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Old 04-14-2013, 05:42 PM   #1
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Default The Oppressive Growing Police State

I wanted to make thread for incidents where police officers get out of line in oppressing law abiding citizens.

I think its obvious most accounts will come from New York City. This case makes my blood boil.

http://news.yahoo.com/bait-nypd-anti...151905239.html

NYPD create an elaborate sting operation where undercover cop acts like a criminal fleeing a bait car on foot. A Bronx woman with child looks inside car, but according to suit didn't touch anything, was pushed to the ground at gun point at hauled to police station.

Apparently officers also leave around wallets, ipods, etc.. around on subways waiting to arrest someone who picks them up. Ridiculous. Props to judge in throwing out this case.

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Old 04-14-2013, 05:49 PM   #2
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

Let me make this very clear....this WILL NOT, I repeat, WILL NOT become a police bashing thread, we have some very respected police officers that post with us on the hype, and a couple of them spend time here in this particular forum.

Keep the facts straight...because if I see it going the way of a bash thread, I will shut it down.

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Old 04-14-2013, 06:16 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

US DOJ wants to spend more on prisons than national security

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/04/11/56602.htm

WASHINGTON (CN) - President Obama's proposed 2014 budget for the Department of Justice will spend $4.1 billion more on prisons than on "national security," the Justice Department revealed Wednesday.
Attorney General Eric Holder on Wednesday released the proposed 2014 budget for the Department of Justice: $27.6 billion - $1.6 billion less than the FY 2013 Justice budget, due to sequestration.
President Obama's proposal for the Justice Department is up 3 percent from the FY 2012 proposal, but less than this year's budget, the Department of Justice said in a statement.
According to the Justice Department statement, the proposal includes:
$8.5 billion for federal prisons and detention;
$4.4 billion for national security;
$395.1 million for (undefined) protection from gun violence;
$92.6 million enhancement for cyber security;
$55 million increase for investigating and prosecuting financial and mortgage fraud;
$25 million increase for immigration enforcement;
$258.6 million for civil rights;
$2.3 billion in assistance to state, local and tribal law enforcement;
$561.4 million in federal program offsets and rescissions.
Holder called the last item "efficiencies," required by the budget sequestration.

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Old 04-15-2013, 02:43 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

I love that the second post in the police state thread is a threat.

The social commentary writes itself.

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Old 04-15-2013, 02:45 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

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Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
I love that the second post in the police state thread is a threat.

The social commentary writes itself.
Do you view all rules as threats?

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Old 04-15-2013, 02:48 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

Police are just doing their jobs..

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Old 04-15-2013, 02:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

Not necessarily. Just the ones written in bold with a threat at the end.

I was just noting my amusement at the irony.

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Old 04-15-2013, 02:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

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Do you view all rules as threats?
I just searched the rules and couldn't find a rule that forbade police bashing. Maybe you could point me to it?

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Old 04-15-2013, 02:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

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I love that the second post in the police state thread is a threat.

The social commentary writes itself.
I see not lumping all policemen who put their lives to protect you in with sadists and bullies as a matter of basic decency.

Unfortunately, some don't understand that, so that's why we have to keep an eye on these kinds of threads.

No one is saying you can't criticize police corruption and brutality. But don't paint everyone with the same brush.

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Old 04-15-2013, 03:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

Alright fair enough.

But let's not pretend that police are putting their lives on the line to protect me or you. It's a service they provide in return for money, and other benefits. I'm rather weary of all this hero worship of police, soldiers, and anyone else who gets paid for armed protection / service.

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Old 04-15-2013, 03:14 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

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Alright fair enough.

But let's not pretend that police are putting their lives on the line to protect me or you. It's a service they provide in return for money, and other benefits. I'm rather weary of all this hero worship of police, soldiers, and anyone else who gets paid for armed protection / service.
So in your ideal world policemen would put there lives on the line for free?

You do realize right that it is possible to desire to protect others AND to need to put food on the table for your family? Its possible to have more than one motivation for things. But no, the world is black and white to you, and police are greedy non-heroes.

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Old 04-15-2013, 03:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

Police are not legally obligated to protect anyone, they merely respond, but if they fail to protect you, you cannot sue them for failing to do their job. They really have no obligation whatsoever to protect you or anyone else.

The fact they put their lives on the line comes with the territory, and that's what they are agreeing to when they decide to become police.

You live by the sword, you die by the sword..

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Old 04-15-2013, 03:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

I didn't say they were greedy. I think you're deliberately misinterpreting what I said. I don't blame anyone for wanting to get paid for their services. That's only fair. I am simply saying, don't expect me to praise you for it. Being a police officer does not make you a hero - or a villain, for that matter.

And since you ask, in my ideal world there would be no need for police.

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Old 04-15-2013, 04:42 PM   #14
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US DOJ wants to spend more on prisons than national security
I say if you want to make marijuana illegal, fine it instead of put people in jail. That should save the tax payer some cash(and infact turn it into a profit business)

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:21 PM   #15
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I didn't say they were greedy. I think you're deliberately misinterpreting what I said. I don't blame anyone for wanting to get paid for their services. That's only fair. I am simply saying, don't expect me to praise you for it. Being a police officer does not make you a hero - or a villain, for that matter.
Uh let's not mention the times the police arrest citizens for feeding the homeless or when they plant false evidence to innocent ones just to get done quickly with a case. Or the disgusting incidents of racism even in black police officers from their superiors. Ever wondered how can we prevent the murders, the rapes and the robberies from happening in the first place, cause the police in most cases arrives after the crime is committed so what's the point in that? Unless you have a policeman in every corner you don't get to save that many people.

But you can't except decency and righteousness in a society like this not from police not from anywhere else especially in hard economic times. Its just the way the system works.

I personally don't put the blame on the police, rather on the ones who make the unfair socioeconomic rules and pull the strings behind the scenes.

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And since you ask, in my ideal world there would be no need for police.
Totally agreed. But to achieve that you would need also to have money out of the equation. Otherwise some form of a police will always have to exist.


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Old 04-15-2013, 10:31 PM   #16
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

Would human nature allow that ideal, though?

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

I sure hope people won't be wielding clubs in the future. But I share your skepticism.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:49 PM   #18
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Would human nature allow that ideal, though?
Very easily actually. Love and compassion are in human nature, it's just the struggle for survival and the unequal structure of the global economic system that forces us to act hostile against one another. Take away the money and the ownership and you already have in place a much safer and stabilized world and not the need for police at all.


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Old 04-15-2013, 10:53 PM   #19
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And then we'll all happily ride unicorns into the sunset.

I just don't see that happening. Not unless, humans very slowly, gradually, evolve to be less greedy and violent. Could happen, but then they wouldn't be humans anymore.

I see police as a necessary evil (pardon the expression).

Like it or not, modern humanity needs someone to keep the order forcefully. I just wish it could be done in a more sophisticated manner than is often the case.

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Old 04-15-2013, 11:04 PM   #20
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And then we'll all happily ride unicorns into the sunset.
No, not at all lol. There is no such thing as a perfect world of course. We will always be facing problems of some kind. As i said "Take away the money and the ownership and you already have in place a much safer (not a perfect) and stabilized world"

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I just don't see that happening. Not unless, humans very slowly, gradually, evolve to be less greedy and violent. Could happen, but then they wouldn't be humans anymore.
Um, the Indians in America and Aboriginals were not at all people you could call "greedy" and were very much in line and living in balance with nature. Until the white men came with their materialistic culture and monetary quests and destroyed them in the process.
I mean are you so certain of the human nature that you would consider yourself as greedy and violent?

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I see police as a necessary evil (pardon the expression).

Like it or not, modern humanity needs someone to keep the order forcefully. I just wish it could be done in a more sophisticated manner than is often the case.
Of course that's what i am saying too. But what you wish for can never happen unfortunately. It hasn't been done in a more sophisticated manner for many hundreds of years that the police is operating in the world. What makes you think it will happen in the future? They are even inventing private prisons particularly in the U.S. which profit from the number of prisoners they raise.


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Old 04-15-2013, 11:14 PM   #21
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Default Re: The Oppressive Growing Police State

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Um, the Indians in America and Aboriginals were not at all people you could call "greedy" and were very much in line and living in balance with nature. Until the white men came with their materialistic culture and monetary quests and destroyed them in the process.
I mean are you so certain of the human nature that you would consider yourself as greedy and violent as all the other humans as you call them?
That is so very much not true. Empires like the Aztecs and the Inca were every bit as bad as those in Eurasia. That's why the Spanish had no problems finding allies to help conquer them. All throughout the Americas various nations were killing each other for millenia before the Europeans got there.

What destroyed the natives was disease, not the materialistic culture of the Europeans.


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Old 04-15-2013, 11:18 PM   #22
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This is getting a bit broad, but you may have an overly idealistic view of Native Americans. Just read about Cahokia sometime. The Indians had all the flaws Europeans had. Greed, violence (human sacrifices, anyone?). They waged war and genocide on each other as well.

Humanity is no prize. And I certainly am no saint. I am greedy and violent when I need to be.

I see it less in idealistic terms (like say Marx), and recognize humanity more for what it is, a pack of apes. For better or worse, we're self-glorified chimps. We share all their follies, and then some. But we are at least, theoretically, capable of self-reflection and self-imprvement (though I suppose the chimps are capable of that too).

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Old 04-15-2013, 11:21 PM   #23
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That is so very much not true. Empires like the Aztecs and the Inca were every bit as bad as those in Eurasia. That's why the Spanish had no problems finding allies to help conquer them. All throughout the Americas various nations were killing each other for millenia before the Europeans got there.
Yes i agree with that. They even did blood sacrifices. The difference however is that this is a sick religious psychosis that was imposed by the higher authorities of their respective empires. Also the killing among the tribes was necessary in some cases for one group to survive over another due to the lack of recourses. And its not like every day they were killing one another.

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What destroyed the natives was disease, not the materialistic culture of the Europeans.
Are you 100% certain about this?

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Old 04-15-2013, 11:27 PM   #24
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I'd venture to say disease caused at least 70% of the deaths. European agronomy in the New World (unintentionally) also caused starvation and malnutrition, especially in South America.

The notions that Europeans physically killed the majority of Indians is rather discredited. Not for a lack of trying though. But if you look at the wars of the 17th century, you see that Indians and Europeans were fairly evenly matched.

While there was certainly no lack of cruelty (especially from the Spanish), most Indians died from disease, and other unintended causes. The Spanish even complained about it, because they wanted to use them as slaves.

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Old 04-15-2013, 11:28 PM   #25
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This is getting a bit broad, but you may have an overly idealistic view of Native Americans. Just read about Cahokia sometime. The Indians had all the flaws Europeans had. Greed, violence (human sacrifices, anyone?). They waged war and genocide on each other as well.
It's like the movie Cloud of Atlas everything is interconnected through the ages
I know those facts but i still view them as more noble and inoccent than the "civilized" white man.

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Humanity is no prize. And I certainly am no saint. I am greedy and violent when I need to be.

I see it less in idealistic terms (like say Marx), and recognize humanity more for what it is, a pack of apes. For better or worse, we're self-glorified chimps. We share all their follies, and then some. But we are at least, theoretically, capable of self-reflection and self-imprvement (though I suppose the chimps are capable of that too).
No one is a saint of course. But we don't act greedy and violent for no reason or to get pleasure just by watching others suffering that's why i believe we are forced to behave that way or like a pack of apes as you mentioned in order to survive in an ever growing materialistic society. Good points though. And just so there are no wrong impressions i am not of an Indian background or something like that.


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