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Old 05-06-2013, 02:31 PM   #26
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I'm just glad they didn't do some stupid twist that said Killian put Stane up to having a hit put out on Tony using the ten rings or something. Two stupid twists in one movie would have been too much!

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Old 05-06-2013, 02:43 PM   #27
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I'm having a tough time buying the whole argument that Killian was behind the Ten Rings since the first movie, it just seems like a stretch to have to put that together based on what they've shown us in the movies thus far.

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Old 05-06-2013, 02:47 PM   #28
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I'm having a tough time buying the whole argument that Killian was behind the Ten Rings since the first movie, it just seems like a stretch to have to put that together based on what they've shown us in the movies thus far.
Why?

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Old 05-06-2013, 03:22 PM   #29
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IM3 never shows Killian in control of any legitimate terrorist activity. That's why.

It's been said that after certain events in IM1/IM2/IM3 prelude the ten rings no longer exist and Killian just uses the name as a front. But I dont believe that either.

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Old 05-06-2013, 03:34 PM   #30
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Raza references the Ten Rings' leader in IM1: "he whose rings I wear" or something like that. And Killian wouldn't have been able to adopt the Ten Rings' image for his own purposes while they still exist; using the identity and insignia of terrorists that exist independently of Killian's control would completely blow his cover.

So the only choices are that either the Ten Rings' leader is a completely different person from the Mandarin and that group simply died out between IM2 and 3, or Killian was behind the group from the very beginning.

Considering Killian's "I am the Mandarin, it was me all along" lines, I'm inclined to believe that the latter option is what Black, Feige, et al. are going for

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Old 05-06-2013, 03:46 PM   #31
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Its amazing to me that even after three Iron Man films (7 MCU films) The Ten Rings are still a ****ing mystery.


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Old 05-06-2013, 04:22 PM   #32
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I think had Favreau directed this movie, we'd have gotten a very concise explanation to this question.

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Old 05-06-2013, 05:13 PM   #33
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Its amazing to me that even after three Iron Man films (7 MCU films) The Ten Rings are still a ****ing mystery.


-_-
I think they're a mystery to Marvel too.

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Old 05-06-2013, 06:14 PM   #34
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Its amazing to me that even after three Iron Man films (7 MCU films) The Ten Rings are still a ****ing mystery.


-_-
Not really they made it specifically a point in the comic prelude which always sticks true to Marvel's intentions and was made very clear, so I'd put all this theory that "Killian wasn't behind the ten rings" along the same lines of thinking as "Trevor IS the ONLY Mandarin still! " The details we don't know, but I don't know how Marvel could specify Killian was Mandarin from the start any clearer than they have for those who dig into everything they put out.

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Old 05-06-2013, 06:45 PM   #35
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Not really they made it specifically a point in the comic prelude which always sticks true to Marvel's intentions and was made very clear, so I'd put all this theory that "Killian wasn't behind the ten rings" along the same lines of thinking as "Trevor IS the ONLY Mandarin still! " The details we don't know, but I don't know how Marvel could specify Killian was Mandarin from the start any clearer than they have for those who dig into everything they put out.
Oh haha. I'm sorry, you mustve misread my post. I said "Its amazing to me that even after three Iron Man films (7 MCU films) The Ten Rings are still a ****ing mystery."

What percentage of IM3 viewers do you think have read the prelude comic? I'm one of them, you are probably the other one. I kid, I kid. I'm sure a couple more than 2 people have read them.

The point is, you said this:

"The details we don't know, but I don't know how Marvel could specify Killian was Mandarin from the start any clearer than they have for those who dig into everything they put out."

And its one of those contradictory sentences. How on earth could they have made that any clearer? Oh yeah, by not making us dig into everything they put out. They couldve made it clearer by making it clearer.

I'd still like to believe that adapting The Mandarin properly is still a possibility. Sue me for hoping the MCU has potential.

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Old 05-06-2013, 06:54 PM   #36
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It's clear to the fans. General audience isn't going to care about all the little ins and outs. To them? The ten rings was just an organization that served a minor function in Iron Man 1. They haven't heard of it since then - only the fans have. And the fans wouldn't even know about their presence in Iron Man 2 if it wasn't for digging. To the general audience they haven't existed since Iron Man 1. It's not a mystery to them, it's non-existent to them.

Making Trevor become Killian wouldn't be properly adapting Mandarin. Since when is Mandarin a guy who was originally a washed up actor, got his conscious from another guy and by happenstance of extreme luck somehow got additional magical powers that go far and beyond the project he was a part of? It would be a retcon of the worst order. Not only would he STILL be Killian (all you are doing is changing his race), but now he lucks into powers that have no reason for being there other than "Mandarin has those in the comics!"

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Old 05-06-2013, 06:58 PM   #37
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It's clear to the fans. General audience isn't going to care about all the little ins and outs. To them? The ten rings was just an organization that served a minor function in Iron Man 1. They haven't heard of it since then - only the fans have. And the fans wouldn't even know about their presence in Iron Man 2 if it wasn't for digging.

Making Trevor become Killian wouldn't be properly adapting Mandarin. Since when is Mandarin a guy who was originally a washed up actor, got his conscious from another guy and by happenstance of extreme luck somehow got additional magical powers that go far and beyond the project he was a part of? It would be a retcon of the worst order. Not only would he STILL be Killian (all you are doing is changing his race), but he also lucks into powers that have no reason for being there other than "Mandarin has those!"
Who the hell is talking about changing his race?

I've never said one thing about changing his race. I'm going to say right now (and you can put this on the record) I, pr0xyt0xin, do not care what race The Mandarin is. Never have.

I want to see a Mandarin on screen, pose a threat to Tony Stark, who has the appearance and mannerisms of The Mandarin from the IM3 trailers. Because that Mandarin is frightening, threatening and interesting. And Killian is not.

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Old 05-06-2013, 07:03 PM   #38
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Killian IS Mandarin. Let's say I take out your brain and insert my consciousness into it so that I'm living through you. Do you really think you'd still be you? I would just be walking around in a new "flesh suit" with my same old mannerisms. Trevor wouldn't become Mandarin - Trevor wasn't even what the TV showed him as, unless you actually want Mandarin wandering around like Jack Sparrow who he naturally is - Trevor would become KILLIAN.

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Old 05-06-2013, 07:11 PM   #39
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Killian IS Mandarin. Let's say I take out your brain and insert my consciousness into it so that I'm living through you. Do you really think you'd still be you? I would just be walking around in a new "flesh suit" with my same old mannerisms. Trevor wouldn't become Mandarin - Trevor wasn't even what the TV showed him as, unless you actually want Mandarin wandering around like Jack Sparrow who he naturally is - Trevor would become KILLIAN.
And that is somehow a different race? idk if you knew this, but Guy Pearce and Ben Kingsley are both Englishmen.

Whatever.

So anyway, it sounds like you are starting to get my point. "Trevor would become Killian" and "Killian IS Mandarin"

End of discussion.

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Old 05-06-2013, 07:17 PM   #40
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I think, or might be wrong, some here are overlooking that. Race is brought up by others and the same people that bring that up seem to point to Kingsley being closer.

It's still the most out-of-the-way approach to things which are already set up. Why go this round-about way when it's already been shown and demonstrated that he regenerates? That requires no extensive explanation. What would the greater motive be? Just to have him take over the body of Trevor so he looks like Ben Kingsley? Also how exactly would this be done? He programmed his spirit so it would become active in Trevor after he dies? How would a human do something like that? Someone would probably need to do some kind of experiment to transfer them -- and why would they transfer it into a guy in jail and the world probably soon finds out is a washed up actor? Or if Killian is still around -- why would he transfer it into a washed up actor in jail? That seems like a lot to do to get into the body of a washed up actor. It seems more motivated to find a different face and new beginnings if anything.

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Old 05-06-2013, 07:32 PM   #41
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I think, or might be wrong, some here are overlooking that. Race is brought up by others and the same people that bring that up seem to point to Kingsley being closer.

It's still the most out-of-the-way approach to things which are already set up. Why go this round-about way when it's already been shown and demonstrated that he regenerates? That requires no extensive explanation. What would the greater motive be? Just to have him take over the body of Trevor so he looks like Ben Kingsley? Also how exactly would this be done? He programmed his spirit so it would become active in Trevor after he dies? How would a human do something like that? Someone would probably need to do some kind of experiment to transfer them -- and why would they transfer it into a guy in jail and the world probably soon finds out is a washed up actor? Or if Killian is still around -- why would he transfer it into a washed up actor in jail? That seems like a lot to do to get into the body of a washed up actor. It seems more motivated to find a different face and new beginnings if anything.
This, from my interpretation of the film, could be explained through Extremis as well. Lets look at each Extremis-powered character individually.

1. Eric Savin, looked bored almost the entire film when he wasn't trying to kill someone. Even like he was a robot in "off" mode if you ask me.
2. Ellen Brandt, similar. Had no characterization other than hope/fear/pain before infected with Extremis. And appeared angry/homicidal (toward Tony) after infected with Extremis.
3. Jack Taggart, unable to regulate wanted his fix and then exploded shortly after.
4. Pepper Potts, nearly out of her mind and unprecedentedly violent.
5. Aldrich Killian, pretty much all of the above emotions without exception.

I believe Killian had some degree of control over his soldiers besides just them being in his debt for regrowing their limbs.

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Old 05-06-2013, 07:35 PM   #42
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If you're trying to say just Killian's anger would transfer into Trevor -- that wouldn't make him a terrorist or the Mandarin, it would make him a drugged John Wilkes Booth.

If you're saying Killian had control over everyone there -- why exactly would he control Pepper to kill him? Why wouldn't he just switch her off?

Also you're ignoring the whole point of - out of all people, why would he go into the body of a washed up drug addicted actor in jail? Why wouldn't he just start anew? People aren't gonna take that actor seriously.

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Old 05-06-2013, 07:47 PM   #43
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If you're trying to say just Killian's anger would transfer into Trevor -- that wouldn't make him a terrorist or the Mandarin, it would make him a drugged John Wilkes Booth.
John Wilkes Booth... Hmmm... Are you saying because he attempted to assassinate the president? Not quite sure what you mean.

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If you're saying Killian had control over everyone there -- why exactly would he control Pepper to kill him? Why wouldn't he just switch her off?
Could be a couple things if you want to get really in depth about it.
A. Some degree of control. Like, depending on how brain dead the person began as. And we all know Pepper is a smarty.
B. Some degree of control... like, yeah, his anger and overall aspirations are transferred into them. Leading Tony to ask "what, are you mad at me?"
C. He was hardly more than a puddle of molten goo when Pepper arose from the inferno. Probably has some trouble "regulating" at that point. :P

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Also you're ignoring the whole point of - out of all people, why would he go into the body of a washed up drug addicted actor in jail? Why wouldn't he just start anew? People aren't gonna take that actor seriously.
I'm not ignoring any point. If there's a reason I haven't answered something you've said its because I focused on some other point you made.

Trevor is extremely brain dead. The perfect candidate for complete take over. Besides, if Killian is going as insane as I think he is, he probably wants to continue that archetype of terror he created known as The Mandarin. If that's the case, who better to become than the person the entire western world already fears?

But truthfully, just between me and you... I think Marvel would just do it for the ticket sales. I mean, heh. Lets face it, I'm sure they want our money. So who was the most famous character in the film besides the heroes? Probably Trevor.

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Old 05-06-2013, 07:52 PM   #44
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John Wilke Booth - a psychopathic actor. Trevor - a psychopathic drug addicted actor.

The thing is Trevor isn't feared anymore. They could easily come out with the truth and he'd just become a joke. Which is the last thing Killian would want.

Most famous? Mandarin, Killian.

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Old 05-06-2013, 08:05 PM   #45
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The movie never states that Killian is behind the Ten Rings, its stating that Killian took use of the terrorist attacks happening and focusing their attention in that its because of one man.

Its nothing but propaganda on Killians part. He's not organizing the ten rings at all, but causing destruction and putting the focus that its BECAUSE of this terrorist groups.

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Old 05-06-2013, 08:34 PM   #46
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Right. He's not out there giving terrorists orders. He wants to own the war of terror. So he pushes the envelope and creates a new level of terror... going after the President himself. I'm sure through use of his actor, he even invigorates the 10 Rings cells across the world, who see this mysterious figurehead finally... and the figure head catches the President and kills him (or so Killian hoped).

Supply and demand. He'd control both sides of the conflict to a degree, and profit himself immensely.

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Old 05-06-2013, 08:41 PM   #47
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Which is not something un-common, there are times when terrorist groups take claim for attacks or deaths that they have nothing to do with, just to expand their power amongst the people, to spread more fear.

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Old 05-06-2013, 10:39 PM   #48
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Not really they made it specifically a point in the comic prelude which always sticks true to Marvel's intentions and was made very clear, so I'd put all this theory that "Killian wasn't behind the ten rings" along the same lines of thinking as "Trevor IS the ONLY Mandarin still! " The details we don't know, but I don't know how Marvel could specify Killian was Mandarin from the start any clearer than they have for those who dig into everything they put out.

Well, the prequel comics, even though they're not widely read and their content isn't referenced in the movies at all (i.e., general audiences have no knowledge of what those books contain), are certainly considered official MCU canon by Marvel Studios. So yeah, if the books say Ten Rings is still active, and that Killian has been fronting them since at least IM1 days, then it's really an open and shut case.

I'm just trying to retroactively put the jigsaw pieces back together on IM1 and IM2... I think the best theory about their existence right now was posted above, when someone postulated that Ten Rings *is* still around, and the only reason they're not disavowing Trevor as an impostor is that they're still taking orders from Killian. And always have been.

Also, regarding the discussion about Killian possibly being able to mind control his soldiers through Extremis: after watching IM3, and rewatching IM1, I now believe that we already saw Extremis in *2008.* That little device that Stane used to paralyze Raza showed vfx that were identical to the Extremis effect in IM3 --- except for the orange glow and the superpowers, of course. So I think in hindsight, Raza *was* an Extremis soldier.

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Old 05-06-2013, 10:41 PM   #49
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I want to see a Mandarin on screen, pose a threat to Tony Stark, who has the appearance and mannerisms of The Mandarin from the IM3 trailers. Because that Mandarin is frightening, threatening and interesting. And Killian is not.
Well, that's over and done with now.

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Which is not something un-common, there are times when terrorist groups take claim for attacks or deaths that they have nothing to do with, just to expand their power amongst the people, to spread more fear.
lol, that's the exact opposite of what happens. Terrorist groups frequently deny culpability in attacks that they actually had nothing to do with.

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Old 05-06-2013, 11:01 PM   #50
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wait, the prelude comics say that killian was behind the events of iron man 1?

man, the explanation that the 10 rings members all died in iron man 1 and killian appropriated the name is so much better imo...

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