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View Poll Results: Should we torture US terrorists if needed?
Yes - Saving innocent lives is worth it 16 25.00%
No - Torture is a moral line we cannot cross 35 54.69%
I'm not sure 1 1.56%
Only in the most dire of circumstances 11 17.19%
I don't want to know about it! 1 1.56%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-07-2013, 02:54 AM   #151
The Overlord
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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I think you miss the point. Is it hypocritical for a group of nations to look at a dictatorship and say "No, you're bad news, we don't want you having nukes"? The global community NEEDS to regulate who does what based on the quality of each country. That isn't hypocrisy. That isn't to say hypocrisy does not exist in the global theater - it certainly does.
Except someone like Noam Chomsky would say the US shouldn't have nuclear arms either, so some people do think the US' policy on nuclear arms is hypocritical.

I mean is it okay for the US government to talk about freedom and then support scum bag dictatorships like the Saudi Monarchy? When does hypocrisy become a bad thing on the world stage?


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Like with all things - especially war - it's relative. Simple as that. Had Japan won, history would look at them in a different light.
That goes back back to my point about morality, so Japan won, would that water boarding of US POWs have okay in your eyes, if Japan had own, because they were the victor make all of that okay in your eyes? That is the thing about having recent universal moral standards, it prevents the world from becoming a cruel place where the strong impose their will on the weak. I think when you start throwing out basic moral principals and then say its okay for the US to use torture, you inadvertently invite that world view back. If its okay for the US to use torture, why is not okay for other countries to use torture? Its opening pandora's box.


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Terrorism is a global threat. It's not only about killing as many civilians as possible, but its also about upsetting the balance of power, tearing down economies, and in cases like in the middle-east, overthrowing the government to create countries that allow for terrorist networks to flourish. Yes, guns may kill more people on any given day, but terrorism in general is a much larger problem with far graver consequences..
So far more Americans killed in gun violence then in terrorism, isn't a grave consequence? Its not even a close race, gun violence has killed way more Americans then terrorism ever had: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...mbs-us-gun-law

Also how does torturing American citizens prevent terrorist attacks in the Middle East? How does torture deal with terrorism in an effective way? The governments in the Middle East use torture all the time, they still have problems with terrorism? Arguments about how torturing Americans citizens "makes us safer" don't deal with the the root causes of terrorism: oppressive governments in that region, lack of opportunities, political instability in the Middle East due to ongoing conflicts, etc.


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I never said they couldn't.
But it doesn't seem like you are addressing that in a meaningful way. You are saying the government should have oversight when using torture, but how that be enforced.


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You answer your own question below:



I also think you vastly underestimate the government's ability to figure out if someone is a terrorist. But like you point out, mistakes can happen, which is the reason for the oversight I mentioned earlier.
Except if the government doesn't have afford an enemy combatant with the same rights as a citizen, why would it bother with such oversight? It seems like you are giving the government the benefit of the doubt in this issue and I see no reason to do so.

Really if the government can screw up the intel on Iraq and cause a pointless war that kills thousands, why I trust them to determine who is a terrorist or not? If the government screws up the big things, why would they get the small things right?

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I'm not a conservative, actually.
Perhaps not, but I assume you are some sort of right winger and my point stands, many right wingers seem to have no trust for the government on domestic front, but seem to have almost absolute faith in the government to do whatever it wants internationally.

The US government has often acted immoral and incompetent on the world stage and I think the CIA overthrowing democratically elected governments has taken away more people's freedom then any gun control bill has. Why should the government be given the benefit of the doubt on these issues?

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There are some things the government does very well. Some things the government doesn't do so well. That being said, this question is one that is asked countless times over and applies to FAR more topics than this one. Show me a government that people feel can be trusted in every aspect, and I'll show you an Orwellian nightmare..
What does the government do well? Because the US government has screwed up a lot on the international stage. The CIA has a term called "blow back" describing how their actions have created new enemies in the past. Why should the US government's domestic polices be constantly challenged, but their foreign affairs polices should just be given a blank check?

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You can think that all you want, but trust me: if this were based more on emotion, my thoughts on torture would be a lot more savage. My opinion is based on one simple thought: stopping physical/emotional damage or death of ONE innocent person caused by terrorism is worth FAR more than the life of a terrorist. You can disagree all you want, but I find THAT to be morally/ethically right.
But who decides who is a terrorist or not? Is it always an open and shut case?


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I never said you couldn't nor that you shouldn't. That's the entire point of this thread.



There's always going to be questions regarding it for a plethora of reasons. The fact that effectiveness can be questioned by those who are against it isn't enough to qualify dismissal (it goes both ways). And honestly, yes, some of the questions are totally valid, which is half the reason why I'm not calling for unrestricted use of torture techniques, whether its water boarding or blaring the theme song to Barney. .
But if you are going to challenge gun control polices based questions on whether they are effect or not, why don't the same arguments apply to torture?

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Also, once again, I do not believe that it is a violation of the 8th Amendment for the reasons mentioned in my previous post.
Is there anywhere in the 8th Amendment, that states there can be exceptions to subjecting people to cruel and unusual treatment? If not, then you are proposing a violation of the 8th Amendment.

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I'm curious, what do the people who are against this feel about the death penalty? Or of Obama's drone strikes of suspected terrorists that almost always kill civilians - no arrest and trial; just an immediate death sentence with loss of innocent life? How is none of that worse than water boarding a known terrorist in an extreme situation? I've asked about the drone strikes several times here, but on one offers any thoughts, which says a lot to me. The moral ambiguity here is startling.
I think you are making assumptions, I neither support the death penalty or the drone strikes and just because I like Obama better then anyone the GOP has, doesn't mean I love him and support all his policies, that type of devotion would mark me a fool. Its not like the GOP would get rid of the death penalty or drone strikes either.


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Old 05-07-2013, 12:40 PM   #152
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

Just want to point out that this isn't a left/right rebate. All wise people oppose torture, regardless of how they vote.

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Old 05-07-2013, 01:09 PM   #153
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Just want to point out that this isn't a left/right rebate. All wise people oppose torture, regardless of how they vote.
Except Many Neo Cons are trying to turn it into a left vs. right debate and see it that way. Look at Fox News, the talking heads there say they look the constitution and then talk about the need to torture people.

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Old 12-09-2014, 12:49 PM   #154
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

Today, revisiting this thread seems timely.

The Sentate's Intelligence Committee has reported that the US tortured al-Qaeda suspects, that the torture was brutal, that little or no information of utility was extracted, and that the CIA lied about it. The Chairwoman described this as a "stain on US history".

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Old 12-09-2014, 01:22 PM   #155
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

This isn't news though. It's like the Snowden thing, we've known about this for a while now. It's just reruns at this point.


(Also, I wondered why this showed up in my subscribed threads, so I went back and realized that I was just messing around and forgot about it. I've been on here far too long.)

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Old 12-09-2014, 04:40 PM   #156
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Torture is inexcusable.

You make someone so miserable in hopes they give you information while they are at your mercy.

It's evil and we wouldn't want it done to people on our side.

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Old 12-09-2014, 05:12 PM   #157
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Decent human beings wouldn't want it done to anybody, hopefully.

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Old 12-09-2014, 05:55 PM   #158
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

Damn, I wish this was a public poll.

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Old 12-09-2014, 08:03 PM   #159
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

Why?

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Old 12-09-2014, 08:05 PM   #160
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

Though I think that the use of torture is wrong, and I am a fan of Feinstein, I do not believe her argument of it goes against the Geneva Convention is correct.

When our Team Six, etc, go into countries under cover and infiltrate organizations etc without being in uniform, they are no longer under the Geneva Convention. So that really is not a viable argument in this case. Other than that, just shouldn't be done, but come up with a better argument.

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Old 12-09-2014, 08:09 PM   #161
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**** the Geneva Convention. It's not worth the paper it's written on. The only enemy the US has fought in recent history that closely adhered to it was Nazi Germany.

But US Law forbids torture. So, yeah, who's going to jail?

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Old 12-09-2014, 08:23 PM   #162
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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**** the Geneva Convention. It's not worth the paper it's written on. The only enemy the US has fought in recent history that closely adhered to it was Nazi Germany.

But US Law forbids torture. So, yeah, who's going to jail?
Nazi, Germany (German Gestapo) actually used water boarding quite extensively. But, the treatment of Prisoners of War as we see them today didn't come into effect until 1949.

Law states torture, but it not really specific about "what is torture"....which is where the problem comes. Under what the US called torture and what is not torture, up until Obama.....what happened to McCain would have not been torture. It's all bad in my view....and though I stand very strongly on the fact that Americans should know what is being done in their name....I'm not sure this information coming out will do anything good. The best thing is to simply, stop torturing people, and be done. This looks like political crapola, and though I am all for transparency, I hate political crapola.

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Old 12-09-2014, 08:42 PM   #163
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Nazi, Germany (German Gestapo) actually used water boarding quite extensively. But, the treatment of Prisoners of War as we see them today didn't come into effect until 1949.

Law states torture, but it not really specific about "what is torture"....which is where the problem comes. Under what the US called torture and what is not torture, up until Obama.....what happened to McCain would have not been torture. It's all bad in my view....and though I stand very strongly on the fact that Americans should know what is being done in their name....I'm not sure this information coming out will do anything good. The best thing is to simply, stop torturing people, and be done. This looks like political crapola, and though I am all for transparency, I hate political crapola.
1) torture is publicly exposed
2) public is ashamed and outraged
3) ???
4) all forms of torture are officially outlawed

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Old 12-09-2014, 10:00 PM   #164
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

5)torture still goes on, and isn't spoken about

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Old 12-10-2014, 05:47 AM   #165
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That's always a likelihood, but no reason that it shouldn't be prohibited by the fullest force of the law. Rape and murder are, after all, illegal, but they still occur.

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Old 12-10-2014, 07:04 AM   #166
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That's always a likelihood, but no reason that it shouldn't be prohibited by the fullest force of the law. Rape and murder are, after all, illegal, but they still occur.
I agree. However, I dont think SuperFerret was suggesting that it shouldn't be prohibited by the fullest force of the law.

The difference between the illegality and prosecution of rape crimes, and the use of torture by the U.S., is that it is our government--the body that determined the illegality and punitive implications of using torture--are for all intents and purposes the ones doing the torturing. The chances are slim that the public ever even hears about most of the instances in which their government used torture--and virtually zero chance that any of our government members responsible will ever truly be brought to justice.

No one is going to be in a position to prosecute them, and I doubt those resposible will be quick to throw themselves on their swords due to moral uprightness or contrition.

Another case of us having to trust the fox guarding the hen house.


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Old 12-10-2014, 07:13 AM   #167
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Which is a problem emanating from the treatment of suspected terrorists as an invisible other to be processed out of sight and it off mind.

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Old 12-10-2014, 07:44 AM   #168
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Absolutely.

But of course...if the powers that be feel moved to get rid of all off site secret prisons and enforce transparency/due process for all...then they wouldn't have had the depravity to use torture as a "tool" in the first place.

So I would say the problem doesn't truly stem from the treatment of terrorist suspects as invisible--but instead rampant nepotism. It seems to me that our way of processing dangerous suspects out of sight out of mind, came about to fill a need for our goverment to be able to, when the need arises, do anything we feel we need to without consequence or public knowledge--just in case.
That need will sadly probably always be there, and as such I don't think there will ever be a time when governments don't have an "anything goes" sanctuary in their back pocket, hidden away from the public.

So my thing is, while I agree we need to get rid of the policies you were alluding to, I don't think that will really change anything one iota.

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Old 12-10-2014, 08:53 AM   #169
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Isn't torture considered a war crime? Or is that only during war?
I'm pretty sure that's a crime in some form

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Old 12-10-2014, 09:22 AM   #170
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

Things like waterboarding which US officials now claim with straight faces are not torture, were war crimes when the Japanese and North Vietnamese did them to American POWs during WWII and Vietnam, or when Klaus Barbie did it to French Resistance during WWII.

It's either a war crime when everyone does it, or it's not a war crime. We can't keep having it both ways and holding ourselves above the standards we give everyone else.

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Old 12-10-2014, 09:33 AM   #171
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In the most technical sense these aren't POW but detainees and as such are subject to an array of interrogation tactics that most would consider unethical.

The mentality behind it is that the detainees ideology promotes something so awful and dangerous to society that any form of "aggressive interrogation" tactics are ok to implement regardless of efficiency. It essentially becomes a preemptive intimidation tactic to dissuade terrorist groups out there.

No amount of uproar or public disapproval will ever stop intelligence agencies from engaging in this sort of thing.

The whole thing is unfortunate but alas, c'est la vie.

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Old 12-10-2014, 03:08 PM   #172
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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This isn't news though. It's like the Snowden thing, we've known about this for a while now. It's just reruns at this point.


(Also, I wondered why this showed up in my subscribed threads, so I went back and realized that I was just messing around and forgot about it. I've been on here far too long.)
Snowden was a bit sadder, because that dude did the right thing...and nobody gave a ****. Apathy seemingly wins.

I can say that I was genuinely surprised by some stuff in the new report.

The level of incompetence is surprising. I'm more and more convinced every day that storytellers give many of our institutions way more credit than they deserve in competence and capabilities.

And the anal rape with a water hose where they fed people water and...pasta? That. Was. Crazy.

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Old 12-10-2014, 03:21 PM   #173
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I think the incompetence you speak of is another symptom of the lack of scrutiny.

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Old 12-10-2014, 05:55 PM   #174
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I think the incompetence you speak of is another symptom of the lack of scrutiny.
I dunno...I mean, apparently there was scrutiny within the CIA about putting a junior CIA operative who'd never worked overseas to be in charge of one of the blacksites, Blacksite Cobalt I believe. Going so far as saying he "lacked honesty, judgement, and maturity". And it was ignored, and he was made warden of that blacksite. He apparently wound up breaking even the protocol they'd set, and gone off book in some cases. Couldn't have been a surprise when a detainee wound dying (I think you could say he was killed by us) because of him. The detainee had been interrogated, and forced to lie on cold concrete naked later died of pneumonia.

There's strange stuff, too. Like having CIA operatives, the ones who are doing the work, tell command that they believe a subject is telling the truth and does not have any more information...to be told that the subject saying they don't know anymore is proof they do know something, and to go at them harder.

But, I think you're right. With little to no scrutiny, is any wonder they ****ed up so much? Not only what they did was wrong, but they managed to find a way be screw ups within that margin doing something wrong.

I get very nervous about the justification of all this, too. Going down the "they were just following orders" route is a slippery slope. German soldiers were "just following orders" at one point too...that doesn't absolve the heinous actions committed.


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Old 12-10-2014, 07:22 PM   #175
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Default Re: Torture of US Citizens - Yes or No?

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Snowden was a bit sadder, because that dude did the right thing...and nobody gave a ****. Apathy seemingly wins.

I can say that I was genuinely surprised by some stuff in the new report.

The level of incompetence is surprising. I'm more and more convinced every day that storytellers give many of our institutions way more credit than they deserve in competence and capabilities.

And the anal rape with a water hose where they fed people water and...pasta? That. Was. Crazy.
Way too over the top, this sick, perverse **** doesn't happen IRL.

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