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Old 05-03-2013, 05:27 PM   #26
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

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I don't know, I mean, I just really feel that there was more to the killian mandarin thing than we seem to think, I mean, the whole movie wasn't a story, it was a memory, told in a therapy environment...I think there may be some significance. I mean, the brain hacking thing Killian talking about, and stark telling a series of events as he remembers..I dunno, something fishy I feel may be going on.

All the masters may be reaching a little bit, or it may not be. But as far as tony's mental state goes, and the mandarin/killian go...I feel there is more to it than we think
Jaqua, I believe if there was, there should've been something in the narrative to suggest it.

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Old 05-03-2013, 05:45 PM   #27
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

I think it'd be hilarious if the Mandarin was pulling some Keyser Soze stunt as Trevor and then reveals himself as a mastermind villain and assembles the Masters of Evil in Avengers 2... the anti-twist fanboys will have their minds blown!

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Old 05-03-2013, 05:47 PM   #28
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

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Jaqua, I believe if there was, there should've been something in the narrative to suggest it.
I know, but if they wanted to pull a fast one with the Mandarin twist to begin with..IF what I suggestd WAS their intention, who's to say they wouldn't do it again, except keep it hidden?

Especially if there is a relationship between Hydra and AIM/mandarin/killian

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I think it'd be hilarious if the Mandarin was pulling some Keyser Soze stunt as Trevor and then reveals himself as a mastermind villain and assembles the Masters of Evil in Avengers 2... the anti-twist fanboys will have their minds blown!
That would actually be hysterical haha

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Old 05-03-2013, 06:03 PM   #29
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

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I know, but if they wanted to pull a fast one with the Mandarin twist to begin with..IF what I suggestd WAS their intention, who's to say they wouldn't do it again, except keep it hidden?

Especially if there is a relationship between Hydra and AIM/mandarin/killian
If that was the point then to me it is freaking pointless to keep it hidden through the ENTIRE movie and post-credit sequence.

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Old 05-03-2013, 06:31 PM   #30
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

I keep returning to Feige's description of the Mandarin as an ex-CIA Agent, Kurtz from Apocalypse Now, and find myself entertaining the idea that there is more to him in the film than we expect. First, I want to point the recurring plot strand and theme of illusion/identity:

a) Iron Patriot armor is hijacked and occupied by an Extremis Soldier, whom the President believes is Rhodey.
b) The Multi-Tiered Meta Effect with the Mandarin: Kingsley, a British actor, is playing a terrorist, who in the film, is a British actor, playing a terrorist.
c) Killian being the head of the Mandarin (and one of the actors who portrayed an Extremis soldier said that he saw Killian as the brain, the actor as the mouthpiece, and himself as the muscle.)
d) Tony's realization that he is a player in a much larger battlefield (hence the PTSD and flashback to Avengers.)
e) Tony's arc
f) the marketing material (namely the summary) bringing up the tension of Iron Man: does the suit make him, or he make the suit?

All of these highlight changing/uncertain/deceitful surfaces.
Plus, when we consider the advice to watch the film again, it suggests that there might be something more.

However, I am willing to admit that it might be misdirection, or if there is a scenario to be found, it might be as viable as Dark Side of Oz.

Either way, I enjoy the discussion the modification has created. It is way better than the traditional bickering over power levels (which I despise.)

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Old 05-03-2013, 07:15 PM   #31
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

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Old 05-03-2013, 07:36 PM   #32
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

I'm curious to how much interpretation or insight Joss Whedon gets when he reads the script for the Phase 2 films.

I've read Joss talk about how after he read the finale of IM3, he knew he had to step it up for Avengers 2.

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:30 PM   #33
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

Posters can call our theories ridiculous all they want. But we all speculate about things. Why is this any different? All I know is that all throughout Phase One, they teased "Avengers" and if I won't be at all surprised if Phase Two will be teasing "Masters."

It's quite obvious (to me anyway) they wouldn't be using the full "Masters of Evil" name in the MCU.

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Old 05-03-2013, 11:08 PM   #34
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

I think the seeds that IM3 planted were:

AIM

The "slot" in our heads where Extremis plugs in. It's a generic catch-all for all future superpowers, good or evil.

Roxxon Oil

The US Presidency. We know that CATWS takes place largely in Washington, DC; that Iron Patriot has at least a cameo in the movie; and that the Presidency is probably at stake at some point. We've seen President Ellis introduced, and a Vice-President who was blackmailed into a failed coup-d'etat by AIM. It is highly, highly likely that these events and characters will be referenced in CATWS. I fully expect to see Sadler reprise his role as Ellis.

When Killian does his nifty 3D holo-display of his brain to Pepper, there's a "throwaway" scene of the universe he "accidentally" shows first. Some observant viewers have already pegged the vfx as being identical to the "starmap" Red Skull brought up with the Tesseract at the end of CATFA. The studio isn't going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a meaningless "glitch" --- it is most likely a seed of more Cosmic Marvel. Perhaps AIM has designs on/ties with Very Bad Aliens somewhere out there.

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Old 05-03-2013, 11:36 PM   #35
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

yup there's a lot in this film we won't fully understand or see fleshed out until Cap2 or Avengers 2. Mostly the things Sam just said that I've believed as well this whole time. AIM, Brain Slot, President and VP, and that sneaky little Universe thing. I don't know if we'll ever see a form of "The Mandarin" return, it will be cool if something happens (it will need some lengthy explaining though) But if what we got is what we got from Mandarin I'm happy with that as well.

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Old 05-03-2013, 11:36 PM   #36
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

Good finds all...

The slot in the brain explains Wanda and Pietro pretty much, perhaps with some goading from some super science, or even a stabilized Extremis.

Agreed on the President playing big in Cap 2... he might not make it through Phase 2 though... he definitely won't make it past Avengers 2.

Roxxon is also associated with Lukin who is associated with the Winter Soldier storyline in the comics... I suspect we'll see Lukin in full effect in CATWS as opposed to a Zemo or whatever.

I really like that they're building up the world now... who's in it other than the superheroes and their girlfriends and SHIELD. Should be quite interesting going forward. I'm not sure how/if AIM will really show up again, as their CEO just asploded.

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Old 05-03-2013, 11:45 PM   #37
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

I'm going to post this is a few forums to try and get an answer, but does anyone know what the context of the Dowton Abbey scene is that is on at the Hospital when Happy is in there? Because the one writer said that it is important to the future, and I've never watched the show myself so I don't know the characters of the scene. Anyone help with that?

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Old 05-04-2013, 12:02 AM   #38
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

I thought the whole reference Killian made with his visual about "space" with Pepper would tie to Guardians? Tony would use his files from AIM to access that portion of MCU. maybe just looking into it too much...

edit: whoops noticed it was said above me too!

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Old 05-04-2013, 12:33 AM   #39
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

So... you're proposing that The Mandarin is a thought, and quite POSSIBLY... Black, Whedon, and others are proposing that Kingsley is pulling a Keyser Soze?

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Old 05-04-2013, 12:48 AM   #40
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

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So... you're proposing that The Mandarin is a thought, and quite POSSIBLY... Black, Whedon, and others are proposing that Kingsley is pulling a Keyser Soze?
YES! And a beautifully phrased analogy. I haven't seen that film in a very long time so I didnt think of it myself.

I think it's 100% possible, 66% probable. I figure its the only way to setup villains throughout phase 2 without hearing cries from fans that "IM3 WAS JUST A 2 HOUR COMMERCIAL FOR THE AVENGERS 2!"

Mandarin becomes a part of a much larger universe. We just don't know it yet.

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Old 05-04-2013, 01:01 AM   #41
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

In Avengers, Cap called Tony out for hiding behind his suit of armor. Thus this film had him coming out of his shell.

I wonder if Cap will perchance lose his strength in the sequel, to be a mortal man again and have to do all these feats, is that even possible?

Just seemed like it would fit.

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Old 05-04-2013, 01:05 AM   #42
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

The more I read this thread, the more I become convinced there are additional plans for the Mandarin.

However, I do have an inquiry for those who paid better attention than I did: was the individual who was 'executed' on television shown to be alive later in the film?

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Old 05-04-2013, 01:14 AM   #43
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

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The more I read this thread, the more I become convinced there are additional plans for the Mandarin.

However, I do have an inquiry for those who paid better attention than I did: was the individual who was 'executed' on television shown to be alive later in the film?
I dont remember seeing the victim later on. All I remember is him saying "green screens" and movie magic or w/e.

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Old 05-04-2013, 01:19 AM   #44
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

See the way I see it... Is that they knew they'd piss some people off. Thats just straight up fact. Some people are pissed, most of them are fans of the original Mandarin. So be it.

But now what? So you've still got your general audience. The GA is fine with everything that happened. Probably none-the-wiser in fact. But now what?

If they pull this Keyser Soze stunt, bring back the Mandarin, as he "should" be, possibly in Avengers 2, they BLAST the GA with a crazy twist of a twist from 2 years prior. OMG ITS TREVOR! HE is IS THE MANDARIN AGAIN?! Whaaaaaaaaat! Cool!

AND in the same fell swoop they save their alienated fanboys (me included). It's a win-win-win-win scenario. Fans win, the GA wins, Marvel wins, Ben Kingsley wins.

win win win win.

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Old 05-04-2013, 01:21 AM   #45
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

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So... you're proposing that The Mandarin is a thought, and quite POSSIBLY... Black, Whedon, and others are proposing that Kingsley is pulling a Keyser Soze?
Why would Kingsley/Trevor be pulling a Keyser Soze when Aldrich Killian was the one pulling a Keyser Soze....???

Trevor is exactly who he says he is --- a washed-up, wasted hack who AIM hired to play a made-up boogeyman to divert attention from their operations. Makes no sense that someone like that has any powers, or sinister backstory and motive, or would ever be able to somehow maneuver AIM into position to take any notice of him at all.

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Old 05-04-2013, 01:36 AM   #46
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

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Why would Kingsley/Trevor be pulling a Keyser Soze when Aldrich Killian was the one pulling a Keyser Soze....???

Trevor is exactly who he says he is --- a washed-up, wasted hack who AIM hired to play a made-up boogeyman to divert attention from their operations. Makes no sense that someone like that has any powers, or sinister backstory and motive, or would ever be able to somehow maneuver AIM into position to take any notice of him at all.
Man... sometimes I wonder about your ability to speculate.

My favorite way to explain it is have you ever seen the last episode of the BBC Sherlock? If you haven't basically Moriarty manages to convince everyone but Sherlock that Sherlock himself hired him to play a character named "Moriarty." Created a background, a fake identity of a washed up actor named Richard Brook. Almost even convinced Watson. and this is almost for no reason but to mess with Sherlock. It was a game.

If the Mandarin really needed a reason, he'd have plenty. He wants to get closer to Tony Stark, who has been meddling in the affairs of the ten rings. He wants to hurt Tony Stark, who has been meddling in the affairs of the ten rings. He wants Tony to think he doesn't exist. And now we all think The Mandarin doesn't exist... O_O

Killian himself, wants power. He's desperate and doesnt care how he gets it. So even he thinks he invented The Mandarin. We don't know Trevor was who he says he was. Perhaps one of The Mandarins many talents is lying and deceiving...? *gasp* and English accents.

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Old 05-04-2013, 01:53 AM   #47
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

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Man... sometimes I wonder about your ability to speculate.

My favorite way to explain it is have you ever seen the last episode of the BBC Sherlock? If you haven't basically Moriarty manages to convince everyone but Sherlock that Sherlock himself hired him to play a character named "Moriarty." Created a background, a fake identity of a washed up actor named Richard Brook. Almost even convinced Watson. and this is almost for no reason but to mess with Sherlock. It was a game.

If the Mandarin really needed a reason, he'd have plenty. He wants to get closer to Tony Stark, who has been meddling in the affairs of the ten rings. He wants to hurt Tony Stark, who has been meddling in the affairs of the ten rings. He wants Tony to think he doesn't exist. And now we all think The Mandarin doesn't exist... O_O

Killian himself, wants power. He's desperate and doesnt care how he gets it. So even he thinks he invented The Mandarin. We don't know Trevor was who he says he was. Perhaps one of The Mandarins many talents is lying and deceiving...? *gasp* and English accents.
How has Tony been "meddling" in the affairs of the Ten Rings....?

*They* started it. Stane hired them to kill Tony in Afghanistan, and Raza drafted him to build a weapon for him instead. That backfired on him and he got punished for it, by Stark *and* Stane.

And how would Trevor convince Tony he doesn't exist when he splatters himself across every TV and newspaper in the known world? That's the exact *opposite* of subtlety.

And where did you get power as Killian's motive? I don't think you understand that character at all....

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Old 05-04-2013, 02:00 AM   #48
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

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How has Tony been "meddling" in the affairs of the Ten Rings....?

*They* started it. Stane hired them to kill Tony in Afghanistan, and Raza drafted him to build a weapon for him instead. That backfired on him and he got punished for it, by Stark *and* Stane.

And how would Trevor convince Tony he doesn't exist when he splatters himself across every TV and newspaper in the known world? That's the exact *opposite* of subtlety.

And where did you get power as Killian's motive? I don't think you understand that character at all....
All right bud, we're done talking.

Learn some social skills. Even if its over the internet.

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Old 05-04-2013, 02:09 AM   #49
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

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See the way I see it... Is that they knew they'd piss some people off. Thats just straight up fact. Some people are pissed, most of them are fans of the original Mandarin. So be it.

But now what? So you've still got your general audience. The GA is fine with everything that happened. Probably none-the-wiser in fact. But now what?

If they pull this Keyser Soze stunt, bring back the Mandarin, as he "should" be, possibly in Avengers 2, they BLAST the GA with a crazy twist of a twist from 2 years prior. OMG ITS TREVOR! HE is IS THE MANDARIN AGAIN?! Whaaaaaaaaat! Cool!

AND in the same fell swoop they save their alienated fanboys (me included). It's a win-win-win-win scenario. Fans win, the GA wins, Marvel wins, Ben Kingsley wins.

win win win win.
LMAO, i like that

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Old 05-04-2013, 02:11 AM   #50
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Default Re: Iron Man 3: More than Meets the Eye...

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Originally Posted by jonathancrane View Post
The more I read this thread, the more I become convinced there are additional plans for the Mandarin.

However, I do have an inquiry for those who paid better attention than I did: was the individual who was 'executed' on television shown to be alive later in the film?
Yup, my gf saw that. The guy from Roxxon stood up during the credits scene, maybe he really didn't kill him. They're pulling a "if it's not shown on screen he/she is not dead" just like in the Walking Dead

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