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Old 05-20-2013, 11:32 AM   #201
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I dont think that would be a problem either as long as you make Wakanda interesting
Hmm... unless the audience cares, any potential depth will go unnoticed, or decried as distracting from whatever part they actually cared about. They're selling stories, not concepts.

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I was talking the comics not the cartoon (I don't recall how they were portrayed there). I wasn't a fan of Hudlin's run, but I remember there was a flashback scene in the first issue that showed Wakanda from centuries ago was being attacked by outsiders and they were wearing loincloths but I don't recall the modern day characters walking around in nothing but loincloths. I find that hard to believe, actually.
Even in the comics, the royal guard Shuri snuck past were loin cloth and Kirby-spears, though Hudlin implied there were others but that they were just for tourists, and not the real guards. Later, the army assembled for Secret Invasion amounts to a lot of spears though they don't have loincloths. I suspect there were others. This is not to say this is the definitive and only modern interpretation of Wakandan military, as there are black ops submachine gun wielders portrayed just as often, my original point was simply that not having loincloths and spears is not a no brainer. The adaptations doing that is just further evidence that this is so.


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Because we have the same discussion every month. IT's the same thing in the Wonder Woman film thread.
Right you are.

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Why do they have to be white super villains?

Klaw [who was white] is his first foe, and Man-Ape [who is black] a close second. I know I've seen other black villains in Panther stories but their names escape me.

The LAST thing a Panther movie needs to be is a black vs. white thing.
Well, here's how I would do it:

Black Panther
Ulysses Klaw - Mercenary Scientist employing a team of high functioning mercenaries. They set up a factory in Wakanda to make use of the Vibranium for their incredible machines.
M'Baka/Man Ape - Wakandan would-be ruler, like many adaptations, with the use of Klaw's sonic weaponry takes the throne in unfair combat. Very much like an African military dictator.

Black Panther 2
Eric Killmonger - Brilliant Wakandan expatriate, returns to set the country back to its right ways, a biologist, employs a set of superhuman Wakandan mutates. Including Venomm, Baron Macabre and Malice. Successfully usurps the throne at one point.
Hate Monger - Makes T'Challa's time in the United States not very fun at all.

Black Panther 3
Reverend Achebe - Mystic who usurps the Panther God's power by way of other cosmic forces.
Moses Magnum - Arms dealer, starts spreading the Vibranium.

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Old 05-20-2013, 11:40 AM   #202
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

I say Klaw for the first film but I would make it more international. WIth the action taking place multiple cities around the world

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Old 05-20-2013, 12:31 PM   #203
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I like Will Smith a lot, but I wish he'd take more risks. He didnt do Django because he had to be the star (his words), he never played a villain, and in fact he hasnt really done anything other than leading roles in the past 10 years.

But I will say this. I think Smith is the last true movie star. He's the only person I can think of who is a guranteed box office draw when it comes to blockbusters
Will did degrees of separation to prove he do serious acting at the start of his career.

Guys like Will Smith and Tom Cruise have the pick of the blockbuster movies so I don't blame them for making those movies as they probably wouldn't get made without those guys.

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Old 05-20-2013, 12:39 PM   #204
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

Going back to Eddie Murphy, he was in this place in the 80s. Every studio would literally give up their firstborn to do a vehicle starring him back then in that era. They were mostly action comedies, but he was bankable.

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Old 05-20-2013, 12:39 PM   #205
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Im not saying that Will isnt a serious actor. He's done great dramatic work. Im saying I wish he did more of that in addition to different types of roles

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Old 05-20-2013, 12:40 PM   #206
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Right now the only black actor who really rakes in money worldwide is Will Smith and maybe Denzel. I don't mean just in America, I mean international to boot. There is no black actor right now aside from those two who, if he was top billed in a flick would be a guaranteed blockbuster. If Elba gets to the point more power to the brother, but he ain't there yet.
Jamie Foxx after Django Unchained is a global star.

We'll see how much pull he really has when White House Down is released.

I'm not saying I'd want him for Black Panther but he is one of the few black actors with real star power.

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Old 05-20-2013, 12:41 PM   #207
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

Yeah, Jamie had a lull for a minute but seems to be back in demand after Django. That Oscar didn't do ****.

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Old 05-20-2013, 12:43 PM   #208
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Im still hoping that The Butler helps Forest Whitaker come back

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Old 05-20-2013, 12:49 PM   #209
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Because making them isolationist will be, itself, a mistake? Having them come off as self-righteous *******s who sit in their secret elf village without a care for anyone else will not sell them to the audience.
Do you realize how much of Africa's problems today are the direct result of imperialism and colonization?

Anyone with any knowledge of the modern problems of Africa will completely accepting of an African nation being isolationist in a fictional or non-fictional context.

It's better to be "self-righteous" than be corrupt, exploited, repressed, and unstable like many African nations post-colonization.

Anyone who feels resisting imperialism is arrogant or self-righteous has no understanding of the true nature of imperialism and should have no input for a Black Panther movie, comic book, cartoon or even a Black Panther coloring book.


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Old 05-20-2013, 01:08 PM   #210
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Why do they have to be white super villains?

Klaw [who was white] is his first foe, and Man-Ape [who is black] a close second. I know I've seen other black villains in Panther stories but their names escape me.

The LAST thing a Panther movie needs to be is a black vs. white thing.
Why can't one or two of the villains be white?

I've watched Blade many times and never have I thought to myself, "yeah, kill that blue eyed devil!". Blade fights Frost because Frost is the leader of vampires who prey on innocent humans. It has nothing to do with race.

Why does a Black Panther movie have to appease people who are irrational when it comes to racial matters?

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Old 05-20-2013, 02:13 PM   #211
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Why can't one or two of the villains be white?

I've watched Blade many times and never have I thought to myself, "yeah, kill that blue eyed devil!". Blade fights Frost because Frost is the leader of vampires who prey on innocent humans. It has nothing to do with race.

Why does a Black Panther movie have to appease people who are irrational when it comes to racial matters?
That

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Old 05-20-2013, 02:19 PM   #212
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Do you realize how much of Africa's problems today are the direct result of imperialism and colonization?

Anyone with any knowledge of the modern problems of Africa will completely accepting of an African nation being isolationist in a fictional or non-fictional context.

It's better to be "self-righteous" than be corrupt, exploited, repressed, and unstable like many African nations post-colonization.

Anyone who feels resisting imperialism is arrogant or self-righteous has no understanding of the true nature of imperialism and should have no input for a Black Panther movie, comic book, cartoon or even a Black Panther coloring book.
People who have no understanding of the true nature of imperialism are the target audience, and thus, have a great deal of input on the Black Panther movie. This is part of the challenge of realizing the character. Their premise involves drawing a hard stance against something most people don't know anything about, so it just comes off as mistreating white people, being arrogant and self-righteous. So the film has to educate the audience on imperialism without sounding preaching or doing too much exposition, or take a different tack.

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Why does a Black Panther movie have to appease people who are irrational when it comes to racial matters?
Because the vast majority of people are irrational, one way or another, when it comes to racial matters. That's part of why Blade had a close white mentor, and quickly showed bad guy black vampires. There's good and bad whites and good and bad blacks, generally removes race from the conversation.

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Old 05-20-2013, 02:53 PM   #213
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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People who have no understanding of the true nature of imperialism are the target audience, and thus, have a great deal of input on the Black Panther movie. This is part of the challenge of realizing the character. Their premise involves drawing a hard stance against something most people don't know anything about, so it just comes off as mistreating white people, being arrogant and self-righteous. So the film has to educate the audience on imperialism without sounding preaching or doing too much exposition, or take a different tack.
Isolationism doesn't necessarily have to look like arrogance or racism. People are isolationist for all kinds of reasons. Some people don't like nation building , others don't like war, and then some still oppose any form of conquest.

It can be very clear how reasonable isolationism can be if the villains pretend to want diplomacy but are revealed to really be after vibranium.

Basically give the audience a beginner course on why imperialism sucks.

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Because the vast majority of people are irrational, one way or another, when it comes to racial matters. That's part of why Blade had a close white mentor, and quickly showed bad guy black vampires. There's good and bad whites and good and bad blacks, generally removes race from the conversation.
Yeah, I have no problem with multi-racial heroes and villains to remove any racist connotation.

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Old 05-20-2013, 03:01 PM   #214
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Why can't one or two of the villains be white?

I've watched Blade many times and never have I thought to myself, "yeah, kill that blue eyed devil!". Blade fights Frost because Frost is the leader of vampires who prey on innocent humans. It has nothing to do with race.

Why does a Black Panther movie have to appease people who are irrational when it comes to racial matters?
Not sure what your point is here?

The first villain I mentioned - and the Panther's first villain - was a white guy, Klaw. Someone else suggested he should fight a few white villains, I was suggesting he pull from his history which includes villains of various races.

I don't care what color his villains are, I just don't think they should be villains because they are white. That's not what the Panther is about.

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Old 05-20-2013, 04:40 PM   #215
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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People who have no understanding of the true nature of imperialism are the target audience, and thus, have a great deal of input on the Black Panther movie. This is part of the challenge of realizing the character. Their premise involves drawing a hard stance against something most people don't know anything about, so it just comes off as mistreating white people, being arrogant and self-righteous. So the film has to educate the audience on imperialism without sounding preaching or doing too much exposition, or take a different tack.
I don't think the general audience is that dumb that they don't understand what Imperialism is. There is no quantum science to it, its really simple they have something we want so we are going to take it because we think we have the right to. They've seen it in Dancing with Wolves, the Last Samurai, Last of the Mohicans and recently Avatar but in those movies the hero was white so the whole things gets looked over. Most people are gonna see it for what it as an entertaining movie and nothing more. There is too much over thinking with Black Panther.

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Old 05-20-2013, 06:23 PM   #216
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I don't think the general audience is that dumb that they don't understand what Imperialism is. There is no quantum science to it, its really simple they have something we want so we are going to take it because we think we have the right to. They've seen it in Dancing with Wolves, the Last Samurai, Last of the Mohicans and recently Avatar but in those movies the hero was white so the whole things gets looked over. Most people are gonna see it for what it as an entertaining movie and nothing more. There is too much over thinking with Black Panther.
Yep. Of course there should be some thought to the creation of a BP movie, but I think some people look too hard into it. Us comic fans give the average moviegoer far too much credit in terms of how they assess a movie. If it's fun and takes them for a ride they won't care much about little details unless they're a fan of the genre. Yeah, there are some people that would nitpick every little thing because it's a black character with a lot of power, but they aren't as big of an audience as one might think.

Besides, if BP had a cameo in an Avengers movie where he has a good fight with Iron Man or Cap after infiltrating the Avengers Tower the fans would be clamoring for him like crazy. Something like his EMH battle with the Avengers would have the average person dying to see a Black Panther movie.

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Old 05-20-2013, 06:25 PM   #217
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Yep. Of course there should be some thought to the creation of a BP movie, but I think some people look too hard into it. Us comic fans give the average moviegoer far too much credit in terms of how they assess a movie. If it's fun and takes them for a ride they won't care much about little details unless they're a fan of the genre. Yeah, there are some people that would nitpick every little thing because it's a black character with a lot of power, but they aren't as big of an audience as one might think.

Besides, if BP had a cameo in an Avengers movie where he has a good fight with Iron Man or Cap after infiltrating the Avengers Tower the fans would be clamoring for him like crazy. Something like his EMH battle with the Avengers would have the average person dying to see a Black Panther movie.
this....BP is gonna be a regular Marvel movie....it will be about race and isolationism as much as Captain America was about nazism and war...things Cap glossed over

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Old 05-20-2013, 07:17 PM   #218
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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Not sure what your point is here?

The first villain I mentioned - and the Panther's first villain - was a white guy, Klaw. Someone else suggested he should fight a few white villains, I was suggesting he pull from his history which includes villains of various races.

I don't care what color his villains are, I just don't think they should be villains because they are white. That's not what the Panther is about.
I'm sorry, but I'm not following you. Panther's white villains are not villains because they are white. They are villains because they do villainous things.

Now sometimes those villainous things have been tied to white racism. And I applaud the efforts of previous Panther writers to address apartheid and other examples of racism.

That being said, if Klaw is his archenemy then he will likely be getting the nod for first villain in any Panther film. But similar to what Roach said the history of colonialism, imperialism, and racism will be ignored or glossed over. At best you might get a hint of it, but if it is Klaw as the villain he will likely have a black henchmen or henchwoman to assist him to obfuscate any charges or feeling of anti-white bias.

With Captain America they went so far as to remove swastikas from Red Skull's armband and the Nazis are an acknowledged and acceptable racist enemy that has been featured in countless works of fiction. Depicting the history of colonialism is on much shakier ground, in murkier territory and I couldn't see Marvel going anywhere near that in a movie.

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Old 05-20-2013, 07:24 PM   #219
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

If they touch on the outsider conspiring to get Wakanda's vibranium supply they will be addressing imperialism.

It's not really a big deal.

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Old 05-20-2013, 07:39 PM   #220
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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If they touch on the outsider conspiring to get Wakanda's vibranium supply they will be addressing imperialism.

It's not really a big deal.
that will probably be about as far as they take it too...this is gonna be as mindless as the other Marvel movies

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Old 05-20-2013, 08:02 PM   #221
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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I'm sorry, but I'm not following you. Panther's white villains are not villains because they are white. They are villains because they do villainous things.

Now sometimes those villainous things have been tied to white racism. And I applaud the efforts of previous Panther writers to address apartheid and other examples of racism.

That being said, if Klaw is his archenemy then he will likely be getting the nod for first villain in any Panther film. But similar to what Roach said the history of colonialism, imperialism, and racism will be ignored or glossed over. At best you might get a hint of it, but if it is Klaw as the villain he will likely have a black henchmen or henchwoman to assist him to obfuscate any charges or feeling of anti-white bias.

With Captain America they went so far as to remove swastikas from Red Skull's armband and the Nazis are an acknowledged and acceptable racist enemy that has been featured in countless works of fiction. Depicting the history of colonialism is on much shakier ground, in murkier territory and I couldn't see Marvel going anywhere near that in a movie.
Exactly - see, you are following me..

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Old 05-20-2013, 08:05 PM   #222
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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that will probably be about as far as they take it too...this is gonna be as mindless as the other Marvel movies
I don't think the Mandarin having the relationship he had with the military industry was mindless.

Everyone seems to think the Mandarine was just one big joke but there was actually a subversive message about the War on Terrorism.

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Old 05-20-2013, 08:28 PM   #223
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

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If they touch on the outsider conspiring to get Wakanda's vibranium supply they will be addressing imperialism.

It's not really a big deal.
I feel that way abot a lot about what's being discussed. Some people bring up some good points but a lot of others have me really scratching my head
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that will probably be about as far as they take it too...this is gonna be as mindless as the other Marvel movies
I wouldnt say mindless but I think I get what youre saying. I like all the Marvel movies to an extent, but theyre not extremely deep, philosophical, cerebral movies and it's weird coming into this thread and people are looking so deep into making a BP film.

--------------------------------------------------

Reposting cast for a proposed first film

T'Challa/Black Panther - Chadwick Boseman


Everett K Ross - John Gallanger Jr.


Monica Lynne - Jessica Lucas


T'Chaka - Denzel Washington


Klaw - Christoph Waltz


Zuri - Djimon Honsou (I think back in the day he wouldve made a great BP, so I would like him to have a role in the film even if it's not as T'Challa)


N'Gassi - Danny Glover


Zuri - Keke Palmer


Captain America - Chris Evans (cameo/flashback)


Nick Fury - Samuel L Jackson (cameo)


I think that cast has a good blend of up and comers (Boseman, Gallanger Jr, Lucas) along with Oscar nominees/winners (Washington, Waltz, Honsou) and respected actors (Glover)

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Old 05-20-2013, 09:18 PM   #224
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

I'm with roach Marvel movies are pretty mindless they glance over any subject that could considered provactive like Tony's drinking, Nazis and Mandarin.

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Old 05-20-2013, 09:39 PM   #225
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

I call them mindless and really should have picked a better word but they simple gloss over deep aspects of the characters and the MCU. Sure there is a commentary on the War on Terror but lately that seems to be the go to theme in movies recently. Cap didn't go too deep into WW2 other than to fight Nazis and Hydra. Thor is the biggest offender. An alien/god is walking around and it doesn't mess with anyone's world view. Imagine if Zeus appeared in your neighborhood...with powers and abilities. If you were an atheist wouldnt this change your view? If you were a christian wouldnt that change your view?

Now I know expecting all that in a superhero movie is a little bit much but the point I am trying to make is that Marvel doesnt dig to deep into the 'why' and just lets their heroes cut loose.....so why shouldnt we expect the same of Black Panther? It's not going to be a deep conversation on race or isolationism. It's gonna be BP punching and kicking his way through bad guys.

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