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View Poll Results: Should we torture US terrorists if needed?
Yes - Saving innocent lives is worth it 9 21.43%
No - Torture is a moral line we cannot cross 23 54.76%
I'm not sure 1 2.38%
Only in the most dire of circumstances 8 19.05%
I don't want to know about it! 1 2.38%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-07-2013, 01:54 AM   #151
The Overlord
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
I think you miss the point. Is it hypocritical for a group of nations to look at a dictatorship and say "No, you're bad news, we don't want you having nukes"? The global community NEEDS to regulate who does what based on the quality of each country. That isn't hypocrisy. That isn't to say hypocrisy does not exist in the global theater - it certainly does.
Except someone like Noam Chomsky would say the US shouldn't have nuclear arms either, so some people do think the US' policy on nuclear arms is hypocritical.

I mean is it okay for the US government to talk about freedom and then support scum bag dictatorships like the Saudi Monarchy? When does hypocrisy become a bad thing on the world stage?


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Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
Like with all things - especially war - it's relative. Simple as that. Had Japan won, history would look at them in a different light.
That goes back back to my point about morality, so Japan won, would that water boarding of US POWs have okay in your eyes, if Japan had own, because they were the victor make all of that okay in your eyes? That is the thing about having recent universal moral standards, it prevents the world from becoming a cruel place where the strong impose their will on the weak. I think when you start throwing out basic moral principals and then say its okay for the US to use torture, you inadvertently invite that world view back. If its okay for the US to use torture, why is not okay for other countries to use torture? Its opening pandora's box.


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Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
Terrorism is a global threat. It's not only about killing as many civilians as possible, but its also about upsetting the balance of power, tearing down economies, and in cases like in the middle-east, overthrowing the government to create countries that allow for terrorist networks to flourish. Yes, guns may kill more people on any given day, but terrorism in general is a much larger problem with far graver consequences..
So far more Americans killed in gun violence then in terrorism, isn't a grave consequence? Its not even a close race, gun violence has killed way more Americans then terrorism ever had: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...mbs-us-gun-law

Also how does torturing American citizens prevent terrorist attacks in the Middle East? How does torture deal with terrorism in an effective way? The governments in the Middle East use torture all the time, they still have problems with terrorism? Arguments about how torturing Americans citizens "makes us safer" don't deal with the the root causes of terrorism: oppressive governments in that region, lack of opportunities, political instability in the Middle East due to ongoing conflicts, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
I never said they couldn't.
But it doesn't seem like you are addressing that in a meaningful way. You are saying the government should have oversight when using torture, but how that be enforced.


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Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
You answer your own question below:



I also think you vastly underestimate the government's ability to figure out if someone is a terrorist. But like you point out, mistakes can happen, which is the reason for the oversight I mentioned earlier.
Except if the government doesn't have afford an enemy combatant with the same rights as a citizen, why would it bother with such oversight? It seems like you are giving the government the benefit of the doubt in this issue and I see no reason to do so.

Really if the government can screw up the intel on Iraq and cause a pointless war that kills thousands, why I trust them to determine who is a terrorist or not? If the government screws up the big things, why would they get the small things right?

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Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
I'm not a conservative, actually.
Perhaps not, but I assume you are some sort of right winger and my point stands, many right wingers seem to have no trust for the government on domestic front, but seem to have almost absolute faith in the government to do whatever it wants internationally.

The US government has often acted immoral and incompetent on the world stage and I think the CIA overthrowing democratically elected governments has taken away more people's freedom then any gun control bill has. Why should the government be given the benefit of the doubt on these issues?

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Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
There are some things the government does very well. Some things the government doesn't do so well. That being said, this question is one that is asked countless times over and applies to FAR more topics than this one. Show me a government that people feel can be trusted in every aspect, and I'll show you an Orwellian nightmare..
What does the government do well? Because the US government has screwed up a lot on the international stage. The CIA has a term called "blow back" describing how their actions have created new enemies in the past. Why should the US government's domestic polices be constantly challenged, but their foreign affairs polices should just be given a blank check?

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Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
You can think that all you want, but trust me: if this were based more on emotion, my thoughts on torture would be a lot more savage. My opinion is based on one simple thought: stopping physical/emotional damage or death of ONE innocent person caused by terrorism is worth FAR more than the life of a terrorist. You can disagree all you want, but I find THAT to be morally/ethically right.
But who decides who is a terrorist or not? Is it always an open and shut case?


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Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
I never said you couldn't nor that you shouldn't. That's the entire point of this thread.



There's always going to be questions regarding it for a plethora of reasons. The fact that effectiveness can be questioned by those who are against it isn't enough to qualify dismissal (it goes both ways). And honestly, yes, some of the questions are totally valid, which is half the reason why I'm not calling for unrestricted use of torture techniques, whether its water boarding or blaring the theme song to Barney. .
But if you are going to challenge gun control polices based questions on whether they are effect or not, why don't the same arguments apply to torture?

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Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
Also, once again, I do not believe that it is a violation of the 8th Amendment for the reasons mentioned in my previous post.
Is there anywhere in the 8th Amendment, that states there can be exceptions to subjecting people to cruel and unusual treatment? If not, then you are proposing a violation of the 8th Amendment.

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Originally Posted by Spider-Who? View Post
I'm curious, what do the people who are against this feel about the death penalty? Or of Obama's drone strikes of suspected terrorists that almost always kill civilians - no arrest and trial; just an immediate death sentence with loss of innocent life? How is none of that worse than water boarding a known terrorist in an extreme situation? I've asked about the drone strikes several times here, but on one offers any thoughts, which says a lot to me. The moral ambiguity here is startling.
I think you are making assumptions, I neither support the death penalty or the drone strikes and just because I like Obama better then anyone the GOP has, doesn't mean I love him and support all his policies, that type of devotion would mark me a fool. Its not like the GOP would get rid of the death penalty or drone strikes either.


Last edited by The Overlord; 05-07-2013 at 02:19 AM.
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:40 AM   #152
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

Just want to point out that this isn't a left/right rebate. All wise people oppose torture, regardless of how they vote.

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Old 05-07-2013, 12:09 PM   #153
The Overlord
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Just want to point out that this isn't a left/right rebate. All wise people oppose torture, regardless of how they vote.
Except Many Neo Cons are trying to turn it into a left vs. right debate and see it that way. Look at Fox News, the talking heads there say they look the constitution and then talk about the need to torture people.

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