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View Poll Results: Should we torture US terrorists if needed?
Yes - Saving innocent lives is worth it 9 21.43%
No - Torture is a moral line we cannot cross 23 54.76%
I'm not sure 1 2.38%
Only in the most dire of circumstances 8 19.05%
I don't want to know about it! 1 2.38%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-26-2013, 11:35 PM   #101
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

I don't want to torture the Boston bomber, but I sure as hell wouldn't have read him his rights before the damn 48 hours was over. Good god can someone please remove Holder from his office. He is a ****ing idiot.

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Old 04-27-2013, 12:25 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
Yup, it absolutely is. I don't think anyone was saying it wasn't (if I made it seem like I was saying it wasn't, then I apologize).

The case in the original post that spawned this thread is of a senator saying we should torture the Boston Bomber in order to get information. He's an American citizen, so as you rightly say, its against the law. We spent an entire war using information from tortured terrorists in one way or another, an act that was sanctioned by the US government, and suddenly a slip of paper saying US CITIZEN turns it into a whole other ball game (slightly hyperbolic, but you get my meaning). I had hoped this thread would discuss the distinction between what applies to citizens and non-citizens, but I obviously underestimated the passion of beliefs on torture in general.
I guess the question you posed was if it was okay to torture U.S. Citizens and agave people a choice of answers. I think people should realize that our Constitution is supposed to protect us from cruel and unusual punishment and offer us the right to a speedy trial by our peers. With that being said, of course, torture of U.S. citizens (or for that matter anyone residing within the U.S. and it's territories) should not be allowed.

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Old 04-27-2013, 12:29 AM   #103
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Forget the constitution, how about basic human decency?

Why do we need to qualify it with US citizens?

What's next? Strip Americans of their citizenship so they can be tortured?

Actually they already alluded to that.

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Old 04-27-2013, 12:29 AM   #104
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Thank you. To be honest, I don't really have much of a response, but it's an excellent point that I feel deserves addressing. The torture of American troops was, as the following account says, "for no reason than simply because we were the enemy, and were sick and helpless."
(I apologize for the look of this site...oh how it hurts the eyes - the blogger obviously should've taken a graphic design course, lol)
http://www.glynn.k12.ga.us/BHS/acade...5456/home.html

I am in no way saying that if they tortured American Soldiers for information, then it would be OK. The Japanese were enemy combatants, plain and simple. They could have had all the "justifiable" reason in the world, but that doesn't take away the fact that the soldiers were OUR guys, and naturally we don't want anything to happen to them. But remember, while we were punishing Japan for torture with one hand, the other hand was releasing innocent Japanese-Americans from internment camps, which leads me to:
But wasn't wrong to imprison Japanese Americans in the first place, letting them go after the war doesn't make up for the fact that they shouldn't have been imprisoned in the first place. Plus isn't the imprisoning of Japanese Americans a prime example of letting fear dictate us and erode our values and freedoms?

I am not going to defend the Japanese Imperial Army, but Japanese soldiers can make the same arguments you are making. That the US soldiers were "enemy combatants" and that they needed to water board those POWs to save the lives of Japanese civilians.

Saying water boarding is bad when its done to our guys and not bad when its done to others, is not an effective argument. More emotional then factual.

The Syrian government calls those who fight against them terrorists, does that mean that anyone fighting against the Syrian regime is an enemy combatant? Can't any dictatorship label anyone who opposes it a "terrorist" and if the US says its okay to torture terrorists, what moral grounds to do they have to tell these regimes not to use torture?

Aren't terms of enemy combatant and terrorist often used by governments to justify to shutting down any sort of opposition?

If the US government says torture is okay in this case or that case, why can't another government say this other case warrants torture. Who draws the line to say when torture is warranted or not? Isn't it easier to say torture is wrong, every time and condemn it?


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The US doesn't want other countries to have nuclear power or weapons; yet we can have nuclear power and weapons. ...Its a wonderful sentiment - one that should be followed as much as possible - but unfortunately isn't easily followed in reality, and in some cases, double standards are necessary.
But isn't that biggest strike against the US and why they have surrendered any sort of moral leadership in our world?

The US government often talks about freedom, but then goes around and supports dictatorships when it was in their narrow interests to do so. The people who suffer under these dictatorships have little reason to see the US as a beacon freedom.

If the US truly wants to be a moral leader in the world, its actions have to match its worlds.


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Old 04-27-2013, 12:41 AM   #105
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I don't want to torture the Boston bomber, but I sure as hell wouldn't have read him his rights before the damn 48 hours was over. Good god can someone please remove Holder from his office. He is a ****ing idiot.
You would only need to read a person his Miranda rights if you want to use anything he says against him in court and remember, he was held under arrest for more than two days (they arrested him on a Friday and charged him on a Monday). The fact that they read him his rights means they plan to prosecute him and that he probably knew nothing more about activities that would have posed an eminent danger to Americans at large.

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Old 04-27-2013, 01:39 AM   #106
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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But wasn't wrong to imprison Japanese Americans in the first place, letting them go after the war doesn't make up for the fact that they shouldn't have been imprisoned in the first place.
Perhaps I'm just misinterpreting this, but I didn't claim, nor do I think that it was OK for the Japanese-Americans to be imprisoned. I was just trying to point out what could be considered American hypocrisy.

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Saying water boarding is bad when its done to our guys and not bad when its done to others, is not an effective argument. More emotional then factual.
As I said in my reply, I freely admit that its an emotional response, and therefor not an effective argument. From a non-emotional perspective, the "right and wrong of it" was determined by the victor - had the Japanese won, the world would have seen us in the wrong.

Quote:
The Syrian government calls those who fight against them terrorists, does that mean that anyone fighting against the Syrian regime is an enemy combatant? Can't any dictatorship label anyone who opposes it a "terrorist" and if the US says its okay to torture terrorists, what moral grounds to do they have to tell these regimes not to use torture? If the US government says torture is okay in this case or that case, why can't another government say this other case warrants torture. Who draws the line to say when torture is warranted or not?
It's the trouble with the old saying "one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist". Again, hypothetically, like with nuclear arms, it would have to be something the UN sanctions with extreme regulations and prejudice; though I certainly see your point.

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Isn't it easier to say torture is wrong, every time and condemn it?
I don't think making decisions based on the ease of defining terms and conditions is the right move to make.

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The US government often talks about freedom, but then goes around and supports dictatorships when it was in their narrow interests to do so. The people who suffer under these dictatorships have little reason to see the US as a beacon freedom.
Very, very, very true.

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If the US truly wants to be a moral leader in the world, its actions have to match its worlds.
I'll probably get blasted by others for this too, but honestly, I've got a problem with the government's position of trying to be the center of all the world's Light. Ever since WW2, we've been like the high school jock who made the winning field goal and suddenly expects everyone to kiss their feet and pay attention to them. We've pushed others aside, stated "we are as you should be" and started mettling in everyone's business. Sure, we've had good intentions trying to do good in the world, and some of it was even unquestionably necessary, but as you stated, so much of the last 80 odd years has been dipped in hypocrisy it almost doesn't matter what good we do. We're policing the world, telling everyone what to do and how to do it when we can't even get our own country in order. It's spread us dangerously thin and painted a target on our back.

Above nearly all else, I'd much prefer if we re-evaluated our place and purpose in the global community and revisited some of our isolationist ideals.

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Old 04-27-2013, 06:21 AM   #107
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There's nothing wrong with any superpower at least trying to be heroic and noble.

I wouldn't feel comfortable with such a monolithic and far reaching concept otherwise.

A moral corrupt superpower could easily devolve into a China like police state or even a dystopic Nazi regime.

History has taught us the price of an entire nation losing it's moral compass and the price is no less than Hell on Earth.

If thousands die because we refused to torture someone, it will be a tragedy and our very souls will weep, but at least we can continue to move forward and keep our souls and sacred values intact.

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Old 04-27-2013, 06:30 AM   #108
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and I also have no problem making torture synonymous with rape.

If you think about it: Torture is rape and rape is torture.

The victim still feels helpless and powerless while being tormented in terrifying ways, it doesn't matter what your goals are. It doesn't make these acts any more noble or justified because you have unofficially become a terrorist yourself.

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Old 04-27-2013, 07:06 AM   #109
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Morality, principles, decency, etc. is all relative. There are no hard and fast rules of what is and what isn't moral.

I don't agree with torture because it doesn't work as an interrogation technique.

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Old 04-27-2013, 08:02 AM   #110
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Morality, principles, decency, etc. is all relative. There are no hard and fast rules of what is and what isn't moral.

I don't agree with torture because it doesn't work as an interrogation technique.
Morality may be subjective but the golden rule isn't and I believe it's the foundation for all moral beliefs for good reason.

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Old 04-27-2013, 08:48 AM   #111
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"Do unto others as you would have them do to you" makes a large assumption in the value of other people.

Personally, I'm more or less indifferent to things that don't concern me or people within two degrees of knowing me. Outside that circle, they're too far removed for me to see a point in taking the effort to care.

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Old 04-27-2013, 09:15 AM   #112
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"Do unto others as you would have them do to you" makes a large assumption in the value of other people.
It assumes they aren't masochist but little less.

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Personally, I'm more or less indifferent to things that don't concern me or people within two degrees of knowing me. Outside that circle, they're too far removed for me to see a point in taking the effort to care.
How does that apply to rules of law that apply to everyone, including you?

Or were you referring to the golden rule?

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Old 04-27-2013, 11:27 AM   #113
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You would only need to read a person his Miranda rights if you want to use anything he says against him in court and remember, he was held under arrest for more than two days (they arrested him on a Friday and charged him on a Monday). The fact that they read him his rights means they plan to prosecute him and that he probably knew nothing more about activities that would have posed an eminent danger to Americans at large.
That is such ******** dnno1, he had just begun to talk about a NYC Timesquare plot...he was talking, and from reports pretty extensively. They only needed to wait 48 hours. Holder had to ok the judge to walk in on them. The FBI was not given a heads up....totally wrong, and you can draw it anyway you want, probably to make sure this administration comes out like a rose, but under any administration this is crap.

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Old 04-27-2013, 02:01 PM   #114
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That is such ******** dnno1, he had just begun to talk about a NYC Timesquare plot...he was talking, and from reports pretty extensively. They only needed to wait 48 hours. Holder had to ok the judge to walk in on them. The FBI was not given a heads up....totally wrong, and you can draw it anyway you want, probably to make sure this administration comes out like a rose, but under any administration this is crap.
Don't be rediculous, Kel. The NYC Time Square plot was already foiled. One of the plotters is dead and the other is in custody waiting to be tried. What other information do you think they could have obtained when they already determined that these guys acted alone? You shouldn't believe the hype that once a person is read their rights that they stop talking completely. There are other means of getting more information from a suspect (like levying a heavier sentence if they don't talk or a lighter one if they do). Right now this guy is facing the death penalty. If he really wants to live and knows something about some future attacks that he isn't involved in, then I am sure he will give up his Fifth Amendment right and say something about it.

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Old 04-27-2013, 04:45 PM   #115
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Don't be rediculous, Kel. The NYC Time Square plot was already foiled. One of the plotters is dead and the other is in custody waiting to be tried. What other information do you think they could have obtained when they already determined that these guys acted alone? You shouldn't believe the hype that once a person is read their rights that they stop talking completely. There are other means of getting more information from a suspect (like levying a heavier sentence if they don't talk or a lighter one if they do). Right now this guy is facing the death penalty. If he really wants to live and knows something about some future attacks that he isn't involved in, then I am sure he will give up his Fifth Amendment right and say something about it.
They have already figured out that the mechanisms in the two bombs were not the same as what you can get off of the internet, where did they get them, where did they learn to build them, are their other bombs, were there other people involved....NOW HE HAS A LAWYER AND HAS LAWYERED UP simply because Holder could not wait another few hours....that is ********, and he needs to get the hell out of that office and take a few with him.....etc.

The FBI agents ON THE SCENE SAID, they were not finished by a long shot. And again, who the **** cares if they questioned him a few more hours to make the full 48 hour time period. THIS ****ING ADMINISTRATION that wanted to make damn sure that he was not set as an "enemy combatant" which you CAN DO without the military. They didn't want that to happen.

Sorry to have gotten off base......back to the subject.

No, the Boston Bomber should not be tortured to gain information....

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Old 04-27-2013, 05:31 PM   #116
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It does seem however that his older brother was the ringleader.

If that is the case, what information he may have will be rather limited.

If the older brother made the bombs, then he's little more than a glorified crony.

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Old 04-27-2013, 05:34 PM   #117
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It does seem however that his older brother was the ringleader.

If that is the case, what information he may have will be rather limited.

If the older brother made the bombs, then he's little more than a glorified crony.
True...but what information is given, what is important, etc....is not for us to say or even speculate, we have absolutely no clue.

But when FBI agents say that they were given no heads up, only right in the middle of their 48 hours of questioning they legally had, a judge and the 19 year olds lawyer come waltzing into the room and shut the whole thing down....that smells, and it smells bad.

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Old 04-27-2013, 11:44 PM   #118
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They have already figured out that the mechanisms in the two bombs were not the same as what you can get off of the internet, where did they get them, where did they learn to build them, are their other bombs, were there other people involved....NOW HE HAS A LAWYER AND HAS LAWYERED UP simply because Holder could not wait another few hours....that is ********, and he needs to get the hell out of that office and take a few with him.....etc.

The FBI agents ON THE SCENE SAID, they were not finished by a long shot. And again, who the **** cares if they questioned him a few more hours to make the full 48 hour time period. THIS ****ING ADMINISTRATION that wanted to make damn sure that he was not set as an "enemy combatant" which you CAN DO without the military. They didn't want that to happen.

Sorry to have gotten off base......back to the subject.

No, the Boston Bomber should not be tortured to gain information....
The way I read it they used something akin to parts from a toy RC car remote to build the devices... Something (according to one Congressman) you could learn to build by reading Inspire magazine -- an online publication, meaning you can get it off the Internet. Investigators figured that out without having to question the suspects. Why should we violate someones rights for that?

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Old 04-28-2013, 07:34 AM   #119
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It assumes they aren't masochist but little less.



How does that apply to rules of law that apply to everyone, including you?

Or were you referring to the golden rule?
Referring to the golden rule.

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Old 04-28-2013, 08:16 AM   #120
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Referring to the golden rule.
Oh okay.

Well unless you're a complete hermit you are forced to interact with people often enough to be impacted by them to some degree.

I'd agrue it was in your best interest if they followed the golden rule at all times.

Unless you're a masochist.

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Old 04-28-2013, 08:23 AM   #121
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Actually it's in my best interest if everyone else follows it while I don't, but we're getting far too philosophical here.

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Old 04-28-2013, 09:02 AM   #122
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The way I read it they used something akin to parts from a toy RC car remote to build the devices... Something (according to one Congressman) you could learn to build by reading Inspire magazine -- an online publication, meaning you can get it off the Internet. Investigators figured that out without having to question the suspects. Why should we violate someones rights for that?
The fact is dnno1, they were within the law with the 48 hours, they were not violating ANYONE'S RIGHTS....they were well within the law. Why could the administration have not waited the full 48 hours? They were still questioning him, still getting information according to the FBI agents on site. They were not given the courtesy of being told that the judge and lawyer were coming, their superiors were not called and given a heads up, which is usually how it is done....I have a problem with that.

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Old 04-29-2013, 01:53 PM   #123
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I find it interesting that you gave me hell for telling another poster I wasn't going to read any more of your posts in a tired discussion in another forum, and here you've not only done the same, but are also being hostile and extraneous, despite constantly calling for more courteous and productive discussions on these boards. Overlord and MessiahDecoy are perfectly able to discuss this civilly (I appreciate that, btw!), so please don't pretend that your enmity is born from some laudable defense of morality. You just don't like what I have to say, can't respond to most of my points, and instead of walking away or attempting to reciprocate my civility in order to better understand each other, you respond by hurling insults, accusations, and please forgive me for being blunt, simply acting like a child. Like I said before, I'm MORE than willing to try and continue civil discussion, but if this is how you want to continue, you're more than welcome to; I've got an ignore button.
Sorry, I have been away for a while.

1) I have no idea who you are, other than the guy in this thread who advocates torture.

2) I don't have any 'emnity' towards you, I don't like what you have to say because you are advocating torture.

3) I haven't insulted you once. I have merely pointed out what torture is: a heinous interference with the person. It is evidently comparable to rape, because rape is often a tool in the torturer's toolbox.

4) I'm not sure where you think I have acted like a child. I think your naivety in believing in an 'acceptable' form of torture that will be confined to use against the baddies is a bit childish, but I have so far refrained from saying so.

Finally, you have not exactly started a discussion on our favourite flavours of ice cream. You cannot advance an argument that people's human rights should be withdrawn and that they should be subjected to treatment previously confined to police states, without expecting somebody to say 'boo' to you. I am sure that you are a nice enough guy, but I don't feel the need to wear kid gloves when telling you that I think your views are deplorable.

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Old 04-29-2013, 03:46 PM   #124
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I am perfectly fine with others expressing their distaste for my views - if I wasn't, I wouldn't have started such a controversial thread. But you have to bear in mind that for as deplorable as you think my "advocacy" of torture is, I find the opposing thought (desiring a false sense of morality is more important than innocent lives) to be equally as deplorable. We both share equal levels of disdain for the others opinion, and yet I'm one of the few here making any attempt to be civil in the discussion. Even though I strongly disagree and think your reasoning and focus is grossly misplaced, I acknowledge that the purpose of your beliefs - like my own - are well intentioned (to preserve morality/protect innocent lives - both are noble causes). It is out of respect for that intention, not the person or belief it's self that I try to discuss this civilly. If I (and others who share your view) can do it, surely you have the capacity to as well.

As far as rape goes, yes, I too, would absolutely consider rape to be torture, whether its the gestapo or a drunken frat boy. However, I have stated my case for what would be appropriate "torture" (http://tinyurl.com/d6tlvud); anything even remotely considered rape is no where on that radar. You state that since I advocate water-boarding a terrorist as an absolute last resort, I also advocate rape. That is an insult to me as well as (and more importantly) rape victims, as water-boarding is no where near the level of horror of rape. The two might be under the same banner of "torture", but they are in no way similar to each other in their use, purpose, victims, psychological, physical and temporal degrees (among others). THAT is why I take offense, because it is a gross generalization, accusation, and in my mind, reduction of the severity of the crime in an effort to insult someone you disagree with. But that's all I'm going to say on the topic, I have no desire to discuss rape further.

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Old 04-29-2013, 04:13 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
You state that since I advocate water-boarding a terrorist as an absolute last resort, I also advocate rape.
No, I don't. I have stated that 'torture' is equally as heinous as rape, and that the two are often intermixed. So, as a matter of opinion, I think your stance is every bit as morally repugnant as condoning rape. But I am not making an assertion of fact that you have advocated rape.

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