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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
Hate it! 104 41.27%
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:59 AM   #101
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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Originally Posted by R_Hythlodeus View Post
Of course it is. But people are complaining about trailers that DON'T GIVE AWAY THE PLOT TWIST OF THE MOVIE. some of those are the same people that were complaining that TRAILERS ALWAYS GIVE EVERYTHING AWAY. One has to adapt to that level of idiocy if one wants to communicate with them.
I think you're missing the point of peoples angst. Let me put it this way. Everything about The Mandarin leading up to the film, and including the film itself was building up to what looked like being a memorable villain. Why are people pissed? Because they wanted a new named etched into villainy folklore. Whether people want to admit it or not fans have secretly longed for an adversary for Iron Man, most probably didn't even know it until now after this film. Here you have this great charismatic hero and yet he has no arch nemesis, and the thing about arch nemesis' are they help define a character, even go so far as to cement the characters place in history. The greatest heroes in folklore have always had a villain that challenges them to their limits, Batman, James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Sherlock Holmes, Robin Hood, Beowulf, Odysseus, the list goes on, and that's where the angst comes from. Everything was pointing toward Iron Man having a name to add to that list but what we got instead was more of a deconstruction of what a villain is. That's a concept that's perfectly fine to try, but the question is is this the type of movie to be doing it in? It's not about who is and who isn't the Mandarin, that's just a name, and most of us can agree what happens in the film works in context, the issue is it comes at a cost and it's jarring. You can't blame people for feeling let down, because their hopes were high for Iron Man to finally have a genuine adversary that will linger in peoples minds for years, if not decades later on. IM3 is still the RDJ show, but fans want more from the series even if they didn't know it before this film came out.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:00 AM   #102
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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Originally Posted by Norek View Post
How unbelievably ignorant (or should I add arrogant) of you to say.

Even people who gave this movie a 10/10 and called it perfect acknowledged how misleading the trailers and promotion were, and now you want to say that people are idiots for falling for the marketing and liking something that was promised, but getting something entirely different and thus being disappointed because of it?
no, that's not what I said. Try to reread

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:01 AM   #103
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

I haven't made a final judgement on the movie as a whole yet, but I do know this about the Mandarin.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
As soon as I saw him drunkenly stumble out of the bathroom, I knew the SuperHeroHype boards were going to be set ablaze by the furious typing of fanboys.... and that excites the **** out of me. For what it's worth, I personally enjoyed being tricked and how the Mandarin ultimately turned out.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:11 AM   #104
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

1. I'm pretty sure Mr.Clean has a wife

2. If he wants to bodybuild, he's gonna need to work on his quads ASAP

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:12 AM   #105
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

Before the reveal I loved it, after i was kinda disappointed.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:12 AM   #106
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmc View Post
I think you're missing the point of peoples angst. Let me put it this way. Everything about The Mandarin leading up to the film, and including the film itself was building up to what looked like being a memorable villain. Why are people pissed? Because they wanted a new named etched into villainy folklore. Whether people want to admit it or not fans have secretly longed for an adversary for Iron Man, most probably didn't even know it until now after this film. Here you have this great charismatic hero and yet he has no arch nemesis, and the thing about arch nemesis' are they help define a character, even go so far as to cement the characters place in history. The greatest heroes in folklore have always had a villain that challenges them to their limits, Batman, James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Sherlock Holmes, Robin Hood, Beowulf, Odysseus, the list goes on, and that's where the angst comes from. Everything was pointing toward Iron Man having a name to add to that list but what we got instead was more of a deconstruction of what a villain is. That's a concept that's perfectly fine to try, but the question is is this the type of movie to be doing it in?
obviously yes
Quote:
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It's not about who is and who isn't the Mandarin, that's just a name, and most of us can agree what happens in the film works in context, the issue is it comes at a cost and it's jarring. You can't blame people for feeling let down, because their hopes were high for Iron Man to finally have a genuine adversary that will linger in peoples minds for years, if not decades later on. IM3 is still the RDJ show, but fans want more from the series even if they didn't know it before this film came out.
Iron Man in the comics did very well for many decades without an iconic adversary. Yes, the Madarin came close, but he never was. Probably he was a bad concept to start with. I always felt that way about that character. I could accept that he was Iron Mans biggest foes in in his solo books, but it just was a poor concept of a villain.
The movie version actually upgraded the Mandarin to an analogy of our own prejudices. This is way more interesting than Fu Manchu ever was.

The point stands that the movie and the character wouldn't have worked THAT well without the plot twist. so to say that the trailers and the promotional material were misleading is still complaining about not having spoiled the whole twist in the trailers. ad I simply can't agree with that complain.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:24 AM   #107
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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Originally Posted by R_Hythlodeus View Post
obviously yes
Why yes? Feel free to explain why this was the movie to do it in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by R_Hythlodeus View Post

Iron Man in the comics did very well for many decades without an iconic adversary. Yes, the Madarin came close, but he never was. Probably he was a bad concept to start with. I always felt that way about that character. I could accept that he was Iron Mans biggest foes in in his solo books, but it just was a poor concept of a villain.
The movie version actually upgraded the Mandarin to an analogy of our own prejudices. This is way more interesting than Fu Manchu ever was.

The point stands that the movie and the character wouldn't have worked THAT well without the plot twist. so to say that the trailers and the promotional material were misleading is still complaining about not having spoiled the whole twist in the trailers. ad I simply can't agree with that complain.
It is misleading, because it makes it look like a completely different movie. It's one thing for a film to be not what you expected and throw in a surprise, it's another thing for it to completely blindside you. Look at everything about the lead up to the film and even in the film itself - the character is terrifying, his mannerisms, his voice, his actions, that's what people were hoping, even longing for. Now they are left with a bitter taste in their mouths because everything they wanted, hoped for was dashed all for a gag. And frankly, I'm sick of hearing the excuse that because Iron Man has never had a major villain that it's not important, bull ****, if Ben Kingsley 'villain' turned out to be who he looked in the trailer you, I and every other person whether they be a long time fan of the character or someone who's only seen films one and two would be talking about this being one of the best superhero villains ever on film.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:27 AM   #108
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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Why yes? Feel free to explain why this was the movie to do it in.




It is misleading, because it makes it look like a completely different movie. It's one thing for a film to be not what you expected and throw in a surprise, it's another thing for it to completely blindside you. Look at everything about the lead up to the film and even in the film itself - the character is terrifying, his mannerisms, his voice, his actions, that's what people were hoping, even longing for. Now they are left with a bitter taste in their mouths because everything they wanted, hoped for was dashed all for a gag. And frankly, I'm sick of hearing the excuse that because Iron Man has never had a major villain that it's not important, bull ****, if Ben Kingsley 'villain' turned out to be who he looked in the trailer you, I and every other person whether they be a long time fan of the character or someone who's only seen films one and two would be talking about this being one of the best superhero villains ever on film.
If you really think, this was 'all for a gag' than you seriously need to see the movie again. the twist was actually way more than that.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:28 AM   #109
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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Originally Posted by weezerspider View Post
Killian created the 10 Rings organization.
Killian was manipulating the world powers for his benefit
Killian created the name and persona 'The Mandarin' and was the brain behind him just like Tony Stark created the name and persona of 'Iron Man' and was the brain behind him. Killian controlled 'Mandarin' just like Tony controlled his Iron Man suit during the plane sequence. If Killian isn't The Mandarin, then most of this film, Tony wasn't Iron Man. AND thats the EXACT point of his final line: 'I am The Mandarin'. Its a direct parallel to the ending of Iron Man 1' I am Iron Man'. Killian wanted to seperate himself from the 'face of evil' he created, but he accepted that that was who he was all along. And like I said earlier, Pearce was very much like the Mandarin from the comics.
I agree with your points, I just would've preferred seeing the traditional version of the Character with Ten Rings power rather than an Extremis Killian. The way Kingsley portrayed the guise of The Mandarin on tv was menacing and was shaping up to be Darth Vader (The Empire Strikes Back) type of main adversary .


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Old 05-03-2013, 09:29 AM   #110
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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If you really think, this was 'all for a gag' than you seriously need to see the movie again. the twist was actually way more than that.
Dude, I understand the twist, put it was played for a laugh. Don't make out like it was this big dramatic revelation.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:33 AM   #111
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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Originally Posted by R_Hythlodeus View Post
The movie version actually upgraded the Mandarin to an analogy of our own prejudices. This is way more interesting than Fu Manchu ever was.
I can't believe people still continue to misunderstand where the disappointment factor stems for, and I can't say this enough but:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
People are disappointed because the Mandarin in the film didn't turn out to be a Fu Manchu racist caricature and a carbon copy of his comicbook counter part. - WRONG

People are disappointed because the Mandarin (as he was showcased in the trailers, promos and interviews) didn't turn out to be what he was promoted as, which was promising for those people. - THIS


People, pay attention to what's been said here! Stop putting words in other people's mouths for the sake of having your arguments against them work.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:48 AM   #112
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

I just give up

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:51 AM   #113
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

I loved it. And so did the 20 or so other people I was with. Regular non comic fans that is. No big mandarin fans in the group,

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:52 AM   #114
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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I just give up
Why don't you just acknowledge that it's understandable for people to feel annoyed by how it turned out? I mean, you can see where they are coming from can you not?

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:55 AM   #115
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

oh, I can acknowledge that. what I can't acknowledge is people complaining about the trailer not spoiling the movie. this is stupidity. pure and simple. everything else, I'm absolutely fine with.

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:55 AM   #116
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

How is the fu-manchu Mandarin racist exactly? It's definitely an exaggerated stereotype, but is it offensive?

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:00 AM   #117
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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How is the fu-manchu Mandarin racist exactly? It's definitely an exaggerated stereotype, but is it offensive?
In 1890ies London it certainly was...

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:02 AM   #118
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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The movie version actually upgraded the Mandarin to an analogy of our own prejudices.
Please don't say "our" - I'd feel included and I don't want to be included.

(You are, however, free to say "my"...)

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:02 AM   #119
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

I'm glad Mandarin wasn't in an Armored exo suit like some rumors had suggested in post-production. The confrontation between Stark & Extremis Killian was a great duel and in terms of the story it makes sense since Tony essentially created "His Own Personal Demons" back in his carefree selfish days prior to become Iron Man. So a total of 13 years waiting for revenge from Killian's perspective all the while ploting and mastermind from the shadows works in the characterization of The Mandarin.

Black essentially gave us two version of The Mandarin with a revamp. He gave us a make over version of the Traditional in Kingsley as the public guise and Killian as The Phantom Menace much like Emperor Palpatine/ Darth Sidious was in The Star Wars saga. I appreciate the attempt as a movie goer however as a comic book fanboy I'm slightly disappointed that we did get a full representation of the Mandarin as a hold.


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Old 05-03-2013, 10:03 AM   #120
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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oh, I can acknowledge that. what I can't acknowledge is people complaining about the trailer not spoiling the movie. this is stupidity. pure and simple. everything else, I'm absolutely fine with.
It's not about spoiling the movie, it's about presenting itself as something it isn't.

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:07 AM   #121
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

So dissapointed in this movie and there choice with the mandarin in this movie it was like a shot in the gut for me and my friend in the theater i feel the less you know the comics the more you'll like this movie

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:09 AM   #122
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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It's not about spoiling the movie, it's about presenting itself as something it isn't.
but there is no way around it. either you focus on Sir Ben or you focus on Killian or you are corrupting the movie for sake of a better representation in the promotional material.... To keep the story intact and to keep the twist intact, the trailers naturally focused on Kingsley. that's not a concept that's hard to understand...

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:15 AM   #123
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

I felt like the Mandarin reveal was really enjoyed by the mass audience, people that go in not really knowing anything about the Mandarin from the comics. The twist worked, but for people that knew kinda was disappointed.

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:16 AM   #124
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

I'll put this in the spoiler brackets.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Anything I think is an issue is that the twist has no emotional weight to it. It just turns out the guy we knew was working for the baddies early on in the film was actually the mastermind. Killian's relationship to Stark is flimsy at best, they meet once a dozen years earlier and have no real interaction throughout the movie to give any real meaning to the swicheroo. The character is also generic, he's basically a regular dude with no real personality, but given the context of the story he really couldn't be anymore than that, he had to play the straight man role to Trevor's over the top character. This is what makes Killian a second rate villain and the cause for much angst, because this film essentially is almost devoid of an adversary, the one we wanted to see turned out to be false, the one who was the mastermind is bland in comparison and has no attachment to Stark. If there was a more meaningful relationship between Stark and Killian, maybe old school friends or something, then it's a different story and one that might not cause as much trouble for people because the twist would have more weight to it.


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Old 05-03-2013, 10:21 AM   #125
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

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but there is no way around it. either you focus on Sir Ben or you focus on Killian or you are corrupting the movie for sake of a better representation in the promotional material.... To keep the story intact and to keep the twist intact, the trailers naturally focused on Kingsley. that's not a concept that's hard to understand...
It's equally not hard to understand people's angst. They could have focused on Stark instead and have the Mandarin be more of a mystery, instead he's the focus of the bloody trailers, Stark is calling him out, the Mandarin is promising mayhem, there's Ben Kingsley sitting like a boss in the posters, it's setting us up for an epic showdown. The problem is Marvel were so set about making it look like Iron Man had a genuine adversary they never bothered to think if they should actually give him one. And as I said above, the twist has no weight to it, which makes the marketing even worse.

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