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View Poll Results: Should we torture US terrorists if needed?
Yes - Saving innocent lives is worth it 16 25.00%
No - Torture is a moral line we cannot cross 35 54.69%
I'm not sure 1 1.56%
Only in the most dire of circumstances 11 17.19%
I don't want to know about it! 1 1.56%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:24 PM   #76
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
The problem with being okay with the "other guy" being tortured is these things become a slippery slope once you open Pandora's Box.

It started as "America respects due process for all people"

Then it became, "America respects due process for Americans only"

But we still had the fact that, "America doesn't torture"....

But then that became, "America doesn't torture Americans and non-terrorists"...

which later became, "America tortures Americans who are definitely terrorists"

How long until, "America tortures anyone who might be a terrorist without due process"???


We lost all these rights within 11 years after 200 years of keeping them sacred. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of them being stripped away further for the sake of false security.
This is an extremely valid point, and one I've thought of a lot while considering my own views on the topic (contrary to popular belief, I wasn't born wearing a "Team Waterboard" shirt. The possibility of the bold terrifies me, I admit, but I'd like to think we know where the line is drawn, or at the very least are able to realign our selves before it occurs.

Like I said in my previous post, there's a hell of a lot wrong with this country (and more every day); but I personally don't consider (IMO) justified and purposeful torture of a select few evil men in extreme situations to be the most egregious issue in this country.

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:24 PM   #77
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
Are you people serious? The man condones torture, and you go after me for a perceived lack of tact?

I think I will take my leave after all.
I'm not going after you, I'm simply saying there are ways to give your opinion, oppose another opinion without going off on them. That's all....you're not in trouble, in the slightest.....

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:25 PM   #78
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
The problem with being okay with the "other guy" being tortured is these things become a slippery slope once you open Pandora's Box.

It started as "America respects due process for all people"

Then it became, "America respects due process for Americans only"

But we still had the fact that, "America doesn't torture"....

But then that became, "America doesn't torture Americans and non-terrorists"...

which later became, "America tortures Americans who are definitely terrorists"

How long until, "America tortures anyone who might be a terrorist without due process"???


We lost all these rights within 11 years after 200 years of keeping them sacred. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of them being stripped away further for the sake of false security.
Who says the government hasn't already....

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:33 PM   #79
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

If this were about marijuana, or some other innocuous issue, I would agree about decorum.

But this is torture. When did we all stop agreeing that torture was amoral?

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:38 PM   #80
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

It's a fair point. I don't think the Hype would permit a poll to be made asking when non-consensual sex was acceptable. I don't accept that torture is any better.

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:39 PM   #81
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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If this were about marijuana, or some other innocuous issue, I would agree about decorum.

But this is torture. When did we all stop agreeing that torture was amoral?
And again, I agree with you...BUT, people do have a right to be able to give their opinion without being slammed...give your opinion as strong as you want, without making it personal at the other poster. That is all that is asked...

I do not like torture, I despise it, I think it makes our country as weak as countries like Cambodia, Syria, Iran, etc....it is disgusting....if some believe that our country needs to torture because they believe it brings in information that is needed to protect us....so be it, I just have to disagree with it.

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:40 PM   #82
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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I'm afraid you're probably right. It is probably wrong to dignify the proposition by engaging with it. Better to wait quietly for a more enlightened age, where those who participated in torture will be brought to trial.
My stance is not one I take lightly. I didn't come to it easily, and truth be told, I don't like that it is the conclusion I came to, but the fact remains that I believe if restrained and regulated torture-based interrogation is seen as the final and only way to get vital information from a terrorist, any lives potentially saved (directly or indirectly) is more important than feeling good about what I believe.

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Oh how I wish I could speak my mind. Alas.

Anywho, I'm staying out of this one, since I get the sense I'm already treading on thin ice.
If the length of my posts are any indication, I welcome good discussion on this topic, and even though I may have different opinions on the matter, I appreciate reading others' views. Truth be told, some of your comments/beliefs here have made me just disgusted of you as you are of me, but I've tried to keep the personal aspect out of it, because this IS an important topic and it should be discussed. If you can't offer me the same respect I've tried to show you, then yes, discussion is pointless. But if you want to discuss things civilly and intelligently, then I welcome your thoughts. Who knows, maybe you'd even change my mind.

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:44 PM   #83
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

It is not about feeling good about what you believe.

I don't see the need to sell out a country's values because of a ridiculous hypothetical scenario. This isn't 24.

And even if that ridiculous scenario were true, I still wouldn't.

We've been down that road now, and it is ugly.

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:48 PM   #84
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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It's a fair point. I don't think the Hype would permit a poll to be made asking when non-consensual sex was acceptable. I don't accept that torture is any better.
Rape is actually a common form of torture in countries like Iran.

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:50 PM   #85
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

Or Abu Ghraib.

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:52 PM   #86
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
And again, I agree with you...BUT, people do have a right to be able to give their opinion without being slammed...give your opinion as strong as you want, without making it personal at the other poster. That is all that is asked...

I do not like torture, I despise it, I think it makes our country as weak as countries like Cambodia, Syria, Iran, etc....it is disgusting....if some believe that our country needs to torture because they believe it brings in information that is needed to protect us....so be it, I just have to agree with it.
I think you mean disagree, lol.

The difference here is that the countries you and others keep mentioning in comparison are countries who do not torture out of dire need of stopping terrorists. They do not limit the people, types, length and severity of torture. They mutilate, rape and murder to instill control, fear and despair. That is an entirely different universe compared to what I am talking about.

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:56 PM   #87
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

Once you begin saying that torture is alright under certain circumstances, it's just a matter of degrees.

You create an environment which enables worse things, as we've seen time and again.

And then you end up with Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and those secret prisons in East Europe.

And then **** just goes down hill from there.

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:58 PM   #88
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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I don't see the need to sell out a country's values because of a ridiculous hypothetical scenario. This isn't 24.
Again, I've never watched 24, but I think I can safely say that the real world is full of far more dangerous threats than whats on a TV show.

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Rape is actually a common form of torture in countries like Iran.
Yes, and that is absolutely terrible. But again, I believe that there is an important difference between evil men raping and mutilating innocent people because they're board on a friday night and the military water-boarding a terrorist in a last ditch effort to get information.

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Old 04-26-2013, 06:00 PM   #89
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Rape is actually a common form of torture in countries like Iran.
Yes, but a poll about the acceptability of "rape" wouldn't be allowed, because we have developed a sanitised view of torture as something that happens to other people. The fact that torture frequently includes rape won't enter the group psyche, because rape is inherently bad, while torture apparently sometimes isn't.

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Old 04-26-2013, 06:06 PM   #90
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Once you begin saying that torture is alright under certain circumstances, it's just a matter of degrees.

You create an environment which enables worse things, as we've seen time and again.

And then you end up with Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and those secret prisons in East Europe.

And then **** just goes down hill from there.
That's very, very true. We should absolutely be aware of the potential downward spirals in life and make aims to avoid those outcomes as much as possible. But do we do so by making steps and road blocks to avoid them, or do we just avoid the situation all together, regardless of any possible benefits to be gained? When do we decide what can or can't be done based on potential outcomes? What topics do we apply this method of thinking to? Which ones do we not? Of course, this might be getting a little more philosophical than it needs to be, but I guess my point is running away from things because of the fear of what may come to pass isn't always the best choice.

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Old 04-26-2013, 06:11 PM   #91
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When do we decide what can or can't be done based on potential outcomes?
Aren't you advocating torture on that precise basis?

We know what happens when a state throws away its moral compass.

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Old 04-26-2013, 06:12 PM   #92
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Yes, but a poll about the acceptability of "rape" wouldn't be allowed, because we have developed a sanitised view of torture as something that happens to other people. The fact that torture frequently includes rape won't enter the group psyche, because rape is inherently bad, while torture apparently sometimes isn't.
So now you're insinuating that my acceptance of water-boarding a terrorist is equivalent to accepting rape? As someone whose teenage cousin was raped and murdered a few years ago, I find your insinuation absolutely disgusting and insulting of the highest order.

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Old 04-26-2013, 06:25 PM   #93
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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I think you mean disagree, lol.

The difference here is that the countries you and others keep mentioning in comparison are countries who do not torture out of dire need of stopping terrorists. They do not limit the people, types, length and severity of torture. They mutilate, rape and murder to instill control, fear and despair. That is an entirely different universe compared to what I am talking about.
The purpose is the same. To keep control.

In many countries who torture the leadership or autocracy came into power via some form of revolution or coup. So that leadership wants to avoid being overthrown by the same means by using police state tactics including torture.

Torture is just a means to prevent revolution and terrorist attacks on the public is the perfect way to get the masses to blindly yet happily agree to giving up sacred liberties and human rights.

”He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.”

- Benjamin Franklin

Maybe that why Americans who forgave the torture and lack of due process for middle eastern people will find themselves in the same position soon enough.

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Old 04-26-2013, 06:28 PM   #94
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And I find your advocacy of torture disgusting. Degrading acts are not any less heinous because you lack a personal nexus with their victim.

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Old 04-26-2013, 06:33 PM   #95
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That's very, very true. We should absolutely be aware of the potential downward spirals in life and make aims to avoid those outcomes as much as possible. But do we do so by making steps and road blocks to avoid them, or do we just avoid the situation all together, regardless of any possible benefits to be gained? When do we decide what can or can't be done based on potential outcomes? What topics do we apply this method of thinking to? Which ones do we not? Of course, this might be getting a little more philosophical than it needs to be, but I guess my point is running away from things because of the fear of what may come to pass isn't always the best choice.
What about using fear for the safety for thousands to ruin the values, moral integrity and human rights for hundreds of millions of Americans and an entire nation/superpower.

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Old 04-26-2013, 07:31 PM   #96
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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So now you're insinuating that my acceptance of water-boarding a terrorist is equivalent to accepting rape? As someone whose teenage cousin was raped and murdered a few years ago, I find your insinuation absolutely disgusting and insulting of the highest order.
Japanese soldiers water boarded US Pows during WWII and were punished for it. You can't impose moral standards on others that you are not willing to follow.

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Old 04-26-2013, 07:52 PM   #97
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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I think you mean disagree, lol.

The difference here is that the countries you and others keep mentioning in comparison are countries who do not torture out of dire need of stopping terrorists. They do not limit the people, types, length and severity of torture. They mutilate, rape and murder to instill control, fear and despair. That is an entirely different universe compared to what I am talking about.
Yeah, that is called....I have 5 minutes to post and run....lol

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Old 04-26-2013, 08:50 PM   #98
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Torture of U.S. citizens is unconstitutional.

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Old 04-26-2013, 11:12 PM   #99
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The purpose is the same. To keep control.
One certainly is about control, as an attempt to maintain an iron fist of fear and subjugation after violently coming into power. The other is about protection of innocence and stopping a global network of terrorists. I guess in a roundabout way, it's about "control", but I would have to say its of a very different sort, such that it's unfair to lump the two rationales together.

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”He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.”

Maybe that why Americans who forgave the torture and lack of due process for middle eastern people will find themselves in the same position soon enough.
That's one of my favorite quotes of his, and I'm happy you posted it because it leads straight back to the whole point of this thread. But before anyone says how hypocritical it is of me to love that quote yet accept "enhanced interrogation", allow me to explain...

I'm a supporter of our basic rights as Americans, and look at the ever-growing power the federal government has with disdain. That being said, I also have a very strong mentality when it comes to murderers and terrorists: if you murder innocent people, or convince others to kill innocent people, and/or actively participate in an organization whose purpose is to murder innocent people, then you yourself cease to be human. You are a monster and nothing more. That being said, I still believe that we need to allow the justice system to do its job - simply tossing drones at anyone we think may be a terrorist isn't justice. That's actually one of the good things that occurred when torture was openly used - the military tried to capture as many terrorists alive as possible (leading to proper due process) in order to get information (some of which resulted in using torture). Now we don't even bother, we just bomb em to hell, civilians and all.

Increasing the punishment for crimes, or allowing for more severe interrogations of known terrorists is not a loss of liberty for US citizens. "Pandora's Box" has been mentioned a few times. It's a valid point, no doubt about it. But where was the fascist dictatorship people are afraid of when terrorists were tortured in the early 2000s? Yes, the US has made plenty of blunders in terms of taking away liberty, but it wasn't out of a thirst for fascist power first tasted by what happened in Guantanamo. Its a thirst for more control, period (security, privacy, healthcare, consumerism, etc). Torture had nothing to do with it; its just a natural (but not good) evolution of a crumbling government body in an increasing corrupt world.

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Japanese soldiers water boarded US Pows during WWII and were punished for it.
Thank you. To be honest, I don't really have much of a response, but it's an excellent point that I feel deserves addressing. The torture of American troops was, as the following account says, "for no reason than simply because we were the enemy, and were sick and helpless."
(I apologize for the look of this site...oh how it hurts the eyes - the blogger obviously should've taken a graphic design course, lol)
http://www.glynn.k12.ga.us/BHS/acade...5456/home.html

I am in no way saying that if they tortured American Soldiers for information, then it would be OK. The Japanese were enemy combatants, plain and simple. They could have had all the "justifiable" reason in the world, but that doesn't take away the fact that the soldiers were OUR guys, and naturally we don't want anything to happen to them. But remember, while we were punishing Japan for torture with one hand, the other hand was releasing innocent Japanese-Americans from internment camps, which leads me to:

Quote:
You can't impose moral standards on others that you are not willing to follow.
The US doesn't want other countries to have nuclear power or weapons; yet we can have nuclear power and weapons. ...Its a wonderful sentiment - one that should be followed as much as possible - but unfortunately isn't easily followed in reality, and in some cases, double standards are necessary.

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And I find your advocacy of torture disgusting. Degrading acts are not any less heinous because you lack a personal nexus with their victim.
I find it interesting that you gave me hell for telling another poster I wasn't going to read any more of your posts in a tired discussion in another forum, and here you've not only done the same, but are also being hostile and extraneous, despite constantly calling for more courteous and productive discussions on these boards. Overlord and MessiahDecoy are perfectly able to discuss this civilly (I appreciate that, btw!), so please don't pretend that your enmity is born from some laudable defense of morality. You just don't like what I have to say, can't respond to most of my points, and instead of walking away or attempting to reciprocate my civility in order to better understand each other, you respond by hurling insults, accusations, and please forgive me for being blunt, simply acting like a child. Like I said before, I'm MORE than willing to try and continue civil discussion, but if this is how you want to continue, you're more than welcome to; I've got an ignore button.

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Old 04-26-2013, 11:20 PM   #100
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Torture of U.S. citizens is unconstitutional.
Yup, it absolutely is. I don't think anyone was saying it wasn't (if I made it seem like I was saying it wasn't, then I apologize).

The case in the original post that spawned this thread is of a senator saying we should torture the Boston Bomber in order to get information. He's an American citizen, so as you rightly say, its against the law. We spent an entire war using information from tortured terrorists in one way or another, an act that was sanctioned by the US government, and suddenly a slip of paper saying US CITIZEN turns it into a whole other ball game (slightly hyperbolic, but you get my meaning). I had hoped this thread would discuss the distinction between what applies to citizens and non-citizens, but I obviously underestimated the passion of beliefs on torture in general.

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