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Old 05-23-2013, 12:27 AM   #301
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

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They don't need to be in a shared universe but it is a nice bonus .
Ehhhhhhhh.....I guess....lol.

The heroes the MCU have used though, it's smart to have a cinematic universe because those heroes don't have worthwhile rogue galleries except for only a very few villains here and there so in that aspect, it works to have a shared universe where it's all mixed together and there isn't a feeling of a hero having real self-contained stories. That should be changed IF Spider-Man ever gets on board.

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From the way I see it, the proper way to do a shared universe is by focusing on each individual superhero and his/her part of the universe with no sort of Avengers or Justice League setups whatsoever. The solo movies should come first and be their own stories while the big superhero team-up should be the big bonus at the end if all of the solo films are successful.

I blame Marvel for creating the idea that you can't have a shared universe with self-contained stories and that shared universes somehow limit originality. This is false. A shared universe simply means these stories exist in the same universe. There is no reason why you can't have a Batman or Superman movie that focuses just on their respective side of the DC mythos but still take place in the same universe. Technically speaking, all 3 stories that occurred in the Nolan films could have occurred in a shared universe (and I'm talking about just the stories here - I'm ignoring the realism). You wouldn't really have to do any major changes other than discarding the 8 year gap and the ending of TDKR.

I really hope WB realizes this and doesn't just turn all their solo films into JL setups. They will have a far superior universe to Marvel's if they put the solos before JL, let them tell a whole story as opposed to turning them into JL promos, and then have the big JL film as the big bonus at the end.
Agree with the idea that there should be self-contained stories. But I disagree that you should discard the realism. If, say, Batman became the very first superhero in WB's DC universe then that could help Superman when he shows up, so now the question is "There are aliens among us" and not "There are heroes among us" because Batman was that first hero. It would be like Iron Man where things are at a realistic viewpoint until you start seeing gods(in this case, aliens).

But, I don't really want Nolan's trilogy to be apart of some expanded universe anyways. As I've said many times, we need to see a more comic-like Batman that's akin to the "Batgod" when he's surrounded by so many god-like superheroes in the Justice League.

If you want to place Nolan's Batman in anything when he's this simple man that isn't the greatest or smartest at every single thing, then I could see him being used in a World's Finest film of this flawed hero teaming with a flawless god-like Kryptonian.

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Old 05-23-2013, 07:11 AM   #302
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

I think this should answer some questions/ideas about whether we'll see Nolan's Batman again.

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Old 05-23-2013, 05:19 PM   #303
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

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The theatre shooting?
Not only that, but Nolan passing up the moola he would've gotten had he made the movie for 3D.

The reason the whole "Avengers vs TDKR" argument fizzled is because ultimately the two films weren't on even playing field. Avengers had everything going for it, while TDKR handicapped itself BO-wise and had to deal with the Aurora shooting.

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Old 05-23-2013, 05:30 PM   #304
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

I really doubt the Aurora shootings had that big of an impact on TDKR's box office results. The movie still made over $1 billion and even slightly more than TDK did.

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Old 05-23-2013, 05:36 PM   #305
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

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Ehhhhhhhh.....I guess....lol.

The heroes the MCU have used though, it's smart to have a cinematic universe because those heroes don't have worthwhile rogue galleries except for only a very few villains here and there so in that aspect, it works to have a shared universe where it's all mixed together and there isn't a feeling of a hero having real self-contained stories. That should be changed IF Spider-Man ever gets on board.

Agree with the idea that there should be self-contained stories. But I disagree that you should discard the realism. If, say, Batman became the very first superhero in WB's DC universe then that could help Superman when he shows up, so now the question is "There are aliens among us" and not "There are heroes among us" because Batman was that first hero. It would be like Iron Man where things are at a realistic viewpoint until you start seeing gods(in this case, aliens).

But, I don't really want Nolan's trilogy to be apart of some expanded universe anyways. As I've said many times, we need to see a more comic-like Batman that's akin to the "Batgod" when he's surrounded by so many god-like superheroes in the Justice League.

If you want to place Nolan's Batman in anything when he's this simple man that isn't the greatest or smartest at every single thing, then I could see him being used in a World's Finest film of this flawed hero teaming with a flawless god-like Kryptonian.
Why wouldn't it work if you had guys like Batman and Superman existing in the same universe? You don't have to even establish that they're in the same universe until Justice League. That's essentially my point. A Batman or Superman franchise in a shared universe can be just as self-contained as a Batman or Superman franchise that's not in a shared universe.

I specifically said that I was just talking about the stories in the Nolan films and not the realism or the tone. You could've easily had the same stories take place in a shared universe that wasn't as realistic and had a more professional Batman. I'm also not arguing that the Nolan movies should be in the shared universe. Just that they wouldn't have been any better or worse if Nolan decided to make his Batman fit in a shared universe from the beginning.

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Old 05-23-2013, 05:42 PM   #306
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

I'm saying it could work, lol, just that I don't want to see it because I think within a Justice League where there are god-like superheroes, we need to see the more "Batgod" of the comics, not a flawed Bruce Wayne that is shown in Nolan's trilogy(although, like I mentioned, I could see Nolan's Batman being only in a World's Finest film where it's only him, a human being superhero, with an alien. I can take that more than Nolan's Batman being stuck within a group of five or six god-like heroes).

But, I too think the Aurora shooting did have an impact in a negative light to TDKR. While it didn't take a lot of financial success away from the film, I think it did take some at least for the couple few weeks while people were still afraid to see movies again at the theatre. And also, when it came to awards season, however much someone doesn't like the film...for a film that received so many spots in Top Ten lists, it was sadly left out for many nominations it should have gotten. The film gives off a vibe of remembering that shooting.


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Old 05-29-2013, 12:03 PM   #307
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It's early to tell, but i already saw Iron Man 3 and, while the first one was incredibly good and the third one starts very well, it didn't live to my expectations. Now, so far everything I've seen of MoS looks great, but whether it'll be as good as it feels now is to be seen.


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Not only that, but Nolan passing up the moola he would've gotten had he made the movie for 3D.

The reason the whole "Avengers vs TDKR" argument fizzled is because ultimately the two films weren't on even playing field. Avengers had everything going for it, while TDKR handicapped itself BO-wise and had to deal with the Aurora shooting.
I think I remember many fans thought the shooting was going to do nothing against the BO.

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Old 05-29-2013, 12:49 PM   #308
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Old 05-29-2013, 04:31 PM   #309
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

Isn't it a little premature to compare the two?

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Old 05-29-2013, 05:51 PM   #310
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Isn't it a little premature to compare the two?
Doesn't even matter. I told people on the Iron Man boards when MoS comes out be prepared for an onslaught of how much better MoS was than Iron Man 3. Heaven forbid anyone like both films.

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Old 05-29-2013, 05:55 PM   #311
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

I don't even think I can be involved in those kinds of discussions.

I mean, people who have no particular bias for Iron Man or Man of Steel... their opinions on which one is better will be interested.

But I was always going to love MOS more, if they get it even remotely right.

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Old 05-31-2013, 02:49 AM   #312
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My old college roommate is the GM at my local theater and they refunded 150 TDKR tickets on opening day due to the shooting. People are naive if they think it didn't hurt B.O. numbers.

I'm not much of a Superman fan, and I quite enjoyed IM3, but MoS looks like a much better film. I'm a Marvel guy, but if DC can keep the Nolans/Goyer producing group working on their films I'm going to be enjoying DC films better than Marvel's. I like all of the MCU films, but aside from The Avengers, each solo film is lacking something. They are held back from being great. Getting more people involve with these films that have stronger visions and more artistic sensibilities could go a long way in getting there. MCU has gotten some solid directors so I think it comes down to Marvel needs to give the directors more control. Whedon is the only guy who seemingly got pretty much 100% creative freedom and it payed off. The Avengers is easily their best film. They seemed to give Shane Black more creative freedom than some of the other guys, so maybe they are learning their lesson.

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Old 05-31-2013, 12:49 PM   #313
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

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My old college roommate is the GM at my local theater and they refunded 150 TDKR tickets on opening day due to the shooting. People are naive if they think it didn't hurt B.O. numbers.
I could see TDKR easily bringing in 1.2-1.3 billion at the box office if the shooting didn't happen.

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Old 05-31-2013, 03:30 PM   #314
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I don't think anyone is saying it didn't effect the box office. I live in the city where the shooting took place, and I saw first hand what happened. What is total B.S. is people like Ray Stubers who was predicting something like a 215M opening weekend, with everyone referencing the "20% sequel bump".

There were several of us and redfirebird who tracks Box office more than almost anyone on this site who said they were way overestimating. Avengers showed that you can come close to hitting maximum capacity on the theaters. No one called it because the theater tracking is based a lot on presales, and Avengers had an unprecedented amount of walkup business, so much that it crashed AMC's credit card system, which took hours to recover from.

I said 180M which was basically Avengers type business opening weekend, and it didn't get that. Now I don't know if my number might have been right or not, but there's no way in hell it was ever going to make 215 million without 3D price increase.

TDKR had a 2.8 multiplier, where TDK had a 3.3 multiplier. so yeah maybe it could have reached 1.2B WW, that's probably fair, but I doubt 1.3. Everyone pretty much agreed before the movie ever came out that it was not going to gross as much as TDK, but thought it would have a bigger opening weekend.

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Old 05-31-2013, 03:54 PM   #315
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I knew it would make more than TDK, and it did, although obviously not with inflation(at least I don't think).

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Old 06-01-2013, 12:30 AM   #316
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I don't think anyone is saying it didn't effect the box office. I live in the city where the shooting took place, and I saw first hand what happened. What is total B.S. is people like Ray Stubers who was predicting something like a 215M opening weekend, with everyone referencing the "20% sequel bump".

There were several of us and redfirebird who tracks Box office more than almost anyone on this site who said they were way overestimating. Avengers showed that you can come close to hitting maximum capacity on the theaters. No one called it because the theater tracking is based a lot on presales, and Avengers had an unprecedented amount of walkup business, so much that it crashed AMC's credit card system, which took hours to recover from.

I said 180M which was basically Avengers type business opening weekend, and it didn't get that. Now I don't know if my number might have been right or not, but there's no way in hell it was ever going to make 215 million without 3D price increase.

TDKR had a 2.8 multiplier, where TDK had a 3.3 multiplier. so yeah maybe it could have reached 1.2B WW, that's probably fair, but I doubt 1.3. Everyone pretty much agreed before the movie ever came out that it was not going to gross as much as TDK, but thought it would have a bigger opening weekend.
Oh don't get wrong, I don't think it would have made the ridiculous amounts the tracking claimed, but it would have been pretty close to The Avengers, with 3D sales voided.

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Old 06-02-2013, 08:12 AM   #317
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

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I like all of the MCU films, but aside from The Avengers, each solo film is lacking something.
The Avengers seems to be the best Marvel film and I was quite disappointed by certain solo films like Thor or Hulk. The difference between MOS and IM3 is that the second is a sequel. I saw that many people appreciate Iron Man more that IM3. I think that for MOS it will happen the same thing because it's new. Then, MOS trailers are better than IM3's IMO and the duo Snyder/Nolan certainly made an awesome movie that will surpass IM3 thanks to a smart combo: spectacular, great visual effects, emotions and good plot. So I vote for the best superhero.


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Old 06-03-2013, 01:08 AM   #318
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

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My old college roommate is the GM at my local theater and they refunded 150 TDKR tickets on opening day due to the shooting. People are naive if they think it didn't hurt B.O. numbers.
If we're just talking OW, then I agree. But I don't think it did anything in regards to the total grosses. I just don't see there being many people at all who because of that tragedy decided to forgo seeing the movie for it's entire run unless you happened to be personally connected to what happened in Aurora.

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Old 06-03-2013, 01:14 AM   #319
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The Avengers seems to be the best Marvel film and I was quite disappointed by certain solo films like Thor or Hulk. The difference between MOS and IM3 is that the second is a sequel. I saw that many people appreciate Iron Man more that IM3. I think that for MOS it will happen the same thing because it's new. Then, MOS trailers are better than IM3's IMO and the duo Snyder/Nolan certainly made an awesome movie that will surpass IM3 thanks to a smart combo: spectacular, great visual effects, emotions and good plot. So I vote for the best superhero.
Now you mention it, I don't even think these two movies have any point of comparison, but the year they were released.

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Old 06-05-2013, 12:19 PM   #320
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Believe me, I know many people who didnt go see TDKR in theaters because of the shooting.

I do think it would've out grossed Avengers had the shooting not occurred, but we'll never know.

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Old 06-05-2013, 03:43 PM   #321
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Believe me, I know many people who didnt go see TDKR in theaters because of the shooting.

I do think it would've out grossed Avengers had the shooting not occurred, but we'll never know.
No we do know it wouldn't have out grossed Avengers. As I pointed out to many people who refuse to look at facts, there are not enough screens and seating available to make up for the difference of the 3D price. TDKR might have had a chance to have a higher attendance than Avengers, but dollar wise it was never going to outgross it.

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Old 06-11-2013, 05:24 PM   #322
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No we do know it wouldn't have out grossed Avengers. As I pointed out to many people who refuse to look at facts, there are not enough screens and seating available to make up for the difference of the 3D price. TDKR might have had a chance to have a higher attendance than Avengers, but dollar wise it was never going to outgross it.
What do you mean?

If it had continued to pull in a large amount of money, I'm sure it would've stayed in theaters longer.

If Titanic can make 2 billion in 2d with undoubtedly less screens and seating, I think TDKR without the widespread backlash from the theater shooting could've beat the Avengers. I'm not saying it definitely would have, I'm just saying it could...or at least come close.

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Old 06-11-2013, 06:02 PM   #323
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

TDKR would not have outgrossed Avenger, even without the shooting.

Like I said, WB handicapped themselves when they threw away potential 3D money.

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Old 06-11-2013, 10:24 PM   #324
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Believe me, I know many people who didnt go see TDKR in theaters because of the shooting.

I do think it would've out grossed Avengers had the shooting not occurred, but we'll never know.
I don't think you can accurately judge how many people didn't see it due to that incident. I personally don't think it is a high number because it still did very well. But, I don't think you can be safe in saying enough did that would have changed the BO result.

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Old 06-12-2013, 11:28 AM   #325
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I don't think you can accurately judge how many people didn't see it due to that incident. I personally don't think it is a high number because it still did very well. But, I don't think you can be safe in saying enough did that would have changed the BO result.
It did well. It would've done well regardless of what happened, it was the follow-up to arguably the best superhero film of all time.

But I know a LOT of people who didnt see this movie because of it. I'm talking hundreds (including those saying they wouldn't go to the movies after that, those who said they'd just wait for the DVD etc.)

Most of the young people I know saw it anyway, but it took a massive hit with your run-of-the-mill older audience.

I know there were scores of people in a few cities that would've seen it had the shooting not happened, and unless that was an anomaly, I think it's safe to say that was the case across the US.

In order to make Avengers, Titanic, or Avatar money, you have to pull people who rarely go to the movies. The majority of those people will not go to the movies when a theater slaughter is fresh on their minds, no matter how anticipated the movie is.

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