's point of view and perspective. She's not just a plot device. She has agency. She has a voice. We HEAR her express how SHE feels. We see her confront Superman and share her belief system. Her role as a voice for justice mattered to the story. She didn't simply exist to cause him pain. That was the RIGHt way to do it.

Smallville's episode "Pandora" was very similar to "Brave New Metropolis" in that way. We see it through Lois's eyes. We see what happened to Clark when he thought she was dead. He wasn't doing so great. But Lois has perspective in the story and she was part of the solution in the story. Again, she didn't just exist in the story to be a dead body.

Both of those stories emphasize how vital Lois is to Superman but Lois has actual perspective and agency in the narrative. She's not just a dead body and Superman is crying over . Do you see the difference?
Good points, and a great estimation of what makes "Brave New Metropolis" a great story, besides the cool what-if/Twilight Zone nature of the episode. (I've seen but am not as familiar with "Pandora" so I won't comment on that.)

__________________
Go Forward.
Remember Where You Come From
Zorex is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:27 PM   #302
Travesty
TEOL
 
Travesty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Bane's lair, of cursssshh!
Posts: 15,522
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Smith View Post
That was a great moment in Superman: the movie. That whole last five min always brings a tear to my eye. Lol. I do love it though seriously.
Dat scream!

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

__________________
*Of curssssshhhh Kane would do my avy.
Travesty is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:29 PM   #303
Audrey
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 293
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemeres View Post
Sure, but the fact that there have been several was kind of my point. There’s plenty of room to play with. It’s not a singular, definitive ending like, say, Lord of the Rings. I think a huge asset of the Nolan Batman movies was that attitude – don’t go for the conventional. Break the rules a bit. People think Two Face should stay alive? Eff that, let’s kill him at the end of TDK, so that the thematic resonance of the movie gets multiplied tenfold. Stuff like that. Bend the rules in your favor, so that the story you’re telling has such a powerful effect that people have no remedy but to embrace it. You thought the Joker HAD to have his laughter gas? Well, if you loved the Heath Ledger Joker, not anymore.


You thought Lois Lane HAD to end up with Superman? If you tell an amazing story that ends with Lois dying… who knows if the dramatic effect you’re achieving doesn’t outweigh all the comics canon in the world?


Again, not that I’d want to. But if they did it well, it wouldn’t be a dealbreaker to me.
Killing off Harvey Dent and not giving the Joker is laughter gas is not really comparable to killing off a feminist icon (which is how Lois is viewed in many circles) and the supporting protagonist of the Superman mythos.

Yes, Nolan "broke the rules" with a few things but he also strayed closer to canon than people give him credit for.

The ending of the Dark Knight Rises with Bruce ending up with Selina is closely linked to the Golden Age Batman canon where Bruce and Selina do finally choose to be together and have a daughter. It was also very closely borrowed from the Superman story "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow."

Notice that Nolan didn't kill off Alfred. He didn't kill off the concept of Robin. He created a new female character when he had to kill someone off. He didn't kill off Catwoman.

This is the problem....if you tell an "amazing" story where Lois dies....you aren't breaking the rules. Not the way Nolan did. You are taking a vital component of the canon and removing it.

At this point, I've waited a long time to see a MOVIE actually allow Lois and Clark to have a committed relationship. Richard Donner had a plan to bring them back together in his movies but he never got to fulfill it because he was taken off the franchise. Superman Returns ended tragically and sad. I've waited a long time to finally see a movie catch up on the last 30 years of comics and show me a Lois and Clark who can actually be together as a team.

Killing Lois fundamentally changes your Superman narrative going forward in a way in which you can't repair or go back. Even if he finds some kind of peace at the end, you have written a tragic story at that point. And I'm tired of tragic Superman stories.

Audrey is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:29 PM   #304
IamtheBatman
Side-Kick
 
IamtheBatman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Beneath Wayne Manor
Posts: 3,026
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

What do you make of David Goyer's MOS secrecy quote in the film magazine article?

IamtheBatman is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:30 PM   #305
Kane52630
Terminated Glitch User
 
Kane52630's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Skynet
Posts: 66,517
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travesty View Post
Dat scream!

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
dat pre-transfer copy.

__________________
Isolated System
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
Kane52630 is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:33 PM   #306
ConnorKon-El
Amateur Film Nerd
 
ConnorKon-El's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,436
Lightbulb Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamtheBatman View Post
What do you make of David Goyer's MOS secrecy quote in the film magazine article?
I appreciate you trying to get things back on topic.

Um, being secretive is fine and dandy but you can't be too secretive. The third trailer needs to be balls to the wall crazy and be that final element that makes the indecisive people go to the film. WB needs to let audiences know this will be a superman film with action.

ConnorKon-El is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:34 PM   #307
Audrey
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 293
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Smith View Post
There is also tremendous wait in killing Lois Lane because she, unlike Rachael who was made up for the Nolan films, and Gwen Stacy who is NOT in every version of Spider-Man, Lois has ALWAYS been there. It is the type of thing that would be a surprise way way down the line somewhat, IMO. Not that I'd prefer it but there is much more weight to her death than those other characters is what I am saying.
Yes, she's one of the most important women in comics.

Does it not strike you as a problem that instead of thinking about how much weight she can have alive---inspiring and serving as a positive example of a mortal woman with a job----that you are talking about how much "weight" she has dead?

When people talk about women in refrigerators...this is what they are talking about.

Of course there is weight to her death. But you know what might have MORe weight in a story? Her being alive.

Audrey is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:38 PM   #308
IamtheBatman
Side-Kick
 
IamtheBatman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Beneath Wayne Manor
Posts: 3,026
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnorKon-El View Post
I appreciate you trying to get things back on topic.

Um, being secretive is fine and dandy but you can't be too secretive. The third trailer needs to be balls to the wall crazy and be that final element that makes the indecisive people go to the film. WB needs to let audiences know this will be a superman film with action.
I am waiting to see if Bale is at the end of the film?

IamtheBatman is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:42 PM   #309
Audrey
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 293
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
I don't like this idea that he "needs" her there for emotional support or whatever. Any man being needy and/or codependent is a very bad thing, that especially goes for Superman. He loves her, no doubt. But I wouldn't say he is codependent nor is Lois the "moral barometer" for him, as Kingdom Come even showed. He did not kill, even when he had personal, "selfish" reasons to do so, reasons which anyone else would have snapped and just went and did it. This is what makes the character.

Depending on your spouse---whether you are a man or a woman is not a bad thing...it's part of being married. It's part of your vows. You vow to be there for that person no matter what even if things are horrible. It doesn't mean you aren't still your own person. Of course Superman needs emotional support. He's not a god. He feels human emotions just like the rest of us. He has low moments just like the rest of us. That's kind of the point. It's what ties him to us and makes him one of us despite his great power. If he didnt need his emotions then what would be the drama with the character?

And no, Lois is not his 'moral barometer." I don't think anyone said she was. But she is a strong human tie and link. She's a link to connecting with humanity. Superman lost that connection to humanity in Kingdom Come. He disconnected and that proved to be a very bad thing. No, he didn't kill. But he did give up.

(Also, just an FYI, in the recent Injustice Gods Among Us comic that is linnked to the new video game Superman did kill the Joker after he killed Lois and their unborn child. So his moral code is apparently not unshakeable now. Unfortunately.)


Last edited by Audrey; 03-18-2013 at 04:49 PM.
Audrey is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:43 PM   #310
Audrey
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 293
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamtheBatman View Post
What do you make of David Goyer's MOS secrecy quote in the film magazine article?
I think the things that they think are going to be big "secrets" are probably things that are going to be well known to anyone who has followed Superman for the last 25 years.

I think Goyer and Snyder have talked about this movie as if the only Superman property that ever existed was the Richard Donner film. And I understand that is their approach since this is film. But I think many of the "changes" to Superman they have talked about (focusing more on the man, the humanity etc.) are things that aren't going to be that shocking or secretive to anyone who has watched Superman on TV or read comics in the last 25 years.

For example,I think that Snyder and Co. really think that Lois finding out Clark's secret early on (which I do think is going to happen) is going to be groundbreaking. And I guess for movies it is. But for anyone who reads comics and who watched Superman TV shows in the last 20 years...it's not new. But I think that this is part of the reason why, for example, Goyer and Co. have been very coy about the Lois and Clark element. Because, to them, Lois learning who Superman is very early on is going to be a "shock" to the movie audience who come in expecting the Donnerverse triangle.

I just have felt from the start that the marketing for the "secrets" in this movie depends alot on assuming that people have watched no Superman properties since the 1978 franchise. Which might totally be true for some people! But I think for those that it's not true for....the secrets won't be that big of secrets when they are revealed.

Does that make sense?


Last edited by Audrey; 03-18-2013 at 04:51 PM.
Audrey is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:10 PM   #311
Zorex
No T, No Shade
 
Zorex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,915
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamtheBatman View Post
What do you make of David Goyer's MOS secrecy quote in the film magazine article?
I don't think there's much to read into there.


...Besides the decently obvious "our film has way more awesome **** in it that no one, fans or otherwise, are anticipating."

__________________
Go Forward.
Remember Where You Come From
Zorex is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:10 PM   #312
hopefuldreamer
Bangarang!
 
hopefuldreamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South West, UK
Posts: 11,158
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Some really interesting debates to read in these last few pages

__________________
I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
hopefuldreamer is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:12 PM   #313
Kevin Smith
Banned User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Central City
Posts: 6,176
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audrey View Post
I don't think it's a terrible comic. I agree there is a ton of 90's era stuff in there but at it's root there is a beautiful story there about Clark, Lois and Jonathan and Martha Kent. They are the core of the story. There is also a beautiful potential message about the way in which the world has come to take Superman for granted---the way we take so many things for granted in our lives. Then he's gone and they don't know where to look. To me, this is a much more powerful way to tell this story than the failed attempt in Superman Returns.
Which is a story I don't think even needs to be told in the first place. Even if you just want to go by today's audiences, they've already seen that even with stuff like Megamind (great movie). Death of Superman and that story you would like told treats Superman like he is a relic, in an almost religious caricature way. That is the last thing that should ever be done with Superman - they need to go the opposite way and flesh out his personality - what does he like? What doesn't he like? Make him identifiable, yet at the ame time keep him as that "icon" or "figure". We don't need stories that show how "outdated" Superman is, they need to dispel that notion completely. The whole Superman book went down after Byrne left, IMO. Byrne wrote an awesome Superman with awesome stories, second only to Birthright, IMO. I love the issue with Luthor and the boat early on where Superman picks it up. Great stuff. The chemistry/relationship between Clark and Superman was great.

Quote:
World without a Superman is a powerful story. Watching Lois and Jonathan and Martha grieve has powerful potential.

I'm not saying it's a perfect book. Of course it's not. It's dated. But it also has some core central ideas that work.
The only reason why anyone even cares about that book is because of the fight with Doomsday. The biggest positive I think that came out of that book was the introducton of Doomsday to the DCU. Now they have another cool toy in the sandbox. I can leave the rest.

Quote:
Most importantly, the outcome of the story doesn't set the entire DCU on a dark path for years to come. It doesn't interupt other franchises. It doesn't prevent other franchises. It upholds, eventually, the core of Superman and the messageof hope.
No, it does not uphold at all. I can name ten Superman stories I would recommend before ever telling someone to pick up Death of Superman. In fact, that one would be at the very bottom of the pile for me if I am introducing someone to the character. Waid and Mark Millar's Superman animated series comic would be up there for sure (great stuff, everyone should check it out if they haven't, beautiful art and stories), but not DOS. And it DID interrupt other franchises, namely GREEN LANTERN. Mongul destroyed Coast City in it, Hal became Darth Lantern and they screwed the Green Lantern mythos up for years to come. Now granted Kyle Rayner was cool and had some good stories, but the greatest things about Green Lantern that made the character/mythos were gone! Another reason why I am not a fan of that book.


Quote:
Of course. But it was written after a million other stories where Lois gets brutally killed off. And a million other stories have been written since that point. Unfortunately, these things are connected now.

Sure, DarK Knight came after the fact. It doesn't change the fact that that's a story that has been done now.
There is no correlation between the Batman and Superman stories in that respect. TDK didn't go "hey, they've killed Lois and Gwen Stacy a dozen times, let's do that! That will work!", and likewise if they did a Kingdom Come adaptation they would not be doing it because of TDK. That's an essential part of that story, and is certainly no more cliche than any other aspect of each respective character's universe - characters that all have trickled down from Superman and were created as a response to Superman in the first place. Lois' death in Kingdom Come has a much greater impact than Rachel's in TDK, IMO.

Quote:
No, I'd argue that Gwen is alot more important than Lana Lang. Alot more important. Yes, I prefer MJ and Peter. But I think that it's important and imperative for Peter to love Gwen first and I also think the experience of losing Gwen is part of what brings MJ and Peter together since MJ loved Gwen too. Gwen has a vital role in the Spider-Man franchise. She's paramount to Peter in that regard.
Going to have to just disagree here, I think she is a little more important than Lana Lang. Only reason for that is because she was there from the beginning, there was Clark and Lois before we found out about Lana and Clark from years before. However, I can take or leave Gwen. Yes, I love the old Ditko Spider-Man comics, but I also loved the first two Sam Raimi movies, and they worked just fine without Gwen Stacy, even if MJ was somewhat of a mishmash of the two in the first film.


Quote:
Yes, it's set far in the future in a DARK AU. It was not set in the main universe. DC made sure to establish that. Yes, it made sense in the context of that dark story. But I don't think that dark AU which was written to be a dark AU should be presented as the future of the DCU in live cinema.
Not necessarily, and if it is an alternate FILM universe, which is how they should eventually just do them - just tell cool stories without regard to past films, kinda like the James Bond movies did - then I don't see what the problem is. I'm not calling for it to be made anytime soon or even in the next 15 years. I'm just saying it is a great idea to do someday down the line, and you are saying "No! Never!". I don't get that.


Quote:
Except of course that Superman doesn't really die. He comes back. When Lois is dead....she's dead. Never coming back. Kind of a big difference there. I totally understand that you wouldn't like for a JLA movie. No problem there. I respect your opinion.
Well that is okay....because the stories are about SUPERMAN. And we wouldn't expect otherwise. I'm not calling for any cast member to be killed, but you can bet I will say they can all go before Superman. I mean...he's the whole purpose they even exist. They can't REALLY kill him. Everyone else is disposable in comparison. I'm not a big fan of these "character deaths" anyway, especially the BIG, MAIN ones. If anything is an excuse for lazy writing, it is that, because you know it's just a big fake out and they will be back in some form. But it is entertaining enough I suppose, when you do them right, sometimes, which is the point at the end of the day. But threatening to take away the things we love VS actually taking them away are two different things. I would never want any main character to stay dead which is why I don't like that they even toy with those ideas in the first place because it is just a big marketing ploy but I definitely don't want to not have those characters. It's a lose/lose for me, these "death of ____" stories. They get a big roll of the eyes from me.

Quote:
Also, Lois Lane is arguably the supporting protagonist of the Superman mythos. She's not the protagonist but she's a bit more than the supporting player and has been treated as the co-star at various times throughout history.
Supporting...protagonist? Did you make that up? In a story like Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, etc (sans JLA since they are all stars there or even Batman & Robin to an extent), there is only one protagonist. Everyone else is a supporting character, that includes Lois Lane. She is the strongest, without question, so strong she even has her own totle - "love interest" or "girlfriend". Jimmy Olsen has also been treated as more than just a "supporting character" and "co-star" throughout comics as well:





...but even when they have been "costars", they have always been introduced through Superman. "Superman's pal", "Superman's girlfriend", they only exist because of Superman and their relationships with him are always the focal point of their stories. Otherwise, they serve no purpose.

The same could be said for Steve Trevor from the Wonder Woman comics, so it is not a matter of it being a "sexist" thing or having something against women or not.

Quote:
Oh see, I do disagree there. I do think there has been copying involved because of the lazy writing. Part of the reason Lois Lane kept getting killed in AU Superman stories was because people saw the success of Kingdom Come and completely misunderstood that Mark Waid didn't mean the book to be a how-to guide but meant it as a warning.
I don't think it was because they thought "hey, Lois' death = cash!" but if anything rather saw it as a new thought in their story stew. Nobody had really done it before. But that's in regard to Lois Lane exclusively. I highly, HIGHLY doubt that the writers of the Batman and Spider-Man films are looking at Lois' death and Kingdom Come plot devices for elements in their stories or even pulling from a stable of "cliches" to make their movie work. I think they're just doing what they see is best for and see as the natural development of their characters.

Quote:
Rachel Dawes was created and treated as a disposable character. I understand alot of people didn't like her. I used to be of that opinion. But i've been trying to look closer at her lately and find some value and worth there that I may have missed before. I'd like to appreciate her.
She still sucks. Give me Vicki Vale or Julie Madison any day. Hell, even the Phantasm chick, I wouldn't object to them using Andrea in a movie - in fact, I would love it! I thought it was awesome when Bruce got it on with Talia, which was crazy because she is psychotic - clearly, and then ended up with Catwoman at the end of TDKR. Batman only sleeps with crazy chicks in the Nolan universe lol. The "normal" chick didn't want him, it took a crazy chick to drag him down because only a crazy chick would actually be crazy enough to make a move. Haha. But the Rachel Dawes character was so whiney and a drag every time she was on screen. Nothing Bruce ever did was good enough. She should get an apartment with Dunst's Mary Jane where they can both date guys they know through work while messing with the guys that love them's heads. I hope she never shows up in a comic book.

Kevin Smith is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:14 PM   #314
ThePhantasm
The Shadow Knows
 
ThePhantasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 10,551
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Smith View Post
Hell, even the Phantasm chick, I wouldn't object to them using Andrea in a movie - in fact, I would love it!

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesConceptz View Post
Im done. Im leaving this website. I promise i will not be spiderman or attempt to be. I have a ral careerr to fulfill. Please don NOT tell anyone about this. I would appreciate if you all kept this a secret.
ThePhantasm is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:20 PM   #315
Mysteryman
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 5,243
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I just assumed by "Secrets" they meant plot points we didnt know.
I don't think there are any earth shattering secrets in the story.

Mysteryman is online now  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:25 PM   #316
hopefuldreamer
Bangarang!
 
hopefuldreamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: South West, UK
Posts: 11,158
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Yeah, I think he's just pumped to see how we react to some of the fights and actions scenes and stuff.

I mean, we already KNOW there is so much we don't know... cause we barely know anything

I'm excited to see what the plot will be on Krypton. I'm excited to see what happens with the tornado. With the oil rig. With the train station scene. With anything going on in Metropolis. With Superman in handcuffs. With Superman and Lois apparently getting on board Zod's ship after that bit with the army out in the desert... etc etc.

He's probably just sitting there going 'Oh you wait until they see what we actually filmed at the train station... it's gonna blow their minds!'

__________________
I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
hopefuldreamer is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:26 PM   #317
DarkKnight FTW
Lantern Honor Guard
 
DarkKnight FTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Right Behind You
Posts: 816
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

@Audrey

This film hasn't been marketed with "Secrets", That was Amazing Spider-man. All they've said was that they're approaching it as if no other Superman movie was done. Sure, they're trying to keep as much of the plot under wraps. But anybody who knows anything about his origin can give you the template. The part that I think they're saying is different is the way the world responds to his existence. But even this has been covered some in the comics. The GA is their target because that's who's going to make it successful, not the passionate Superman fan who, as you put it, will probably be more familiar with this take. But as far as being marketed for its secrets, I haven't seen that.

__________________
"Your training is nothing! Will is everything...the will to act!"

CBM: BatLantern28
Twitter: Illusive_Man_1
XBL: DarkKnight FTW
DarkKnight FTW is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:28 PM   #318
Kevin Smith
Banned User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Central City
Posts: 6,176
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audrey View Post
Depending on your spouse---whether you are a man or a woman is not a bad thing...it's part of being married. It's part of your vows. You vow to be there for that person no matter what even if things are horrible. It doesn't mean you aren't still your own person.
Of course you be there for them and they you. That's how it should be. That's how it needs to be. But the second a guy becomes codependent and has to screen things through his woman and stops doing his own thing is the moment he loses her because he stops leading. Words of experience, that is how it always goes. I don't ever want to see that with Superman. Being there for Lois and being codependent with her are two entirely different things. Superman was always there for her.

Quote:
And no, Lois is not his 'moral barometer." I don't think anyone said she was. But she is a strong human tie and link. She's a link to connecting with humanity. Superman lost that connection to humanity in Kingdom Come. He disconnected and that proved to be a very bad thing. No, he didn't kill. But he did give up.
She is not his only link to the world through which he "learned" about humanity. That's ********. His parents, the Kents, did that and supplied that for him more than anyone. They instilled all of that in him and it's something that is ever present in him regardless and somewhat inherent - Superman, in his heart "believes" he is human, and maintains this unconsciously whether the Kents are still alive or not. He experiences love through her. Superman never gave up any of his morals or any of his ideas, he simply said if this is how humanity is going to be, then I'm not going to be around to hold their hand anymore, and checked out. He had a crisis of conscience in this case, I don't see anything Superman did as out of character in Kingdom Come.


Quote:
(Also, just an FYI, in the recent Injustice Gods Among Us comic that is linnked to the new video game Superman did kill the Joker after he killed Lois and their unborn child. So his moral code is apparently not unshakeable now. Unfortunately.)
Guess I will have to just forgive him there. He's still the same guy to me. You know what is funny is that they always expect these characters to uphold and act the same hunky dory way they did back in the fifties, yet nowadays you can have villains do things like kill a woman and her unborn child, kill children, decapitate people, etc, things that the villains were NEVER allowed to do in the fifties, yet it is only the heroes who are supposed to stay the same? I don't think that it tarnishes Superman for him to have done something in retaliation to that in that instance, frankly. Look at how the heroes were back in the 30s/40s in their purest, most distilled form, before the Comics Code Authority came out, where their villains were more ruthless and cutthroat (and closer to how people are in the real world, unfortunately) and look at how they dealt with it. Batman carried a gun. They let bad people die sometimes, but they were always unrepentant evil people who we always knew for sure were going to do more evil things and that was the only way to put an end to it. I don't believe the Superman and Batman of that era were any more or less of a good guy than their incarnations today or from the fifties in their own contexts. That may seem controversial to some, but that is just my opinion on it. You can't reinvent the game and use the same pieces from the old game. Everything is transformed or nothing is.

No, I'm not saying the good guys should just go all out. You just have to do that stuff with these character proportionately.


Last edited by Kevin Smith; 03-18-2013 at 05:34 PM.
Kevin Smith is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:33 PM   #319
Audrey
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 293
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
No, it does not uphold at all. I can name ten Superman stories I would recommend before ever telling someone to pick up Death of Superman. In fact, that one would be at the very bottom of the pile for me if I am introducing someone to the character.
Ok, well that's your opinion. I have mine. I don't think it's the greatest story ever. I wouldn't even rank it in the top 5. But i have great respect for Dan Jurgens and the team that was on the book at the time and I appreciate the story. It's ok if your mileage varies. I think the story has alot of problems but also has some value. We don't have to agree.


Quote:
Supporting...protagonist? Did you make that up?
Umm..no. It's a term of literature. I would love to take credit for it but I can assure you that I didn't make it up. If I said I did, alot of people with PhD's could accuse me of plagerism.

Yes, there is only one protagonist. But there is also such a thing as a supporting protagonist. Often the supporting protagonist is a character by which we experience their POV as well in ways that surpass a regular supporting character in a narrative.

Yes, Lois Lane is in this story because of Superman. But she often has her own motivation and point of view that is vital to the narrative. The Silver Age comics are a dated example of it. It's much more prevenant in modern stories.

On "Lois and Clark" The New Adventures if Superman", Lois Lane was the co-star of the narrative. The story was told from her POV just as much as it was told their Clark's POV

On Smallville in the later seasons, Lois was the supporting protagonist. She had her own POV and her own perspective in the story. It was Clark's story but her story was important too and she had her own story.

Another example of a supporting protagonist would be Watson in a Sherlock Holmes story. Holmes is the protagonist but Watson is more important to the narrative than a supporting character.

The supporting protagonist is usually NOT a romantic interest which is why sometimes it's hard to peg them. The reason for that is probably because so many of these narratives feature more revolving doors in terms of love interests. Superman is one of the rare narrative where 1.) the character in question is a woman and 2.) where she's also the lover.

Audrey is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:35 PM   #320
TheFlamingCoco
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,877
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Another "review spoiler" on IMDB.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
As for Zod, he's deranged and scary. Not like Heath Ledger's Joker, but more like a military leader with no one to guide. This allows for a type of tragic figure, whose ideals drive him into madness and an eventual threat against Metropolis.

He initially tries to recruit Superman to "govern" this human race. When KalEl refuses, he leaves in his spaceship, seemingly gone for good. Superman flies to the Fortress of Solitude to "equip himself" in case Zod returns. It is then that he sees an attack of robots on TV and flies out.

TheFlamingCoco is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:37 PM   #321
BH/HHH
Cavill's Hairychest
 
BH/HHH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Leeds
Posts: 14,838
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco View Post
Another "review spoiler" on IMDB.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
As for Zod, he's deranged and scary. Not like Heath Ledger's Joker, but more like a military leader with no one to guide. This allows for a type of tragic figure, whose ideals drive him into madness and an eventual threat against Metropolis.

He initially tries to recruit Superman to "govern" this human race. When KalEl refuses, he leaves in his spaceship, seemingly gone for good. Superman flies to the Fortress of Solitude to "equip himself" in case Zod returns. It is then that he sees an attack of robots on TV and flies out.
Hmmmmmmm

__________________
MAN OF STEEL


THE GREATEST COMIC BOOK MOVIE OF ALL-TIME
BH/HHH is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:38 PM   #322
Kevin Smith
Banned User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Central City
Posts: 6,176
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco View Post
Another "review spoiler" on IMDB.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
As for Zod, he's deranged and scary. Not like Heath Ledger's Joker, but more like a military leader with no one to guide. This allows for a type of tragic figure, whose ideals drive him into madness and an eventual threat against Metropolis.

He initially tries to recruit Superman to "govern" this human race. When KalEl refuses, he leaves in his spaceship, seemingly gone for good. Superman flies to the Fortress of Solitude to "equip himself" in case Zod returns. It is then that he sees an attack of robots on TV and flies out.
Love it. But so...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
...the Fortress of Solitude has cable? ...or is it satellite?

Kevin Smith is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:40 PM   #323
Audrey
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 293
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Of course you be there for them and they you. That's how it should be. That's how it needs to be. But the second a guy becomes codependent and has to screen things through his woman and stops doing his own thing is the moment he loses her because he stops leading. Words of experience, that is how it always goes. I don't ever want to see that with Superman. Being there for Lois and being codependent with her are two entirely different things. Superman was always there for her.
"His woman?" When the man stops Leading? What is this 1955?

Thanks for your "words of experience" about how this "always goes" but well...no thanks. I think I'll stick to my own experience. I think this is where we just agree to disagree. Which is no problem.

Audrey is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:41 PM   #324
Audrey
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 293
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco View Post
Another "review spoiler" on IMDB.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
As for Zod, he's deranged and scary. Not like Heath Ledger's Joker, but more like a military leader with no one to guide. This allows for a type of tragic figure, whose ideals drive him into madness and an eventual threat against Metropolis.

He initially tries to recruit Superman to "govern" this human race. When KalEl refuses, he leaves in his spaceship, seemingly gone for good. Superman flies to the Fortress of Solitude to "equip himself" in case Zod returns. It is then that he sees an attack of robots on TV and flies out.
.....He has a TV??? LOL Ok....

Audrey is offline  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:43 PM   #325
Audrey
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 293
Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkKnight FTW View Post
@Audrey

This film hasn't been marketed with "Secrets", That was Amazing Spider-man. All they've said was that they're approaching it as if no other Superman movie was done. Sure, they're trying to keep as much of the plot under wraps. But anybody who knows anything about his origin can give you the template. The part that I think they're saying is different is the way the world responds to his existence. But even this has been covered some in the comics. The GA is their target because that's who's going to make it successful, not the passionate Superman fan who, as you put it, will probably be more familiar with this take. But as far as being marketed for its secrets, I haven't seen that.
Oh I agree. I just meant that I think Goyer and Co. have been talking about things that are going to be "new' in their opinion in how it relates to past movies. Most of these things won't be "new" to those of us that are familiar with the character.

Audrey is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:45 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.