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View Poll Results: Should we torture US terrorists if needed?
Yes - Saving innocent lives is worth it 9 21.43%
No - Torture is a moral line we cannot cross 23 54.76%
I'm not sure 1 2.38%
Only in the most dire of circumstances 8 19.05%
I don't want to know about it! 1 2.38%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-23-2013, 11:58 PM   #26
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

If an American commits an act of terror against other americans and his country and is found guilty by a jury of his peers then yes I am ok with it. Old testament wrath of god should be our policy with terrorists. I'm talking physical torture.

Why anyone would be against electroshock and waterboarding is beyond me. So they can't breathe for a few seconds and they piss themselves. That's light compared to those who lost legs, arms, other body parts, life, and loved ones due to their senseless crimes.

There are exceptions and considerations I take into account, but I'm not flat out against torture.


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Old 04-24-2013, 12:25 AM   #27
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The Eighth Amendment people.

Like I said, once you go down this road, there's no easy way back. Today it's "enhanced interrogation", "delayed Miranda rights", and "indefinite detention" tomorrow, God only knows.

Well, people here are already calling for outright torture, so, perhaps tomorrow has already come.

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Old 04-24-2013, 05:50 AM   #28
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
If an American commits an act of terror against other americans and his country and is found guilty by a jury of his peers then yes I am ok with it. Old testament wrath of god should be our policy with terrorists. I'm talking physical torture.

Why anyone would be against electroshock and waterboarding is beyond me. So they can't breathe for a few seconds and they piss themselves. That's light compared to those who lost legs, arms, other body parts, life, and loved ones due to their senseless crimes.

There are exceptions and considerations I take into account, but I'm not flat out against torture.
What is your reasoning for this?

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Old 04-24-2013, 05:55 AM   #29
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Bathead View Post
It's well documented, look it up.
Look what up?

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Old 04-24-2013, 02:41 PM   #30
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The americans are so full of bull and self-righteousness (talking about the politicians mostly, but not only !!). I disagree with torture, US citizen or not, how can you be sure the info is accurate anyway and that the tortured guy won't lie just to make it stop? If you already know the info, then why torture in the first place? It's bad, if anyone would need to be tortured, those are the politicians.

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Old 04-24-2013, 03:07 PM   #31
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

Let's not toss around blanket statements of what "the Americans" are like. It gets very tiresome and there are tons of Americans opposed to torture.

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Old 04-24-2013, 04:03 PM   #32
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

I am rather disturbed by the question. Why is torture of your own citizens worse than torture of anyone else? Do you think that it would be better for foreign states to torture American citizens rather than their own? Surely torture is either acceptable or it isn't?

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Old 04-24-2013, 04:53 PM   #33
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by The Question View Post
Yes, they are. There are absolutely people who are doing that.
I was referencing those within this thread.

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We live in America, post 9/11, and the internet exists. Our culture has never been more xenophobic and reactionary
1940s Japanese-Americans would like to disagree with you.

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Yes, because torture doesn't work. Every expert in the field, every study ever done, even the forerunners for moral bankruptcy in US foreign policy the CIA themselves agree that torture is one of the lest effective tools for interrogation and information gathering there is. I'm not being hyperbolic, all of the hard evidence says that asking nicely is more effective than torture.
OBVIOUSLY, if you ask questions during torture, the person can say whatever comes to mind. Most successful interrogations don't ask questions they don't know the answer to during torture - the torture is to get them to talk, period. They ask questions they know the answer to in order to try and measure their honesty and hopefully break any mental barriers keeping them from talking. When the person begins to talk with verified answers, the torture stops and the legitimate question begins.

It's not a guarantee of trust worthy information, but it's hardly useless.
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"I am very secure in what we did and am very confident that what we did saved American lives," says Rodriguez, [former head of the CIA's Clandestine Service].
"He gave us a roadmap that allowed us to capture a bunch of al Qaeda senior leaders," says the ex-spy.
He says that even Khalid Sheik Mohammed, whom he termed "the toughest detainee we had," eventually gave up information.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_16...-qaeda-leader/
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The mastermind of the September 11 terrorist attacks finally spilled his information about upcoming al-Qaeda plots...It took 180 hours [of sleep deprivation], Rodriquez said, but Mohammed finally broke and began spilling information in torrents.

The 30 other CIA detainees broke down much more easily, usually the first time an interrogator slapped them.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-STRAIGHT.html

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Your initial premise is flawed. This is not "a question asking, what are we prepared to do in order to save innocent lives" because torture does not make us better able to save innocent lives. This is a question asking how far we're willing to go to rationalize a desire for vengeance. Vengeance is the only thing we'll get out of torturing suspected terrorists.
I'm fairly certain I know the question I asked. You bring up a valid point about how the desire for vengeance can (and does) affect things, but my question has nothing to do with personal feelings of vengeance. It is a hypothetical question about the willingness/need to sacrifice ethics for the greater good. We can certainly discuss the emotional influences, but to utterly dismiss the entire topic as nothing more than a selfish desire is to miss the point entirely.

Police and soldiers shoot, maim, pepper spray, taze and kill - all things more painful/serious than water boarding or other similar techniques. I would consider most of these instances to be just, and done for the same end game as torture (if used properly): to save lives and protect others. What makes the police and soldier's actions any less vengeful? Their targets are still "innocent until proven guilty". Yes, the threats they're stopping are more immediate, but how can we quantify the importance of an immediate, small scale threat versus a future large scale one?

Obama doesn't even bother with capturing anyone anymore (who might give information with or with out torture) - he just drone strikes them all to hell. No judge, no jury. Is that better then the possibility of a couple days of discomfort followed by a trial?

For the record, these are the methods I feel morally OK with if the need arises:
1) Water Boarding (if its ok for the actress in Expendables to do for a movie, its ok for terrorists)
2) Sleep Deprivation/Extended Interrogation Time (not allowing them to sleep, usually through a constantly revolving cast of interrogators)
3) Physical Altercation (slaps, pushes, no closed fists)
4) Sensory Overload (loud music, lights, etc)

I'm not HAPPY about torture. I wish we lived in a world where the thought didn't need to exist, but on a moral standpoint, I would rather known terrorists be uncomfortable than not be willing to try everything we can to protect others. Torture isn't a magic key that unlocks all answers, but it can be one of many effective tools in the collection of information.

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Old 04-24-2013, 05:02 PM   #34
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

All of those things amount to the equivalent of full-blown torture if they are used to a sufficient extent. People incur permanent brain damage from sleep deprivation. It's no better than the thumb screws or the electrodes on the genitals.

Don't you think that accepting a moral equivalence with- for instance- the Taliban or the North Korean regime comes with its own cost?

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Old 04-24-2013, 05:11 PM   #35
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

Man this thread is unsettling.

No ****ing torture. How hard is that to understand?

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Old 04-24-2013, 05:21 PM   #36
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Old 04-24-2013, 06:33 PM   #37
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Man this thread is unsettling.

No ****ing torture. How hard is that to understand?
Because everyone doesn't have the same opinion or beliefs as you.

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Old 04-24-2013, 07:03 PM   #38
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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No it's not. Even if I were to agree with your argument (which is made out of straw by the way), it opens a very bad can of worms both legally and ethically. Torture should never be acceptable. Once you go down that road, it's very hard to turn back.

So to reiterate: it's unethical, shortsighted, legally dubious and, as others have stated, it usually doesn't even work.
Example. Meaning hypothetical scenario. Did you read the entirety of my post?

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Old 04-24-2013, 09:43 PM   #39
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Because everyone doesn't have the same opinion or beliefs as you.
No, because you're talking about torturing people.

Not all opinions are equally valid.

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Old 04-24-2013, 11:00 PM   #40
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No, because you're talking about torturing people.

Not all opinions are equally valid.
And the life of an unrepenting terrorist is not equal to the life of an innocent civilian.

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Old 04-24-2013, 11:13 PM   #41
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

Either you have principles, or you don't. There are lines that are not crossed. Ever.

Granted, I think we're already beyond that, and this thread is evidence.

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Old 04-24-2013, 11:20 PM   #42
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Man this thread is unsettling.

No ****ing torture. How hard is that to understand?
Good. It SHOULD be unsettling. We're talking about what lengths we should go to get information about a world wide network of blood thirsty, suicidal individuals whose very existence is the maim, rape, and murder completely innocent strangers on a grand scale.

In 2012, there were nearly 3,000 terrorist attacks across the globe. Over 11,000 innocent people have been killed. That is in one year. We can't stop this by giving the evil men massages and a comfy cell to sleep in. Sometimes, the only thing to do is to allow a few good men to toe that line into darkness, and even still, we're not talking about cutting off body parts, or torturing for the hell of it.

You are against (comparatively) minor torture. Since allowance for it has been shut down, the government is no longer worried about trying to capture terrorists alive and charging them with crimes. Instead, the current president is having drones carpet bomb every person that is a suspected terrorist, killing countless innocents in the process. No arrest. No due process. No innocent until proven guilty.

...and making a known terrorist leader stay awake for a couple days until he cooperates is immoral. smh

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Old 04-24-2013, 11:27 PM   #43
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Either you have principles, or you don't. There are lines that are not crossed. Ever.

Granted, I think we're already beyond that, and this thread is evidence.
Nice. How would you feel if I told you that because you think a terrorist shouldn't be tortured in a last ditch effort to save people, that means you consider a terrorist's comfort more important than the lives of innocent people?

I've made a point to not attack people for having a differing viewpoint, as I do in fact realize that other people look at things from different angles. I do not judge people for disagreeing with me. If you can't do the same, then you don't really have any business being apart of this discussion.

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Old 04-24-2013, 11:39 PM   #44
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Either you have principles, or you don't. There are lines that are not crossed. Ever.

Granted, I think we're already beyond that, and this thread is evidence.
Truth. What does sacrificing lives known to be in danger for the sake of standing by your principles say about...your principles?

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Old 04-25-2013, 12:34 AM   #45
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That's the risk you take. You don't throw your principles away because they're inconvenient. Once you start going down that road you end up with secret prisons, gross abuses of power and... actually that's already happened.

Faith in the system is failing.

First it's minor maltreatment, then it's waterboarding (which is torture), now, people are calling for outright torture.

If you don't see that as a worrisome development, then well, I guess we're all screwed.

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Old 04-25-2013, 07:06 AM   #46
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That's the risk you take. You don't throw your principles away because they're inconvenient. Once you start going down that road you end up with secret prisons, gross abuses of power and... actually that's already happened.

Faith in the system is failing.

First it's minor maltreatment, then it's waterboarding (which is torture), now, people are calling for outright torture.

If you don't see that as a worrisome development, then well, I guess we're all screwed.
Indeed; that is the risk you take in the interest of saving lives in our hypothetical scenario. I would be willing to maintain my principles that any life that can be saved is worth saving, even if it involved something one might consider unscrupulous.

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Old 04-25-2013, 07:38 AM   #47
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The "saving lives" argument only works if it has been demonstrated that torture saves lives. It hasn't.

As a matter of legal principle, there has to be an uncrossable line. Relativity is extremely dangerous. Few people would instinctively object to shaking and shouting intended to reveal the location of a ticking bomb, but most would object to prisoners being kept without charge and deprived of their senses while being subjected to demeaning interrogation for years on end, just so that we can get the address of someone we want to kill. The fact is that the torture the US uses is always of the latter and never of the former type, probably because the former scenario never happens.

The concept of justified torture is a myth that appeals to armchair CIA agents, fans of 24 who can't distinguish fact and fiction, and unscrupulous politicians who want to pander to a bloodthirsty and cowardly populace. It is a trite reflection, but if Americans are so terrified of a few whackos that they are instantly prepared to abandon all of the principles enshrined in their history, constitution and the international conventions to which they have subscribed, then the terrorists have won. And you didn't put up much of a fight.

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Old 04-25-2013, 08:14 AM   #48
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Old 04-25-2013, 08:18 AM   #49
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Old 04-25-2013, 08:35 AM   #50
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Once upon a time we used the fact that our enemies (Nazis, Viet Cong, etc) tortured for clear moral high ground and moral supremacy.

How did we get here where people thinks torture is acceptable?

Torture of anyone, let alone American citizens???

What if one of your new friends had secret plans to bomb some place? Would it be okay if you were black-bagged, dragged from your home, and tortured for hours for information you had no clue about?

Even if you were fine with such a scenario in the name of security I still wouldn't wish it on you. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

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