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Old 05-28-2013, 12:30 AM   #301
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

I've said for a long time that studios underestimate the value of diversity in movies. I wish more ensemble blockbusters would do what th FF series does? like seriously, is there a race/ethnicity that has not shown up at some point in the series? its great stuff really. There's no reason why a movie like Inception should be at white-washed as it was.

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Old 05-28-2013, 01:40 AM   #302
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

I don't really think the blame falls on the faceless studio exec as much as we think because they are business men or women. They would make a movie out of Puff the Magic Dragon if they thought they could make a buck out of it. I put more blame on the people in charge of casting from casting agencies to directors. For instance Josh Trank director of Chronicle this guy is only 27-28yrs old but wants to make the controversial move among fans of hiring his friend Michael B.Jordan to play a historically white Human Torch.

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Old 05-28-2013, 05:51 AM   #303
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I've said for a long time that studios underestimate the value of diversity in movies. I wish more ensemble blockbusters would do what th FF series does? like seriously, is there a race/ethnicity that has not shown up at some point in the series? its great stuff really. There's no reason why a movie like Inception should be at white-washed as it was.
You mean like most Tyler Perry and Spike Lee movies? Or BET? I'm not saying everything has to be exactly as it was in the comics or anything. But it goes both ways.

To me, as long as they dont change the character's personality and the story still makes sense, and it is of course performed well, I don't care what his or her race is. I do believe characters like Batman or Superman cannot be changed because the character's history would be very different if he was a different race. Same goes with characters like Storm and Black Panther. Obviously you can't make them Asian or white.

But smaller characters, sure, why not see what happens? That's what I like about Green Lantern. That power can go to anyone of any race or creed. Allows for great diversity.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:51 AM   #304
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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You mean like most Tyler Perry and Spike Lee movies? Or BET? I'm not saying everything has to be exactly as it was in the comics or anything. But it goes both ways.
Will Ferrell movies compare better with Tyler Perry movies rather than a huge summer blockbuster that's meant for everyone, but is pretty whitewashed anyway. And when Spike Lee does movies for wide release they aren't black leaning at all, re: Inside Man, Oldboy. There's no equivalency in the diversity between entertainment that covers a given history and culture, and entertainment that is independent of any given history or culture and further needs people of all cultures to partake in order to be successful. That does not go both ways.

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Old 05-28-2013, 10:34 AM   #305
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

^^Whew...thanks for the response that was more eloquent and diplomatic than what I was typing.

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:16 PM   #306
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

Yay for Diplomacy!

Speaking of, I think that the Black Panther film should touch on all the sociopolitical and racial issues in the same way the rest of the MCU films. I'm thinking about The Mandarin, I'm thinking about Cap saying "So we're taking everybody?" When releasing the Japanese-American soldier... but at the same time, ignore it completely during every other part of the film.

I think having a single villain embody that Imperialism would be best, as Wakanda really doesn't work without it, and that goes back to the whole Klaw legacy idea from earlier in the thread. Ulysses' great grandfather came for Wakanda back in the day, which is how he knows about its resources in the first place. It's also the reason for Wakanda becoming separate from the rest of the world... so there you have a tidy little package to read into at your leisure and everyone else can just be 'Man, that Klaw is a horrible person!'

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:34 PM   #307
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Will Ferrell movies compare better with Tyler Perry movies rather than a huge summer blockbuster that's meant for everyone, but is pretty whitewashed anyway. And when Spike Lee does movies for wide release they aren't black leaning at all, re: Inside Man, Oldboy. There's no equivalency in the diversity between entertainment that covers a given history and culture, and entertainment that is independent of any given history or culture and further needs people of all cultures to partake in order to be successful. That does not go both ways.
All I'm saying is while there are movies that seem to only star white people, there are also a number of movies that only have black people. Neither side is right, and it's sickening. But you can't point out "white-washed" movies without also acknowledging that it happens with other races.

The difference with comic book movies is that these characters are already established in other media. You aren't creating a whole new story and making it all one race. You're actually changing pre-established characters. I'm not a fan of it, but in some cases, it doesn't bother me.

To me, there are characters whose race should never change:
Clark Kent
Bruce Wayne
T'Challa
Ororo Monroe
Magneto

Just to name a few.

In the case being discussed, Johnny Storm, there are a few things to keep in mind. Will he and Sue still be siblings? Will the both be black? Or if Sue is another race, is Johnny adopted? It's not impossible, or wrong to do. It will just be tricky.

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:38 PM   #308
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

Just curious, what race do you think Magneto is?

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:49 PM   #309
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

well basically Magneto can't be black or hispanic or anything other than European looking. He's from a German Jewish family, he was imprisoned in Auschwitz.

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:54 PM   #310
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

Actually a lot of plot lines point at Mags being Roma and not Jewish. The Nazis persecuted a lot of people, including the gypsies.

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Old 05-28-2013, 05:23 PM   #311
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

To most people, white is white. I'm not even trying to be a smart ass, but that is how it's viewed in a lot of instances.

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Old 05-28-2013, 05:28 PM   #312
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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All I'm saying is while there are movies that seem to only star white people, there are also a number of movies that only have black people. Neither side is right, and it's sickening. But you can't point out "white-washed" movies without also acknowledging that it happens with other races.
So... it's "sickening" that a movie about growing up in a black neighborhood is comprised almost entirely of black people? It's "sickening" that a story about an African American Regiment in the Civil War mostly stars black people? Or how about a TV show about Bill Cosby's family, is that "sickening" that his wife and all of his children were black? Are they wrong, for telling a story that is essentially about black people?

Now certain white washed movies and TV shows don't receive any detraction for being so. Gladiator. Eat Pray Love. Hell, How I Met Your Mother. Even Lord of the Rings. These are stories about white history and culture, so it's not at all sickening or biased that these stories be exclusively white. We can all still enjoy them, too!

Now if I make a movie that's about American culture, or about modern life, and I decide black people aren't a major part of that, that's something different. That's notable, and we do note it for movies like Inception, which take the theme of: "Okay, we have a minority with a speaking role, so shut up" especially in contrast with movies like Fast and Furious 4,5 and 6 which are more like. "Race? Yeah, there's a race - oh, you mean - okay, yeah, we have a white guy, so shut up. More Asians! More Blacks! More whatever-Disel-and-Rock-are!" For something so mindless, it's actually more inclusive and progressive and less myopic than something introspective like Inception.

Edit: What's *really* interesting is that as China becomes a bigger and bigger market, the tendency is to use an Asian actor as the token minority rather than a black one. I find that indicative of an incredible racial bias on Hollywood's part, a sort of whats-the-least-we-can-do, oh-sorry-you-don't-test-well rather than anything story-based.

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The difference with comic book movies is that these characters are already established in other media. You aren't creating a whole new story and making it all one race. You're actually changing pre-established characters. I'm not a fan of it, but in some cases, it doesn't bother me.
Of course you're changing pre-established characters. You're changing their clothes, their buildings, their way of speaking, their backgrounds, their supporting cast, their height, weight, complexion, costumes and so much more. In some cases you're even changing their powers, occupations, goals, personalities, species and core biological nature. Some people don't feel these are changes, even though they are. But everyone feels race *is* a change. It would be interesting to see why people feel that way.

I understand that this particular rumored change, bothers some people a great deal... but that doesn't mean that it is the case being discussed in a Black Panther thread. There are other threads for that. There is enough racial commentary to discuss in Black Panther without adding the thoroughly disconnected Fantastic Four movie Universe.

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Old 05-28-2013, 05:41 PM   #313
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

Look, if I can watch an entire episode of Seinfeld you can watch a movie or tv show with nothing but black people.

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Old 05-28-2013, 05:51 PM   #314
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Look, if I can watch an entire episode of Seinfeld you can watch a movie or tv show with nothing but black people.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:57 PM   #315
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

So... I want a storyline in the movie where T'Challa has got it figured out all along. Since Bruce Wayne isn't on that Sherlock Holmes stuff, Black Panther might as well be.

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Old 05-28-2013, 10:01 PM   #316
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what do you mean "it"

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Old 05-28-2013, 11:10 PM   #317
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I've said for a long time that studios underestimate the value of diversity in movies. I wish more ensemble blockbusters would do what th FF series does? like seriously, is there a race/ethnicity that has not shown up at some point in the series? its great stuff really. There's no reason why a movie like Inception should be at white-washed as it was.
I have long thought that Hollywood really needs to put forth efforts to have more diversity in their castings. They keep coming up with self fulfilling prophecies instead of actually trying. They won't put many minorities or females in a major role behind a blockbuster action movie because they say that it won't sell. Well how the hell would they know if they haven't put forth that many efforts? Sure you got you movies with Angelina Jolie or Denzel, but it's like they only make room for one token as a way to shut people up instead of trying to make better progress. If they don't try then they won't know how the audience truly feels. If you put up a bunch of $100 million and well marketed movies featuring black casts that bomb I would understand, but that hasn't happened at all.

What DrCosmic said made sense about how there are settings to where you would expect to see many white people. If I'm going to watch a movie about the French Revolution I imagine there would be nothing but white people due to that setting. It's the same as if I were to see a movie about the Yakuza. I wouldn't be all, "Why ain't no bruthas in the Yakuza, mayne? That ain't cool!"

But if it's a movie about the end of the world with a bunch of random strangers living in the last known colony of humanity? Why in the hell should they all be white? That's where there should be more diversity. That's a situation that you literally can create a cast from scratch to look however you want, yet they're mostly white men and a few tokens to ease complaints from other demographics.

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Old 05-28-2013, 11:14 PM   #318
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I don't know... an it.

Monica Lynne is a CIA/SHIELD agent... or the secret to making Vibranium energy weapons...
or Klaw's plan. I think that might be classier actually. A real Sherlock Holmes 'Oh, you thought there'd be Vibranium in those crates, well you see...' at which point he goes on to explain how some innocuous interaction clued him into the true nature of Klaw's double agent, whom revealed his intent by some seemingly unimportant action, 'and then it was a simple matter of' following him to the drop spot, where T'Challa faked the pickup area, and while he appeared to be incapacitated, had Zuri/Shuri switch out the crates for the fakes, and so now, "here we are, you with no vibranium, and me with no reason to kill you, please give me one."

That sounded convoluted, and you'd kinda have to hint earlier in the film that he has that capacity/attention to detail/observational skills, but yeah, that.

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Old 05-31-2013, 08:32 AM   #319
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

Africa's New Cities seems relevant.


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Old 05-31-2013, 10:39 AM   #320
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

Wow, a lot of those look great. Hope city would be awesome if it came out like the design.

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Old 06-01-2013, 11:14 AM   #321
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Many people don't even know Vin Diesel or The Rock are part black.

I don't think the ethnicity of lead characters harms the box office. Its a BS myth Hollywood likes to chat as an excuse to cover their racist asses. They have similar views about women as leads in action films or having an Asian man as a lead in anything that doesn't involve martial arts.
This. Even as recently as 1999, studio execs were still using race as an excuse to not cast Denzel Washington.

Marty Bregman (producer of Scarface and Carlito's Way among many others) wanted Denzel as the star of The Bone Collector. Bregman went to a studio exec to say he wanted Denzel, and the exec basically said no. He gave some feeble excuses about not being able to market Denzel to white audiences in southern states. Bregman knew this guy was just being a racist jacka$$, so he told him that the head of the studio was married to a black woman and his kids were half-black. Bregman said he'd let the studio head know that this executive had racist casting tendencies. The exec got scared and next day, Denzel got the role. Bregman only recently told this story.

But think about it. This is Denzel Washington we are talking about. By 1999, he was already an established box office draw for several years (though he became a much bigger one after Remember The Titans and Training Day) and one of the most respected actors in the buisness. Yet even he was still facing racial discrimination from studio execs when it came to casting. Who knows how many other roles Denzel has lost over the years because some faceless, racist studio exec with greenlighting power simply didn't want to see a black face in the lead role. And I can imagine this exec letting them cast a less bankable white actor in the role (just like unknown white actors like Sam Worthingon or Taylor Kitsch have gotten chances to be the leads in huge movies).

There are a lot of racists in positions of power in Hollywood, who do not want to see black leads becoming commonplace or being seen as the norm. That's why they aren't even trying to bring anybody through after Will and Denzel. Actors like Chadwick Boseman (who played Jackie Robinson in 42) would never even get a chance to headline a movie, unless they had no choice but to cast black.

But if they were still attempting to deny Denzel roles not that long ago, based on race, what hope do other budding black leading men have. Ultimately, they know that black leading men have proven enourmously popular in the forms of Smith and Denzel....you'd think they'd try to find similar models to those guys and build them up to stardom, but they'd rather not.


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Old 06-02-2013, 11:24 AM   #322
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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This. Even as recently as 1999, studio execs were still using race as an excuse to not cast Denzel Washington.

Marty Bregman (producer of Scarface and Carlito's Way among many others) wanted Denzel as the star of The Bone Collector. Bregman went to a studio exec to say he wanted Denzel, and the exec basically said no. He gave some feeble excuses about not being able to market Denzel to white audiences in southern states. Bregman knew this guy was just being a racist jacka$$, so he told him that the head of the studio was married to a black woman and his kids were half-black. Bregman said he'd let the studio head know that this executive had racist casting tendencies. The exec got scared and next day, Denzel got the role. Bregman only recently told this story.

But think about it. This is Denzel Washington we are talking about. By 1999, he was already an established box office draw for several years (though he became a much bigger one after Remember The Titans and Training Day) and one of the most respected actors in the buisness. Yet even he was still facing racial discrimination from studio execs when it came to casting. Who knows how many other roles Denzel has lost over the years because some faceless, racist studio exec with greenlighting power simply didn't want to see a black face in the lead role. And I can imagine this exec letting them cast a less bankable white actor in the role (just like unknown white actors like Sam Worthingon or Taylor Kitsch have gotten chances to be the leads in huge movies).

There are a lot of racists in positions of power in Hollywood, who do not want to see black leads becoming commonplace or being seen as the norm. That's why they aren't even trying to bring anybody through after Will and Denzel. Actors like Chadwick Boseman (who played Jackie Robinson in 42) would never even get a chance to headline a movie, unless they had no choice but to cast black.

But if they were still attempting to deny Denzel roles not that long ago, based on race, what hope do other budding black leading men have. Ultimately, they know that black leading men have proven enourmously popular in the forms of Smith and Denzel....you'd think they'd try to find similar models to those guys and build them up to stardom, but they'd rather not.
There are so many examples of execs and casting directors doing this. Samuel L Jackson getting a hold of the script for THE USUAL SUSPECTS and being interested in a role only to be told by whoever was casting the picture that there were no parts in it for black actors(something Bryan Singer claims he found out about only when Jackson mentioned it in an interview), Todd 'Different Strokes' Bridges being offered a part in THE BREAKFAST CLUB by John Hughes himself during a plane trip only to be told by the film's co-producer at a later meeting that they didn't know how to write for black characters etc. The list of examples is sadly long.

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Old 06-02-2013, 11:42 AM   #323
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OMG, there an alternate universe where Todd Bridges is featured in the Breakfast Club.

I'm kinda happy racism won that battle. The movie is perfect as it is.

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Old 06-02-2013, 12:46 PM   #324
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OMG, there an alternate universe where Todd Bridges is featured in the Breakfast Club.

I'm kinda happy racism won that battle. The movie is perfect as it is.
That's not the point. In that scenario you write a character first and foremost and not somehow think the colour of the actor's skin completely changes what's on the page. It's said, on the other side of things, the role of Murtaugh (LETHAL WEAPON) was written for a white actor until somebody mentioned Danny Glover as a possibility for the part and Richard Donner intially admitted he didn't see anything about the character that made him 'black'...something he immediately realised was a completely wrong minded thought to have.

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Old 06-02-2013, 02:08 PM   #325
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

A number of Will Smiths roles were written for White actors originally and Will Smith has talked about his interest in doing a romantic comedy with Cameron Diaz only for Hollywood execs to back off because they have doubts a mainstream romantic comedy with a black male and white women would sell despite the star power of the two of them.

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