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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:09 PM   #276
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I am not sure how many people would say Hand of the Mandarin was one of the best Iron Man stories, the problem with it, is it tried to establish something about Mandarin, that gets ignored right away.

He hates technology one moment and then he loves it the next. This would be like Red Skull becoming a left wing eco terrorist and then that is forgotten right away or Ra's Al Ghul just becoming a Nazi and that is quickly forgotten. You can't give a character a U turn and then not follow through on it, especially since it does go against a lot of what the character.

What do we know about Mandarin as a character? He loves Genghis Khan, he his power thirsty, kinda one note surface stuff. Besides that almost everything about him is contradicted by something else. In Knauf's story, Mandarin seemed more noble then he usually was, he believed his plan would help humanity and he was willing to sacerfice his own life to achieve that end, skip ahead a few years later and Fracation writes him as a childish, delusional egomaniac that he never would considered the scheme the Knauf Mandarin engaged on. It seems like the Knauf Mandarin was a bit more aware of his flaws, while the Fracation Mandarin seem to regressed into a psychopathic man child, they seem like completely different characters? One moment he hates capitalism and then the next he decides to be a corporate bad guy.

So what is the true version of the Mandarin: the Silver Age Mandarin, the anti technology Mandarin, the Ra's Al Ghul style well intentioned extremist, the crazed and delusional Kim Jong Il stand in?

Here is the thing, Mandarin is not a character, he is an archetype, which is why he doesn't make for a good arch nemesis for Tony. Mandarin can't really be the anti Tony Stark, because his ideology changes so often there no way to contrast it with it with Tony's. Its hard to contrast their personalities, when Mandarin's personality seems to be subject to wild changes. Whether he has a sense of honor or not seems to change all the time, how he views Stark, whether he respects him or just hates seems to change around a lot, how evil he is seems to be inconsistent.

Does he have any sympathetic qualities or is he just a monster? Dos he love anyone besides himself? Does he have any moral standards? The writers can decides who the Mandarin really is, so can you blame the film makers for being wary of using him?
You'd think a director and screenwriter would like the ambiguity of the Mandarin's motives and personality, since that would give them more leeway to create their own character. The first half of IM3 was certainly on its way to realizing a truly fascinating, frightening, unique villain.

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:11 PM   #277
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Yes he did! Yes he goddamned did! He was a mad scientist like The Mandarin. He was a superhuman martial artist capable of karate-chopping the armor to pieces like the Mandarin. He had the Mandarin's dragon-tattoos. He was obsessed with achieving perfection of mind and body like The Mandarin. He was a metaphor for the military industrial complex like The Mandarin. He was a hypermasculine type who views women as trophies like The Mandarin. He was clearly, in terms of themes, in terms of personality, THE MANDARIN.

The real Mandarin was a force to be feared, a true master of martial arts (who could rip through Iron Man's armor with bare hands), master of alien technology (10 rings), a person who has a strong feeling of honor. Killian was simply a scientist in the comics and honestly should have stayed that way.

How would people feel if Joker, Lex Luthor, Magneto, Green Goblin, Loki, and Red Skull all turned out to be wimpy drunk hired actors in an attempt at a twist?

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:17 PM   #278
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Killian may have called himself the Mandarin, but he was basically the Mandarin in name only. Killian had no special traits to distinguish himself as The Mandarin. Not even same background story, nothing. He can say that he's the president before he dies, it doesn't mean that he is.
Honestly, the more I think about it, I'm not even sure what Killian calling himself The Mandarin actually means. To me, it just meant that it was he who was the mastermind behind the whole thing. Not really saying, literally, that he's The Mandarin, but simply implying that he's responsible for the entity & creation of the plan, from the Ten Rings organization up to and including Trevor's persona.

It didn't seem like, however, that "The Mandarin" is an actual alias others ever referred to him by. I don't think in private he really went by that moniker or was known by it at all.

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How would people feel if Joker, Lex Luthor, Magneto, Green Goblin, Loki, and Red Skull all turned out to be wimpy drunk hired actors in an attempt at a twist?
And that's my main problem with this, it seems as though because Mandarin doesn't have the stature of those other villains in terms of the Marvel Universe, this was ok. But I remember the sheer amount of vitriol on here because of the Joker wearing paint, even though the essence of his character was portrayed almost perfectly. At the same time, making Ducard & Ras Al Ghul an amalgamation didn't even register with most fans because he too didn't enjoy that same iconic status. I guess it's the double standard that's maddening for me. Source material is source material. The fact that Hugh Jackman is like 6'5 bothers the hell out of me, because Wolverine's stature, IMO, is a big part of his character. But certain changes can work when done well, and that's the real bottomline here. This wasn't done well, at all, in my book. It's just differing opinions I suppose...

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:24 PM   #279
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Honestly, the more I think about it, I'm not even sure what Killian calling himself The Mandarin actually means. To me, it just meant that it was he who was the mastermind behind the whole thing. Not really saying, literally, that he's The Mandarin, but simply implying that he's responsible for the entity & creation of the plan, from the Ten Rings organization up to and including Trevor's persona.

It didn't seem like, however, that "The Mandarin" is an actual alias others ever referred to him by. I don't think in private he really went by that moniker or was known by it at all.
The prequel comic did show the leader of the 10 rings being called "the mandarin" by a henchman. Since the face was hidden and Trevor even saying in the movie they mostly kept him in the dark about things I think its safe to assume this leader was meant to be Killian. So technically there is an example of Killian being referred to as the Mandarin. I mean it would make sense for him to have an alias to hide his true identity if he was running a terrorist organization while at the same time working for a government think tank.

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:25 PM   #280
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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You'd think a director and screenwriter would like the ambiguity of the Mandarin's motives and personality, since that would give them more leeway to create their own character. The first half of IM3 was certainly on its way to realizing a truly fascinating, frightening, unique villain.
Perhaps, I was just asking questions about why Mandarin is considered Iron Man's arch nemesis. But do I think Mandarin would have to have a good reason for his actions, besides what we got in the first half of the movie, all he did was say threatening, but ultimately meaningless dialogue. The fortune cookie speech sounds cool, but really doesn't say anything. Either he needs a good reason to hate America or his terrorist attacks should have served a greater purpose, all the surface stuff was a good start, but it needed more development for Mandarin to be a great villain.

However does anyone think the nearly 70 year Ben Kingsley would have made for a good final battle against RDJ?

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Honestly, the more I think about it, I'm not even sure what Killian calling himself The Mandarin actually means. To me, it just meant that it was he who was the mastermind behind the whole thing. Not really saying, literally, that he's The Mandarin, but simply implying that he's responsible for the entity & creation of the plan, from the Ten Rings organization up to and including Trevor's persona.

It didn't seem like, however, that "The Mandarin" is an actual alias others ever referred to him by. I don't think in private he really went by that moniker or was known by it at all.



And that's my main problem with this, it seems as though because Mandarin doesn't have the stature of those other villains in terms of the Marvel Universe, this was ok. But I remember the sheer amount of vitriol on here because of the Joker wearing paint, even though the essence of his character was portrayed almost perfectly. At the same time, making Ducard & Ras Al Ghul an amalgamation didn't even register with most fans because he too didn't enjoy that same iconic status. I guess it's the double standard that's maddening for me. Source material is source material. The fact that Hugh Jackman is like 6'5 bothers the hell out of me, because Wolverine's stature, IMO, is a big part of his character. But certain changes can work when done well, and that's the real bottomline here. This wasn't done well, at all, in my book. It's just differing opinions I suppose...
So would Wolverine have been better if they got someone short who didn't fit the character as well? How did the Ducard twist ruin Ra's Al Ghul?

I get why some people hate the twist, but suggesting that almost no changes should be made, that Wolverine should be really short, even if that limits the amount of actors who can audition for the role? A word for word adaption of the comics is not feasible and makes for rather predictable stories.

Would Iron Man 2 have been better if Whiplash was just a greedy thug like he was in the comics and he just tried to rob banks with whips for 2 hours?


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Old 05-09-2013, 09:41 PM   #281
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Perhaps, I was just asking questions about why Mandarin is considered Iron Man's arch nemesis. But do I think Mandarin would have to have a good reason for his actions, besides what we got in the first half of the movie, all he did was say threatening, but ultimately meaningless dialogue. The fortune cookie speech sounds cool, but really doesn't say anything. Either he needs a good reason to hate America or his terrorist attacks should have served a greater purpose, all the surface stuff was a good start, but it needed more development for Mandarin to be a great villain.

However does anyone think the nearly 70 year Ben Kingsley would have made for a good final battle against RDJ?
I do. I mean, we've had 60 year old Stane, 65 year old Magneto, and we're about to have a 60 year old Green Goblin. Doesn't really matter.

And hell, Nick Fury is now almost 65. And he was still a badass last year. Jumping out of helicopters, shooting rocket launchers.

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:48 PM   #282
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I do. I mean, we've had 60 year old Stane, 65 year old Magneto, and we're about to have a 60 year old Green Goblin. Doesn't really matter.

And hell, Nick Fury is now almost 65. And he was still a badass last year. Jumping out of helicopters, shooting rocket launchers.
Stane and Magneto relied on special effects, they were not trying to use kung fu or something. Nick Fury shot one rocket, he didn't get into a giant fist fight near the end.

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:51 PM   #283
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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So would Wolverine have been better if they got someone short who didn't fit the character as well? How did the Ducard twist ruin Ra's Al Ghul?

I get why some people hate the twist, but suggesting that almost no changes should be made, that Wolverine should be really short, even if that limits the amount of actors who can audition for the role? A word for word adaption of the comics is not feasible and makes for rather predictable stories.

Would Iron Man 2 have been better if Whiplash was just a greedy thug like he was in the comics and he just tried to rob banks with whips for 2 hours?
I'm not suggesting that at all. On the contrary, I'm saying when changes work, then they're acceptable, just like anything in the comics. Hence, the Wolverine reference, because yes, while he physically is different, Jackman does the role justice, so it works and all is well with the world. Just like the Joker wearing makeup, or any other number of changes. This particular one, IMO, didn't work on any level. But that's just me.

On a side note however, I do think Crimson Dynamo would've worked just fine for IM2, instead of some sort of combination with Whiplash.

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:56 PM   #284
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Stane and Magneto relied on special effects, they were not trying to use kung fu or something. Nick Fury shot one rocket, he didn't get into a giant fist fight near the end.
Wait... Killian wasn't using special effects?

It sucks you think age is a factor in fictional fighting skill. I guess you hate Yoda, Master Splinter and Gandalf. Do you think Ras Al Ghul was hugely affected by being 20 years older than Bruce Wayne? Or did it come down to the will to act?

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Old 05-09-2013, 10:09 PM   #285
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Wait... Killian wasn't using special effects?

It sucks you think age is a factor in fictional fighting skill. I guess you hate Yoda, Master Splinter and Gandalf. Do you think Ras Al Ghul was hugely affected by being 20 years older than Bruce Wayne? Or did it come down to the will to act?
Yoda is a puppet and computer generated image of an alien...not a human being.

Gandalf did not indulge in hand-to-hand combat: with the occasional sword thrust noted, most of his "fighting" was energy attacks and spells from his staff.

Both of the al Ghul's had limited fight scenes: the final battle in IM3 exceeded five minutes, while each of the al Ghuls had equal to or less than two minutes of fights (the rail fight was short: a considerable amount of it was him throttling Bruce.)

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Old 05-09-2013, 10:15 PM   #286
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Gandalf did not indulge in hand-to-hand combat: with the occasional sword thrust noted, most of his "fighting" was energy attacks and spells from his staff.
And what would be the nature of the majority of Mandarin's attacks, with two hands full of magical rings?

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Old 05-09-2013, 10:22 PM   #287
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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And what would be the nature of the majority of Mandarin's attacks, with two hands full of magical rings?
If he fought like comic Mandarin, mostly hand to hand. While comic Mandarin has ten rings, he mostly uses the rings to set up martial arts cheapshots. Like he'll create a bunch of illusions of himself, then karate-chop Iron Man while Iron Man doesn't know which Mandarin to dodge.

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Old 05-09-2013, 10:22 PM   #288
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Shane Black reaches out to angry fanboys to talk with them about the Mandarin twist:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhugh...talk-about-it/

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Old 05-09-2013, 10:26 PM   #289
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Black explained the difficulties in adapting certain elements due to their origins and nature in the comics, and how hard it is to surprise audiences when so many of them will have read all the stories while the media publishes articles detailing the characters and sources of inspiration to the point of removing a lot of the surprises. He talked about the need to take characters and stories and approach them with a new perspective relevant to our modern world and modern events. Overcoming inherent problems with some characters and their backgrounds, making them fit into a story with modern relevance while turning our expectations on their heads and even surprising fans, is a pretty impressive — and admirable — set of goals. Even more significant is that it succeeded.
Passage from the above article.

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Old 05-09-2013, 10:27 PM   #290
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

On a much, much more interesting note, I just learned Ian McDiarmid was only 35 when he first played Palpatine.

That. Is pretty awesome.

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Old 05-09-2013, 10:29 PM   #291
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Even though I despised the prequels, McDiarmid was the one component of them that I enjoyed. He was awesome in Revenge of the Sith. It is a pity that his film contributions have dried up, as he is an excellent actor (see Sleepy Hollow.)

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"I've known since I first took over the series that I wanted to eventually have someone else pick up the hammer," says the writer. "It's kind of a time-honored Thor tradition at this point, isn't it? Going back to the days of Beta Ray Bill."
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:42 PM   #292
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I'm not suggesting that at all. On the contrary, I'm saying when changes work, then they're acceptable, just like anything in the comics. Hence, the Wolverine reference, because yes, while he physically is different, Jackman does the role justice, so it works and all is well with the world. Just like the Joker wearing makeup, or any other number of changes. This particular one, IMO, didn't work on any level. But that's just me.

On a side note however, I do think Crimson Dynamo would've worked just fine for IM2, instead of some sort of combination with Whiplash.
Fair enough, even I have been arguing against the comic book Mandarin, I can sympathize with people who hate the twist. Killian is alright villain, but he is not great. Everyone has characters they like, that others don't. I can even see some of the appeal of the character, he is more ambitious then a lot of Iron Man villains and because he is an international villain, Iron Man has travel to exotic locations to fight him, rather then just staying in America. I can also see why the kung fu and power rings are kinda fun. I do think some of that is hard to work into the Iron Man movies they have set up.

Its part of what makes Ra's Al Ghul appealing, but Ra's has a better defined ideology, a better defined relationship with Batman and an interesting relationship with his daughter.

I just don't see why Mandarin is Iron Man arch nemesis, I can see some of the aesthetic appeal of the character, but to me Mandarin lacks the interesting character stuff that I think an arch nemesis should have.

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Old 05-09-2013, 11:20 PM   #293
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I just wached Avengers again on DVD and the picture should have been nominated for best picture. And won.

There is no way that love of the characters that Joss has that he is not going to pay respect to the Mandarin. Joss is not letting it go down lke that. Joss loves the comics too much. The Mandarin will be bak! Trust me! The Mandarin will be back! The True Mandarin!

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Old 05-09-2013, 11:33 PM   #294
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I just wached Avengers again on DVD and the picture should have been nominated for best picture. And won.

There is no way that love of the characters that Joss has that he is not going to pay respect to the Mandarin. Joss is not letting it go down lke that. Joss loves the comics too much. The Mandarin will be bak! Trust me! The Mandarin will be back! The True Mandarin!

Avengers 2: The Masters of Evil! Believe it!
Yeah. #MandarinLives just like Coulson. Or, if you prefer #MandarinExists.

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Old 05-09-2013, 11:49 PM   #295
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Shane Black reaches out to angry fanboys to talk with them about the Mandarin twist:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhugh...talk-about-it/

Too bad the angry fanboys aren't going to read it. They'd rather be alone with their suffering rather than listen to reason.

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Old 05-09-2013, 11:58 PM   #296
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Too bad the angry fanboys aren't going to read it. They'd rather be alone with their suffering rather than listen to reason.
I hate being alone with my suffering and I love to share it with others, but I can't find the actual interview anywhere. That Forbes link doesn't show what was actually said. Anyone help me out?

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Old 05-10-2013, 01:10 AM   #297
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Tony mocked the guy for nothing more than reaching out to him. He reached out to other brilliant minds for a positive goal, and Tony, possibly the most brilliant mind out there went out his way to hurt him.
That scene is one of the weakest parts of the movie, in my opinion. I mean, I'm sure that what you just said is what the filmmakers want us to take away from that scene, but the way it's filmed makes Killian look like a complete idiot. Yeah, great idea dude, pitch your science to somebody at a party on New Years Eve 99.

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Old 05-10-2013, 04:00 AM   #298
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The movies are adaptations not direct translations of the comics

Killian was THE MANDARIN and the dragon tattoos was supposed to invoke that imagery. Regardless of whether or not the comic mandarin had tattoos or not.
:

Clearly weren't reading what came before, were you?

I know it's an adaptation. As if you're imparting some vital trinket of information here.

What the poster I was replying to was saying was this:

Quote:
He had the Mandarin's dragon-tattoos.
Trying to point out that this was a visual cue left in tact from, the source material, either being faithful or some kind of nod to fans, and I was pointing out there no Mandarin dragon tattoos.

So while the movie version had them, which is all well and good for them, they could have just as easily not had this and it's would have made no iota of difference. Therefore debunking this aspect of the posters argument


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Old 05-10-2013, 05:27 AM   #299
jmc
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Doc Samson View Post
Honestly, the more I think about it, I'm not even sure what Killian calling himself The Mandarin actually means. To me, it just meant that it was he who was the mastermind behind the whole thing. Not really saying, literally, that he's The Mandarin, but simply implying that he's responsible for the entity & creation of the plan, from the Ten Rings organization up to and including Trevor's persona.

It didn't seem like, however, that "The Mandarin" is an actual alias others ever referred to him by. I don't think in private he really went by that moniker or was known by it at all.
I think people are taking the whole 'he is the real Mandarin' way too literally, he's the brains of the whole operation, but I don't think Killian actually considers himself to be someone called 'The Mandarin'. The whole thing with The Mandarin is that he isn't real, he's a piece of fiction and doesn't exist in any form. Killian is the bad guy, but he's no more the Mandarin than what Trevor is because it's all smoke and mirrors in the first place. The Mandarin is there as an illusion to deceive the world within the movie, as well as us.

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Old 05-10-2013, 05:40 AM   #300
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Viper View Post


Okay, it's actually enough of this racist, stereotypical Fu Manchu peddling already. This is all the majority of people across the internet seem to know about and use to support their weak and downright intellectually insulting arguments.

By your own admission, you mention the Haunted storyline and as well Matt Fraction's run on the character. Regardless of the character motivations and the writing which will be addressed below, you should know that by this point in time the character has evolved and changed over time. It's not very difficult to see visually or to Google search and discover, yet all people can fall back on is this stereotype because they presumably do a Google search and see the first one or two Tales of Suspense covers featuring Mandarin and are then too lazy to discover anything more.

If anything, the above quote probably applies more to the Marvel character Yellow Claw, yet nobody mentions that character and instead choose to wax lyrical their long outdated prejudices about Mandarin.
http://www.comicvine.com/yellow-claw/4005-14525/

On a mindset of a subject matter that generally seems to be steeped in madness, it's time now for common sense and enlightenment to take over.



Technically, it's "Science vs. Mysticism" and "East vs. West". While you seem to think it's a weak premise, there are plenty of others who will disagree with you as the whole notion of it, to me anyway and not to you, seems very interesting and a change from many of the other corporate espionage and armor vs. armor villains in Iron Man's comic history. Also, the Mandarin himself is not strictly a magic character.

Also, you are is technically wrong in the above bold portion of the quote as well. While Mandarin wasn't prominently featured in the Michelinie run, he did appear nevertheless. He appeared in a 2 issue arc between Iron Man v1 241 & 242.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Iron_Man_Vol_1_241
http://marvel.wikia.com/Iron_Man_Vol_1_242

Here's a brief character synopsis from around this time and full synopsis of these two issues are found in the links above.





I would argue that the whole run from Iron Man v1 259-275 written by John Byrne culminating in the Dragon Seed Saga also ranks up there as does Haunted to some degree as well.



That's arguable, but then I would argue that based on his persistence in wanting to eliminate Iron Man during the early Stan Lee Tales of Suspense and early Iron Man issues as well as coming close on several occasions (within the parameters of comic story telling in as much disbelief as can be suspended in believing the hero will perish) to killing Iron Man (Stark and Rhodes on both separate occasions and together.) Also during the Byrne run, it was established during additions to Iron Man's origins that the warlord Wong-Chu who kidnapped Stark and Yinsen and set into motion the events that created Iron Man, was in fact a lackey of the Mandarin who then punished him for his failure, as detailed in Iron Man v1 267 & 268 and below.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Iron_Man_Vol_1_267
http://marvel.wikia.com/Iron_Man_Vol_1_268

Therefore, if one accepts this as cannon and part of Iron Man's history, it establishes Mandarin as being directly tied into Iron Man's origin. There's even a few panels at the end of that story where after Mandarin has turned Wong-Chu into bug with his ring and squashed him, watches Iron Man walk out of the camp he has just escaped and contemplates destroying him from the shadows with the might of his rings then and there, but for reasons even he cannot explain, refrained and details how he would come to regret that decision.



I tend to believe that is more the at the feet of the writers involved than the character itself. They're the ones doing the writing, so therefore dictate the direction of the characters. That kind of thing wouldn't be too difficult for writers to read up on and research and then for editors to maintain, but yet it at times tends to slip through the cracks. Especially given how well Mandarin was written in Haunted, it wouldn't have been hard for Fraction to follow suit going forward.
During the early 90's the finally seemed to coalesce all the past portrayals of Mandarin into one as part of his new direction in the Byrne run and then during Marvel Comics Presents in the lead-up to "Hands of the Mandarin" where thanks to the Heart of Darkness, he mentally encountered and defeated prior versions of himself through his history and in tern, the weakness and character flaws in each one, thus in theory perfecting himself for his upcoming assault on Iron Man and Force Works.







Um....No. This kind of thing is not very difficult to do in a movie and is not unlike any other instances in hundreds of films of dealing with introducing concepts and characters building off of previously established idea, and it wouldn't take over an hour to do. Assuming they decided to go this route in the movie, or any other potential future movie, how difficult would it be to have shots showing the Chitauri technology being procured directly after the events of Avengers, maybe by a smuggler or some sort of Ten Rings agent / sympathizer embedded in New York before S.H.I.E.L.D. can properly lock things down and get to work. Have that person provide the artifacts to Mandarin and have him get to work. That would probably be a matter of minutes, if that, of the start of such a film / story and any lingering details that the writers would feel needs explanation could be presented as exposition by Mandarin himself during an initial encounter with Iron Man, either as simple exposition or with flashback style shots thrown in during his brief explanation. That's how you naturally introduce this stuff while keep the story moving without having to spend an hour first detailing everything in some sort of "real time".
Sure you could just give the rings a few minutes, and they'll be a throwaway tool, just as the Chtauri themselves were. Made for some interesting fight scenes, but the don't really add much to the characterization of the villain. For example, Loki could have acquired any other army or any other powerful weapon and he would have been just as big a threat to the Avengers, and we see why that is because of the exposition provided in his interactions with them all. If you want the rings to be anything other than a Macguffin, you have to show why they are significant to the character. Like the Iron Man's armor or Thor's hammer Mjolnir.


Last edited by signifyingmnky; 05-10-2013 at 06:31 AM.
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