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Old 05-06-2013, 04:52 AM   #1
Repulsor Blast
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Default The 10 Rings Group

So from Iron Man 1 we know that there was a legitimate terrorist group known as the 10 rings.

With the events of Iron Man 3 and the revelations therein, do you guys still think the real terrorist group exists somewhere out there?

If so, who is their leader? Will we see them reemerge in a later film?

If not, why do you think so?

Personally I can't see how Killian was behind the events of the first film. To me, the people who kidnapped tony were legit and in league with stane and stane alone.

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Old 05-06-2013, 04:54 AM   #2
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

Yeah I was confused by this too.

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Old 05-06-2013, 05:43 AM   #3
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

No idea, but I would hate to see a retcon where Killian is behind the group since IM1...

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Old 05-06-2013, 06:28 AM   #4
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

I think Killian appropriated the name and logo, as the Mandarin did all of the Chinese symbols and history. I imagine the group ceased to exist, following Stane executing them in Iron Man; hence the ease Killian had in appropriating said symbols and name.

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Old 05-06-2013, 06:48 AM   #5
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

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Originally Posted by jonathancrane View Post
I think Killian appropriated the name and logo, as the Mandarin did all of the Chinese symbols and history. I imagine the group ceased to exist, following Stane executing them in Iron Man; hence the ease Killian had in appropriating said symbols and name.


i think you may be right there.

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Old 05-06-2013, 08:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

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I think Killian appropriated the name and logo, as the Mandarin did all of the Chinese symbols and history. I imagine the group ceased to exist, following Stane executing them in Iron Man; hence the ease Killian had in appropriating said symbols and name.
Bingo, we have a winner.

If Ten Rings was still in existence during IM3, they would've all been going "Wait, what....?" the first time "Mandarin" appeared on national TV. An impostor taking credit for their work, pretending to be their leader....? Not gonna fly. They would have disavowed him loudly and publicly, and probably issued a fatwa against this infidel liar.

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Old 05-06-2013, 09:43 AM   #7
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

Didn't they still exist in Iron Man 2? It was a Ten Rings operative who got Ivan Vanko his passport and papers.

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Old 05-06-2013, 09:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

On a side note...I believe that it was Killian that had one of his people get Whiplash the papers to go overseas and attempt to kill Tony.

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Old 05-06-2013, 09:53 AM   #9
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

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Didn't they still exist in Iron Man 2? It was a Ten Rings operative who got Ivan Vanko his passport and papers.
Not exactly.
People keep trying to quote this, but here's the rundown: in the director's commentary on the IM2 DVD, Favreau says they had a scene that got left on the cutting room floor where an Asian guy with a big ring would hand Vanko a pit pass to get into the racetrack at Monaco. They never used the scene, and it was never explicitly stated that there was a connection to Ten Rings, anyway.

Wouldn't have made a lick of sense if it had shown up in the final analysis, anyway. A "legends" race of old-timey GP cars at Monaco is not a high enough profile event for a terrorist to start drooling over; and even if it was a target, there are far better and far easier and far cheaper and far more effective ways to score terrorist points there than getting some guy with energy-powered whips to stand in the straightaway trying to chop up cars coming at him at 160 MPH. Fertilizer bomb? Boom. Tony Stark and hundreds dead. Done.

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Old 05-06-2013, 09:53 AM   #10
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

I posted about this in the Mandarin thread. As I don't have the same emotional investment as others in that character, the reveal didn't really bother me so much. What did, is that the Ten Rings had been established in the movie universe, and with the promise of Mandarin being in part 3, I expected the group to be more fleshed out. Just a logo doesn't cut it. I would imagine they wouldn't take too kindly to a fake, puppet terrorist using their name and insignia. They would have come out and done something about it. If it were Killian the whole time, that should have been addressed. That revelation would have bolstered him even further as a threat, and helped to tie up the movies even more. It was just flat out lazy scripting to satisfy personal desires for the film, rather than actually carrying developing storylines through to the end of the trilogy. Just lazy, lazy, lazy.

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Old 05-06-2013, 10:12 AM   #11
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

As someone said above it wasn't Killian the whole time. What remained of the 10 rings after Tony escaped, and when he attacked Gulmira were killed off by Stane, to eliminate any connection to him.

Cherokeesam is correct none of the 10 rings stuff was used in IM2, but I do think there's a credit for "10 rings henchman".

The way I see it is that Killian saw that Tony was captured, he saw the organization that did it, and he decided to take it further. He adapted the 10 rings logo and mythos, and used it as a way to further his cause.

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Old 05-06-2013, 10:20 AM   #12
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Not exactly.
People keep trying to quote this, but here's the rundown: in the director's commentary on the IM2 DVD, Favreau says they had a scene that got left on the cutting room floor where an Asian guy with a big ring would hand Vanko a pit pass to get into the racetrack at Monaco. They never used the scene, and it was never explicitly stated that there was a connection to Ten Rings, anyway.

Wouldn't have made a lick of sense if it had shown up in the final analysis, anyway. A "legends" race of old-timey GP cars at Monaco is not a high enough profile event for a terrorist to start drooling over; and even if it was a target, there are far better and far easier and far cheaper and far more effective ways to score terrorist points there than getting some guy with energy-powered whips to stand in the straightaway trying to chop up cars coming at him at 160 MPH. Fertilizer bomb? Boom. Tony Stark and hundreds dead. Done.
Ahhh, Okay I gotcha. I recall that scene because when he handed the papers to Vanko there was a tattoo with the logo on his arm or something. Can't really remember exactly. I didn't catch it till like the 3rd time I saw that scene. But I suppose your right.

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Old 05-06-2013, 10:25 AM   #13
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

Someone refresh my memory, I'm on very very limited sleep and on my cell... Was there a picture of the ring Justin Hammer wore in IM2 that made it look like one of Mandarin's or was that just a theory?

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Old 05-06-2013, 10:52 AM   #14
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

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Originally Posted by scifiwolf View Post
I posted about this in the Mandarin thread. As I don't have the same emotional investment as others in that character, the reveal didn't really bother me so much. What did, is that the Ten Rings had been established in the movie universe, and with the promise of Mandarin being in part 3, I expected the group to be more fleshed out. Just a logo doesn't cut it. I would imagine they wouldn't take too kindly to a fake, puppet terrorist using their name and insignia. They would have come out and done something about it. If it were Killian the whole time, that should have been addressed. That revelation would have bolstered him even further as a threat, and helped to tie up the movies even more. It was just flat out lazy scripting to satisfy personal desires for the film, rather than actually carrying developing storylines through to the end of the trilogy. Just lazy, lazy, lazy.
That's how I feel about it, too. I haven't read any Iron Man comics that star the Mandarin yet, so I also have no connection to the character. I have problems with it for story reasons.

The fact that they killed off what was supposed to be a long setup bothers me. The fact that it isn't explained in the movies and requires fans to retcon it just means it is actually a continuity error.

Plus, I don't even understand why he's called the Mandarin in this film. Neither of them (Trevor or Killian) are Chinese, neither of them have power rings. The only similarity is that Trevor wears a green coat with some normal rings. They could have taken off a couple of rings and called him The Minister and no one would have known that he was supposed to be the Mandarin. Seems like they just slapped the name on for popularity reasons, and that seems like a silly choice. It's lazy writing.

I actually do like the movie's villain(s). Killian was cool and Trevor was hilarious.

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Old 05-06-2013, 11:27 AM   #15
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I believe the real MCU Ten Rings is still out there, reasons below:
-Killian took the Ten Rings logo and name only. I suppose if he wanted a legit terror threat as a smokescreen, what better way to do that than piggyback off one that already exists?
-Killian's ultimate goal (as disclosed to Rhodes after forcing him out of the IP suit) was to create a monopoly on the war on terror, so it's quite likely he's been supplying the real Ten Rings along with other terrorist groups around the world. Maybe the real Ten Rings allowed Killian to use their name and logo in return for some free machine guns or something (j/k but you get my point).
-IM3 comic prelude mentioned the Ten Rings operates with autonomous cells though I imagine a few of those had backing from Killian instead of the real Ten Rings.
-The cell that captured Stark in IM1 was most definitely wiped out by Stane but who's to say that was the head cell? Could be an umbrella organization out there that they haven't revealed in the MCU yet.
-The guy giving Vanko the Monaco tix in IM2 was most definitely credited as a Ten Rings member, it's in the end credits.

From what Fiege and other people involved have disclosed so far spanning back to the first Iron Man movie, I would assume that whatever real Mandarin they throw at us in the distant future probably will be highly modernized and may not even be called the Mandarin (since that'll just be plain confusing to the general audience after IM3). It might be another IM rogue repurposed to be the head of the Ten Rings, or maybe just rebadge the Mandarin with a different name. Wild guesses at this point but I don't see Marvel Studios having shut the door completely on doing a solo movie with the real Ten Rings as the villain in the future.

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Old 05-06-2013, 11:45 AM   #16
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I haven't seen the movie yet, but am not spoiler-adverse and have been doing some research, and everything I've seen seems to indicate that Killian WAS meant to have been behind everything that's happened since the events of IM1 insofar as the Ten Rings terrorist organization is concerned, with Kingsley's Mandarin/Trevor Slattery being the 'front man' (the same way that Palpatine was ultimately behind everything that happened in the PT, including the Clone Wars and the CiS rebellion, which had Dooku as its 'front man').

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Old 05-06-2013, 12:01 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by DigificWriter View Post
I haven't seen the movie yet, but am not spoiler-adverse and have been doing some research, and everything I've seen seems to indicate that Killian WAS meant to have been behind everything that's happened since the events of IM1 insofar as the Ten Rings terrorist organization is concerned, with Kingsley's Mandarin/Trevor Slattery being the 'front man' (the same way that Palpatine was ultimately behind everything that happened in the PT, including the Clone Wars and the CiS rebellion, which had Dooku as its 'front man').
I'd hate to think Killian is behind the events of IM1, but I don't see how "everything indicates" that's the case... I'd have to agree with cherokeesam on this one - I doubt there's any meaningful connection between the Ten Rings as they were in IM1 and Killian and so far I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that.

And no offense, but those Star Wars comparisons are horrible... What's next, people will start comparing Trevor Slattery to Darth Vader?

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Old 05-06-2013, 12:05 PM   #18
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I don't know why people are saying the Mandarin wasn't behind it. Killian IS the Mandarin, whether people like it or not, he was the Mandarin to those who were concerned. He just hired some lowly British actor to be a figurehead. He was putting words in Trevor's mouth and he was using him when he needed to use him.

So, what exactly says Killian wasn't behind it?

Also in the prologue comic tying Avengers into Iron Man 3, the ten rings organization was indeed mentioned and they said they were close to attaining what they would need in order for their plans to work. So, the ten rings organization didn't disappear and they did report to "the Mandarin" who was kept out of sight in the final pages which if you use this movie as a guide - it's quite obvious why they never showed his face; most likely they were reporting to Killian. Otherwise, why hide his face?

The IRON MAN movie came out in 2008. The film opened in 1999. It also seemed like Killian's fate was forever changed that night - a new year, a new lease on life. So why after just less than 10 years would he not be able to have kick started his plan other than people not wanting to believe he was behind it?

So, it's in the mythology -- Killian IS Mandarin (there is no Mandarin before or after him, he is the real deal) and he was the leader of the ten rings organization. If there was a Mandarin before, that would have been brought up. If it was a different ten rings, they would have explained that in the prologue or have it be completely different. Saying that he's not when everything points to it, I believe comes more from people not liking that Killian is Mandarin than any real solid leads in that direction.

KILLIAN/MANDARIN AND THE TEN RINGS IS ESTABLISHED MCU MYTHOLOGY



Everything is pointing to the ten rings working with Killian/Mandarin and there's nothing pointing against that fact.

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Old 05-06-2013, 12:06 PM   #19
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Norek: Go read this article/analysis by Entertainment Weekly.

You might not like the SW comparisons, but they are valid.

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Old 05-06-2013, 12:20 PM   #20
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Norek: Go read this article/analysis by Entertainment Weekly.

You might not like the SW comparisons, but they are valid.
The only valid thing about it is that the one reports to the other. Other than that, it's a horrible example. Count Dooku was a legitimate villain who defeated two of the most powerful Jedi (almost three) and did all kinds of other bad ****; Trevor is a joke. Even comparing him to fake Ra's is more valid, and that's a bad example and a flawed comparison too. I'm not even sure why we're discussing this.

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Old 05-06-2013, 12:26 PM   #21
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There's room for argument, but I think the preponderance of the evidence is that the Ten Rings were a preexisting organization that Killian appropriated. I suspect it probably *does* still exist as of IM3, with the fragments left after IM1 having been reformed and reassembled through the Mandarin. After all, while the primary purpose of the Mandarin is to provide a cover story for the detonations, a terrorist group in your pocket is still useful.

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Old 05-06-2013, 12:32 PM   #22
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The preponderance of the evidence is that the Ten Rings were a preexisting organization.
Where was this? Where's the evidence that this organization didn't get started somewhere around 2005-2008 and existed prior to 1999?

As far as I could tell there was nothing that stated that in any of the films or comics. If there is, okay - I missed that then. But if there isn't? Where is this evidence that the organization existed pre-1999/2000 (since it was new years)?

Yeah, Iron Man 1 came out before Iron Man 3. But, Iron Man 3 began a little under 10 years prior to Iron Man 1. So everything, unless a date was put on the ten rings, is pointing to Killian being the chicken and the ten rings being the egg.

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Old 05-06-2013, 01:15 PM   #23
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I don't know why people are saying the Mandarin wasn't behind it. Killian IS the Mandarin, whether people like it or not, he was the Mandarin to those who were concerned. He just hired some lowly British actor to be a figurehead. He was putting words in Trevor's mouth and he was using him when he needed to use him.

So, what exactly says Killian wasn't behind it?

Also in the prologue comic tying Avengers into Iron Man 3, the ten rings organization was indeed mentioned and they said they were close to attaining what they would need in order for their plans to work. So, the ten rings organization didn't disappear and they did report to "the Mandarin" who was kept out of sight in the final pages which if you use this movie as a guide - it's quite obvious why they never showed his face; most likely they were reporting to Killian. Otherwise, why hide his face?

The IRON MAN movie came out in 2008. The film opened in 1999. It also seemed like Killian's fate was forever changed that night - a new year, a new lease on life. So why after just less than 10 years would he not be able to have kick started his plan other than people not wanting to believe he was behind it?

So, it's in the mythology -- Killian IS Mandarin (there is no Mandarin before or after him, he is the real deal) and he was the leader of the ten rings organization. If there was a Mandarin before, that would have been brought up. If it was a different ten rings, they would have explained that in the prologue or have it be completely different. Saying that he's not when everything points to it, I believe comes more from people not liking that Killian is Mandarin than any real solid leads in that direction.

KILLIAN/MANDARIN AND THE TEN RINGS IS ESTABLISHED MCU MYTHOLOGY



Everything is pointing to the ten rings working with Killian/Mandarin and there's nothing pointing against that fact.
Exactly! And nice use of the prologue comic...I'd forgotten about that last page, but it makes perfect sense in the context of the film.

Killian was always the leader of that organization under the alias of "the Mandarin". Remember what Killian said about anonymity in the film? Something along the lines of "subtlety doesn't work as well since that guy with the hammer fell from the sky".

What does that mean? It means that Killian found it harder to operate a large terrorist organization from the shadows once superheroes and aliens started popping up all over the place. People are going to start wondering who's really pulling the strings.

So how does Killian keep himself from being lit up by the spotlight? By placing someone else there and publicly making him the face of the organization, of course. As far as everyone else knows (including the Ten Rings members), the bearded Mandarin on TV is the guy they've always been taking orders from since the organization's inception...they've just never seen him before.

...of course, this begs a question as to how far Killian was involved with Tony's capture in the first film.

Personally, I think it's pretty obvious that Killian wanted control over Stark industries through Stane...both for practical reasons and vengeance. That's why he ordered the Ten Rings to kill Tony.

But they don't kill Tony at all...they capture him with the intent of having build weapons for them. Why? I think Raza was acting on his own at that point in what he believed to be the best interests of the Ten Rings. However, upon finding out about his insubordination, Killian had Obadiah kill Raza and his men.

See? It all makes sense!

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Old 05-06-2013, 01:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: The 10 Rings Group

Some time this weekend, I am going to read the prologue comic and re-watch Iron Man, as the revelation of the above excerpted panel has complicated my understanding of who (and how they were) involved with the Ten Rings.

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Old 05-06-2013, 02:19 PM   #25
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That's one of the main things I didn't like about IM3. I didn't mind the mandarin twist, but they definitely screwed up the whole ten rings backstory.

Killian and Maya wanted Tony in order to perfect the Extremis formula. If he was in charge the whole time, them why have Tony work on a missile in the first film?

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