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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:36 PM   #351
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Hate it.

With every fiber of my being.

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Old 05-10-2013, 10:38 PM   #352
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by signifyingmnky View Post
Iron Man 2 - Rhodes (to Tony): It's me. I'm here. Deal with it. Let's move on.

Iron Man 3 - The Mandarin (to Tony): No more false faces...You wanted the Mandarin! You got him! I'm the Mandarin!

I'd said the folks behind the Iron Man films understand the fourth wall pretty well.
It's only breaking the fourth wall if they looked into the camera and said those lines to us directly.

They didn't. They were talking to Tony.

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Old 05-10-2013, 10:46 PM   #353
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

The Fourth Wall can be fractured, splintered, or broken, in myriad ways and methods outside of the Mel Brooks wink and obnoxious gag to the camera. For instance: in Blazing Saddles, the fight spills out from the western town and onto the movie studio stage.

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Old 05-10-2013, 10:51 PM   #354
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Directly breaking the 4th wall would be Ferris Bueller's Day Off. However the comments listed definitely, were directed at the audience indirectly as well as to the character, directly.

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Old 05-10-2013, 10:58 PM   #355
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Dude. You still aren't getting it. Google fourth wall if you have to. I'm sure the filmmakers understand the fourth wall just fine. As the closest they've come to breaking it is Tony narrating IM3. Which (after the credits) we find out isn't the case, because he isn't talking to us, he's talking to Bruce Banner.

Neither of those examples have anything to do with the fourth wall because (as you said) they are both talking "to Tony." As opposed to addressing the audience.
So, Rhodey's remarks could not in anyway be taken as an acknowledgement to the audience of the change in actors? Was there any other contextual need for the line?

Same goes for Mandarin. Was there a contextual reason given his dialogue with Tony for him to suddenly announce himself as the Mandarin? That couldn't be interpreted as an acknowledgement to those in the audience still in disbelief about his identity? Or to comic fans who would undoubtedly be upset that the character they've been waiting for was not quite what they expected?

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Old 05-11-2013, 12:15 AM   #356
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Any Dark Tower fans in the house? What did you think of the Mandarin reveal?

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Old 05-11-2013, 12:56 AM   #357
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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So, Rhodey's remarks could not in anyway be taken as an acknowledgement to the audience of the change in actors? Was there any other contextual need for the line?

Same goes for Mandarin. Was there a contextual reason given his dialogue with Tony for him to suddenly announce himself as the Mandarin? That couldn't be interpreted as an acknowledgement to those in the audience still in disbelief about his identity? Or to comic fans who would undoubtedly be upset that the character they've been waiting for was not quite what they expected?
Right. And Tony calling Trevor "Ringo" is an assumption that the audience knows he is referring to the famous Beatle. But the fourth wall is left intact because, while the filmmakers and writers might be addressing us through context, the character himself (Rhodes, Tony, Killian) is still not aware of our existence.

Breaking the fourth wall, so to speak, is a method for audience realization that the characters in the movie belong or (to go a step further) actually exist in our world. Look at The Office. Mockumentary film style is used to make us believe that somewhere in the world the events on screen could actually be happening. The MCU would never go about doing this because then the suspension of disbelief is lost. If we see the MCU as an extension of our universe we cease to believe in the fantastical things that happen there.

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Any Dark Tower fans in the house? What did you think of the Mandarin reveal?
I love The Dark Tower series. Still hated The Mandarin twist. To me its a more than just being misled. I wanted a badass Kingsley... thats pretty much it.

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Old 05-11-2013, 02:22 AM   #358
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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So its ok for a hero to announce their identity but not for a villain?
The examples I can think of work thematically within the contexts of the movie

BB - 'I'm Batman'
The mob boss rhetorically asks 'who are you?' and Batman answers

SM1 - 'I'm Spider-Man'
The hero is telling the audience he has completed his journey of geek to hero

IM - 'I am Iron Man'
Tony massive ego wont allow the world to believe IM is a different person.

IM3 - 'I am Mandarin'
A statement to fill in gaps the visuals and script fails to.
Very clunky indeed rather than the other examples.

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Old 05-11-2013, 02:32 AM   #359
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by signifyingmnky View Post
Iron Man 2 - Rhodes (to Tony): It's me. I'm here. Deal with it. Let's move on.

Iron Man 3 - The Mandarin (to Tony): No more false faces...You wanted the Mandarin! You got him! I'm the Mandarin!

I'd say the folks behind the Iron Man films understand the fourth wall pretty well.
Literally none of those are examples of fourth wall breaks. As others have said, Ferris Bueler is a perfect example. Another is Deadpool, he'll consistently talk directly to the reader, or draw attention to the fact that he knows he's in a comic.

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Old 05-11-2013, 02:58 AM   #360
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

There is a middle ground between breaking the fourth wall and normal acting, it's called Leaning On the Fourth Wall. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...nTheFourthWall The movie does a lot of leaning on the fourth wall, but never breaks it.

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Old 05-11-2013, 03:06 AM   #361
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I'll be honest, I didn't like how the Mandarin was done. Didn't ruin the movie, but it could be better.

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Old 05-11-2013, 04:07 AM   #362
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by signifyingmnky View Post
So, Rhodey's remarks could not in anyway be taken as an acknowledgement to the audience of the change in actors? Was there any other contextual need for the line?

Same goes for Mandarin. Was there a contextual reason given his dialogue with Tony for him to suddenly announce himself as the Mandarin? That couldn't be interpreted as an acknowledgement to those in the audience still in disbelief about his identity? Or to comic fans who would undoubtedly be upset that the character they've been waiting for was not quite what they expected?
You are exactly right. In fact Favreau acknowledged Rhody's line was a reference to the fan outrage at Terrance Howard being replaced.

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Old 05-11-2013, 04:39 AM   #363
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Yes. But its not breaking the fourth wall because he's not talking to the audience. He's talking to a character in the film. Had Rhodey turned his head to the camera and said that line directly, then yes THAT'S breaking the fourth wall.

The line is more of a and funny anecdote to the audience within the context of a legitimate piece of dialogue in the movie. Breaking the fourth wall is saying a line directly to the audience that has no bearing nor makes any sense within the context of said scene.

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Old 05-11-2013, 04:44 AM   #364
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by spider-neil View Post
IM3 - 'I am Mandarin'
A statement to fill in gaps the visuals and script fails to.
Very clunky indeed rather than the other examples.
That's your interpretation. For me, it was a statement and revelation that Tony had spent the entire film looking for the Mandarin, believing it to be a fraud when in reality, he was in front of him all along.

I have issues with the fact that he made the statement so late in the game, personally I would've preferred that he mentioned it when he had Tony captive BUT…his reveal did in fact have a point.

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Old 05-11-2013, 07:57 AM   #365
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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You are exactly right. In fact Favreau acknowledged Rhody's line was a reference to the fan outrage at Terrance Howard being replaced.
Thank you.

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Old 05-11-2013, 08:17 AM   #366
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Right. And Tony calling Trevor "Ringo" is an assumption that the audience knows he is referring to the famous Beatle. But the fourth wall is left intact because, while the filmmakers and writers might be addressing us through context, the character himself (Rhodes, Tony, Killian) is still not aware of our existence.

Breaking the fourth wall, so to speak, is a method for audience realization that the characters in the movie belong or (to go a step further) actually exist in our world. Look at The Office. Mockumentary film style is used to make us believe that somewhere in the world the events on screen could actually be happening. The MCU would never go about doing this because then the suspension of disbelief is lost. If we see the MCU as an extension of our universe we cease to believe in the fantastical things that happen there.



I love The Dark Tower series. Still hated The Mandarin twist. To me its a more than just being misled. I wanted a badass Kingsley... thats pretty much it.
The fourth wall can be broken when the audience is directly or indirectly acknowledged. Both of those quotes acknowledge the audience, or specific people in it.

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Old 05-11-2013, 10:21 AM   #367
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

What you are talking about is not breaking the fourth wall. It is a subliminal message. Breaking the fourth wall would've only been the case if Rhodey knows he is a fictional character in a movie, which he doesn't.

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Old 05-11-2013, 10:34 AM   #368
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What you are talking about is not breaking the fourth wall. It is a subliminal message. Breaking the fourth wall would've only been the case if Rhodey knows he is a fictional character in a movie, which he doesn't.
Rhodey's statement is far too direct to be a subliminal message.

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Old 05-11-2013, 10:41 AM   #369
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Liked the twist. Wouldve been disappointed if all we got was a Bin Laden clone. (A really cool Bin Laden clone to be fair) I had my vague suspicions from the beginning, and I felt rewarded when Trevor emerged from the bathroom. Kingsley nailed both aspects of the character imo, and I laughed my ass off more than once at his true persona.

The Mandarin in the comics has been changed drastically so many times, and Marvel has already gone above and beyond in the whole "staying true to the character" department, that I really have no problem whatsoever in them re-imagining a particular villain.

In my mind, these films are in their own universe, and by and large are more faithful to the characters and the stories than even the Ultimate Universe, despite being in a totally different medium. Marvel has earned the right to some artistic license going forward. At least with me.

Im a lifelong Marvel fan and I personally hope they depart even FURTHER from the details of the comics, especially when it comes to storylines and villains. I want surprises, not rehashed stories ive read a dozen times or more.

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Old 05-11-2013, 10:49 AM   #370
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Rhodey's statement is far too direct to be a subliminal message.
It's still not "breaking the fourth wall"; it's a wink and a nod, but Rhodey would've had to have been directly addressing the audience - rather than Tony - for it to qualify, as others have already pointed out.

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Old 05-11-2013, 11:15 AM   #371
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It's still not "breaking the fourth wall"; it's a wink and a nod, but Rhodey would've had to have been directly addressing the audience - rather than Tony - for it to qualify, as others have already pointed out.
I'd say it's indirectly addressing the upset fans and confused viewers of the change in actors. Tony's at a Senate hearing about whether or not the Iron Man suit is a weapon and should be handed over to the government. Of course Rhodey, who served as a sort of liaison between the military and Stark would be there. There is no reason Tony should be surprised he makes an appearance, and given that, no reason that Rhodey should have to tell him "It's me, deal with it". However, the audience has every reason to be surprised and/or upset, and that is who the line is for.

That being said, this is far too much energy expended over what was initially a joke about the Mandarin's rank among comic book villains on film, due to his ability to leave people on screen and off in disbelief over his identity.

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Old 05-11-2013, 11:36 AM   #372
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Liked the twist. Wouldve been disappointed if all we got was a Bin Laden clone. (A really cool Bin Laden clone to be fair) I had my vague suspicions from the beginning, and I felt rewarded when Trevor emerged from the bathroom. Kingsley nailed both aspects of the character imo, and I laughed my ass off more than once at his true persona.

The Mandarin in the comics has been changed drastically so many times, and Marvel has already gone above and beyond in the whole "staying true to the character" department, that I really have no problem whatsoever in them re-imagining a particular villain.

In my mind, these films are in their own universe, and by and large are more faithful to the characters and the stories than even the Ultimate Universe, despite being in a totally different medium. Marvel has earned the right to some artistic license going forward. At least with me.

Im a lifelong Marvel fan and I personally hope they depart even FURTHER from the details of the comics, especially when it comes to storylines and villains. I want surprises, not rehashed stories ive read a dozen times or more.
Preach it.

Also, everyone claiming these films break the fourth wall... seriously?
That's like saying Peter's "My back! My back!" line in Spider-Man 2 is breaking the fourth wall.
A wink at the audience is not breaking the fourth wall. Unless a character physically turns to the camera and winks at the audience.

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Old 05-11-2013, 12:02 PM   #373
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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A wink at the audience is not breaking the fourth wall. Unless a character physically turns to the camera and winks at the audience.
You mean like Superman during the end credits? It breaks the 4th wall but c'mon, it's cool as heck and I'm going to miss it when MoS doesn't do it.

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Old 05-11-2013, 12:07 PM   #374
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I'd say it's indirectly addressing the upset fans and confused viewers of the change in actors. Tony's at a Senate hearing about whether or not the Iron Man suit is a weapon and should be handed over to the government. Of course Rhodey, who served as a sort of liaison between the military and Stark would be there. There is no reason Tony should be surprised he makes an appearance, and given that, no reason that Rhodey should have to tell him "It's me, deal with it". However, the audience has every reason to be surprised and/or upset, and that is who the line is for.

That being said, this is far too much energy expended over what was initially a joke about the Mandarin's rank among comic book villains on film, due to his ability to leave people on screen and off in disbelief over his identity.
Still definitely not breaking the fourth wall. At all.

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Old 05-11-2013, 01:28 PM   #375
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

i didn't mind the twist. i would call it more of an homage to the mandarin. for all we know pierce's character could have based him on a real story or legend he researched or heard. there could still be a "Real" Mandarin out there, that we haven't seen yet.

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