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Old 05-04-2013, 05:25 PM   #1
TheFantasticJoe
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Default Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

Warning: The question I'm about to ask contains major spoilers for the ending of Iron Man 3.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
So, I saw a few arguments on other corners of the Internet in which the question of whether or not Killian survived was brought up. The logic being that if he was able to survive getting blown up, that there wouldn't be any reason why he couldn't survive what Pepper did to him as well. Now, I'm on the side that believes he's gone for good, but do you think there's a possibility that he survived and could potentially come back as the "true" Mandarin? Some wishful thinkers are saying that his return could potentially set up Masters of Evil.


What do you guys think?

Also, for the purposes of discussion, regarding the same question: Do you want Killian to return? Would you be willing to accept him as the "real" Mandarin?


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Old 05-04-2013, 05:34 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

He was wounded from the first explosion, the second explosion finished him off.

He's dead.

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Old 05-04-2013, 06:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

Killian is dead. If the mandarin returns it won't be in Guy Pearce's body.

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Old 05-04-2013, 06:23 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

I think that if Marvel want him back, they'll be able to bring him back from that. I think you're asking the wrong question though, I think you need to be asking do people want to see Guy Pearce come back as The Mandarin. Personally I would love to see Guy Pearce return as the Mandarin, he made an excellent Mandarin and now without the 'face of terror' to hide behind it would be interesting to see him go after Stark again.

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Old 05-04-2013, 06:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

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I think that if Marvel want him back, they'll be able to bring him back from that. I think you're asking the wrong question though, I think you need to be asking do people want to see Guy Pearce come back as The Mandarin. Personally I would love to see Guy Pearce return as the Mandarin, he made an excellent Mandarin and now without the 'face of terror' to hide behind it would be interesting to see him go after Stark again.
You're right, I suppose the question I started the thread with isn't much for discussion, so I'll go ahead and edit the OP to ask that, since I think you have a good idea here.

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Old 05-04-2013, 06:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFantasticJoe View Post
Warning: The question I'm about to ask contains major spoilers for the ending of Iron Man 3.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
So, I saw a few arguments on other corners of the Internet in which the question of whether or not Killian survived was brought up. The logic being that if he was able to survive getting blown up, that there wouldn't be any reason why he couldn't survive what Pepper did to him as well. Now, I'm on the side that believes he's gone for good, but do you think there's a possibility that he survived and could potentially come back as the "true" Mandarin? Some wishful thinkers are saying that his return could potentially set up Masters of Evil.


What do you guys think?

Also, for the purposes of discussion, regarding the same question: Do you want Killian to return? Would you be willing to accept him as the "real" Mandarin?
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

I want them to "fix" The Mandarin they created in the marketing. I hope they do that in a future film. And I think that they could/should and might do it by making The Mandarin one of the Masters [of Evil].

Killian as a vessel for The Mandarin's conception and as an amalgam of both Killian and Mallen from the Extremis comics is actually totally okay with me. And it was done pretty well. It's just that, among other things, The Mandarin can't be a one-off villain for Tony Stark. He is a nemesis. Not a joke.

If somehow Extremis allows The Mandarin to survive and return (preferrably in the body of Trevor) in a tasteful manner, or if The Mandarin returns in some other manner with the attitude/stature/menace he is shown to have in the trailers, then 90% of my problems with IM3 will be remedied.

Specifically, what I'm saying is that I want the iconic Mandarin image. Ideally the one we got in the trailers. But I'd be open to further interpretation. No I dont really want Guy Pearce to continue as "The Mandarin."

The Mandarin may never have been part of the MoE. But it makes sense to me to make the arch-nemesis of each Avenger the Masters [of Evil] rather than what we have in the comics (mostly henchmen). So if I'm to guess I think we might see Amora introduced as a "Master" and/or Baron Zemo introduced as a "Master." Before the inevitable Avengers 2, featuring the Masters as villains.

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Old 05-04-2013, 09:17 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

If the Mandarin is to return, I would prefer they bring back Pearce and retain the design and characterization. The Mandarin in the film is perfect: he and Tony form two sides of a coin.

Tony:

-Went from whole-bodied to crippled (in his unique ways: PTSD, using the armors as a crutch, not having the shrapnel removed, etc.)
-Went from callous/arrogant to becoming a caring person.
-Used mechs to solve the aforementioned trauma and acquire power.
-Operates in the light.

Killian

-Went from insecure/self-loathing to arrogant and insensitive (reversal of Ton's arc.)
-Went from crippled to whole bodied through bio-tech, the reverse of mech-tech.
-Operates in darkness.

Thus, they made the perfect Moriarty for Tony (and I have to note, I love the crime scene examination scene.) And the tattoos were the perfect flourish, reinforcing the imagery the built up (him breathing fire, for instance.)

If they use the Mandarin, it should be Pearce (or recast lookalike) who builds upon the aforementioned characterization. Due to the regenerative factor, I would be open for either option: keeping him dead or bringing him back to form the Masters of Evil.

Either way, I will be pleased with the perfect translation of the character for the MCU.

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Old 05-04-2013, 09:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

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Originally Posted by jonathancrane View Post
If the Mandarin is to return, I would prefer they bring back Pearce and retain the design and characterization. The Mandarin in the film is perfect: he and Tony form two sides of a coin.

Tony:

-Went from whole-bodied to crippled (in his unique ways: PTSD, using the armors as a crutch, not having the shrapnel removed, etc.)
-Went from callous/arrogant to becoming a caring person.
-Used mechs to solve the aforementioned trauma and acquire power.
-Operates in the light.

Killian

-Went from insecure/self-loathing to arrogant and insensitive (reversal of Ton's arc.)
-Went from crippled to whole bodied through bio-tech, the reverse of mech-tech.
-Operates in darkness.

Thus, they made the perfect Moriarty for Tony (and I have to note, I love the crime scene examination scene.) And the tattoos were the perfect flourish, reinforcing the imagery the built up (him breathing fire, for instance.)

If they use the Mandarin, it should be Pearce (or recast lookalike) who builds upon the aforementioned characterization. Due to the regenerative factor, I would be open for either option: keeping him dead or bringing him back to form the Masters of Evil.

Either way, I will be pleased with the perfect translation of the character for the MCU.
God Jesus no. Marvel should just be done with the IM series and movie on to other heroes solo movies. The only movies that IM should be in from now own are Avengers movies.

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Old 05-04-2013, 09:36 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

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God Jesus no. Marvel should just be done with the IM series and movie on to other heroes solo movies. The only movies that IM should be in from now own are Avengers movies.
I agree Smashlilman. I do. But if they wanted to make a solid attempt at fixing The Mandarin for a Masters of Evil Avengers film, I would be on board. I want them to acknowledge that they didn't do The Mandarin justice.

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Old 05-04-2013, 10:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

I don't want to see Masters of Evil, because the whole concept is fundamentally flawed: you take a bunch of guys who have lost (repeatedly, publicly, and humiliatingly) to the heroes in previous episodes, and bring them together to fight those heroes again....inevitably and unquestioningly, to get their asses kicked hard. Again.

I loved Pearce as Mandarin, and think he was definitely the most formidable and interesting foe Iron Man ever faced. And I also hold to the old adage that nobody ever stays dead in the Marvel Universe except Uncle Ben, so the circumstances of his apparent death are completely immaterial and irrelevant and fluid (see: Coulson Lives).

But I don't see Pearce (or Kingsley, for that matter) chomping at the bit to come back, and the jury is still out (way too early) on whether or not audiences are chomping at the bit for Mandarin's return. For now, I find it highly unlikely that we'll see Mandarin come back, and that's just fine with me. For IM4, bring on the *real* Crimson Dynamo and Titanium Man; Madame Masque; Spymaster and Ghost; Justine and Sasha Hammer; Edwin Cord; hell, even Living Laser or Fixer or Whirlwind or even MODOK, since the seeds of AIM have already been planted.

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Old 05-04-2013, 10:55 PM   #11
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I like what we got, many layers and parallels -- as well as inversions. I think the AIM/MIA thing points to how Killian and Tony are "two sides of the same coin".
I really see this as almost an origin story for the Mandarin on some levels...

The brain slot idea and Tony and Killian each relying on their minds, in many ways, can easily set up many future storylines. Or possibly link us back to this point

Little things like Pepper learning to karate chop an armor in half, and saying "that was so violent" (acknowledging the fact that she is surprised by her actions...) might mean Extremis is able to secretly affect the mind/behaviors.

The possibility of Killian's mind returning, in some form... in some other slot, and his shell being destroyed, is the only future possibility I see for Killian/Mandarin.

I think his think tank thinks many heads are better than one, and when one head is severed two grow in its place.

I hope that Killian's mind is still alive and he has infected the President of the United States, slipping into his slot, as well as Trevor's empty slot... Secretly controlling both. They took the Mandarin out of Trevor's character... but maybe Killian's able to tap back into him because of the surgeries...

Then in Captain America 2, it becomes Secret Avengers. Fury has to go rogue because tracking Winter Soldier leads them to discover an international conspiracy is afoot. Mandarin has secretly become the president of the united States before Avengers 2. Is controlling Trevor's mind as well, and blows him up in a Shield Maxium security prison to release every villain Shield has ever captured. Wanda and Pietro are only there because they are seen as a danger to reality, didn't like being told what to do by Shield. Samuel Sterns is there because of the events of TIH, but he has now become a monster, is re-introduced to Banner. His backup plan is to free Leader, aka Samuel Sterns, from a maximum security prison (to fix any flaws with his Extremis bodies) and just Tony had Shield fall into a trap, bringing a mind controlled time bomb to a Shield Prison... Killian knows how to keep his cool and not show his full hand. Using the double bluff technique to hide an even bigger hand. And sending a double in to get caught, having a backup sort of cloud version of his mind that can control/manipulate more than one person at a time.


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Old 05-04-2013, 11:02 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

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I like what we got, many layers and parallels -- as well as inversions. I think the AIM/MIA thing points to how Killian and Tony are "two sides of the same coin".

The brain slot idea and Tony and Killian each relying on their minds in many ways can easily set up many future storylines. Or possibly link us back to this point

Little things like Pepper learning to Karate chop an armor in half, and saying "that was so violent" (acknowledging the fact that she is surprised by her actions...) means Extremis might be able to secretly affect the mind/behaviors.

The possibility of Killian's mind returning, in some form... in some other slot, and his shell being destroyed, is the only future possibility I see for Killian/Mandarin.

I think his think tank thinks many heads are better than one, and when one head is severed two grow in its place.

I hope that Killian's mind is still alive and he has infected the President of the United States, slipping into his slot, as well as Trevor's empty slot... They took the Mandarin out of that character... but maybe Killian's able to tap back into him because of the surgeries...

Then in Captain America 2, it becomes Secret Avengers. Fury has to go rogue because Winter Soldier leads them to discover an international conspiracy is afoot. Mandarin has secretly become the president of the united States before Avengers 2.
haHA. nice hydra reference. Yep it did indeed feel like the Extremis soldiers were not of their right mind. Almost brainwashed. Almost hivemind.

There's a lot going on. And we might see more villains that are like this in Phase 2. The Mandarin was defeated sure... But his presence continues to grow stronger in the background. Extremis, AIM, The Ten Rings... all still at work. So if that continues to happen througout Phase 2. The Avengers will be in a real pickle. Forced to face their past demons together.

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Old 05-04-2013, 11:12 PM   #13
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I think they could end up throwing in Absorbing Man as a Master if they go with a prison break scenario, but ignore the ang lee version.

Have Leader changed and crazy from being imprisoned for so long. The real Mandarin would then control trevor's mind and free many people Shield has imprisoned over the years from the prison he was sent to.
Trevor's body explodes after taken in because he was secretly given the surgeries not to change his appearance, but to heal his insides, liver, and organs etc, after decades of drug and alcohol abuse.

A carrot Killian dangled to keep Trevor locked in an addictive cycle and sitting in place... Trevor could continue to drink/do drugs, and do as much damage to his liver/inner system as he wanted. Because the Extremis surgeries would repair it and they paid for all his drugs... He's more guilty than he even knows. But he's not the real Mandarin. I think Killian didn't care that Trevor was destroying his mind...
Makes it easier to slip into unnoticed after Killian's physical brain is destroyed. It's the mind that makes the man/super-ego.


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Old 05-04-2013, 11:24 PM   #14
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I think they could end up throwing in Absorbing Man as a Master if they go with a prison break scenario, but ignore the ang lee version.

Have Leader changed and crazy from being imprisoned for so long. The real Mandarin would then control trevor's mind and free many people Shield has imprisoned over the years from the prison he was sent to. Trevor's body explodes because he was secretly given the surgeries not to change his appearance but heal his insides, liver, and organs etc, after decades of drug and alcohol abuse. A carrot Killian used to keep him going... he could continue to drink and do drugs and do as much damage to his system as he wanted. Killian didn't care that he was destroying his mind...
I've been saying that, imo, any other Masters [of Evil] should be on Mandarin's intellectual level. I dont want to see henchmen or meatheads. In other words I could live without Absorbing Man, Batroc the Leaper, etc.

But if we see a certain Enchantress, a certain Baron, a certain Leader all team up alongside a certain Mandarin... Now that's a team I'd be afraid of.

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Old 05-04-2013, 11:25 PM   #15
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God Jesus no. Marvel should just be done with the IM series and movie on to other heroes solo movies. The only movies that IM should be in from now own are Avengers movies.
Why should Marvel Studios abandon their most successful solo hero franchise at the height of its popularity? I seriously doubt Disney, with all the money they have invested in Marvel, would be too happy with this.

Iron Man is one of Marvel's oldest heroes - he's been around for 50 years so I am sure there are more than three stories to be told with him.

If we can have over 20 Bond movies we should be able to have a few more Iron Mans...

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Old 05-04-2013, 11:27 PM   #16
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Yes it is possible. Killian seemed to have greater control of his power then the others. His breathing fire was a huge surprise to his henchmen. I think Mandarin could potentially heal his body.

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Old 05-04-2013, 11:33 PM   #17
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The reason I think we don't see Enchantress yet is because I think it's sort of like a proto Masters team that still hasn't quite got it together yet without Killian advising Zemo.
Meaning if MoE are in Avengers 2 I think only the first half of the movie is about them.

I'd have even the Masters of Evil change lineups a little bit across movies...
So that Loki and Enchantress aren't in the first incarnation of the team, but instead Absorbing Man is created by Loki to face Thor on Earth... And Loki accidentally creates absorbing Man in Thor 2 or something. When Red Skull returns the Masters could sort of do another round with a team that Cap has in Cap 3.

So Killian would return as like this hive mind entity, and Zemo parts of Zemo's plan could be figured out in Captain America 2, but we wouldn't actually see much of Zemo. So he'd be a "new" villain in the way he'd be threatening people, but one who was in the shadows in CA2.

Leader, Samuel Sterns, becomes the only other person who has enough knowledge about biology, besides Pym (who is missing...), who can give Killian what he wants so his host bodies stop exploding. Killian's been profiting off the minds of some of the world's smartest people, and evil geniuses. Wants to collect/work off of many of these brilliant minds.
The prison break becomes part of Mandarin's backup plan all along. He can't get stark's mind for his think tanks so he has to go after Leaders.
But Leader is a much different man than he was before being imprisoned by Shield.
Mandarin returns in a new form.
We haven't seen Zemo before, so he's new.
Ultron is teased and built up, like Wardell said possibly secretly guiding them...

Thanos has to have a presence, so... the secret invasion is underway from above and below.
Even Hydra must deal with the fact that now that they've secretly surpised the world and suddenly overthrown in from within, another force is moving on the planet... Sending space phantoms down...

So it turns out that the masters aren't the real worst enemies, their worst enemies are themselves... President KillMandarin's hive mind has to deal with the fact that now that they control one of the most powerful positions on Earth, they must defend the Earth from outside forces... They are responsible for the world they've secretly planned to overthrow...
The space phantoms would be from the early Avengers comics, but here they would be working for Thanos.


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Old 05-04-2013, 11:40 PM   #18
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Woah dude. I seriously think I need some of whatever you are smokin. :P

There's a lot going on there. I say keep it simple. Introduce a Master in each Phase 2 film. Maybe only even calling them "master" in passing. Somehow allude to how they could still be at play even after the conclusion of the film. Then let Joss Whedon handle the rest in The Avengers 2.

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Old 05-04-2013, 11:50 PM   #19
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I've been thinking about it too long lol

A lot of the comments Joss has said about Avengers 2 lead me to believe some of the Masters will be involved but that Thanos will still have a presence in the movie.

He hasn't actually written Avengers 2, like a final draft yet but Feige has already talked about how he looked at Whedon's ideas in one interview. And that there are "7 things worth the price of admission". So I think at the very least Whedon is planning ahead a little bit.

I don't think that necessarily means 7 Masters show up, but I think there will be a lot of moving parts in Avengers 2, and a lot of huge risks, set ups, and reveals, that are planned in advance, as phase 2 moves along.


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Old 05-04-2013, 11:54 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

I do think we'll know for sure by the end of Thor 2. If there is even one hint to a villain (besides Loki) surviving The Dark World, I'll pretty much be 99% certain at that point.

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Old 05-04-2013, 11:55 PM   #21
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Oh and Joss has completed the first draft of The Avengers 2. god only knows how many drafts he'll end up doing though.

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Old 05-04-2013, 11:59 PM   #22
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

Okay despite scripting, Pearce wasn't
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
the Mandarin anymore than he was Crimson Dynamo simply because the Extremis made him reddish and he discharged energy.


And no, they shouldn't bring Killian back.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Perpetually healing super soldiers are a very tiresome and overused concept.

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Old 05-05-2013, 12:02 AM   #23
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Okay despite scripting, Pearce wasn't
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
the Mandarin anymore than he was Crimson Dynamo simply because the Extremis made him reddish and he discharged energy.


And no, they shouldn't bring Killian back.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Perpetually healing super soldiers are a very tiresome and overused concept.
I'm with you there. I refuse to call Killian The Mandarin. I also agree that the super soldiers are a little much. That's why I'm glad they made Extremis so dangerously unstable and addictive. It's not something everyone wants.

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Old 05-05-2013, 12:16 AM   #24
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
I don't want to see Masters of Evil, because the whole concept is fundamentally flawed: you take a bunch of guys who have lost (repeatedly, publicly, and humiliatingly) to the heroes in previous episodes, and bring them together to fight those heroes again....inevitably and unquestioningly, to get their asses kicked hard. Again.

I loved Pearce as Mandarin, and think he was definitely the most formidable and interesting foe Iron Man ever faced. And I also hold to the old adage that nobody ever stays dead in the Marvel Universe except Uncle Ben, so the circumstances of his apparent death are completely immaterial and irrelevant and fluid (see: Coulson Lives).

But I don't see Pearce (or Kingsley, for that matter) chomping at the bit to come back, and the jury is still out (way too early) on whether or not audiences are chomping at the bit for Mandarin's return. For now, I find it highly unlikely that we'll see Mandarin come back, and that's just fine with me. For IM4, bring on the *real* Crimson Dynamo and Titanium Man; Madame Masque; Spymaster and Ghost; Justine and Sasha Hammer; Edwin Cord; hell, even Living Laser or Fixer or Whirlwind or even MODOK, since the seeds of AIM have already been planted.

it may not be like that though. Let's say my little idea is right, hypothetically...then yeah...instead of them being bitter about being defeated by the avengers, it is sort of like a type of...United Nations type thing, with people who commit fraud, and criminals...if my wild idea of killian being funded by zemo is true, and zemo is trying to get hydra to overthrow the globe...it all becomes politics, and the avengers have to stop them....

it's ridiculous, I know, but something like that would add a little more depth to a "masters of evil" type thing

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Old 05-05-2013, 12:20 AM   #25
TRM
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Default Re: Is it possible? (MAJOR spoilers)

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Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin View Post
I do think we'll know for sure by the end of Thor 2. If there is even one hint to a villain (besides Loki) surviving The Dark World, I'll pretty much be 99% certain at that point.
I'm worried we won't know for sure... That we're supposed to not know about some of the Masters' secret plans until it's too late, and it's semi-sprung on us in Avengers 2 like some of the characters. That instead of any sort of clues to the next movies it could continue in a similar way (possible hints within the movie) until Cap 2 and the Shield show where some background info might be filled. As mainly a standalone with only a few tiny hints as to what may be going on in Avengers 2. However, I really do think the Other has to be in that movie, and Thanos is somehow referenced in Thor 2.

The thing is, there's also been comments about how CA2 is where secrets will be revealed. that it's sort of a political thriller. Even Widow's look is a little bit styled after her Secret Avengers look... Cap is working for Shield but Fury might have a disagreement with his boss/old friend.
In the comic Redford's character is around when Shield is being secretly overrun by the Deltites, shapeshifters that can replace people and copy their powers.

So, instead of deltites the Space Phantoms are originally from a planet Thanos has conquered... We start to find out all about the Masters evil plots within Captain America 2, but they're more like Acts of Vengence at this point, taking on the Secret Avengers in a massive conspiracy thriller that will show the many personifications of Killian's evil and how Tony was right during the investigation scene, Mandarin means adviser to the Emperor. killian was just one of the heads of Hydra, Zemo, and Zola's hidden Empire of multinational umbrella corps and false fronts, financial institutions that have been defrauded by Zemo as his side of the surprise attack.

Alexander Pierce, Fury's boss does accounting and stumbles onto Zemo siphoning money, even out of Shield. At the same time he has bigger probs.

He can't trust Cap and Fury -- they think Zemo's plot goes back decades (and it does...). But Cap and Fury sound crazy when they go rogue because they can't tell who or what is secretly overthrowing Earth.
Turns out it's space phantoms (Thanos's elite spies) and the Masters.
The Masters have secretly taken control of key positions over society...
However so have some aliens that scare even the Masters...
That's my full theory lol


Last edited by TRM; 05-05-2013 at 12:35 AM.
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