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Old 07-31-2013, 07:24 PM   #301
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They needed him secured. But of course he escaped the restraints.

And as for the claws, I presumed that it was to do with accessing the bone marrow (which is a key part of the human immune system and probably a key part of Wolverine's regenerative capability).

Evidently you didn't like the way it all played out, and that's fine - but I was okay with it (despite a bit too much Viper for my liking).
They didn't need him secure. They proved that. Now he bone marrow explanation makes good sense. I like that. Wish it was in the movie.

And it is cool that you are okay with. Different strokes, different folks.

Personally just wish it hadn't let the rest of the film down imo. They even did a love story I enjoyed.

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Old 07-31-2013, 07:24 PM   #302
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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None of this requires a mech built for combat.
It's better than two chambers where both characters are unconscious.

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His son did that part right. Put on the samurai armor to fight for "his honor". A cowardly man trying to hold onto some honor, who in the process lashes out and proves he has none.

Building a mech built specifically to rob Logan of his healing abilities, when the plan the entire time is to knock him out and take his healing ability is not. Especially when once you have those abilities, no one in the world will be able to harm you.

What part of this film screamed "super suit"? This isn't Iron Man.
The suit was needed to keep him alive. The suit was built with armor so it could break through the adamantium and extract Logan's healing factor, which would continue to power the suit (which at that point wasn't complete). It was built in the style of a warrior that protected his family, and his intent was to use it and stay alive so that he could protect Mariko and keep his company from being taken apart, which is what his son was planning to do once he was dead. It was meant to be a source of intimidation.

It was a very flawed plan, and he was an obsessed, foolish man. That's why his granddaughter turned on him, and why his plan ultimately failed.

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Old 07-31-2013, 07:26 PM   #303
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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None of this requires a mech built for combat.


His son did that part right. Put on the samurai armor to fight for "his honor". A cowardly man trying to hold onto some honor, who in the process lashes out and proves he has none.

Building a mech built specifically to rob Logan of his healing abilities, when the plan the entire time is to knock him out and take his healing ability is not. Especially when once you have those abilities, no one in the world will be able to harm you.

What part of this film screamed "super suit"? This isn't Iron Man.
I think Yashida would be very aware that it would be a real challenge to forcibly remove Wolverine's healing factor. He prepared himself for what would definitely be quite a fight. And it was. Yashida had to make himself virtually indestructible to stand against Wolverine, hence using adamantium to make the mecha.

It also continued the iconography of the Silver Samurai, which was given significance in the story as something that watched over the dead. It was watching over Yashida (presumed dead) and was planned to watch over Wolverine (as he died).

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Old 07-31-2013, 07:27 PM   #304
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They didn't need him secure. They proved that. Now he bone marrow explanation makes good sense. I like that. Wish it was in the movie.

And it is cool that you are okay with. Different strokes, different folks.

Personally just wish it hadn't let the rest of the film down imo. They even did a love story I enjoyed.
They did need him secure. That was the whole point of trying to weaken him. It's the only way they could capture him, and they even had trouble with that. Keeping him locked down assured that they could get at his claws, they couldn't leave it to chance in a fight. Even when the first set of claws came off, he still nearly got away, and the other set of claws came off when he was trapped again.

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Old 07-31-2013, 07:30 PM   #305
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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I think Yashida would be very aware that it would be a real challenge to forcibly remove Wolverine's healing factor. He prepared himself for what would definitely be quite a fight. And it was. Yashida had to make himself virtually indestructible to stand against Wolverine, hence using adamantium to make the mecha.

It also continued the iconography of the Silver Samurai, which was given significance in the story as something that watched over the dead. It was watching over Yashida (presumed dead) and was planned to watch over Wolverine (as he died).
There's even a little "throw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside" with the way it all finally ended.

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Old 07-31-2013, 07:31 PM   #306
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It's better than two chambers where both characters are unconscious.
Which is why I would have ditched most of the scenario. But it being better, debatable. More action orientated, yes.

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The suit was needed to keep him alive. The suit was built with armor so it could break through the adamantium and extract Logan's healing factor, which would continue to power the suit (which at that point wasn't complete). It was built in the style of a warrior that protected his family, and his intent was to use it and stay alive so that he could protect Mariko and keep his company from being taken apart, which is what his son was planning to do once he was dead. It was meant to be a source of intimidation.

It was a very flawed plan, and he was an obsessed, foolish man. That's why his granddaughter turned on him, and why his plan ultimately failed.
Actually, the didn't need the suit to break through the adamantium or to extract the healing factor. That is the point.

Now I don't remember them every saying it was going to power the suit. When did this happen?

Building it in the style of a warrior makes sense if you are going to try and do this "honorably". I might have actually dug that. A twisted, demented take on honor, but honor nevertheless. One on one battle for Logan's immortality.

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Old 07-31-2013, 07:37 PM   #307
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They did need him secure. That was the whole point of trying to weaken him. It's the only way they could capture him, and they even had trouble with that. Keeping him locked down assured that they could get at his claws, they couldn't leave it to chance in a fight. Even when the first set of claws came off, he still nearly got away, and the other set of claws came off when he was trapped again.
Logan needed to be saved. They could take it by force without securing him. They showed that.

But again, if the plan is to secure him, no need for the suit. That is what I am saying about the suit. If you are going to lock him down, you don't need a suit built for combat.

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I think Yashida would be very aware that it would be a real challenge to forcibly remove Wolverine's healing factor. He prepared himself for what would definitely be quite a fight. And it was. Yashida had to make himself virtually indestructible to stand against Wolverine, hence using adamantium to make the mecha.

It also continued the iconography of the Silver Samurai, which was given significance in the story as something that watched over the dead. It was watching over Yashida (presumed dead) and was planned to watch over Wolverine (as he died).
But at what point did they indicate that he have to stand against Logan? The entire plan is to not have that happen.

The Silver Samurai iconography is cool, but connecting it to the creation of the suit as a way to make it "less overdone" is off imo. It works thematically, but it is all kinds of contrived. His plan was never honorable once Logan said no.

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Old 07-31-2013, 07:54 PM   #308
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But at what point did they indicate that he have to stand against Logan? The entire plan is to not have that happen.
But this is Wolverine we are talking about. He survived the atom bomb. I'm sure Yashida was aware he'd have a fight on his hands. And he'd also need the suit to protect Mariko, who was also in danger.

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The Silver Samurai iconography is cool, but connecting it to the creation of the suit as a way to make it "less overdone" is off imo. It works thematically, but it is all kinds of contrived. His plan was never honorable once Logan said no.
They did mention the Silver Samurai as an icon at Yashida's funeral so it was obviously going to figure in the story (plus, we already know from the comic that it features in this tale).

Also, Mariko mentioned that 'everything has meaning' and this was a hint at a nation steeped in honour, tradition, symbolism. Yashida's notions of those things were self-centred, twisted and desperate but even 'evil' people often have a set of values and codes by which they justify their actions and work to some kind of plan.

I thought the film developed the concept of the Silver Samurai into something with more meaning and significance than just some comic book baddie in shining armour, or an Iron Man or Iron Monger rip-off. Plus, there's no way a regular-sized human could carry off that comic book image convincingly - they'd be too weighed down with that armour. By turning it into a mecha, it seemed more logical to me...

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Old 07-31-2013, 08:00 PM   #309
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But this is Wolverine we are talking about. He survived the atom bomb. I'm sure Yashida was aware he'd have a fight on his hands. And he'd also need the suit to protect Mariko, who was also in danger.



They did mention the Silver Samurai as an icon at Yashida's funeral so it was obviously going to figure in the story (plus, we already know from the comic that it features in this tale).

Also, Mariko mentioned that 'everything has meaning' and this was a hint at a nation steeped in honour, tradition, symbolism. Yashida's notions of those things were self-centred, twisted and desperate but even 'evil' people often have a set of values and codes by which they justify their actions and work to some kind of plan.

I thought the film developed the concept of the Silver Samurai into something with more meaning and significance than just some comic book baddie in shining armour, or an Iron Man or Iron Monger rip-off. Plus, there's no way a regular-sized human could carry off that comic book image convincingly - they'd be too weighed down with that armour. By turning it into a mecha, it seemed more logical to me...
The big problem with their plan is they did it horribly. Poison him, let him get away. Knock him out, wake him up.

And for that to work with the Silver Samurai, the armor and wearer would need to signify those things. Everything Yashida went against that. It is the Gundam Wing idea. The armor represents the pilot.

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Old 07-31-2013, 08:18 PM   #310
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The big problem with their plan is they did it horribly. Poison him, let him get away. Knock him out, wake him up.

And for that to work with the Silver Samurai, the armor and wearer would need to signify those things. Everything Yashida went against that. It is the Gundam Wing idea. The armor represents the pilot.
They didn't let him get away, he escaped. That's why Viper was angry at Harada, because she reminded him that she made him weaker just to make Logan easier to catch and he still failed. They intended for him to be caught at the funeral and taken to the temple.

When he came to the village, they knocked him out so they could restrain him, allowing the Samurai mech suit access to take off his claws and drill into his bone marrow. They could have waited until he was in the temple, but it doesn't really make a difference...they still would have had to restrain him, which means they would still have to knock him out, because he sure as hell wasn't going into that chair willingly.

Viper taunted him to get the claws out, and it was safer to do that with him locked down and unable to move his hands. No one gets hurt that way.

That was the plan: knock him out, lock him down, use the suit to cut off his claws and extract his bone marrow. Ideally, they wanted him restrained for that whole procedure. Presumably, they needed him awake to get the claws to come out, but it's also better to have the character conscious at that point. We'd just seen a scene with Logan and Yukio in danger while Logan was passed out, why have him passed out again when **** is going down?

Mariko interferred and he broke out, but they still nearly got what they wanted by the same means - the suit. Obviously it was needed to get Logan's healing factor. It all makes sense.

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Old 07-31-2013, 08:23 PM   #311
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They didn't let him get away, he escaped. That's why Viper was angry at Harada, because she reminded him that she made him weaker just to make Logan easier to catch and he still failed. They intended for him to be caught at the funeral and taken to the temple.

When he came to the village, they knocked him out so they could restrain him, allowing the Samurai mech suit access to take off his claws and drill into his bone marrow. They could have waited until he was in the temple, but it doesn't really make a difference...they still would have had to restrain him, which means they would still have to knock him out, because he sure as hell wasn't going into that chair willingly.

Viper taunted him to get the claws out, and it was safer to do that with him locked down and unable to move his hands. No one gets hurt that way.

That was the plan: knock him out, lock him down, use the suit to cut off his claws and extract his bone marrow. Ideally, they wanted him restrained for that whole procedure. Presumably, they needed him awake to get the claws to come out, but it's also better to have the character conscious at that point. We'd just seen a scene with Logan and Yukio in danger while Logan was passed out, why have him passed out again when **** is going down?

Mariko interferred and he broke out, but they still nearly got what they wanted by the same means - the suit. Obviously it was needed to get Logan's healing factor. It all makes sense.
At what point in this plan is the suit necessary? As in it must be created for this to work. You keep saying it makes sense. I want to know why they need a giant mech to have this plan work out. Why is it necessary for the process? That is where all the logic falls apart. They made a giant mech to do all this.

And I agree, don't knock him out again. But they did knock him out again. That is what is missing here. They put him in that situation.

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Old 07-31-2013, 08:35 PM   #312
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At what point in this plan is the suit necessary? As in it must be created for this to work. You keep saying it makes sense. I want to know why they need a giant mech to have this plan work out.

And I agree, don't knock him out again. But they did knock him out again. That is what is missing here. They put him in that situation.
The suit was Yashida's life support system, it kept him from dying. The suit had the mechanics to extract Logan's healing factor and channel it into Yashida. He would have died in the suit without it. It was like an iPod without a power cord until they could get to Logan.

The Silver Samurai held significance in Yashida's history, so the suit was built in its image. He planned to stay in the suit. In fact, he had to, as he had already faked his death so no one could know he was in there. With the suit, he would be indestructible, he could protect Mariko, and no one else would be able to take his company by force.

The plan went beyond just the act of taking Logan's healing factor.

And I DO think they needed to knock Logan out to get what they needed (I never said they didn't?). It's the only way they could restrain him. It was just more difficult for them to do than they originally thought it would be.

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Old 07-31-2013, 08:37 PM   #313
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The suit was Yashida's life support system, it kept him from dying. The suit had the mechanics to extract Logan's healing factor and channel it into Yashida. He would have died in the suit without it. It was like an iPod without a power cord until they could get to Logan.

The Silver Samurai held significance in Yashida's history, so the suit was built in its image. He planned to stay in the suit. In fact, he had to, as he had already faked his death so no one could know he was in there. With the suit, he would be indestructible, he could protect Mariko, and no one else would be able to take his company by force.

The plan went beyond just the act of taking Logan's healing factor.

And I DO think they needed to knock Logan out to get what they needed (I never said they didn't?). It's the only way they could restrain him. It was just more difficult for them to do than they originally thought it would be.
When is this explained?

And you could do all of this without the suit.

And the suit needing Logan doesn't really make sense in the long term. I am sure he was stealing the ability, not simply using Logan as an energy source.

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Old 07-31-2013, 09:04 PM   #314
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When is this explained?

And you could do all of this without the suit.

And the suit needing Logan doesn't really make sense in the long term. I am sure he was stealing the ability, not simply using Logan as an energy source.
It's explained during the finale, when Yashida is telling Mariko that he can be with her forever now, and it's fairly obvious that this was his plan all along.

At the start of the film, Yashida is terrified of dying, and doesn't take his life along with the other Japanese soldiers in Nagasaki. Logan saves his life, and Yashida sees him recover from gruesome injuries, and from there he became not only obsessed with mutants, but he turned Logan into a magical bedtime story character to his grandaughter.

In the present, he is dying, and he's not only still terrified of dying, he begs Logan when he refuses the offer to relieve him of his healing power to reconsider because Mariko's life is in danger and he needs to protect her.

It was revealed that Yashida's mutant obsession and mysterious projects had virtually bankrupted his company and destroyed his relationship with his son (hence Shingen's hatred of mutants). Shingen was planning a takeover of the company, and was willing to take his daughter's life in order to do it.

The mysterious project was the suit of armor, modelled after a figure that has significance in his family's history. He faked his death so the company would be inherited by Mariko. The suit worked as a life support system to keep him alive, but it needed Logan's healing factor to keep it working. The suit had the mechanics needed to extract his healing factor and sustain Yashida's life from there. He would have died without Logan's healing factor, that was the last piece of the machine they needed.

In the suit, he could stay hidden, protect his granddaughter, and keep anyone else from taking it from them, as the suit was indestructible. He explains this to Mariko as he's taking his healing factor, and Mariko refuse to go along with him ("I buried my grandfather.").

Yashida thought he was keeping his family's honor, but he was wrong. It was a flawed, cruel, and selfish plan. He just didn't see it that way.

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Old 07-31-2013, 09:12 PM   #315
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I just want to know how Yashida was knew that he would able to restore his youth by chopping off Wolverine's claws and drilling into his marrow.

People on this board HATE on the adamantium bullet in X-Men Origins: Wolverine because Stryker "knew" it would erase Logan's memories and then it did just that. I think Stryker's assumption wasn't that illogical since the bullet would destroy Wolverine's brain. Wolverine can heal his body pretty quick but what about his mind?

With this adamantium suit scheme there is no logic...how did he know he could transfer Wolverine's powers to himself by sucking out his bone marrow? And that it would make him young again? Wolverine still ages...just very slowly.

And I mean Stryker experimented on mutants and figured out how to extract their powers in the 80s....surely this old man Yashida could have figured out a way to get Wolverine's powers without creating a Gundam...

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Old 07-31-2013, 09:19 PM   #316
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My ratings:

The Wolverine - 8/10
Man of Steel - 7/10
Star Trek Into Darkness - 6/10 (Cumberbatch out-acted everyone else in the movie!)
Iron Man 3 - 4/10
Pacific Rim - 2/10

The Wolverine was, for me, surprisingly good, considering how overexposed I feel the character has become.

Marvel has the advantage of solo films for Thor, Captain America, whereas Fox doesn't for Storm, Cyclops, so unless and until Fox starts to flesh out other characters, it will never match the Marvel business model. But I didn't like Iron Man 3 at all.
I actually want to see a solo film for Storm, either an origin story or a post-Xmen film like what Wolverine got.

But the problem with releasing so many spin-off is $$$. First they are still expensive to make even if the budget is under $150 million or even $100 million. It might lead to oversaturation and the GA just won't care to spend their money watching another spin-off movie.

The only way for FOX to match MCU's model is if they have more properties, like imagine if they also have Daredevil and Spider-Man. Along with X-Men and Fantastic Four, they would have four comic-book properties and in every 2 to 3 years, they could release a sequel to each of them and do a big team up movie in every 3 to 4 years.

But with JUST the X-Men, it might only work for DOFP because its the first.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:01 PM   #317
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It's explained during the finale, when Yashida is telling Mariko that he can be with her forever now, and it's fairly obvious that this was his plan all along.

At the start of the film, Yashida is terrified of dying, and doesn't take his life along with the other Japanese soldiers in Nagasaki. Logan saves his life, and Yashida sees him recover from gruesome injuries, and from there he became not only obsessed with mutants, but he turned Logan into a magical bedtime story character to his grandaughter.

In the present, he is dying, and he's not only still terrified of dying, he begs Logan when he refuses the offer to relieve him of his healing power to reconsider because Mariko's life is in danger and he needs to protect her.

It was revealed that Yashida's mutant obsession and mysterious projects had virtually bankrupted his company and destroyed his relationship with his son (hence Shingen's hatred of mutants). Shingen was planning a takeover of the company, and was willing to take his daughter's life in order to do it.

The mysterious project was the suit of armor, modelled after a figure that has significance in his family's history. He faked his death so the company would be inherited by Mariko. The suit worked as a life support system to keep him alive, but it needed Logan's healing factor to keep it working. The suit had the mechanics needed to extract his healing factor and sustain Yashida's life from there. He would have died without Logan's healing factor, that was the last piece of the machine they needed.

In the suit, he could stay hidden, protect his granddaughter, and keep anyone else from taking it from them, as the suit was indestructible. He explains this to Mariko as he's taking his healing factor, and Mariko refuse to go along with him ("I buried my grandfather.").

Yashida thought he was keeping his family's honor, but he was wrong. It was a flawed, cruel, and selfish plan. He just didn't see it that way.
I did see the movie.

I know all this. My question is when does he say he needs the suit after extracting the healing ability. I actually remember him saying he needed the suit up to that point to keep him alive. How the scene played out made it kinda of clear it wasn't the suit. He needed the actual healing factor.

In fact what Yashida says is this.

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"Its only this armor that's kept me alive. We built it to make this, to take what you would not give, and transfer your unwanted healing to my body."
He specifically says my body. As he said earlier in the film, he knows how to transfer it from one person to another. He never says he is transferring it to the suit. He wouldn't need the suit once the transfer was done He'd be like Logan.

And it all makes sense, because they can still kill him while in the suit. The process never finishes, he never gains Logan's full healing ability.

And I honestly can't remember him saying he was going to stay in the suit and protect Mariko behind the scenes. When does he specifically say these things?

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:24 PM   #318
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Best superhero film of 2013? You've obviously never heard of Man of Steel.

and

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The Wolverine just had more emotional weight to it due to some shocking moments like with Logans claws being destroyed and the final dream of Jean.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:28 PM   #319
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

If only.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:29 PM   #320
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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If only.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:33 PM   #321
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

We have strived hard to keep this thread from turning into a "my favorite movie is better than your favorite movie" pissing contest. If it turns into one, this thread is gone.

Compare, contrast, and discuss the films...but let's respect each other's opinions, please.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:36 PM   #322
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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Originally Posted by danoyse View Post
We have strived hard to keep this thread from turning into a "my favorite movie is better than your favorite movie" pissing contest. If it turns into one, this thread is gone.

Compare, contrast, and discuss the films...but let's respect each other's opinions, please.
I wasn't making fun. I just really liked the response.

MoS is definitely my favorite, but I liked a lot of IM3 and the first 2 acts and coda of the Wolverine are pretty great imo.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:40 PM   #323
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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I wasn't making fun. I just really liked the response.

MoS is definitely my favorite, but I liked a lot of IM3 and the first 2 acts and coda of the Wolverine are pretty great imo.
Wasn't your post that caused the warning.

Loved IM3 and MOS, although neither as much as Star Trek...and I already have all 3 on pre-order from Amazon.

The Wolverine is definitely my favorite.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:43 PM   #324
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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Wasn't your post that caused the warning.

Loved IM3 and MOS, although neither as much as Star Trek...and I already have all 3 on pre-order from Amazon.

The Wolverine is definitely my favorite.
All it took was one aggressive scrubbing of Jackman, and you already had it as one of your favorite films.

And yeah, buying all of them on blu-ray. Well except for the Wolverine. Probably going with the extended edition. Fix that ninja fight.

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Old 07-31-2013, 10:47 PM   #325
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Default Re: Do you think The Wolverine could be the best 2013 superhero film?

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All it took was one aggressive scrubbing of Jackman, and you already had it as one of your favorite films.

And yeah, buying all of them on blu-ray. Well except for the Wolverine. Probably going with the extended edition. Fix that ninja fight.


I can no longer be objective about this!!!!!

When I saw it the second time, I couldn't believe how much I missed the first time because I was still like from getting to go up on stage. (HE SAID MY NAME!!!!! TWICE!!!!!)

But I did genuinely think it was awesome the second time, and surprisingly so.

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