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Old 04-15-2013, 10:08 PM   #226
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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I know alot of fans hate the Blake character but do you guys think you would still need Blake or a Blake type character to help finish Bruce's arc or not one at all? This is still if you would have Bruce not need Batman at the end of the film.
Absolutely. There definitely needed to be someone in Blake's role at least in order to close the arc they wanted to put Bruce through. Blake was a representation of the youth Batman set out to, and successfully in some cases, inspire. That alone makes him an important character to Bruce. It shows Bruce that he really did have a positive effect and gave him someone to pass the cowl onto that will keep the torch burning while he finally lives as himself.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:13 PM   #227
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I know alot of fans hate the Blake character but do you guys think you would still need Blake or a Blake type character to help finish Bruce's arc or not one at all? This is still if you would have Bruce not need Batman at the end of the film.
If you take Blake out completely, then Bruce really has no option but to literally die as a hero, IMO. I remember before Rises came out, I had this idea that Bruce would fake his death but live on as Bruce Wayne. Bruce would go to his parents grave and tell them that his time as the Batman was over, and that he would still continue to pay tribute to them, but not as Batman but as Bruce Wayne, all through him being even more of a philanthropist for Gotham city.

But when I watched "the journey of Bruce Wayne" featurette on TDKR blue ray, I remember Jonathan Nolan talking about how Bruce would have to leave Gotham behind completely and say to himself that what he did was good enough, and that his father would be proud. I believe that wholeheartedly now. I really can't see Bruce staying in Gotham and not being haunted by his past. Only way I could see that is if Gotham cleaned itself up for good, which would be even more ridiculous than The Dent Act cleaning up Gotham, because at least with that it was built on a lie.

But no, you don't need Blake to finish Bruce's arc. But I really think that without a successor Bruce has to die. He can't live in Gotham as just Bruce Wayne because of his past in the city itself, and he can't remove himself completely from it without a replacement; because Gotham will always need Batman.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:20 PM   #228
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

And that is why I am thankful for the existence of Blake.

I'll say this much- I don't think I would've loved TDKR nearly as much if Bruce had died. I just think it would have been the wrong note to end the trilogy on. We already know Bruce was heroic enough to give his life for his city. It's the fact that he is able to rise above that impulse that makes it so triumphant IMO.

I mean, don't you think an ending where Bruce is dead and Gotham has nobody ready to assume the mantle if someone outside the system is ever needed again would be too much of a down ending? The only reasons for happiness there would be that Bruce saved Gotham from a nuclear destruction and died a hero in the hearts of its citizens. But is that really enough long term?

Imagine Alfred's tears, but only that's the true final part of Alfred's arc. Idk, I think fans would have rioted and I wouldn't blame them. You don't take people on a 7 year journey only to break their hearts and punch them in the gut at the end.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:22 PM   #229
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

I LOVE the character of Blake myself. I even wish he had more screentime if TDKR was longer.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:26 PM   #230
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

Given the story point of Bruce's body reaching its limit, yes, it makes sense that Bruce should retire, and it makes sense that he'd want someone to take his place. I love how they handled it.

That being said, I understand people's gripes about Bruce leaving then and there though. The idea of Gotham being Bruce's place of pain is a neat story point, but perhaps it would have made more sense to take that bit out so that he could still be there, happily, to train Blake when he arrives in the cave; The suit rises in front of Blake (implying that he is going to become Batman, not a sidekick). "Are you ready to begin?".
Something like that would have worked for me as well.


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Old 04-15-2013, 10:30 PM   #231
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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And that is why I am thankful for the existence of Blake.

I'll say this much- I don't think I would've loved TDKR nearly as much if Bruce had died. I just think it would have been the wrong note to end the trilogy on. We already know Bruce was heroic enough to give his life for his city. It's the fact that he is able to rise above that impulse that makes it so triumphant IMO.

I mean, don't you think an ending where Bruce is dead and Gotham has nobody ready to assume the mantle if someone outside the system is ever needed again would be too much of a down ending? The only reasons for happiness there would be that Bruce saved Gotham from a nuclear destruction and died a hero in the hearts of its citizens. But is that really enough long term?

Imagine Alfred's tears, but only that's the true final part of Alfred's arc. Idk, I think fans would have rioted and I wouldn't blame them. You don't take people on a 7 year journey only to break their hearts and punch them in the gut at the end.
I think fans and the general audience had prepared themselves for the worse. I know on Kevin Smiths podcast he said when Batman was in the cockpit of the Bat, with that look of "this is it" on his face, that he was totally fine with Batman actually dieing. So I do think it would have been accepted had Batman died in the end.

But would it have been too much of a down note? That depends on how it played out. I was never thrilled on Bruce and Selina ending up together, but after seeing the film two more times, and really thinking about it, I actually really, really enjoyed that cafe scene at the end.

But if Bruce did die, the reason for him climbing out of the pit would have to be changed, plus a lot of other things. So him living was indeed for the best.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:30 PM   #232
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

I'd no problem with the retirement or the mantle being passed on. It was that Blake was a complete and utter bore of a character.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:31 PM   #233
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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I LOVE the character of Blake myself. I even wish he had more screentime if TDKR was longer.
Oh come on, dude had enough screen time as it is, lol. If we ever did get an extended cut of TDKR, and it had more Blake I'd be beyond livid.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:33 PM   #234
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

If his name was Grayson or McGinnis, I guarantee that the reaction would have been much different from comic fans.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:35 PM   #235
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If his name was Grayson or McGinnis, guaranteed the reaction would be much different.
I really think the "Robin" nod would have worked better if Blake's name was Richard Grayson. But that's just me.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:41 PM   #236
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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Oh come on, dude had enough screen time as it is, lol. If we ever did get an extended cut of TDKR, and it had more Blake I'd be beyond livid.
He didn't have enough. Or at least, enough screen time that was worth it. The second act was the whole trying to fix the bomb and all that jazz, but I would've loved to see Blake doing something else. Helping Batman more, or even helping Selina...hell, as he was packing the kids in the school bus, him having a chance to take down Crane as his first official villain would've been phenomenal as well.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:44 PM   #237
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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He didn't have enough. Or at least, enough screen time that was worth it. The second act was the whole trying to fix the bomb and all that jazz, but I would've loved to see Blake doing something else. Helping Batman more, or even helping Selina...hell, as he was packing the kids in the school bus, him having a chance to take down Crane as his first official villain would've been phenomenal as well.
I felt we got more than enough Blake. But him somehow taking Crane down would be an interesting idea.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:53 PM   #238
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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I think fans and the general audience had prepared themselves for the worse. I know on Kevin Smiths podcast he said when Batman was in the cockpit of the Bat, with that look of "this is it" on his face, that he was totally fine with Batman actually dieing. So I do think it would have been accepted had Batman died in the end.

But would it have been too much of a down note? That depends on how it played out. I was never thrilled on Bruce and Selina ending up together, but after seeing the film two more times, and really thinking about it, I actually really, really enjoyed that cafe scene at the end.

But if Bruce did die, the reason for him climbing out of the pit would have to be changed, plus a lot of other things. So him living was indeed for the best.
Well, I guess everyone would have had their own reactions. I'm just basing on it on how I felt watching the ending for the first time. Which was sad and kind of numb when he was "dead", just thinking "He better be alive or I'm gonna walk out pissed." Because I think while we had prepared ourselves for the worst, and part of the rollercoaster ride was not knowing for sure if he'd make it out a live, ultimately this movie needed to have that "F*** YES!" feeling at the end and I was relieved they delivered on that. Ya know? BB had a typical heroic triumphant ending, but an epilogue that warned bad things were coming. TDK already did the "downer but inspirational" ending. I think they earned uber mega ultimate happy (with a dash of cynicism to be sure) ending for TDKR, and it was just cool to see Bruce finally at peace...a rare and unique thing for any incarnation of Batman.

So yeah, I wouldn't trade that cafe scene at the end for anything.

And it's funny about Blake...I'm honestly not even the biggest JGL fan. I wasn't overly thrilled with the idea of him being in this movie to begin with, but he actually won me over with the performance. I thought he had very good chemistry with Bale and Oldman, and that scene on the bridge at the end really was one of the most emotional moments of the movie for me. I never was really bored when he was on screen, just kind of surprised that he had so much screen time. The whole Robin thing really caught me off guard, cause I went into the movie 100% convinced that he was nothing more than a side character. Maybe it was denial, idk. So he was more of a pleasant surprise for me than anything.

Now, am I enough of a Blake fan that I'd want to see him play Batman in a future movie? Aw hell naw. I think he served his purpose and I feel the book should stay closed on Blake along with the rest of the Nolanverse. I'd only be okay with JGL playing Nightwing, but Batman? Nevah.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:58 PM   #239
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I agree about the film earning the happy ending. It's not sappy or anything, but F-yeah, as you put it batlobsterrises.

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Old 04-15-2013, 11:16 PM   #240
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Yeah, I really like how they didn't overdo it even the cafe ending, which could've been so much cheesier in lesser hands. Just a really quick shot, Bruce gives a little nod and subtle smile, then quickly looks away. Very tasteful.

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Old 04-16-2013, 12:04 AM   #241
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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I felt we got more than enough Blake. But him somehow taking Crane down would be an interesting idea.
I always imagined Crane running away from the war in front of City Hall, only to run into Blake and he tries to use maybe some fear gas on him, but Blake stops Crane before that even happens, knocking him out and cuffing him to a post or something.

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Old 04-16-2013, 02:03 PM   #242
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I would've much preferred if Batman had died and Blake would've never existed to begin with. I think that would've made Bruce's sacrifice a lot more heroic and would've been an ending that would've did much more justice to the essence of Batman as a whole. I know some people will disagree with me because they say that would be too tragic, but Batman is all about tragedy to begin with so I wouldn't have a problem with it. Personally, I would've ended the trilogy with a more open ending and with Bruce continuing as Batman but given the choice between the ending we got and Bruce actually dying for Gotham, I would've went with the latter.

In hindsight, another reason why I would've preferred for Bruce to die and for Blake to not exist to begin with is to put a complete end to the possibility of Nolan's Batman (either Bruce or Blake) to be featured in the Justice League film and in the upcoming DC Cinematic Universe. For the past few months, I've been getting really annoyed of all the people that keep insisting Nolan's Batman should be in the JL despite his Batman not being a good fit for a proper JL film for multiple obvious reasons. People can't move on or accept the fact that Nolan's series is over and they're letting their love for the Nolan films cloud their judgment. I also hope that WB does not do this, which we would've known for sure by now that they wouldn't do that if Bruce actually died at the end of TDKR and Blake did not exist.

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Shika, this is like the third time you've brought this up and each time I've asked you to provide a link to back up this claim, because I'm relatively certain that Goyer said no such thing. If you could prove this, it'd give your argument that TDKR as "Plan B" a lot more weight. But I really think you're mistaken or misinformed here. As someone who ravenously read every interview from all the members of the creative team, I feel at least 90% sure that Goyer did not spill any beans about what the third movie was gonna be post-TDK.
I'm still looking for that interview. I haven't seen or read it in 5 years and also to be fair, he said that he thinks that's what Batman 3 will be about, not that it will definitely be about that. But to me personally, that is still an indication that TDKR is "plan B". I know you would disagree though.

I'll let you know when I find it (if I find it) and if anyone reading this is able to find it, I would greatly appreciate that.

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If his name was Grayson or McGinnis, I guarantee that the reaction would have been much different from comic fans.
My problem then would be that they turned Dick/Terry into a generic Gary Stu character.

I can play the name game as well. Imagine an alternate universe where TDKR is literally the exact same movie that it is in this universe with the only difference being the parts in the marketing and in the credits that says "directed by Brett Ratner" as opposed to "directed by Christopher Nolan". How would've people reacted to the film if that was the case?

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Old 04-16-2013, 02:49 PM   #243
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I'm still looking for that interview. I haven't seen or read it in 5 years and also to be fair, he said that he thinks that's what Batman 3 will be about, not that it will definitely be about that. But to me personally, that is still an indication that TDKR is "plan B". I know you would disagree though.

I'll let you know when I find it (if I find it) and if anyone reading this is able to find it, I would greatly appreciate that.
Alright, but I hope you don't mind that for now I'm just going to continue thinking that you're mistaken about that interview and that Goyer never said that. If someone can produce that interview then maybe I'd reconsider my standing on whether or not TDKR was truly a Plan B that took the place of a previous Plan A that was concocted after TDK was written but while Ledger was still alive.


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I can play the name game as well. Imagine an alternate universe where TDKR is literally the exact same movie that it is in this universe with the only difference being the parts in the marketing and in the credits that says "directed by Brett Ratner" as opposed to "directed by Christopher Nolan". How would've people reacted to the film if that was the case?
Lol, I'd be like "Holy crap Brett Ratner is a GENIUS".

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Old 04-16-2013, 03:33 PM   #244
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Alright, but I hope you don't mind that for now I'm just going to continue thinking that you're mistaken about that interview and that Goyer never said that. If someone can produce that interview then maybe I'd reconsider my standing on whether or not TDKR was truly a Plan B that took the place of a previous Plan A that was concocted after TDK was written but while Ledger was still alive.
That is fair, and so that I could be fair as well, I'll stop bringing it up whenever we discuss this film (except for when I find it, of course).

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Lol, I'd be like "Holy crap Brett Ratner is a GENIUS".
Lol, I can't imagine the day someone says that .

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Old 04-16-2013, 03:38 PM   #245
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Lol, I can't imagine the day someone says that .
I can't imagine the day Ratner makes something anything anywhere near as good as TDKR.

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Old 04-16-2013, 03:56 PM   #246
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I would've much preferred if Batman had died and Blake would've never existed to begin with. I think that would've made Bruce's sacrifice a lot more heroic and would've been an ending that would've did much more justice to the essence of Batman as a whole. I know some people will disagree with me because they say that would be too tragic, but Batman is all about tragedy to begin with so I wouldn't have a problem with it. Personally, I would've ended the trilogy with a more open ending and with Bruce continuing as Batman but given the choice between the ending we got and Bruce actually dying for Gotham, I would've went with the latter.
If Bruce ended up dying, I think Blake and Selina both should've been taken out of the film because Blake ends up taking the mantle and Selina was that person that paralleled Bruce in wanting a clean start and both would have to go if Bruce ended up just dying in the end. And in the long run, it could've worked even better as to give Talia the more screen time as the love interest, building her character up with having a real relationship with Bruce and then Batman having to beat both her and Bane in the end of the film, only to sacrifice himself.

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Old 04-16-2013, 04:52 PM   #247
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Bruce dying for his city is what he always would have done, especially now in TDKR, when he has nothing to live for.

Finding the will to survive and not just letting himself die as a martyr, finding the strength to move on, etc, shows growth in his character.

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Old 04-16-2013, 09:46 PM   #248
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[QUOTE=BatLobsterRises;25613659]Alright, but I hope you don't mind that for now I'm just going to continue thinking that you're mistaken about that interview and that Goyer never said that. If someone can produce that interview then maybe I'd reconsider my standing on whether or not TDKR was truly a Plan B that took the place of a previous Plan A that was concocted after TDK was written but while Ledger was still alive.

Not sure how much this is the gospel, but it sounds legit. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/quora/...b_1685043.html And as much as I'm on your side with most things about Rises, I still think they had to write Rises in such a way as to not include the Joker or have to explain him. Technically, no, its not an official "plan B" but I don't think it was the exact story they probably wanted to have to tell (other than at least the passing of the mantle in some capacity). They still left the Joker alive at the end of TDK to allow the possibility of a return in #3 (perhaps if only a la a Scarecrow cameo).

Sadly, Nolan will probably never spill the beans on what he was thinking so if only all of our ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas!

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Old 04-16-2013, 09:53 PM   #249
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Not sure how much this is the gospel, but it sounds legit. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/quora/...b_1685043.html And as much as I'm on your side with most things about Rises, I still think they had to write Rises in such a way as to not include the Joker or have to explain him. Technically, no, its not an official "plan B" but I don't think it was the exact story they probably wanted to have to tell (other than at least the passing of the mantle in some capacity). They still left the Joker alive at the end of TDK to allow the possibility of a return in #3 (perhaps if only a la a Scarecrow cameo).

Sadly, Nolan will probably never spill the beans on what he was thinking so if only all of our ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas!
Well, to be fair, what Shikamaru and I are discussing isn't so much whether The Joker would return or not, it's whether or not David Goyer ever said anything about the third film dealing with Batman being on the run from the GCPD.

I have no doubt that TDKR would've been a different film had Heath Ledger lived, but I'm not so sure they ever really had a definite plan for the third film once TDK consolidated what were the ideas for "Batman Begins 2 and 3". My argument is more trying to say- how could there even be a plan B if there wasn't really a plan A?

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Old 04-16-2013, 10:57 PM   #250
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Alright, but I hope you don't mind that for now I'm just going to continue thinking that you're mistaken about that interview and that Goyer never said that. If someone can produce that interview then maybe I'd reconsider my standing on whether or not TDKR was truly a Plan B that took the place of a previous Plan A that was concocted after TDK was written but while Ledger was still alive.
I actually read that interview a long time ago as well. In fact, I'm sure it's floating around the boards here somewhere. But I do remember Goyer being quoted saying that "the Joker would be on trial" and "Batman being hunted down by the GCPD".

I'm also in the camp thinking that TDKR was plan B.


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