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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
Hate it! 104 41.27%
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:46 PM   #251
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I know they can bring AIM back as a revamped company or full-on terrorist group kind of thing (that's why I said "Or at least AIM"); it's just the way the organization was handled in IM3 as an exclusively giant think-tank for Killian's Extremis and profiteering will make it a little tricky to believably portray. For example, if the film makers want to preserve AIM's image as a hybridization with the Ten Rings, they'll pretty much have to suddenly introduce some new underling character that devoutly believed in Killian's goals or make it a branch of Hydra or something else out of left field. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible or even difficult to bring AIM back, just that it will definitely require finesse.

And as a side note, no, it isn't the same as Apple simply moving on after Steve Jobs died because Steve Jobs and Apple didn't very publicly terrorize the United States and kidnap the president. A company can't just roll with that and say, "yeah, we've made mistakes, but we're taking things in a new direction now! It's fine! Really! "
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:51 PM   #252
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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like BP
I laughed, but just in case you're using that as a serious rebuttal: terrorism and kidnapping the president to essentially improve finances and control is just a wee bit different than spilling some oil.

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Old 05-09-2013, 02:52 PM   #253
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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It's about wasting potential...The Mandarin was squandered foolishly. Rewatch him in the trailers and tell me that he wouldn't have been the best villain in any recent super hero movie in recent years.
He wasn't squandered at all.
He would have been a generic villain if he had been portrayed like in the trailers.

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Old 05-09-2013, 03:30 PM   #254
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by TheHeatKitchen View Post
Norman Osbourn is insane in TASM2. Crazy business man, injected with a serum that heals him, drive him mad and turns him into a ghoulish goblin creature. He threatens Spiderman publicly.

They finally meet and fight, he is defeated by Spiderman. A man's image appears on a screen telling Spiderman that wasn't really Norman, but he is the real Norman. He's just a sickly man in his death bed while the Green Goblin Spiderman defeated was just a lab experiment at Oscorp, a failed attempt to create a cure for his disease. He tells him that upon his death, his facilities and the Goblin weapons will self destruct. He then laughs maniacally and drifts into death as Spiderman attempts to escape the explosions.

How would you feel about that?
:/ trust me I'm on your side here. And if they took Osborn out of Goblin I'd be thoroughly displeased. But the entire time you said that I was on the edge of my seat thinking, "It's Harry the entire time. D:"

So while I don't think that's the best example, I see where you are coming from. There's just always been an air of mystery around Green Goblin and which Osborn he actually is.

But take that logic and apply it to any other supervillain. It definitely applies.

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Old 05-09-2013, 04:43 PM   #255
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by TheHeatKitchen View Post
Norman Osbourn is insane in TASM2. Crazy business man, injected with a serum that heals him, drive him mad and turns him into a ghoulish goblin creature. He threatens Spiderman publicly.

They finally meet and fight, he is defeated by Spiderman. A man's image appears on a screen telling Spiderman that wasn't really Norman, but he is the real Norman. He's just a sickly man in his death bed while the Green Goblin Spiderman defeated was just a lab experiment at Oscorp, a failed attempt to create a cure for his disease. He tells him that upon his death, his facilities and the Goblin weapons will self destruct. He then laughs maniacally and drifts into death as Spiderman attempts to escape the explosions.

How would you feel about that?
that could be kinda cool. new spin on things lol. I'm of the group that as long as it's executed well on screen and works within the context of the movie then I'm alright with it, not being a comic reader helps with that notion lol.

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Old 05-09-2013, 04:49 PM   #256
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I laughed, but just in case you're using that as a serious rebuttal: terrorism and kidnapping the president to essentially improve finances and control is just a wee bit different than spilling some oil.
I was being funny

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Old 05-09-2013, 05:01 PM   #257
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by signifyingmnky View Post
Yinsen saved his life...and then Tony creates an arc reactor out of scraps that powers an improvised power armor from scraps. You present it as if Yinsen built the Mark I himself and Tony fell over it. Yinsen gave Tony a second chance, literally and figuratively, but Tony created Iron Man suit that freed them of his own mind. Then used it for good. That's the core of the character and his mythology. It's not the same as chancing upon a crashed alien ship and repurposing their tech.
My point is, you said finding the rings somehow cheapens Mandarin as a character, presumably because he didn't just create magic rings himself (even though he had to study the origin and nature of it to master using them in the first place).

But Stark's whole idea of making a miniature version of the Arc Reactor might not have happened without Yinsen improvising with the battery. That's almost like saying Bruce Banner is a ripoff because he had no idea beforehand that he might become a rampaging monster from exposure to Gamma Radiation.

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Stane didn't care how it worked, only that it worked so he could use it for money and power. Kill Tony, inherit the empire and sell arc powered iron suits. He was not a scientist, never even dirtied his hands in the construction. As for the rings, their origin is as important as the villain who wields them. The Chtauri were grunts, cannon fodder, a means to an end. The villain was Loki. They were his tool, much as the rings would be Mandarin's...and we certainly found out how Loki acquired their service and from who.
Once again, that's not my point. You said it would take this massive amount of time to show The Mandarin learning how to use the rings, establish his intelligence, and all this other stuff. But we witnessed Obadiah, who we assume never stepped foot in the Iron Monger previously, have no problems navigating the suit while almost killing Stark with ease. We also never saw Vanko test drive his suit either, he just shows up at the climax ready to do battle.

On the same token, Stark himself had to fumble around half the movie trying to figure out how everything worked in IM1, not to mention Pepper in IM3 almost killing herself because she didn't know how the thing operated either. Point being, there's really no consistency when it comes to that, and while it would be nice and logical to see The Mandarin discovering and learning how all this works, it's far from a necessity just based on what we already saw in this trilogy.

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For all we know, SHIELD and Captain America if the Mandarin was on their agenda at all, were chasing the same trail Iron Patriot was.
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Killian
wasn't on anyone's radar.Not even Tony's.
And again...that wasn't my point. The Mandarin isn't even the crux of my argument here. You said The Mandarin's inclusion would call into question why the Avengers weren't aware of his existence. But If Air Force One is attacked, if the President of the United States goes missing, I'd like to think SHIELD and Captain America would somehow be notified pretty damn quick, no matter who was responsible and if they were previously on their radar or not. And obviously, they were nowhere to be found. So I don't feel like The Mandarin would necessitate the Avengers inclusion if an attack on the President didn't necessitate SHIELD & Captain America.

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Old 05-09-2013, 05:54 PM   #258
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin View Post
:/ trust me I'm on your side here. And if they took Osborn out of Goblin I'd be thoroughly displeased. But the entire time you said that I was on the edge of my seat thinking, "It's Harry the entire time. D:"

So while I don't think that's the best example, I see where you are coming from. There's just always been an air of mystery around Green Goblin and which Osborn he actually is.

But take that logic and apply it to any other supervillain. It definitely applies.
Eh, i was at work spitballing a random idea. I rushed it. But at least you get the point.

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Old 05-09-2013, 06:11 PM   #259
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Destructus86 View Post
He wasn't squandered at all.
He would have been a generic villain if he had been portrayed like in the trailers.
Believe what you want.

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Old 05-09-2013, 06:48 PM   #260
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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My point is, you said finding the rings somehow cheapens Mandarin as a character, presumably because he didn't just create magic rings himself (even though he had to study the origin and nature of it to master using them in the first place).

But Stark's whole idea of making a miniature version of the Arc Reactor might not have happened without Yinsen improvising with the battery. That's almost like saying Bruce Banner is a ripoff because he had no idea beforehand that he might become a rampaging monster from exposure to Gamma Radiation.
You can give Yinsen credit for saving Tony's life, but suggesting that somehow minimizes the effort and knowledge Tony employed creating a miniaturized version of his own arc reactor and designing the Mark I is a stretch. Implying that the experience is similar to Mandarin finding the rings is incredulous. The Mandarin has skills that speak to his value. He is a scientist himself, he has great, if misused intelligence. He has great skill as a martial artist, enough in fact to challenge Iron Man with his bare hands. That already makes him a great foil. The rings don't add to those strengths and don't compare like they do to Tony using his own knowledge and will to create his armor.

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Originally Posted by Doc Samson
Once again, that's not my point. You said it would take this massive amount of time to show The Mandarin learning how to use the rings, establish his intelligence, and all this other stuff. But we witnessed Obadiah, who we assume never stepped foot in the Iron Monger previously, have no problems navigating the suit while almost killing Stark with ease. We also never saw Vanko test drive his suit either, he just shows up at the climax ready to do battle.
If the rings have value to Mandarin's character and the challenge he poses to Tony, that must be shown to us on screen. We should know why they're important. Obadiah's ruthlessness, his willingness to sell dangerous weapons to the worst elements to enrich and empower himself was what was important to his character. You're right, he never tested the suit, and that's why Tony was able to outsmart him in it. He did the homework, he knew the tech's flaws. Vanko's different. Quite a bit of time was spent on Vanko to establish his scientific knowledge and capability. He built an arc reactor of his own and unique uses for it. He commandeered Hammer's drones right under the man's nose, and built an armor of his own in his free time. We understand from all of that, that the nature of the threat he posed to Tony. Again, if the rings have real value to the Mandarin and why he poses a threat to Tony, they require the same amount of exposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Samson
On the same token, Stark himself had to fumble around half the movie trying to figure out how everything worked in IM1, not to mention Pepper in IM3 almost killing herself because she didn't know how the thing operated either. Point being, there's really no consistency when it comes to that, and while it would be nice and logical to see The Mandarin discovering and learning how all this works, it's far from a necessity just based on what we already saw in this trilogy.
Tony giving himself a crash course in the physics and dangers of aviation is not a mark against him. It actually adds to his character. Shows us that on top of his ingenuity, he's a fast learner and though rash, impulsive and thrill seeking, he does his homework. And again, it helped him with Stane. Mandarin finding some alien power rings and figuring out how to use them shows he's smart and a quick learner at using someone else's tech. To make him a true archnemesis, you need something that establish him as an equal for Tony on some level. The rings don't establish him as that equal. The Mandarin's other qualities do however, and they were on display in the film.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Samson
And again...that wasn't my point. The Mandarin isn't even the crux of my argument here. You said The Mandarin's inclusion would call into question why the Avengers weren't aware of his existence. But If Air Force One is attacked, if the President of the United States goes missing, I'd like to think SHIELD and Captain America would somehow be notified pretty damn quick, no matter who was responsible and if they were previously on their radar or not. And obviously, they were nowhere to be found. So I don't feel like The Mandarin would necessitate the Avengers inclusion if an attack on the President didn't necessitate SHIELD & Captain America.
Lastly, on Cap, the Avengers and Shield. No one knew the Mandarin's game behind the scenes. No one even knew there was a behind the scenes game going. Tony only found out because his personal significance to the Mandarin's plan, even given that, had he not checked the lead Jarvis gave him (which he brushed off initially) not even he would have known. Cap, the Avengers and Shield likely knew the President was missing, but they didn't know where or who had him. In fact, if no one knew whether he got off the plane, they might have thought him dead. It made sense that they weren't involved in this story because the Mandarin's plan was that good, and Tony had a personal stake.

But if this had been a Mandarin showing off his awesome rings and what they could do, so soon after New York? It wouldn't have been believable that the Avengers and Shield didn't make an appearance.


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Old 05-09-2013, 07:28 PM   #261
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by signifyingmnky View Post
The Mandarin has skills that speak to his value. He is a scientist himself, he has great, if misused intelligence. He has great skill as a martial artist, enough in fact to challenge Iron Man with his bare hands. That already makes him a great foil. The rings don't add to those strengths and don't compare like they do to Tony using his own knowledge and will to create his armor.
Maybe and maybe not. What it does do is make him more of threat to have to deal with due to him wielding this incredible power.

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Originally Posted by signifyingmnky View Post
If the rings have value to Mandarin's character and the challenge he poses to Tony, that must be shown to us on screen. We should know why they're important. Obadiah's ruthlessness, his willingness to sell dangerous weapons to the worst elements to enrich and empower himself was what was important to his character. You're right, he never tested the suit, and that's why Tony was able to outsmart him in it. He did the homework, he knew the tech's flaws. Vanko's different. Quite a bit of time was spent on Vanko to establish his scientific knowledge and capability. He built an arc reactor of his own and unique uses for it. He commandeered Hammer's drones right under the man's nose, and built an armor of his own in his free time. We understand from all of that, that the nature of the threat he posed to Tony. Again, if the rings have real value to the Mandarin and why he poses a threat to Tony, they require the same amount of exposition.


This argument is flawed. Your contention is that ti'd require a good hour to sufficiently highlight and convey the whole back story and learning process of the rings and I'm telling you that within a matter of minutes, if that, whether together or broken up through a film or through simple exposition with visual cues, the exact same information can be conveyed just as succinctly and far more expediently.

In case you missed it on page 9, here it is again.

This kind of thing is not very difficult to do in a movie and is not unlike any other instances in hundreds of films of dealing with introducing concepts and characters building off of previously established idea, and it wouldn't take over an hour to do. Assuming they decided to go this route in the movie, or any other potential future movie, how difficult would it be to have shots showing the Chitauri technology being procured directly after the events of Avengers, maybe by a smuggler or some sort of Ten Rings agent / sympathizer embedded in New York before S.H.I.E.L.D. can properly lock things down and get to work. Have that person provide the artifacts to Mandarin and have him get to work. That would probably be a matter of minutes, if that, of the start of such a film / story and any lingering details that the writers would feel needs explanation could be presented as exposition by Mandarin himself during an initial encounter with Iron Man, either as simple exposition or with flashback style shots thrown in during his brief explanation. That's how you naturally introduce this stuff while keep the story moving without having to spend an hour first detailing everything in some sort of "real time".

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Originally Posted by signifyingmnky View Post
Mandarin finding some alien power rings and figuring out how to use them shows he's smart and a quick learner at using someone else's tech. To make him a true archnemesis, you need something that establish him as an equal for Tony on some level. The rings don't establish him as that equal. The Mandarin's other qualities do however, and they were on display in the film.
Again no. While his other qualities establish him as an equal, his rings establish him is an even greater threat. While his scientific prowess put him up there with Stark and his martial arts abilities make him a dangerous foe to engage in combat, combined with the power of rings that can emit fire blasts capable of heating Stark through his armor, ice blasts capable of freezing Stark through his armor, electrical energy, the ability to mentally control others, blinding white light, enveloping darkness, a disintegration beam capable of destroying the bonds between the atoms and molecules, a vortex beam that can be used a weapon to manipulate air currents, impact beams of various degrees of force and a matter-rearranger capable of manipulating the atomic and molecular structures of matter, not to mention the combined might of all of them; that's one powerful and dangerous character.

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Old 05-09-2013, 07:30 PM   #262
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I get the sense that the public doesn't even know killain's involvement and to the general media Tevorr is still preserved as the Mandarin.

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Old 05-09-2013, 07:48 PM   #263
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Didn't have a problem with the twist on the character, but it did leave me wanting to see a movie featuring the initial serious version of the Mandarin played again by Kingsley.
Kingsley would be a horrible Mandarin. Mandarin is really more like Killian, a mad scientist and superhuman martial artist who will karate-chop you to pieces and steal your woman. Really, Killian was Mandarin with his race changed.

Kingsley would, however, make an awesome Yellow Claw. Yellow Claw being the little old man who will calmly and logically and philosophically tell you why you have to die in agony.

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Old 05-09-2013, 07:56 PM   #264
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Norman Osbourn is insane in TASM2. Crazy business man, injected with a serum that heals him, drive him mad and turns him into a ghoulish goblin creature. He threatens Spiderman publicly.

They finally meet and fight, he is defeated by Spiderman. A man's image appears on a screen telling Spiderman that wasn't really Norman, but he is the real Norman. He's just a sickly man in his death bed while the Green Goblin Spiderman defeated was just a lab experiment at Oscorp, a failed attempt to create a cure for his disease. He tells him that upon his death, his facilities and the Goblin weapons will self destruct. He then laughs maniacally and drifts into death as Spiderman attempts to escape the explosions.

How would you feel about that?
You mean like Harry Osborn, Nels Van Adder, Phil Urich, Roderick Kingsley, and Jason Macendale? Green Goblin's had so many impostors that you need a scorecard to keep track of who's actually GG, Hobgoblin, Demogoblin, Grey Goblin or Sundown or whoever at any given moment.

That's yet another reason that all this complaining rings hollow from "fanboys" --- REAL Marvel fanboys know damn well that these kinds of switcheroos happen ALL THE TIME in the comics. So IM3's Mandarin Twist is utterly "faithful to the source material" in that sense.

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Old 05-09-2013, 08:01 PM   #265
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I've never been that big of fan of the Mandarin. I realized he was hard to adapt to film and really didn't want him in any films. Marvel seemed to be shying away from him, because they couldn't find an angle on making him work. Apparently, their angle was to make him a non-character.

They want to borrow the Ra's al Ghul bait and switch? Fine. But Trevor is just too much of a yuckster Russell Brand character. It's funny for a bit but the lack of any seriousness for a guy involved with terrorists killing people seems a bit inappropriate.

Which would be more tolerable if Killian was an interesting villain, but he's not. He's just a typical slimeball whose origin revolves around his feelings being hurt when he has to watch fireworks alone on a roof. Poor baby. If his nerdy origin wasn't so god-awful stereotypical film nerd, he might have been a more sympathetic character. We get to see nothing from him regarding an arc. He's super-nerd and then super-evil. And above all else, we have (once again) an arms dealer as the villain. Stane, Hammer, and now Killian. All guys whose evilness comes from wanting to make and sell weapons to the US.

Add in the stereotypical kidnap-girlfriend and threaten-the-President tropes, and the movie's villain story is really rather uninspired. Even if he hires funny henchmen.

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Old 05-09-2013, 08:05 PM   #266
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Again no. While his other qualities establish him as an equal, his rings establish him is an even greater threat. While his scientific prowess put him up there with Stark and his martial arts abilities make him a dangerous foe to engage in combat, combined with the power of rings that can emit fire blasts capable of heating Stark through his armor, ice blasts capable of freezing Stark through his armor, electrical energy, the ability to mentally control others, blinding white light, enveloping darkness, a disintegration beam capable of destroying the bonds between the atoms and molecules, a vortex beam that can be used a weapon to manipulate air currents, impact beams of various degrees of force and a matter-rearranger capable of manipulating the atomic and molecular structures of matter, not to mention the combined might of all of them; that's one powerful and dangerous character.


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Which would be more tolerable if Killian was an interesting villain, but he's not. He's just a typical slimeball whose origin revolves around his feelings being hurt when he has to watch fireworks alone on a roof. Poor baby. If his nerdy origin wasn't so god-awful stereotypical film nerd, he might have been a more sympathetic character. We get to see nothing from him regarding an arc. He's super-nerd and then super-evil. And above all else, we have (once again) an arms dealer as the villain. Stane, Hammer, and now Killian. All guys whose evilness comes from wanting to make and sell weapons to the US.

Add in the stereotypical kidnap-girlfriend and threaten-the-President tropes, and the movie's villain story is really rather uninspired. Even if he hires funny henchmen.

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Old 05-09-2013, 08:07 PM   #267
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Well the thing is, Mandarin's origin has him as a metaphor for the military industrial complex. He is an aristocrat who spends all of his fiefdom's money turning himself into a super-soldier, a mad scientist/martial-artist/tactician combo. The result makes him, and by extension his fiefdom, broke. So he's a metaphor for rampant, pointless military spending.

So Killiandarin, being a modern adaptation of him, would have to be an exploitative part of the military industrial complex.

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Old 05-09-2013, 08:20 PM   #268
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I've never been that big of fan of the Mandarin. I realized he was hard to adapt to film and really didn't want him in any films. Marvel seemed to be shying away from him, because they couldn't find an angle on making him work. Apparently, their angle was to make him a non-character.

They want to borrow the Ra's al Ghul bait and switch? Fine. But Trevor is just too much of a yuckster Russell Brand character. It's funny for a bit but the lack of any seriousness for a guy involved with terrorists killing people seems a bit inappropriate.

Which would be more tolerable if Killian was an interesting villain, but he's not. He's just a typical slimeball whose origin revolves around his feelings being hurt when he has to watch fireworks alone on a roof. Poor baby. If his nerdy origin wasn't so god-awful stereotypical film nerd, he might have been a more sympathetic character. We get to see nothing from him regarding an arc. He's super-nerd and then super-evil. And above all else, we have (once again) an arms dealer as the villain. Stane, Hammer, and now Killian. All guys whose evilness comes from wanting to make and sell weapons to the US.

Add in the stereotypical kidnap-girlfriend and threaten-the-President tropes, and the movie's villain story is really rather uninspired. Even if he hires funny henchmen.

What's so hard to understand about Killian's arc? Rather than being the "boring, uninspired" stereotypical "REVENGE!!!!" that those of you who weren't paying attention come up with, instead it's about Killian feeling a sense of self-loathing and failure at NYE99 when he realized that neither Stark nor anybody else was going to listen to him or give him a chance to show the world his greatness. But Bern turned out to be a blessing in disguise because, while Tony dumped him, he found instead the person who would turn his life around completely: Maya Hansen. Through her work, he was able to heal himself, make himself into a god, create a program that at least looks noble on paper (i.e., healing wounded warriors), and start making a difference and an impact on the world.

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Old 05-09-2013, 08:30 PM   #269
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

There's also the subtext that Killian wanted to be perfect in mind and body, an ubermensche Nazi ideal type. And that part of that was becoming like the biggest success he knew: Tony Stark as Killian saw him: completely predatory and sociopathic, an arms-dealer, scientist, and playboy. He wanted to become perfect, but had a very twisted idea about what that means.

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Old 05-09-2013, 08:43 PM   #270
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I'm not that big of a comic buff, but I'm gonna have to side with the people that didn't like the twist. If this wasn't Iron Man and Mandarin and it were just a normal run of the mill action flick it'd have been a great twist for a film and it was pulled off beautifully because of Kingsley and how great of a performance it was. However this is the Mandarin. Iron Man's arch nemesis. Iron Man fans have been waiting since the first film to see a showdown between these two, and the build up started with the first film when the 10 rings kidnapped Tony and started the ball in motion. So I can understand why they'd be upset.

Killian may have called himself the Mandarin, but he was basically the Mandarin in name only. Killian had no special traits to distinguish himself as The Mandarin. Not even same background story, nothing. He can say that he's the president before he dies, it doesn't mean that he is.

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Old 05-09-2013, 08:50 PM   #271
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeptron View Post
Killian may have called himself the Mandarin, but he was basically the Mandarin in name only. Killian had no special traits to distinguish himself as The Mandarin.

Yes he did! Yes he goddamned did! He was a mad scientist like The Mandarin. He was a superhuman martial artist capable of karate-chopping the armor to pieces like the Mandarin. He had the Mandarin's dragon-tattoos. He was obsessed with achieving perfection of mind and body like The Mandarin. He was a metaphor for the military industrial complex like The Mandarin. He was a hypermasculine type who views women as trophies like The Mandarin. He was clearly, in terms of themes, in terms of personality, THE MANDARIN.

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:38 PM   #272
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by MichaelChen View Post
Yes he did! Yes he goddamned did! He was a mad scientist like The Mandarin. He was a superhuman martial artist capable of karate-chopping the armor to pieces like the Mandarin. He had the Mandarin's dragon-tattoos. He was obsessed with achieving perfection of mind and body like The Mandarin. He was a metaphor for the military industrial complex like The Mandarin. He was a hypermasculine type who views women as trophies like The Mandarin. He was clearly, in terms of themes, in terms of personality, THE MANDARIN.
I wouldn't go so far to say that Killian was a martial artist. He was just powerful thanks to being exposed to Extremis but had no special martial arts ability per-say to speak of.

Also, lots of people like you are making a big deal about these dragon tattoos to try and convince others how faithful of an adaptation it is, but Mandarin has no dragon tattoos or any other tattoos at all. You can look below.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/.../2760159-1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...nman269p06.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...nman269p05.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/..._shield_26.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/..._shield_26.jpg

This one doesn't count since it seems to be more just a part of his costume, maybe paint.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...1-mandarin.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...530611-ma1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/.../2569848-7.jpg

While it may have looked cool in the movie and seems eastern because it's a dragon, it doesn't really mean much more than that.

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:52 PM   #273
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Not much, although he has appeared a couple of times in the last several years in stories involving the Agents of Atlas. Regardless, it doesn't matter how the Yellow Claw is used, in regards to people complaining about Fu Manchu (which I don't truly get unless Asian people themselves are up in arms about it since Fu Manchu also seems interesting from the one movie I've seen featuring him), Yellow Claw embodies that a lot more than Mandarin does, since that character visually has moved from that for over 3 and a half decades, if not longer, whereas Yellow Claw in one of his more recent appearances a few years ago (drawn very well mind you) still carries that visual for those culturally offended for others.
Except no one is suggesting Yellow Claw be the villain in a major motion picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper View Post
And regarding those culturally offended on behalf of others, what difference does it make if the character's name is The Mandarin. Despite it being the name of a language, it's got other meanings too, and the average person doesn't even sit thinking about all this stuff.
I know the other meaning of the word Mandarin, it is still a very stereotypical name for an Asian character, its like naming an American character "Apple Pie Baseball Man"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper View Post
I was talking about the comics, despite this thread being about Iron Man 3.
Except this is a thread about the movie, if Mandarin's character doesn't fit with the tone the movies have set up. Science vs. mysticism doesn't work with the themes set up in the previous movies.

You do realize that Marvel tried to make Mandarin the villain in the first movie right? But they were having problems making work in the context of the film they making and Mandarin was ultimately abandoned. Would having an true to the comics Mandarin have been worth having an uneven first film that might snuffed out the franchise from the start? And if they couldn't make Mandarin work in the first film, why would he work in this one?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper View Post
I haven't seen that being brought up. I know that in the final installment of Dragon Seed Saga in Iron Man v1 275, I like the stoic regality displayed by Mandarin as he surveys the battle contemplating all that has befallen him and brought him to that moment, even swatting Rhodey like he was nothing for just touching him on the shoulder, before joining in the battle against the Dragons.
I am lazy so I am just going post this video review of that story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F6NStC5iXs

The story had a few plot holes and inconsistent writing. Its an alright, but I am not sure how many would say its one Iron Man's best, up there with Extremist, Armor Wars, Demon in a Bottle, etc.


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Originally Posted by Viper View Post
Probably not. Although in the Matt Fraction Iron Man Annual featuring the Mandarin kidnapping a film director and trying to make a movie about his life, it does show that he is in a dessert setting, with his agent being Raza instead of Wong-Chu, and witnessing Iron Man blast his way out, so who knows.
Its hard to bring that up as a personal connection between the two, when its questionable whether its in cannon or not. Here is the problem with trying to retcon Mandarin into Iron Man's origin, Iron Man's origin gets subjected to so many ret cons to keep him a certain age and make the conflict he got injuried be relevant, that it was only a matter of time before he was retconned out. Instead of trying to make things personal by shoe horning him into Iron Man's origin, why not have him do things to hurt Tony personally in the here and now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper View Post
Also, Mandarin was one of Iron Man's top foes during the Stan Lee days because he was used with more frequently in the Iron Man stories that Stan Lee wrote. Probably based on that, the fact that he was a in close to 20% of the first one hundred Iron Man proper issues including the 100th issue (for that matter appearing in close to 20% of the first volume's run, and in about a third of the issues published in the 4th volume), given how when he did appear it carried more weight than the average Iron Man villain for the most part in that he challenged Iron Man close to his limits, rendered his armor useless in Hands of the Mandarin and unmasked Stark long before he took his identity public.
So Mandarin is Tony Stark's nemesis, because he was the most reoccurring villain back in the Silver age? That seems like giving him the title by default, just because he was a better villain then Melter, Mister Doll and the Red Barbarian, rather having him earn it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper View Post
Besides that, given all those examples above, Red Skull is Captain America's arch nemesis and yet by the criteria above, he shouldn't be either. It just so happens that he had a memorable look and was once of the very few, if only, Captin America foe to return along with him and has made the most appearances tormenting Captain America. They've got no real personal stake either beyond one being American and the other being a Nazi, but that developed over time too given how many times they clashed and an animosity grew.
Except the Super solider program was created to counter the Red Skull in the first place, so Captain America was created to fight the Red Skull. Also Red Skull seems more involved in Captain America's most iconic stories and frankly has way more consistent writing then Mandarin has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper View Post
So too, as acknowledges several times in the comics, especially in later years, there always seems to be something different when Stark realizes he must contend with the Mandarin once again.
But what is that something? Why Iron Man fear Mandarin more then say, Obadiah or Zeke, who managed to hit home far more then Mandarin has. It just seems like Mandarin comes up with schemes to take over the world and Iron Man foils them and Mandarin is just unhappy that Iron Man has foiled his latest scheme. That is pretty basic hero vs. villain stuff, not really arch nemesis material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper View Post
As for his motivations. He's supposed to be born to one of the wealthiest families in China, with his father being a direct descendant of Genghis Khan and his parents dying during his youth, leaving him to raised by his angry and bitter aunt who was angry at the world and passed that hatred on to him (although the Fraction annual implies this might be a lie to conceal a sleazier and more sordid truth). Having spent all the families wealth on studying science and martial arts (or implied by the Annual, illegal wealth) he was evicted and rendered homeless. After wondering and discovering the valley, the ship and the rings, he returns to conquer the area, aided by loyal Chinese followers.
Also while searching for people to help him to understand the rings, he sponsored a local warlord named Wong Chu (shown during the Byrne run), who In turn, kidnapped Stark and Yinsen, prompting the events that would lead Stark to becoming Iron Man.
Okay few things:

1. That whole origin has been subject to ret cons to point of making it needless confusing, because originally the Chinese government seized Mandarin's lands in the revolution, rather then Mandarin spending all his money on his personal interests. The fact that Wong Chu may not even exist anymore kinda furthers muddies the waters and frankly the story with Matt Fracation, makes things more confusing, not less.

2. This origin doesn't really say a lot about the Mandarin as a character. If his aunt taught him to hate the world, how is this reflected in Mandarin's goals. Mandarin's goals often seem like the actions of your average power thirsty villain, not driven by malice like Red Skull is, who often does cruel things even if they nothing to do with bringing him power. It doesn't come off as he driven by hate and the aunt character isn't developed enough to provide much insight into Mandarin as a character. Also some of this might explain why he might conquer China, but why does he want to conquer the world, what kind of vision for the world does he have? It seems like Dr. Doom, Magneto and Red Skull have more established visions for the world they want to create then Mandarin does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper View Post
I thought that Hands of the Mandarin was a good extension of the ideas and direction set out by John Byrne during his run.
Again, there's never any bad characters, only bad writers.
There have been lots of good writers over the years that have done interesting things with Mandarin, despite whatever inconsistencies there may appear to be. But again, that's got nothing to do with the character, that's on the writers who either didn't like what may have been done before, or didn't follow what previous writers had done.
I am not sure how many people would say Hand of the Mandarin was one of the best Iron Man stories, the problem with it, is it tried to establish something about Mandarin, that gets ignored right away.

He hates technology one moment and then he loves it the next. This would be like Red Skull becoming a left wing eco terrorist and then that is forgotten right away or Ra's Al Ghul just becoming a Nazi and that is quickly forgotten. You can't give a character a U turn and then not follow through on it, especially since it does go against a lot of what the character.

What do we know about Mandarin as a character? He loves Genghis Khan, he his power thirsty, kinda one note surface stuff. Besides that almost everything about him is contradicted by something else. In Knauf's story, Mandarin seemed more noble then he usually was, he believed his plan would help humanity and he was willing to sacerfice his own life to achieve that end, skip ahead a few years later and Fracation writes him as a childish, delusional egomaniac that he never would considered the scheme the Knauf Mandarin engaged on. It seems like the Knauf Mandarin was a bit more aware of his flaws, while the Fracation Mandarin seem to regressed into a psychopathic man child, they seem like completely different characters? One moment he hates capitalism and then the next he decides to be a corporate bad guy.

So what is the true version of the Mandarin: the Silver Age Mandarin, the anti technology Mandarin, the Ra's Al Ghul style well intentioned extremist, the crazed and delusional Kim Jong Il stand in?

Here is the thing, Mandarin is not a character, he is an archetype, which is why he doesn't make for a good arch nemesis for Tony. Mandarin can't really be the anti Tony Stark, because his ideology changes so often there no way to contrast it with it with Tony's. Its hard to contrast their personalities, when Mandarin's personality seems to be subject to wild changes. Whether he has a sense of honor or not seems to change all the time, how he views Stark, whether he respects him or just hates seems to change around a lot, how evil he is seems to be inconsistent.

Does he have any sympathetic qualities or is he just a monster? Dos he love anyone besides himself? Does he have any moral standards? The writers can decides who the Mandarin really is, so can you blame the film makers for being wary of using him?

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:53 PM   #274
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper View Post
I wouldn't go so far to say that Killian was a martial artist. He was just powerful thanks to being exposed to Extremis but had no special martial arts ability per-say to speak of.

Also, lots of people like you are making a big deal about these dragon tattoos to try and convince others how faithful of an adaptation it is, but Mandarin has no dragon tattoos or any other tattoos at all. You can look below.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/.../2760159-1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...nman269p06.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...nman269p05.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/..._shield_26.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/..._shield_26.jpg

This one doesn't count since it seems to be more just a part of his costume, maybe paint.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...1-mandarin.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...530611-ma1.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/.../2569848-7.jpg

While it may have looked cool in the movie and seems eastern because it's a dragon, it doesn't really mean much more than that.
The movies are adaptations not direct translations of the comics

Killian was THE MANDARIN and the dragon tattoos was supposed to invoke that imagery. Regardless of whether or not the comic mandarin had tattoos or not.

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Old 05-09-2013, 10:05 PM   #275
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
What's so hard to understand about Killian's arc? Rather than being the "boring, uninspired" stereotypical "REVENGE!!!!" that those of you who weren't paying attention come up with, instead it's about Killian feeling a sense of self-loathing and failure at NYE99 when he realized that neither Stark nor anybody else was going to listen to him or give him a chance to show the world his greatness. But Bern turned out to be a blessing in disguise because, while Tony dumped him, he found instead the person who would turn his life around completely: Maya Hansen. Through her work, he was able to heal himself, make himself into a god, create a program that at least looks noble on paper (i.e., healing wounded warriors), and start making a difference and an impact on the world.
Essentially everything about Killian's story arc is provided strictly through his own dialogue and thus implied...from the beginning of the movie there is absolutely no dramatic build up to the prowess of Killian's strength and intellect or even of the menace of the established Mandarin persona.

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