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Old 07-31-2013, 06:09 PM   #251
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

The only thing odd in the third act of the Avengers is the like couple minute long sequence when everyone is suddenly losing. I know why they thought they needed it, but it doesn't work and makes little sense in the context of the film.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:10 PM   #252
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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There were too many plot holes in TDKR for me leading up to the final Batman/Bane fight. It was still pretty cool, but Avengers was just awesome. It was funny, the action was great, and it reminded of how fun the Death Star battle was to see in the original Star Wars.
Well yeah it was fun again I'm not denying this, Avengers has a decent third act but I was just using it as an example as something not without its issues either. The Wolverine just had more emotional weight to it due to some shocking moments like with Logans claws being destroyed and the final dream of Jean.

Again I'm not saying the third act is brilliant or as good as what came before but it really isnt any worse than what some other films have done, especially the Ironman films which seem to get more of a free pass on its third acts.

To be honest the third acts are usually the stumbling blocks for many a CBM.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:12 PM   #253
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The only thing odd in the third act of the Avengers is the like couple minute long sequence when everyone is suddenly losing. I know why they thought they needed it, but it doesn't work and makes little sense in the context of the film.
I really like that part with Cap alot. Also liked that they still had Thor beating the crap out of everyone.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:13 PM   #254
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I had never read any of the comics when I saw it (still haven't). The kid was pretty funny, but I thought movie was just stupid. I get that it was taking on the genre...but by the time I finished watching it, I wished that I'd just watched a superhero movie instead. I prefer that silliness.
How did you find it stupid exactly?

I think Kick-Ass is silly. Just rated-R silly. The writing reminds me of a young Tarantino. A young Tarantino that realized he didn't need extra long dialogue scenes for the sake of them.

And yeah there is only one Hit-Girl. The twisted reality of Robin and Bucky.

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Well yeah it was fun again I'm not denying this, Avengers has a decent third act but I was just using it as an example as something not without its issues either. The Wolverine just had more emotional weight to it due to some shocking moments like with Logans claws being destroyed and the final dream of Jean.

Again I'm not saying the third act is brilliant or as good as what came before but it really isnt any worse than what some other films have done, especially the Ironman films which seem to get more of a free pass on its third acts.

To be honest the third acts are usually the stumbling blocks for many a CBM.
Iron Man third acts are visually spectacular, and have fun and even smart dialogue. They are basic, but not poorly written outside of IM2. The Wolverine did everything wrong. Cutting off Logan's claws means nothing because everything going on around him is ridiculous. Everyone I went and saw the film with are still trying to figure out why Logan cut off the Samurai's head, and then tackled him.

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I really like that part with Cap alot. Also liked that they still had Thor beating the crap out of everyone.
Cap part is great. Still not sure what was happening with the Hulk. It is suppose to be the moment of no hope, but doesn't play like that at all. Hulk, Thor and Iron Man have the baddies all day.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:13 PM   #255
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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Agreed. Right when they had that team work shot of Ironman shooting Cap's Shield and then to all the other members working together it snagged the best final act for me. It just kept going and was very consistent imo.
And it was funny. I loved Cap convincing the cops to take his advice on clearing the street, and Hawkeye's backwards arrow shot, Hulk punching Thor (and his line when he got there, "Well, this looks terrible,"), the Hulk smash, and all of Tony's lines. I saw it in the theater four times last summer.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:17 PM   #256
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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The third act of Origins is horrible. But then they had the scenes with Kayla and it works. Those moments work. Not one moment in the final act of the Wolverine worked for me. Maybe the little quip when he finished the Samurai, but that is really it. I was shocked by how bad it was.
The woman who can only use her powers when your stood right next to her, sooooo everyone stands right next to her

Anyway what what worked for you, didnt for me and vice-versa so lets leave it at that.

Besides nice sig

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:18 PM   #257
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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How did you find it stupid exactly?

I think Kick-Ass is silly. Just rated-R silly. The writing reminds me of a young Tarantino. A young Tarantino that realized he didn't need extra long dialogue scenes for the sake of them.

And yeah there is only one Hit-Girl. The twisted reality of Robin and Bucky.
I only saw it once, when it first came out, and I watched it thinking that the dialogue was dumb, the characters were dumber, they were just copying a lot of things we'd seen in other movies (didn't it end with the one kid just repeating the Joker's line from Batman).

I get it. I get what they were doing and what the point of it was. I just didn't enjoy the movie.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:19 PM   #258
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The woman who can only use her powers when your stood right next to her, sooooo everyone stands right next to her

Anyway what what worked for you, didnt for me and vice-versa so lets leave it at that.

Besides nice sig
Well this film did have everyone avoiding shooting Logan in the head.

I get clan Yashida doing that, but the Yakuza wanted him dead. Tired plenty of times.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:21 PM   #259
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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Tony vs. Killian. After everything that came before, they found poignancy. I am still not sure how, but once Tony and Killian stare one another down, they had me completely. And then came the best hand to hand fight I had seen in a comic book film. Well, until MoS. Still, incredible really.

And the Wolverine doesn't escalate events. It just gets dumb. Not even visually, stunningly dumb. Just really, really dumb. I still can't believe that after the incredible Logan/Shingen showdown, all that took place after.
The fundamental events of The Wolverine had to happen in that way, though. Logan had to have a confrontation, the dastardly scheme had to be unveiled, and Yukio was of course going to have her confrontation as well.

I actually thought that Wolverine would die, so it gripped me. I began to think the midcredits scene might be his soul/consciousness meeting Xavier on the astral plane after death and then being sent back to a new body in the 70s.

While it did get a bit OTT with Viper, and the reveal of
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
the old man in the robo-suit
could be a bit of a stretch, it all worked for me.

With Man of Steel, the climax went a bit wrong.

After the baddies (all of them, we thought at the time) were sucked back into the negative zone, Superman started snogging Lois in the rubble rather than checking for trapped survivors in the decimated city. And then it turned out Zod was still around.

It felt like studio suits demanded a Supes/Zod showdown and so it all kicked off again, with more destruction, more skyscrapers being smashed to bits, no attempt by Superman to take the fight out of a populated area and avoid more death and devastation. It all felt like too much, it was overload. And then the death of Zod at the hands of Superman is questionable at best. It would have been better if Zod had also been sucked into the black hole and they left it there!

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:23 PM   #260
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And it was funny. I loved Cap convincing the cops to take his advice on clearing the street, and Hawkeye's backwards arrow shot, Hulk punching Thor (and his line when he got there, "Well, this looks terrible,"), the Hulk smash, and all of Tony's lines. I saw it in the theater four times last summer.
Yeah, I thought it balanced all that near perfection. I saw it four times as well. Can't remember any other film I went to that many times.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:23 PM   #261
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I only saw it once, when it first came out, and I watched it thinking that the dialogue was dumb, the characters were dumber, they were just copying a lot of things we'd seen in other movies (didn't it end with the one kid just repeating the Joker's line from Batman).

I get it. I get what they were doing and what the point of it was. I just didn't enjoy the movie.
It is more then fair not liking it. I just don't understand where it be "dumb" comes from. Not sure about the copying other things. The action and story are all fairly original. They do introduce moments that touch on the concept of superheroes (the secret identity, the kid side kick, the indestructibility etc.). But they do so in a way that questions it. Kinda of Monty Python in that way. And yes it ends with the Joker line, a play on the idea of the birth of a "super villain" after the world has "superheroes".

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:27 PM   #262
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Well this film did have everyone avoiding shooting Logan in the head.

I get clan Yashida doing that, but the Yakuza wanted him dead. Tired plenty of times.
What good would that do, he has an adamantium skull?

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:33 PM   #263
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The fundamental events of The Wolverine had to happen in that way, though. Logan had to have a confrontation, the dastardly scheme had to be unveiled, and Yukio was of course going to have her confrontation as well.
No, it didn't really need to happen that way at all. The writing is what dictates that a "dastardly scheme" must be unveiled and "Yukio" most fight Viper. Which really has no reason to to happen, as they weren't even rivals. It would have been like forcing a Catwoman/Talia fight into the finale of TDKR, just because they are both women.

Yukio had her moment. She saved Logan.

But the problem isn't the "dastardly scheme". It is about the execution of the final act. Viper is dubbed over and hamming it up, we have a big suit of armor for literally no reason, and just all around ridiculousness. Why does everyone have to talk in riddles?

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I actually thought that Wolverine would die, so it gripped me. I began to think the midcredits scene might be his soul/consciousness meeting Xavier on the astral plane after death and then being sent back to a new body in the 70s.
Never, for one moment, did I think Logan would die. Not with Yukio and Mariko right there.

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While it did get a bit OTT with Viper, and the reveal of
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
the old man in the robo-suit
could be a bit of a stretch, it all worked for me.
But does it work from a screenplay and film standpoint? I don't think so at all.

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With Man of Steel, the climax went a bit wrong.

After the baddies (all of them, we thought at the time) were sucked back into the negative zone, Superman started snogging Lois in the rubble rather than checking for trapped survivors in the decimated city. And then it turned out Zod was still around.

It felt like studio suits demanded a Supes/Zod showdown and so it all kicked off again, with more destruction, more skyscrapers being smashed to bits, no attempt by Superman to take the fight out of a populated area and avoid more death and devastation. It all felt like too much, it was overload. And then the death of Zod at the hands of Superman is questionable at best. It would have been better if Zod had also been sucked into the black hole and they left it there!
I have had the Superman/Zod conversation more then once. I'll just say this.Superman kissing Lois has almost no barring on "saving" anyone, Zod was gaining power at a rapid rate and thus couldn't simply be "removed" from the situation and it is possible the finest example of superhuman combat every put on scene.

And nope, the studio didn't ask for the Superman/Zod fight. That was all Snyder and Goyer. Same with the end of it.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:35 PM   #264
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What good would that do, he has an adamantium skull?
His body is covered in adamantium. That didn't change the fact that he could suddenly die. That a sword could go through him, and bullets kept going rather deep into his body. And considering X2, a bullet can go pretty far into his head. Now imagine the bullet in his head, without the healing factor.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:38 PM   #265
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No, it didn't really need to happen that way at all. The writing is what dictates that a "dastardly scheme" must be unveiled and "Yukio" most fight Viper. Which really has no reason to to happen, as they weren't even rivals. It would have been like forcing a Catwoman/Talia fight into the finale of TDKR, just because they are both women.

Yukio had her moment. She saved Logan.

But the problem isn't the "dastardly scheme". It is about the execution of the final act. Viper is dubbed over and hamming it up, we have a big suit of armor for literally no reason, and just all around ridiculousness. Why does everyone have to talk in riddles?
There was plenty of reasons for the big suit of armor, they were well explained.

More so than the end of Ironman or Ironman 2 which did feature big suits of armor for no reason.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:41 PM   #266
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

Actually, the adamantium was what kept the gunshot wounds from being worse. He was shot in the chest (more than once, I believe), and it was the metal in his ribs that kept the bullets from shattering bones or going further in when they did.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:43 PM   #267
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His body is covered in adamantium. That didn't change the fact that he could suddenly die. That a sword could go through him, and bullets kept going rather deep into his body. And considering X2, a bullet can go pretty far into his head. Now imagine the bullet in his head, without the healing factor.
Ok this my last post as I think we need to chill now.

A bullet to the head would leave a scar, a nasty one, but his adimantium skull would protect his brain so it makes more sense to shoot his body, hitting an artery if you wanted to kill him.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:45 PM   #268
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There was plenty of reasons for the big suit of armor, they were well explained.

More so than the end of Ironman or Ironman 2 which did feature big suits of armor for no reason.
No. Come on.

Ok I can understand letting the suit go. As ridiculous and unnecessary as it is, ok. But comparing it to Iron Man just shows a bias. First, Iron Man is about big suits of armor. The entire series is based around armored combat. The first film builds up to the Iron Monger. There is every reason for it to exist. Perfect build up that makes complete sense in the context of the film. But I will agree that IM2 doing Iron Monger 2.0 was ridiculous and very unnecessary and it suffered because of it.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Why do we need a half-assed Darth Vader in The Wolverine? Because we need a big action scene? A bad action scene nonetheless. It would have made a lot more sense to have him in some sort of chamber that was keeping him alive. Why he needed to go through the claws is never revealed and thus seems unneccessary. Why the claws? And still, if the claws, why does he need the suit of armor to cut them off? Logan can handle the heated sword without injury or problem. Why couldn't Viper?


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Actually, the adamantium was what kept the gunshot wounds from being worse. He was shot in the chest (more than once, I believe), and it was the metal in his ribs that kept the bullets from shattering bones or going further in when they did.
Yes, but his healing rate is slowed. I don't think it is gone completely. Hurt him enough, and he will die. He passed out from blood loss. Shoot him in the head.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:46 PM   #269
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There was plenty of reasons for the big suit of armor, they were well explained.

More so than the end of Ironman or Ironman 2 which did feature big suits of armor for no reason.
Yep. The plot all along was to keep Yashida alive via the suit, using Logan's healing factor. That's why they were after him in the first place. When he wouldn't give it to them, Viper poisoned him to weaken him, so Harada would be able to snatch him during the chaos at the funeral and bring him to Yashida.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:50 PM   #270
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Yep. The plot all along was to keep Yashida alive via the suit, using Logan's healing factor. That's why they were after him in the first place. When he wouldn't give it to them, Viper poisoned him to weaken him, so Harada would be able to snatch him during the chaos at the funeral and bring him to Yashida.
And thus the plot gets dumb. Including the suit is ridiculous. Wanting Logan's healing power, makes sense. Never really established how they would steal it, but fine, take it. But then you tie in the suit which is completely unnecessary.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:54 PM   #271
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No, it didn't really need to happen that way at all. The writing is what dictates that a "dastardly scheme" must be unveiled and "Yukio" most fight Viper. Which really has no reason to to happen, as they weren't even rivals. It would have been like forcing a Catwoman/Talia fight into the finale of TDKR, just because they are both women.

Yukio had her moment. She saved Logan.
Of course it needed to happen that way. We needed to find out what was really going on, how Logan's healing factor was going to be siphoned off.

And of course Yukio would always have a role of some kind in the climax. You don't have a character by Logan's side all through the movie and then just abandon them in the finale of the film. Her role was to stop Viper intervening any more in what was going on and to protect Wolverine as she had been doing all along.


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But the problem isn't the "dastardly scheme". It is about the execution of the final act. Viper is dubbed over and hamming it up, we have a big suit of armor for literally no reason, and just all around ridiculousness. Why does everyone have to talk in riddles?
Well, I agree they overdid the Viper stuff, but the armour clearly has a purpose. Two purposes in fact:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
keeping Yashida alive while he is in hiding and being the means to sever Logan's claws and drain his healing factor by force.



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Never, for one moment, did I think Logan would die. Not with Yukio and Mariko right there.
I really did think that either they would kill him off (so his consciousness would be sent back in time) or that his healing power would actually be removed (so he could die at the hands of a Sentinel in X-Men: DoFP).

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But does it work from a screenplay and film standpoint? I don't think so at all.
Some of it could be toned down (Viper) but the rest was fine, I thought.


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I have had the Superman/Zod conversation more then once. I'll just say this. Superman kissing Lois has almost no barring on "saving" anyone, Zod was gaining power at a rapid rate and thus couldn't simply be "removed" from the situation and it is possible the finest example of superhuman combat every put on scene.
Superman seemed more concerned on playing tonsil tennis with Lois than checking for survivors. It did seem odd.

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And nope, the studio didn't ask for the Superman/Zod fight. That was all Snyder and Goyer. Same with the end of it.
Hmmm. I'm not so sure that studio execs just stand back and don't demand anything in films of this scale. The Zod showdown felt grafted on. And also the decision to kill Zod was questionable - I can't quite see Goyer/Snyder's logic behind that. I think Nolan was right to say it went too far.

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Old 07-31-2013, 06:58 PM   #272
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And thus the plot gets dumb. Including the suit is ridiculous. Wanting Logan's healing power, makes sense. Never really established how they would steal it, but fine, take it. But then you tie in the suit which is completely unnecessary.
At the funeral, Yukio explained the Silver Samurai suit to Logan as something that would watch over Yashida forever (can't remember the exact lines, I'll check when I see it again tomorrow) forever. So Yashida had been obtaining adamantium, and had the suit built in its image. We never knew how they planned to extract Logan's healing factor because they didn't catch him until the end of the movie. The suit would be what kept him alive.

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Old 07-31-2013, 07:04 PM   #273
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At the funeral, Yukio explained the Silver Samurai suit to Logan as something that would watch over Yashida forever (can't remember the exact lines, I'll check when I see it again tomorrow) forever. So Yashida had been obtaining adamantium, and had the suit built in its image. We never knew how they planned to extract Logan's healing factor because they didn't catch him until the end of the movie. The suit would be what kept him alive.
Yes, and it was clearly established (and is generally well known) that Japan is a country rich in tradition and symbolism.

Mariko says to Logan that 'Everything here has meaning' when he (twice) does the wrong thing with the chopsticks.

Yashida's use of the Silver Samurai was an example of that symbolism and iconography.

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Old 07-31-2013, 07:07 PM   #274
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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Of course it needed to happen that way. We needed to find out what was really going on, how Logan's healing factor was going to be siphoned off.

And of course Yukio would always have a role of some kind in the climax. You don't have a character by Logan's side all through the movie and then just abandon them in the finale of the film. Her role was to stop Viper intervening any more in what was going on and to protect Wolverine as she had been doing all along.




Well, I agree they overdid the Viper stuff, but the armour clearly has a purpose. Two purposes in fact:
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keeping Yashida alive while he is in hiding and being the means to sever Logan's claws and drain his healing factor by force.
Let me try and explain. I'll use TDK as an example.

The plot of TDK dictates Batman and Gordon must confront Harvey at the end. Now how that plays out, that is the execution. They could have had a long, drawn out action sequence. Harvey could commit suicide. But Nolan decided on something that called on the night that Bruce lost his parents and the men's rooftop meeting at the start of the film. Something that emphasis how Harvey and Bruce are in the same position, while Gordon has his family to lose.

Logan needs to confront Viper and her boss and uncover the plot. He needs to save Mariko. This is true. How that plays out is completely up to execution and they fall completely off their rockers imo. Logan fighting a big "robot", Viper shedding skin, spitting everywhere, Mariko somehow learning to throw daggers like she is Hawkeye, the need to expose the claws, the waste of ninjas, Yukio showing up, etc. It doesn't simply feel like another movie. It just feels like a bad movie imo.

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Old 07-31-2013, 07:13 PM   #275
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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Let me try and explain. I'll use TDK as an example.

The plot of TDK dictates Batman and Gordon must confront Harvey at the end. Now how that plays out, that is the execution. They could have had a long, drawn out action sequence. Harvey could commit suicide. But Nolan decided on something that called on the night that Bruce lost his parents and the men's rooftop meeting at the start of the film. Something that emphasis how Harvey and Bruce are in the same position, while Gordon has his family to lose.

Logan needs to confront Viper and her boss and uncover the plot. He needs to save Mariko. This is true. How that plays out is completely up to execution and they fall completely off their rockers imo. Logan fighting a big "robot", Viper shedding skin, spitting everywhere, Mariko somehow learning to throw daggers like she is Hawkeye, the need to expose the claws, the waste of ninjas, Yukio showing up, etc. It doesn't simply feel like another movie. It just feels like a bad movie imo.
It's a matter of taste and opinion, of course.

But the Wolverine climax mostly worked for me. I did think they went OTT with Viper (hated her spitting green poison clouds but didn't mind her shedding skin as she healed herself).

I liked the rest, including Mariko using the severed claws (it was established earlier in the film she was an expert with knives). And I thought Yukio definitely had to show up.

I'd have preferred Viper to have escaped into the shadows and then see a final glimpse of her in the comic book version's black hair as she fled the country.

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