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Old 07-11-2013, 12:40 PM   #601
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Honestly, it's like they said. Audiences will accept anything as long as they enjoy it and are brought into the world. Wakanda can and will be a great addition to the MCU. The MCU as it is, is a world where anything is possible. People understand this so it's not hard to imagine that they will accept Wakanda. The fact that it's a part of the MCU and not just a solo film will actually help it and not hinder it. If explained correctly the fact that an African village is the most technologically advanced place in the world and it is hidden off from the rest of the world is not that hard. Explain that Vibranium allows the country to not be detected on any map, satellite, tech etc. It's been done in other movies and shows before where a location is hidden from everything so it's not hard to do that to Wakanda.
I've heard this sentence before, but how can it be true? What aspect of toning down every hero, their arsenal (with possible exception of Cap's shield) and their environment tells us that anything is possible? Do we believe that if they decided to have everyone on Earth turn blue without explanation that the audience would be okay with that? That certainly falls under "anything."

I can definitely imagine how they would accept Wakanda - if they see it built like all the other fantastic earthly things in the MCU, or see the hero humbled to be like the rest of humanity and working without it like the unearthly Thor. But is that what people want? No, people seem to want the equivalent of Iron Man showing up with a full Hall of Armors and Comicbook Extremis in his blood, all given to him by his father, from the beginning of Iron Man 1, and that's a bad story. Anything is possible - if you earn it, sure. By the end of Black Panther 2 or 3, having Hidden Isolationist Coruscant would work just fine, because the audience is invested in it. But you can't do that from day 1, does that make sense?

As for the MCU helping it, yes it helps in marketing-wise, but directors have been let loose from projects because their vision doesn't fit within the MCU. The MCU constrains what's possible, as all continuity always does. Especially when it's building towards a big event - as the MCU always is.

The idea of reducing Wakanda to a village is interesting though. Again, that supports my point - the more you tone it down, like the rest of the MCU has been, the more it fits in with the MCU and with our world and the hearts of the audience.

And again, someone brings in 'other movies' as examples, but if we go through those examples, I strongly suspect no one wants BP to be like those movies, but they want BP to have the same effect as those movies. As though 'hiding from view' is a story point that occurs in a vacuum whose perception and acceptance is in no way affected by the context of the rest of the film. We can't have our cake and eat it too.

Edit: Overall, I guess my question is: what does 'bringing the audience into the world' look like to you? What movies are you referencing for the effect that you want?

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The Transformers franchise says otherwise.
I diagree. Transformers is infantile in its humor, and the cybertronaians are two dimensional characters (which doesn't work against the quality of the film), but the story is definitely not bad. Simple, perhaps, but not bad. That's like saying Avatar had a bad story.

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Old 07-11-2013, 12:47 PM   #602
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That is not confirmed.

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Old 07-11-2013, 12:50 PM   #603
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Just wanted to say that if they are looking for a young actor to play Black Panther then Michael B. Jordan is prob being seriously considered along with Chadwick Boseman. He def is at least now; reason being I supposedly heard his performance in Fruitvale Station was amazing and star making(looking at early reviews on Rottentommatoes). Couple that with his great performance in Chronicle(superhero film also) and he def has a shot at getting the role.
He also notes he was up for Falcon and Harry Osborn (ASM2). He's definitely in the running, and honestly, he's a really great actor. I would not be even the least bit hurt if he was cast as T'Challa.

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I've said it before, I'll say it again: the way to go is to have Wakanda be the Japan of Africa. They weren't a hypertech city in the jungle. . . but they *were* culturally and technologically advanced relative to their neighbors, such that once the colonial powers started poking around in their neighborhood, they could fend them off and remain independent. Post-renaissance development turned into modern industrial achievement in the space of a few decades. . . but there are still cultural rifts remaining, akin to the conflicts behind the Meiji Restoration. Some people want to take Wakanda upward and outward, advancing in the world and the future, while others dream of a return to the older ways, when there was just Wakanda and its inargued(?) greatness, untouchable at the center of its jungle nation.
I agreed with this before, its an excellent compromise. It gives a nod to the comics history without the idea of "there's this entire country that people just forgot to ever care about."

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Old 07-11-2013, 06:18 PM   #604
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He's playing the Human Torch in the Fantastic Four reboot
This is not confirmed so please stop saying it as it's true (I would hate it if it is so).

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"the rest of the world surprisingly loves us (especially the French)"

uh, who is "us" exactly? The entire continent of Africa? Meaningless and baseless statement from beginning to end. Thanks for playing though.
Okay, maybe love is a strong word. The rest of the world definitely doesn't have the hate and disdain for people of a darker skin complexion than people of the US do (that's who I mean by us). And I've heard from a few French foreign exchange students that the French actually do really like "black" people.

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I've heard this sentence before, but how can it be true? What aspect of toning down every hero, their arsenal (with possible exception of Cap's shield) and their environment tells us that anything is possible? Do we believe that if they decided to have everyone on Earth turn blue without explanation that the audience would be okay with that? That certainly falls under "anything."

I can definitely imagine how they would accept Wakanda - if they see it built like all the other fantastic earthly things in the MCU, or see the hero humbled to be like the rest of humanity and working without it like the unearthly Thor. But is that what people want? No, people seem to want the equivalent of Iron Man showing up with a full Hall of Armors and Comicbook Extremis in his blood, all given to him by his father, from the beginning of Iron Man 1, and that's a bad story. Anything is possible - if you earn it, sure. By the end of Black Panther 2 or 3, having Hidden Isolationist Coruscant would work just fine, because the audience is invested in it. But you can't do that from day 1, does that make sense?

As for the MCU helping it, yes it helps in marketing-wise, but directors have been let loose from projects because their vision doesn't fit within the MCU. The MCU constrains what's possible, as all continuity always does. Especially when it's building towards a big event - as the MCU always is.

The idea of reducing Wakanda to a village is interesting though. Again, that supports my point - the more you tone it down, like the rest of the MCU has been, the more it fits in with the MCU and with our world and the hearts of the audience.

And again, someone brings in 'other movies' as examples, but if we go through those examples, I strongly suspect no one wants BP to be like those movies, but they want BP to have the same effect as those movies. As though 'hiding from view' is a story point that occurs in a vacuum whose perception and acceptance is in no way affected by the context of the rest of the film. We can't have our cake and eat it too.

Edit: Overall, I guess my question is: what does 'bringing the audience into the world' look like to you? What movies are you referencing for the effect that you want?
First, I keep seeing you use that term please explain what it means.

Secondly, it's pretty reasonable to assume that the MCU is moving towards more of an almost anything is possible in this universe approach. Seriously, look at what's came out and what's coming out. Hulk saw a man able to turn into a giant green monster. Avengers saw an alien invasion. IM3 saw a brain enhancement that allows people to regenerate, explode and breathe fire. Thor 2 is seeing more of the 9 realms explored. Cap 2 is seeing yet another person who has lived since the 40s. GotG is probably going to be a lot more crazy s*** too along with a space corps tasked with keeping the galaxy safe. The S.H.E.I.L.D. show will see more crazy out there things. Avengers 2 will see a twin duo consisting of a person with superspeed and someone with insane hex powers plus whatever else they introduce. Ant-Man sees a man who can shrink and control ants through a helmet. Dr. Strange sees a man become a Sorcerer Supreme and probably battle some crazed out evil entity. How hard is it to imagine an uber advanced hidden African village in this world? The MCU is moving less from the original semi steeped in reality, scientific based explanations for everything and more into an anything is possible in this universe. When they say movies have to fit into the MCU it doesn't mean in terms of what could happen. It means in terms of tone and specific character wise. Blade and Punisher wouldn't fit into the MCU as it is because their characters are more dark and violent which is not the tone of the MCU right now. It's not because they aren't believable.

Thirdly, Thor was the only character whose world was substantially changed. While it may not be the exact Asgard from the comics in explanation I'm sure this new movie will definitely give us more of a feeling of Thor's world is the Asgard we know and love. And yeah they had to tone down Thor's powerset because in the comics having him beyond overpowered is okay. In the films, it's kind of immersion breaking. If we got the Thor from the comics in the movies it would make audiences confused as to why someone so powerful even needs help to stop Loki. Toning him down was needed because it helps keep people immersed.

And honestly, neither of us have any basis in our arguments truthfully. There's no real basis as to why the audience would or would not accept Wakanda as it's portrayed in the comics. The difference between changing Asgard and Wakanda is everything about Wakanda is what makes Wakanda special. The people, the tech, the fact that it's beyond advanced and hidden all make Wakanda special. Asgard on the other hand, works just as well being steeped in more of an scientific explanation for the world because while they are basically gods in the comics, they work as god-like beings from another world too. Plus once again the new movie looks to be bringing more of the comic Asgard that we knew.

And to lastly answer your question, I look at any fantasy film as my example of pulling someone into the world. Look at Harry Potter, people were able to accept running into a wall at a train station to enter a whole other world basically. That took a lot of immersion to accept that and people did because they know it's fantasy.

Seriously, how many movies have you seen fail because people didn't believe in the world being built? Not many. Not many people have sat and watched a movie and thought "man this could never happen in real life so therefore I don't like this movie."

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Old 07-12-2013, 12:01 AM   #605
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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First, I keep seeing you use that term please explain what it means.
Coruscant was the capital planet in Star Wars. Can you imagine if it was sitting on Earth, totally hidden and had been built entirely by a xenophobic isolated community that has never traded with anyone? That they had independently developed and harvested all the materials and skills and technologies necessary with no outside influence, and no one in this country had ever decided to affect the outside world for any reason? Plus, no word of the country had ever gotten out ever? Does that sound like an interesting story to you?

Quote:
Secondly, it's pretty reasonable to assume that the MCU is moving towards more of an almost anything is possible in this universe approach. Seriously, look at what's came out and what's coming out. Hulk saw a man able to turn into a giant green monster. Avengers saw an alien invasion. IM3 saw a brain enhancement that allows people to regenerate, explode and breathe fire. Thor 2 is seeing more of the 9 realms explored. Cap 2 is seeing yet another person who has lived since the 40s. GotG is probably going to be a lot more crazy s*** too along with a space corps tasked with keeping the galaxy safe. The S.H.E.I.L.D. show will see more crazy out there things. Avengers 2 will see a twin duo consisting of a person with superspeed and someone with insane hex powers plus whatever else they introduce. Ant-Man sees a man who can shrink and control ants through a helmet. Dr. Strange sees a man become a Sorcerer Supreme and probably battle some crazed out evil entity. How hard is it to imagine an uber advanced hidden African village in this world? The MCU is moving less from the original semi steeped in reality, scientific based explanations for everything and more into an anything is possible in this universe. When they say movies have to fit into the MCU it doesn't mean in terms of what could happen. It means in terms of tone and specific character wise. Blade and Punisher wouldn't fit into the MCU as it is because their characters are more dark and violent which is not the tone of the MCU right now. It's not because they aren't believable.
I'm glad we agree not anything is possible. Notice how the vast majority of your examples come from sequels and continuations... there is build up to the most fantastic elements. In every case, the fantastic elements are not in the premise, they are earned and built up to. That's what I'm suggesting, that's what all your examples do. Why don't you just agree with me? -shrug-

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Thirdly, Thor was the only character whose world was substantially changed. While it may not be the exact Asgard from the comics in explanation I'm sure this new movie will definitely give us more of a feeling of Thor's world is the Asgard we know and love. And yeah they had to tone down Thor's powerset because in the comics having him beyond overpowered is okay. In the films, it's kind of immersion breaking. If we got the Thor from the comics in the movies it would make audiences confused as to why someone so powerful even needs help to stop Loki. Toning him down was needed because it helps keep people immersed.
The feeling, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the more fantastic the element, the more it needs to be removed or toned down for the MCU. Anything is not possible. It's not just about power level either, you can still keep Thor at a lower power level even if he's a god, but the mythological element had to be toned down as well, even mocked and explained pseudo scientifically.

It's not a coincidence that the one character that demands fantastic elements at the beginning of the story had to be toned down the most. But i'm glad we agree that something being okay in the comics doesn't make it okay in the MCU.

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And honestly, neither of us have any basis in our arguments truthfully. There's no real basis as to why the audience would or would not accept Wakanda as it's portrayed in the comics. The difference between changing Asgard and Wakanda is everything about Wakanda is what makes Wakanda special. The people, the tech, the fact that it's beyond advanced and hidden all make Wakanda special. Asgard on the other hand, works just as well being steeped in more of an scientific explanation for the world because while they are basically gods in the comics, they work as god-like beings from another world too. Plus once again the new movie looks to be bringing more of the comic Asgard that we knew.
That's a copout. Storytelling is not a shot in the dark.

Everything about Asgard is what makes Asgard special too. Ask any Thor fan. Wakanda works just as well as the Japan of Africa. The people are not changed in any way just because the country is toned down. The tech varies with the writer, only processed vibranium weapons are necessary. Totally easy. Being advanced and hidden can be done without compromising the basic way international politics work or giving T'Challa an 'easy' button. There's a few different ways to do it, too.

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And to lastly answer your question, I look at any fantasy film as my example of pulling someone into the world. Look at Harry Potter, people were able to accept running into a wall at a train station to enter a whole other world basically. That took a lot of immersion to accept that and people did because they know it's fantasy.
So, you'd like to start out Black Panther as a useless scrub who knows nothing and has only the faintest glimmer of potential. Because that's what happens in Harry Potter/Star Wars/Lord of the Rings. That's how fantasy films work, they give you this incredible world, but they start you at the bottom with a skill-less ignorant child (with great potential) so you can become introduced to the world through their eyes and heart. That works for many films, but that's a bad approach for Black Panther, imho.

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Seriously, how many movies have you seen fail because people didn't believe in the world being built? Not many. Not many people have sat and watched a movie and thought "man this could never happen in real life so therefore I don't like this movie."
What do you think people are thinking of when they say "This movie was dumb." or "Meh" or simply forget about a movie and never think of it again? If someone doesn't believe in a movie, you have a failure, regardless of if or how they vocalize that.

Every movie that fails happens because people don't believe in the world being built. Every movie that succeeds exceptionally involves people believing in the world being built.

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Old 07-12-2013, 01:25 AM   #606
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^^^It all depends on how Wakanda is introduced and how it is presented. Explain that Vibranium gave them the tools to turn their village from a regular village to an uber advanced one (which is kind of like how it's presented in the comics). Explain that T'Challa or his ancestors have been secretly trading vibranium with people of the world (which is kind of hinted at in Cap 1), this would explain why they have so much money(also done in the comics). Explain how their religion is steeped in the mystical. Explain that the combination of sorcery and vibranium allows the village to shield themselves from the prying eyes of the world. Introduce us to a young T'Challa that wants to bring Wakanda to the forefront of the world and who's father decides to send T'Challa into the world to allow him to see the world for himself.

This is how Wakanda can be explained in a way that's completely believable. Don't make the story about Wakanda as much as about a future king wanting to help make his country even better but keeps getting roadblocked and is sent out into the world to make him a better fit king.

Edit: When people don't believe in a world presented to them it's not because the world is too out of the realm of possibility, it's because the movie sucked. The way the world was presented didn't draw them in. Many movies have great premises but horrible executions. That's why people don't like some movies. Not because the film is so unbelievable.

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Old 07-12-2013, 03:21 AM   #607
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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This is not confirmed so please stop saying it as it's true (I would hate it if it is so).
He practically confirmed it here: http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=37601

But regardless, that's irrelevant to this topic.

So, um, Wakanda.

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Old 07-12-2013, 05:25 AM   #608
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I think, much as was said about so much of the scope and ideas that are presented in THE AVENGERS film, there are many things that can be going on in the MCU "just beyond the screen edge". When I saw Fury at the end of IM1 I was shown no proof that a world wide peace keeping force with a helicarrier was being promised to me. SHIELD could have just been another group of guys in black suits. But there was more going on "just beyond the screen edge" than we knew. That's what it feels like Wakanda should be. In a theoretical 1st film (whose budget most likely will not be what was spent on a Cap/IM1) it will probably be better to keep some things about the Panther's homeland close to the chest. Now does this mean to totally eschew the crazy fantastic scifi/action adventure elements of the Black Panther story? No. Things can build up in follow up films (Panther sequels/Avengers films ect.) to show that world "just beyond the screen edge" of the first movie, especially if they don't do anything to contradict what has come before.

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Old 07-12-2013, 05:50 AM   #609
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He practically confirmed it here: http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=37601

But regardless, that's irrelevant to this topic.

So, um, Wakanda.
Well unless this is the most brilliant superhero film ever, it pains me to say but..... expect to see this flop.

Edit: I'm talking about FF

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Old 07-12-2013, 01:15 PM   #610
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I think, much as was said about so much of the scope and ideas that are presented in THE AVENGERS film, there are many things that can be going on in the MCU "just beyond the screen edge". When I saw Fury at the end of IM1 I was shown no proof that a world wide peace keeping force with a helicarrier was being promised to me. SHIELD could have just been another group of guys in black suits. But there was more going on "just beyond the screen edge" than we knew. That's what it feels like Wakanda should be. In a theoretical 1st film (whose budget most likely will not be what was spent on a Cap/IM1) it will probably be better to keep some things about the Panther's homeland close to the chest. Now does this mean to totally eschew the crazy fantastic scifi/action adventure elements of the Black Panther story? No. Things can build up in follow up films (Panther sequels/Avengers films ect.) to show that world "just beyond the screen edge" of the first movie, especially if they don't do anything to contradict what has come before.
That could work, that makes sense. I would take the approach a bit further in that many of the greatest things about Wakanda have been lost, and T'Challa is the one who brings them back, after learning to unify the old and new, he takes that to the next logical step in BP2, and we see more of the Hidden Isolationist Coruscant.


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^^^It all depends on how Wakanda is introduced and how it is presented. Explain that Vibranium gave them the tools to turn their village from a regular village to an uber advanced one (which is kind of like how it's presented in the comics). Explain that T'Challa or his ancestors have been secretly trading vibranium with people of the world (which is kind of hinted at in Cap 1), this would explain why they have so much money(also done in the comics). Explain how their religion is steeped in the mystical. Explain that the combination of sorcery and vibranium allows the village to shield themselves from the prying eyes of the world. Introduce us to a young T'Challa that wants to bring Wakanda to the forefront of the world and who's father decides to send T'Challa into the world to allow him to see the world for himself.

This is how Wakanda can be explained in a way that's completely believable. Don't make the story about Wakanda as much as about a future king wanting to help make his country even better but keeps getting roadblocked and is sent out into the world to make him a better fit king.

Edit: When people don't believe in a world presented to them it's not because the world is too out of the realm of possibility, it's because the movie sucked. The way the world was presented didn't draw them in. Many movies have great premises but horrible executions. That's why people don't like some movies. Not because the film is so unbelievable.
I agree with the bolded, that's why having an explanation means nothing on its own. You can have the background text scroll across the screen at the beginning and just go from there, and everything would be explained, but the viewer would not be brought into the world, it would not be 'believable' just because it's explained. That's where the underlined statement comes in. Part of movies sucking is not bringing the viewer into the story. If you want to draw people into the Black Panther, a treatise on an idealized Black History is not a good starting point.

If the story is about a future king making the country better, and on that we agree, then making the country not so awesome is necessary for that story to be great, and the worse off the country is, the better the story is. If you revolve the story around a challenge and then limit the challenge, then the movie is not as dramatic, not as interesting. I think you'll find that any good story, maybe any story that revolves around T'Challa is best served by Wakanda not being uber at the beginning of the story.

When you compare the story of an awesome prince taking an awesome imaginary country and making it better... to a real story arc, it becomes increasingly clear that uber Wakanda has to go. You want just enough greatness to nod to the comics and show it's potential, and no more.

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Old 07-12-2013, 03:47 PM   #611
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I don't think it would be a slap in the face of the BP mythos to have a ground floor on Wakanda's fantasy scifi elements that can bee built upon in later films. The writing should be deft enough so as to not contradict what has come before. And let's throw budget into the mix. This most likely won't be greenlit with MOS' budget. I think we should see some of Wakanda in a solo Panther film. But somethings for the GA should remain hinted at and mysterious. It would go well with the character and how he's viewed in the wider world of the MCU. Also, the inherent conflict of a scientifically progressive yet isolationist country must be shown to have the logical dramatic consequences to help sell it's 3dimensions and not just create a drama free utopia whose only threat comes from the outside world. An isolationist policy logically creates an oppressed group of some kind. There would be some Wakandans that would want to travel and be open to the outside world. And their motivations could be totally pure, but they run into a govt. policy that inevitably leads to the suppression of their freedom. This is fertile ground for story and world building. I hope they keep this all in mind while threading the needle of making a worthy film for BP.

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Old 07-12-2013, 03:55 PM   #612
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

While I think we'll be getting a BP movie announcement inevitably, sadly I think we'll not get what we hope we'll get. Just my pessimistic 2 cents.

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Old 07-12-2013, 04:13 PM   #613
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While I think we'll be getting a BP movie announcement inevitably, sadly I think we'll not get what we hope we'll get. Just my pessimistic 2 cents.
So... A White Tiger film? The sexy female one? YESSS!!

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Old 07-12-2013, 05:03 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
That could work, that makes sense. I would take the approach a bit further in that many of the greatest things about Wakanda have been lost, and T'Challa is the one who brings them back, after learning to unify the old and new, he takes that to the next logical step in BP2, and we see more of the Hidden Isolationist Coruscant.




I agree with the bolded, that's why having an explanation means nothing on its own. You can have the background text scroll across the screen at the beginning and just go from there, and everything would be explained, but the viewer would not be brought into the world, it would not be 'believable' just because it's explained. That's where the underlined statement comes in. Part of movies sucking is not bringing the viewer into the story. If you want to draw people into the Black Panther, a treatise on an idealized Black History is not a good starting point.

If the story is about a future king making the country better, and on that we agree, then making the country not so awesome is necessary for that story to be great, and the worse off the country is, the better the story is. If you revolve the story around a challenge and then limit the challenge, then the movie is not as dramatic, not as interesting. I think you'll find that any good story, maybe any story that revolves around T'Challa is best served by Wakanda not being uber at the beginning of the story.

When you compare the story of an awesome prince taking an awesome imaginary country and making it better... to a real story arc, it becomes increasingly clear that uber Wakanda has to go. You want just enough greatness to nod to the comics and show it's potential, and no more.
I wouldn't have a problem with them toning Wakanda down in the first movie to showcase how awesome T'Challa is in the sense that he helps build Wakanda into one of the most powerful countries that it is. That's fine. I just wouldn't want them to tone down Wakanda for the sake of people not believing Africans could be that sophisticated.

And to the other poster I think a GoT style Wakanda would be awesome. Different political factions all conspiring for different things. It could definitely fit in the vein of Black Panther.

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Old 07-12-2013, 05:10 PM   #615
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I don't think it would be a slap in the face of the BP mythos to have a ground floor on Wakanda's fantasy scifi elements that can bee built upon in later films. The writing should be deft enough so as to not contradict what has come before. And let's throw budget into the mix. This most likely won't be greenlit with MOS' budget. I think we should see some of Wakanda in a solo Panther film. But somethings for the GA should remain hinted at and mysterious. It would go well with the character and how he's viewed in the wider world of the MCU. Also, the inherent conflict of a scientifically progressive yet isolationist country must be shown to have the logical dramatic consequences to help sell it's 3dimensions and not just create a drama free utopia whose only threat comes from the outside world. An isolationist policy logically creates an oppressed group of some kind. There would be some Wakandans that would want to travel and be open to the outside world. And their motivations could be totally pure, but they run into a govt. policy that inevitably leads to the suppression of their freedom. This is fertile ground for story and world building. I hope they keep this all in mind while threading the needle of making a worthy film for BP.
Yes! A Utopia with human nature is no Utopia at all. That's exactly where M'Baka and/or Killmonger come in. Well meaning, wanting to help the world, or collaborate with outsiders to do even more incredible things, but policies are double edged, now we've got an issue! So now the old vs New Wakanda is headed by two different types of antagonists! Stuffy Beaurocracy effected by the Tribal Chiefs and destructive expansion represented by M'Baka or Killmonger. Problems, problems everywhere. That's good stuff.

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I wouldn't have a problem with them toning Wakanda down in the first movie to showcase how awesome T'Challa is in the sense that he helps build Wakanda into one of the most powerful countries that it is. That's fine. I just wouldn't want them to tone down Wakanda for the sake of people not believing Africans could be that sophisticated.

And to the other poster I think a GoT style Wakanda would be awesome. Different political factions all conspiring for different things. It could definitely fit in the vein of Black Panther.
I'm generally avoiding the race issue because that brings down this thread real quick, but I don't think the audience would be naturally emotionally invested in an imaginary hidden isolationist country with future sci-fi tech on *any* continent. Perhaps Africa especially because the general public is aware of several of the negative situations in Africa, and none of the positives. Not because "Africans aren't smart enough."

Regardless, for me, I see the movie starting with establishing shots of Johannesburg or Lagos to immediately clue the clueless into: there are Metropolises in Africa! I see it ending with T'Challa pretty much drawing a line in the sand like "Wakanda is off limits. Don't test me on this, world." And it being clear that he's more than capable of backing that up.

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Old 07-12-2013, 06:54 PM   #616
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

I think a first film should have some broad internal conflict we see under T'challa's plot driven angst is a through line of this tension between modernity and it inherent vices ect. and the comfort given by rigid tradition and belief in non rational symbols, like the Panther himself. My own druthers for how Wakanda should/could look echoes previous posters. The "Japan of Africa" has been put out there and that's a great starting point. I say go one further. It the Japan from the Godzilla films of Africa. Though not prone to giant monster attacks we should get a sense that the level of fantasy tech fielded by Wakanda would be like what the JDF are often shown throwing at the average giant escapee from monster Isle. Establish the environment by giving a little slice of life of a day in the suburbs around the Capital. Space age teleporters or jet packs? No. But we see people getting on V-TOL type air buses of similar design to the Osprey styled V-TOL. These look like reasonable modern transports, no magic anti grav so far. Residents also use highspeed monorail\bullet trains. The local police have modern clothing with some tech/armor overlays here and there. Their sidearms and weapons are Wakandan made so look like nothing else. The streets look like any modern city, but cleaner, more high tech and wired in. The ground transports are hyper fuel efficient cars.People dress from older tribal styles to mixed western styled but also still Wakandan produced clothing. Even the most traditionally dressed person has some kind of tech/PDA/tablet with them at all times. There are Wakandan aircraft of many stripes, all real world looking with rotors or high tech jet propulsion as much like Alaska settlements are far apart. Maybe getting a pilots license at 17-18yrs old there is what learning to drive is here? We see a tech savy nation using ultramodern science. If there is any "in production" super fantasy tech, odds are it's military/Royal. A peak at Wakandan armed forces would give the leeway for greater tech advancement down the line to notseem so out of place.

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Old 07-12-2013, 07:19 PM   #617
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

The whole movie should be about T'challa as a pilot for a giant mech suit called Panther God and he fights a giant white gorilla that rises from the sea and threatens to destroy Wakanda. This idea has nothing to do with me recently watching Pacific Rim, btw

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Old 07-12-2013, 07:25 PM   #618
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If we get him a team up with Jet Jaguar, we'll all make millions!

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Old 07-12-2013, 07:37 PM   #619
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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The whole movie should be about T'challa as a pilot for a giant mech suit called Panther God and he fights a giant white gorilla that rises from the sea and threatens to destroy Wakanda. This idea has nothing to do with me recently watching Pacific Rim, btw
How'd you like??

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Old 07-12-2013, 07:59 PM   #620
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How'd you like??

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Old 07-12-2013, 08:24 PM   #621
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I think a first film should have some broad internal conflict we see under T'challa's plot driven angst is a through line of this tension between modernity and it inherent vices ect. and the comfort given by rigid tradition and belief in non rational symbols, like the Panther himself. My own druthers for how Wakanda should/could look echoes previous posters. The "Japan of Africa" has been put out there and that's a great starting point. I say go one further. It the Japan from the Godzilla films of Africa. Though not prone to giant monster attacks we should get a sense that the level of fantasy tech fielded by Wakanda would be like what the JDF are often shown throwing at the average giant escapee from monster Isle. Establish the environment by giving a little slice of life of a day in the suburbs around the Capital. Space age teleporters or jet packs? No. But we see people getting on V-TOL type air buses of similar design to the Osprey styled V-TOL. These look like reasonable modern transports, no magic anti grav so far. Residents also use highspeed monorail\bullet trains. The local police have modern clothing with some tech/armor overlays here and there. Their sidearms and weapons are Wakandan made so look like nothing else. The streets look like any modern city, but cleaner, more high tech and wired in. The ground transports are hyper fuel efficient cars.People dress from older tribal styles to mixed western styled but also still Wakandan produced clothing. Even the most traditionally dressed person has some kind of tech/PDA/tablet with them at all times. There are Wakandan aircraft of many stripes, all real world looking with rotors or high tech jet propulsion as much like Alaska settlements are far apart. Maybe getting a pilots license at 17-18yrs old there is what learning to drive is here? We see a tech savy nation using ultramodern science. If there is any "in production" super fantasy tech, odds are it's military/Royal. A peak at Wakandan armed forces would give the leeway for greater tech advancement down the line to notseem so out of place.
As long as the enemy is more powerful than the combined Wakandan Armed Forces (or controls the Wakandan armed forces!) that'd be relatively acceptable. Otherwise, you're giving the hero the solution to the climax at the beginning of the film.

Instead of setting up all this greatness and then taking it away for the sake of story tension, I'd have a tech level that represents an African country that would not have made international news (and hit lists) yet. Perhaps start the movie at the beginning of an upswing/demonstration of new applications of Vibranium, which causes problems, yea, even riots. You definitely want to have people in kente and traditional garb on uber-looking tablets and stuff, but giving them the world's best military in the modern world without that immediately producing serious conflict doesn't sound plausible.

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Old 07-12-2013, 09:26 PM   #622
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

The 2 pretty apparent types of stories to tell with BP is either a full on origin of him with a build up of all the elements of the mythos. Or you can do it like how BP was introduced. His "FF origin" issue isn't an origin story. It's an unveiling! A revelation. BP's telling the FF (and the world) "I've always been here, a part of your world. You just didn't know it." I think that's the track a MCU BP should take. I understand the side that would do standard hero journey stuff, watch T'challa grow andlearn and apply his knowledge to making Wakanda powerful and prosperous. Having him shown to be the key to their hyper advanced state has its value. My view is this project has little chance to be afforded the sceentime/budget to pull off that kind of detailed scope AND hew to certain expectations for a superhero action film. I think a track where BP is already king and has built on the advancements Wakanda made under his father and grandfather in the post war years just gets us to the meat of things faster as a starting point. I am also of a mind that it's not making Wakanda an enclave of super science that defines BP's struggle, but trying to find a way to have this super advanced enclave peacfully coexist on it's own terms with the rest of thee world.

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Old 07-12-2013, 11:02 PM   #623
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

I'm not seeing how screentime/budget is a problem with any of the ideas we talked about, all of which involve detail, scope and superhero expectations. Neither do I think getting to the meat as fast as possible is the goal of a good story.

Keep in mind, the FF origin is a story in which T'Challa is not the central figure. It only works when there is another character who is a window into that world, just like with a fantasy franchise, you have to have a newbie to the world who masters that world in order to bring the audience into that world. With the FF Origin, it was the Fantastic Four, with Star Wars it's Luke, you get the picture.

I think Blade gets close to what you're describing, using the love interest as the newbie character. Notice how she has to have a heroic moment in the climax for that to work. I also think Blade is easier to do that with because the audience is already casually familiar with the world of vampires, but it's possible such a thing could be done with T'Challa. Who would you have as the newbie character? Do just like Blade (and the Jungle Action series) and have it be Monica Lynne?

Dang... I really don't like this idea, but it might almost be sound. Almost. You still can't lose a country in 2013, though.

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Old 07-12-2013, 11:30 PM   #624
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I'm not seeing how screentime/budget is a problem with any of the ideas we talked about, all of which involve detail, scope and superhero expectations. Neither do I think getting to the meat as fast as possible is the goal of a good story.

Keep in mind, the FF origin is a story in which T'Challa is not the central figure. It only works when there is another character who is a window into that world, just like with a fantasy franchise, you have to have a newbie to the world who masters that world in order to bring the audience into that world. With the FF Origin, it was the Fantastic Four, with Star Wars it's Luke, you get the picture.

I think Blade gets close to what you're describing, using the love interest as the newbie character. Notice how she has to have a heroic moment in the climax for that to work. I also think Blade is easier to do that with because the audience is already casually familiar with the world of vampires, but it's possible such a thing could be done with T'Challa. Who would you have as the newbie character? Do just like Blade (and the Jungle Action series) and have it be Monica Lynne?

Dang... I really don't like this idea, but it might almost be sound. Almost. You still can't lose a country in 2013, though.
I'd say we can agree to disagree. But I get where you are coming from Brother. Having Wakanda be presented Hudlin style, with lazer tech back during the Boer War era, and it being both prosperous and self sufficient while also being isolationist/xenophobic in a modern wired and free market world does present challenges, some too big to overcome without making certain story choices that say "this implies this, therefore we can't do this, or have this element that people may expect from the comic." I think that in my head, T'challa is a genius that has changed the face of his country in a relatively short time. But I think his father and grandfather were also men of incredibly high intellect. The generations that built the Panther lineage and Wakanda's cultural/military superiority in the region did so, in my mind with the best tactics and tech advancements available at their respective times. It's part of the reason no outside power has ever ruled Wakanda. But in present time T'challa has gone beyond that. He has quietly Tony Starked the homeland up. His advanced mind sees that his country cannot continue to be this uninvolved player on the world stage. He has international and domestic challenges that some in his country think can be ignored or papered over. If we start with him as King, with Ross/Lynne as a POV character for the audience taking us through modern day Wakanda and a little trip through it's history we may not have to see T'challa's struggles from teen years to manhood. He's an established King and the world is just now starting to reckon with his nations influence and power. But that's just me. I think that once the audience see's a little slice of what life is like for the population of Wakanda in the here and now they will be on board for whatever is thrown at them next story wise.

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Old 07-12-2013, 11:41 PM   #625
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

The last sentence isn't reality. Something being cool and powerful doesn't draw everyone in. "Yes those people have great lives, what does that have to do with me?" I'm not down for devoting all the necessary time to a POV character that is not T'Challa. Cutting to Ross fighting M'Baka while T'Challa is fighting Klaw rubs me the wrong way.

"Quietly Tony Starking" is almost an oxymoron, y'know? And then, if T'Challa is just continuing what his father and grandfather was already doing, there's no struggle for him to find what he's supposed to do, just do what he's been doing. The only problem is how to not blow up the world doing it. I'd like to see more for T'Challa to do.

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