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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
Hate it! 104 41.27%
Voters: 252. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:32 AM   #401
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Another humble opinion from one who had extremely limited knowledge on Iron Man comics.....so limited, I was waiting for Guy Pearce to become MODOK the whole movie, just because A.I.M. was mentioned! lol Anywho, regarding Mandarin:

I didn't like it much. I had no issue whatsoever with Mandarin being Ben Kingsley, and not Chinese. I had also been kinda-spoiled before the movie, and a friend mentioned he does not use magical rings. Again, didn't care. The previews sold me with Kingsley's performance. Then......it wasn't him. In my eyes, it was some random dude, nothing unique about him. There were dozens of people in the movie with his exact skills, he just seemed to handle them better.

The super-comic savvy peeps have already determined, the character was close enough, in multiple ways, to Mandarin's character and beliefs. But to the GA, it was like, "wat".

Again, IMHO. All that said, the movie was still pretty cool.

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:48 AM   #402
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I'm a bit likewise in that not being too familiar with mandarin the twist didn't really perturb me, however we didn't get to see "the mandarin" performance we were promised in the trailers.

His most powerful lines were seemingly cut the "ladies, gentlemen, sheep" and a few others. As well as this scene at least





I thought knigsley was quite funny as trevor but would have liked to have seen him more as the mandarin we were sold on regardless of the twist. I mean he looked so bad-ass.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

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Old 05-13-2013, 03:07 AM   #403
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
There was definitely a shortage of "fans of the actual character (Mandarin)" before this movie came out. Now all of a sudden, Mandarin apparently gains this huge outraged comic-book fanbase.....go figure.

And here's the thing: none of these overnight Fandarin bandwagoners can point to how, exactly, the comic-book character could have been portrayed authentically....because Mandarin has been altered and changed so many times over the decades that there is no one definitive look or backstory or powerset to the character. And that's pretty much what Shane Black was getting at in this movie. In fact, between Kingsley and Pearce, the "two Mandarins" pay homage to every iteration of the character from the 1960s until present. What we got was an amalgamation of all the different Mandarins, presented in a unique way that is both true to the character(s), and refreshingly new and contemporary.
I'm actually a huge fan of The Mandarin. That said, I mostly agree with you. The supposed fans of The Mandarin don't even sound like they know much about him. They harp on and on about the rings, when the rings were frankly only important to the nineties version of the character. In the nineties, he started wearing a dress, and the rings got boosted to ridiculous levels, like Magneto levels or even Silver Surfer levels.

Now personally I consider dress-wearing, Rings-of-Silver-Surferness Mandarin to be a shark-jump. It's the equivalent of making venom so powerful it turns Bane into the Hulk while also making him wear a pink ballerina outfit. Nineties Mandarin was stupid.

The Mandarin classically is a superhuman martial artist, a mad scientist, and a schemer. He's got rings but they are no more important than that strobe-light thing Prometheus uses to make people dizzy before he kung-fus them. The Mandarin is Iron Fist with a few parlor trick rings in most appearances both pre-nineties and post-nineties.

Yet to hear some people talk, you'd think nineties dress-wearing silver-surfer-in-a-can-rings Mandarin was the be-all, end all Mandarin, and counts more than the versions who came before or after.

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Old 05-13-2013, 04:18 AM   #404
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I'm actually a huge fan of The Mandarin. That said, I mostly agree with you. The supposed fans of The Mandarin don't even sound like they know much about him. They harp on and on about the rings, when the rings were frankly only important to the nineties version of the character. In the nineties, he started wearing a dress, and the rings got boosted to ridiculous levels, like Magneto levels or even Silver Surfer levels.

Now personally I consider dress-wearing, Rings-of-Silver-Surferness Mandarin to be a shark-jump. It's the equivalent of making venom so powerful it turns Bane into the Hulk while also making him wear a pink ballerina outfit. Nineties Mandarin was stupid.

The Mandarin classically is a superhuman martial artist, a mad scientist, and a schemer. He's got rings but they are no more important than that strobe-light thing Prometheus uses to make people dizzy before he kung-fus them. The Mandarin is Iron Fist with a few parlor trick rings in most appearances both pre-nineties and post-nineties.

Yet to hear some people talk, you'd think nineties dress-wearing silver-surfer-in-a-can-rings Mandarin was the be-all, end all Mandarin, and counts more than the versions who came before or after.
This is some pretty unabashed xenophobia. Do you realize in just how many cultures around the world men wear "dresses" as you so eloquently put? In the Middle East, the Far East, India, Africa, Scotland.

lol. And you've put something rather xenophobic or perhaps homophobic in every paragraph of your post. Tell me, is the "dress wearing" your primary point of concern? Because to read your post it sure sounds like it.

And as a rhetorical question (because I really dont give a **** what the answer is) If you met a man in person who was wearing a kilt, kimono, sherwani, kasaya or other ceremonial robes, would you call it a ballerina outfit to his face?

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Old 05-13-2013, 07:37 AM   #405
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

^ Try saying that to a Scotsmen. You'll get a Glasgow kiss for that.

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Old 05-13-2013, 07:42 AM   #406
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

When Kevin said IM3 would have huge implications for the MCU I thought he meant AIM...but now it also means Extremis...

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Old 05-13-2013, 10:35 AM   #407
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I'm not a huge fan of comic Mandarin but I liked where the trailers and his videos in this film were taking him. The twist is a punch to the gut and ruined what could have been a great villain. I don't care that it wasn't the super powered, Chinese baddie. I'm angry that he wasn't just a badass, Chinese-garbed, well-speaking, flawed logic terrorist he was being made out to be.

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Old 05-13-2013, 11:31 AM   #408
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin View Post
This is some pretty unabashed xenophobia.
This isn't about xenophobia or homophobia, it's about him not looking like a wizard. I got nothing against Gandalf or Lopan, but historically The Mandarin isn't in their club, and in the nineties he suddenly became one of their club for a decade and then went right back to not being a wizard. Hell, I wouldn't care if Mandarin actually turned out to be gay, just so long as he doesn't put on a wizard dress and become all about ring powers again.

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Old 05-13-2013, 05:25 PM   #409
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

How come Iron Man didn't use his chest blast to kill Aldrich at the end like he did to Savin on the plane? Is that ability specific to certain suits only?

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Old 05-13-2013, 05:41 PM   #410
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Hi,


I promised a few people that I would share my thoughts after viewing Iron Man 3 on Saturday 05/04/13, and I thought I would take a week or so to collect my thoughts before posting. Also, I figured it might be easier if I just break it down into Pro's, and Con's with some things having elaborations.


NOTE: This list and my thoughts represent how I felt about Iron Man 3, but I am in no way trying to change peoples opinions, upset other people or to suggest that my opinions are more valid then theirs. Therefore, please understand, since these are my opinions and not really "facts" I do not wish to argue or debate about this post with anyone afterwards. If others would like to discuss it feel free, but lets all try to play nice and be kind to one another.


Pro's


Humor - Like many of the Marvel movies and perhaps even better then most, Iron Man 3 found a really nice balance of action and comedy.


Action and Special Effects - Just wow, some of the scenes like Stark's home being destroyed and falling into the water and the end sequence with all of the Armor's were fantastic and stunning to watch. Just amazing!


Acting - I felt all of the actors and actresses were superb in the roles they were given. Especially RDJ, he is just such a delight to watch performing his craft.


General Story & Plot Devices - I felt the basic story was Excellent and that for me it easilly was up there with Iron Man 1 as best in the series. I love the that the Mandarin was responsible for everything going all the way back to Iron Man 1 , and that A.I.M. created the Extremis Virus . While different from the comic book origins, these two elements worked really well in driving the movie in a positive direction of story telling.


Con's


Characterization - After alot of thought I realized it wasn't the Mandarin twist itself that bothered me so much as that I never felt like Killian was the Mandarin. I believe the main villian's powers should be unique, and that he or she should be more powerful and a larger threat to the hero then the average henchmen. In Iron Man 3 I felt like instead of the Mandarin we got just another Extremis Soldier with perhaps just better control of it. I think Marvel also needs to be careful with Iron Man himself by using too much War Machine / Iron Patriot or if they include Rescue it can take away from what makes Iron Man himself seem special.


Minor Details - While I truly enjoyed the overall story there were a couple of things that didn't sit well with me besides the above characterization.

1. Stark's Mansion was destroyed, and with it I thought JARVIS and all of his Armors, and yet Tony manages to get JARVIS back online out of a garage and has it operate all of his somehow recreated armors all at once.

2. Ellen Brandt was an extremis soldier with a scar on her face, and after seeing how well extremis heals limbs I find it hard to believe she would still have a scar.




What I would have changed - I would have kept the movie mostly the same up until the twist, except when Killian is showing Pepper his brain, I would have explained that Extremis effects people differently. Almost in the same way that the Super Soldier Serum effected Cap differently from the Red Skull. Then after the twist is revealed, I would have done a series of 4 flashback sequences of Killian (between the time that Tony leaves him on the roof and present day).


The first would show him forming the 10 Rings organization as an off shoot of A.I.M., showing how this one task will effectively fund his research, get Maya Hansen to become the head of his research and developement team, and lead to Killian trying to get even with Tony, by showing a few clips of his involvement in Iron Man 1 & 2 and his enlisting of Trevor Slatery to be the face of the Mandarin with the symbolic 10 rings.


The Second Flashback would show Maya Hansen making a break through on Extremis. Then Killian taking the extremis Virus, and that it not only gives him super strength, but Genius like intelligence, and then have it continue on to show other Extremis Soldiers being effected by it differently (some healing, some maybe getting super hot and turning into almost flames and even some dying because they can't handle it).


Then the third Flashback would show Killian's continued obsession with learning everything he can about Tony Stark and Stark Industries so he can expose his weakness and destroy him, which leads to him being in New York when the Avengers battle the Chitari and him coming across a large powered control panel near a downed Leviathan. The control panel is thought activated and unlike any technology of today, but yet Killian's Extremis brain seems to understand and be able to communicate with it telekineticly, and it tells him to open the device and insert his hands and the power will be his in whatever form he desires. So, as he is doing this he has images of Trevor with his 10 Rings persona flash through his mind, and when Killian removes his hands he realizes that the Alien technology has fastened itself to his hands in the form of 10 different rings.


Then the 4th Flashback it would show Killian telekineticly learning to use the new alien 10 rings, along with his enhanced Extremis strength by showing him spar with several other Extremis soldiers and having him kicking their butts badly, further supporting the idea that he is definitely their leader and someone that none of them would want to cross.

Then returning to present day, events would unfold pretty much as shown in the movie, and at the end the Jarvis Controlled Iron Men would battle regular Extremis Soldiers and Iron Patriot / War Machine would battle Savin / Cold Blood, except this time it would be while Iron Man takes on a fully weaponized ring wearing Killian / Mandarin for the Finale (without the help of Extremis Pepper).



So in closing, while I didn't hate Iron Man 3 or it's twist I feel Marvel could have been truer to the Mandarin character and origin, while still keeping the core of the movie (which was actually very good) in tact.


Well anyways thanks for listening.


Surfer

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Old 05-13-2013, 06:21 PM   #411
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Surfer View Post
Characterization - After alot of thought I realized it wasn't the Mandarin twist itself that bothered me so much as that I never felt like Killian was the Mandarin. I believe the main villian's powers should be unique, and that he or she should be more powerful and a larger threat to the hero then the average henchmen. In Iron Man 3 I felt like instead of the Mandarin we got just another Extremis Soldier with perhaps just better control of it. I think Marvel also needs to be careful with Iron Man himself by using too much War Machine / Iron Patriot or if they include Rescue it can take away from what makes Iron Man himself seem special.
I feel the same way. Even with his announcing of who he's "supposed" to be, he just didn't seem close enough to The Mandarin to really make that connection IMO, although numerous posters in here have tried to convince otherwise. I also agree that the IM suit itself and it's numerous inhabitants & variations with the villains in this trilogy does water the experience down a bit, even though I do like how they show that Tony himself has enough ingenuity and heroics.

Quote:
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What I would have changed - I would have kept the movie mostly the same up until the twist, except when Killian is showing Pepper his brain, I would have explained that Extremis effects people differently. Almost in the same way that the Super Soldier Serum effected Cap differently from the Red Skull. Then after the twist is revealed, I would have done a series of 4 flashback sequences of Killian (between the time that Tony leaves him on the roof and present day).


The first would show him forming the 10 Rings organization as an off shoot of A.I.M., showing how this one task will effectively fund his research, get Maya Hansen to become the head of his research and developement team, and lead to Killian trying to get even with Tony, by showing a few clips of his involvement in Iron Man 1 & 2 and his enlisting of Trevor Slatery to be the face of the Mandarin with the symbolic 10 rings.


The Second Flashback would show Maya Hansen making a break through on Extremis. Then Killian taking the extremis Virus, and that it not only gives him super strength, but Genius like intelligence, and then have it continue on to show other Extremis Soldiers being effected by it differently (some healing, some maybe getting super hot and turning into almost flames and even some dying because they can't handle it).


Then the third Flashback would show Killian's continued obsession with learning everything he can about Tony Stark and Stark Industries so he can expose his weakness and destroy him, which leads to him being in New York when the Avengers battle the Chitari and him coming across a large powered control panel near a downed Leviathan. The control panel is thought activated and unlike any technology of today, but yet Killian's Extremis brain seems to understand and be able to communicate with it telekineticly, and it tells him to open the device and insert his hands and the power will be his in whatever form he desires. So, as he is doing this he has images of Trevor with his 10 Rings persona flash through his mind, and when Killian removes his hands he realizes that the Alien technology has fastened itself to his hands in the form of 10 different rings.


Then the 4th Flashback it would show Killian telekineticly learning to use the new alien 10 rings, along with his enhanced Extremis strength by showing him spar with several other Extremis soldiers and having him kicking their butts badly, further supporting the idea that he is definitely their leader and someone that none of them would want to cross.

Then returning to present day, events would unfold pretty much as shown in the movie, and at the end the Jarvis Controlled Iron Men would battle regular Extremis Soldiers and Iron Patriot / War Machine would battle Savin / Cold Blood, except this time it would be while Iron Man takes on a fully weaponized ring wearing Killian / Mandarin for the Finale (without the help of Extremis Pepper).
Certainly sounds better than what we wound up getting

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Old 05-13-2013, 08:15 PM   #412
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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How come Iron Man didn't use his chest blast to kill Aldrich at the end like he did to Savin on the plane? Is that ability specific to certain suits only?
the chest beam is a one-off; like his laser attack at the end of the second movie. he ran the risk of temporariliy depeleting all of his stored power.

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Old 05-14-2013, 04:12 AM   #413
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I just saw the film for the first time and even after knowing of the twist, I felt like I was robbed of a potentially better experience. His Mandarin (pre-twist) was easily one of the most menacing and scary villains within the entire MCU as far as I've seen.

And it's ironic that given the film was about Tony's demons, Kingsly's Mandarin would have been the best representation of the BIGGEST demon in human form within Tony's Life.

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Old 05-14-2013, 07:01 AM   #414
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I just saw the film for the first time and even after knowing of the twist, I felt like I was robbed of a potentially better experience. His Mandarin (pre-twist) was easily one of the most menacing and scary villains within the entire MCU as far as I've seen.

And it's ironic that given the film was about Tony's demons, Kingsly's Mandarin would have been the best representation of the BIGGEST demon in human form within Tony's Life.
Also just saw the film-They really missed an oppurtunity by not having Kingsleys Mandarin be real.I mean a big oppurtunity.I didnt care about the rings as i am not a fan of the comic version

Wasnt a fan of the fact that Killian Mandarin was no different from any other extremis Soldier-I kept waiting for something that wld put him above the pack but it was all for naught

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Old 05-14-2013, 07:23 AM   #415
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

LokiD the liar is back as TRM :/

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Old 05-14-2013, 07:25 AM   #416
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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the chest beam is a one-off; like his laser attack at the end of the second movie. he ran the risk of temporariliy depeleting all of his stored power.
that...doesn't seem true at all...more like it's just plot stupidity that he doesn't just use it all the time

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Old 05-14-2013, 07:29 AM   #417
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

As for how Id have done Mandarin,its quite simple-

1. Kingsley Mandarin wld have been the real Mandarin.
2. Kingsley Mandarin would have been a super-soldier who ingested Extremis-thus making him a SUPER-Extremis soldier.

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Old 05-14-2013, 07:31 AM   #418
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Also just saw the film-They really missed an oppurtunity by not having Kingsleys Mandarin be real.I mean a big oppurtunity.I didnt care about the rings as i am not a fan of the comic version

Wasnt a fan of the fact that Killian Mandarin was no different from any other extremis Soldier-I kept waiting for something that wld put him above the pack but it was all for naught
Agreed and plus it kind of makes it harder to watch the first half for repeated viewings since we all know now that whatever threat and imposing fear Kingsly's mandarin presented was an absolute farce.

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that...doesn't seem true at all...more like it's just plot stupidity that he doesn't just use it all the time
Yeah, the fact that they didn't really give an good explanation of what the limits were for an person infected with Extremis, let alone on whether there was an effective way on taking them down really didn't help things since every moment when a soldier was taken down in some form felt conventional.

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Old 05-14-2013, 09:22 AM   #419
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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As for how Id have done Mandarin,its quite simple-

1. Kingsley Mandarin wld have been the real Mandarin.
2. Kingsley Mandarin would have been a super-soldier who ingested Extremis-thus making him a SUPER-Extremis soldier.

Why, and how, would Kingsley --- either as Trevor the Decoy or Mandarin the Magnificent --- get hold of the super-soldier serum? Never have understood why so many posters here in different threads keep suggesting that So-and-So gets a version of the Serum. Cheapens the hell out of Captain America.

And incidentally, making Kingsley into a "badass" Mandarin defeats the whole purpose of the thematic element, which is that we create our own demons and boogeymen for our own purposes, and more often than not, these "villains" turn out to have no substance behind them at all.

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Old 05-14-2013, 10:28 AM   #420
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Did them having it in TIH cheapen Cap?

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Old 05-14-2013, 12:06 PM   #421
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Did them having it in TIH cheapen Cap?
Nope, because it didn't work. Banner's attempt at it misfired and turned him into the Hulk, and Blonsky's attempt turned him into Abomination. Schmidt's turned him into Red Skull. So far, Cap is the only character in the MCU to undergo a *successful* Super-Soldier Serum injection, and that's the way God and Stan Lee intended it.

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Old 05-14-2013, 01:00 PM   #422
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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As for how Id have done Mandarin,its quite simple-


1. Kingsley Mandarin wld have been the real Mandarin.

2. Kingsley Mandarin would have been a super-soldier who ingested Extremis-
thus making him a SUPER-Extremis soldier.

That could have been awesome, but where would the Super Soldier serum have come from that would have allowed Kingsley's Mandarin to become this SUPER-Extremis soldier versus just the standard Extremis Soldier? Also, while a cool idea my only concern would be that I wouldn't want it to seem like every Marvel character out there has the Super Soldier Serum as it kind of takes away from Cap being special. As it stands currently there are already 3 people (Captain America, Red Skull and Abominatation).


Personally, I liked the idea of the twist and I thought it was clever, but I just wish they could have come up with a way to better honor the embodiment of the Mandarin character then what we got.


To me I see the embodiment of a character as breaking down into 4 parts and this holds true to some degree even in real life, although it may not be equal parts, but for the purpose of this post we will consider all 4 equal.


Look - 25% - It is the first sign of somebody being who they are, I mean in life we cut our hair, change our clothes, but there are certain facial features that will always identify us to others. Now with comics facial detail at that level of identifying characters is very difficult. Don't get me wrong they try with different color hair, different lengths of hair, different style facial hair, different shaped faces, but there is only so much they can do to identify someone's face when they have thousands of characters. Therefore, in the comics the costumes and or clothing play an essential role of identifying characters as being who they say they are. This is not to suggest that artists don't mix it up and draw different renditions of a character, because they do, but readers looking at this new version of the character for the first time might take some getting use to it to accept it.


Attributes - 25% - What you can do in life helps define you. If you are able to type 100 words a minute, and then all of a sudden stopped being able to do so people wouldn't necessarilly question who you are if you looked like yourself, but if you stopped being able to do everything you normally are able to do some people might start looking at you oddly or wondering if you are okay, because you don't seem like yourself. As with the look category comics accentuate characters attributes and break them down into a series of skills and powers to define them. If a character in the comic does not possess the same skills or powers you are use to seeing them with, then you might also be left feeling like they are not themselves.


History - 25% - A person's actions, choices and what they have done or gone through in the past reflects greatly on who they are as an individual and it is generally these experiences we use as a basis for making decisions moving forward. For example with Spiderman you have the whole "with Great Strength comes great responsibility" line, it's a moment in this characters life that changes everything for him and it all of a sudden becomes clear to him the hero he needs to be.


Psyche - 25% - I see this as being a series of qualities and traits that one possesses (in part by experiences) and it is generally a reflection of who they truly are deep down inside as a person, and it is often shown through the form of their personality, but not always as one can act the part, which actually says as much about who they are as anything. While this may be the truest form of a person or character it is also the most difficult to show, because people are layered like an onion and complicated, so it can be hard getting to the core of what makes someone tick. Also, it is the characters Psyche and History that will generally decide the motive or direction of the person or character. A great example in the comics would be Loki, he always has an angle and he just loves making mischief plain and simple. His character just lives for it.


So that is how I see the embodiment of a person or character. Now with that said this is how I would rate Iron Man 3's interpretation of the Mandarin (2 versions) out of a possible 25% in each category.


Trevor Slattery as Mandarin


Look - 20 out of 25 - I am giving him this because I felt they did a very good job of translating his look from the comics while trying to avoid racial overtones. However, there is part of me that would have still prefered the more comic accurate interpretation of his look, but of course I say this while meaning to offend no one.


Attributes - 0 out of 25 - Didn't have any.


History - 0 out of 25 - There was none.


Psyche - 0 out of 25 - No motives here, except for drinking and women.


Total score - 20 out of a possible 100


NOTE: This version would have been dramatically raised in the history and psyche area if they didn't put in the twist, but they did so.....



Killian as Mandarin

Look - 5 out of a possible 100 - I am giving him this because of the dragon tattoo and the comic picture that shows him shirtless and wearing pants was similar to the movie.


Attributes - 5 out of a possible 100 - I am giving him this because he did have powers in the movie, although I didn't feel they were remotely similar to his powers in the comics.


History - 15 out of a possible 100 - I am giving him this because despite the history being a lot different from the comics, I did like the fact that they suggested he was responsible for everything that happened back in Iron Man 1 and 2.


Psyche - 20 out of a possible 100 - I am giving him this because I thought his personality was great, highly intellectual and does lots of strategizing to take out his targets. I would have given him a 25%, but I felt like he spent to much time worrying about his appearance.


Total Score - 45 out of a possible 100



So far with the exception of the Mandarin I would rate all of the other Marvel Cinematic Universe Heroes and main Villians with total scores of somewhere between 70 and 90. I realize much of this is interpretation on my part, but still I feel I need to say, in my opinion this was not a very good start for Phase 2 (at least in terms of translating a villian to the big screen).


To me the movie was excellent in many ways, but the villian use was disastourous. I apologize to those of you listening to me, who liked what Marvel did with the character, I am really still just venting.



and I'm done! Lol


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Old 05-14-2013, 01:55 PM   #423
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Nope, because it didn't work. Banner's attempt at it misfired and turned him into the Hulk, and Blonsky's attempt turned him into Abomination. Schmidt's turned him into Red Skull. So far, Cap is the only character in the MCU to undergo a *successful* Super-Soldier Serum injection, and that's the way God and Stan Lee intended it.
I don't think Banner ever took the Super Soldier Serum directly like Blonsky or Red Skull, but I believe he was instead using the formula as a basis for his work with Gama Radiation, which would explain in part why the Abomination and Hulk turned out differently.

At least that is how I understood it.

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Old 05-14-2013, 03:26 PM   #424
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Killian wasn’t just “upset” at Stark over some minor perceived offense. Killian THANKS STARK and repeatedly tries to get Stark to team up with him — he doesn’t hold a grudge, really, and only tried to kill Stark after Stark directly threatened to attack. But even then, he later keeps Stark alive and offers him a role in helping AGAIN. The importance of Stark dissing Killian in the past wasn’t that it made Killian hate him, that’s just fans totally misunderstanding the point of the scene and thinking it’s always got to be about the villain hating the hero for some simplistic reason. When Stark left Killian alone on that roof, the point is that Killian felt worthless and almost killed himself out of a sense of realization that his death wouldn’t even matter to anybody because nobody even really knew he was alive — but then he had an epiphany that this actually made him a mirror of Stark, an opposite side of the coin, with Stark being so public everybody knew him and targeted him while Killian realized that with anonymity he could accomplish anything so long as he used his anonymity to his advantage the way Stark conversely used his stardom to his advantage. Killian wanted power, he wanted to amass power without ever drawing attention to himself, THAT was his motivation, NOT “I’m gonna get back at Tony Stark for being mean to me once.”

The twist doesn’t fly in the face of Iron Man at all. The Ten Rings existed for many years, Killian has been building it up to create a new global terrorist threat to help him get more government money, more Extremis soldiers, etc. He was creating a supervillain version of Al Qaeda, basically, one that would require super-solutions like Extremis. The goal was to get more and more money to fund more and more research, and to create more and more Extremis soldiers who were actually loyal to HIM, Killian. And he’d have put a new president in office, giving Killian control over the White House. He’d literally control both sides of the global war on terror’s second stage of super-powered villains and soldiers. But he’d always be behind the scenes, controlling everything as the unseen hand of fate while the government and terrorists and other threats etc went about their business as the public face of things.

Killian is the Mandarin. The movie basically just changed him from being Chinese to being a white guy. And the reason for changing him is brilliant — in the comics, do you know how the Mandarin was originally created? He was created during the Cold War, after the Korean War and during the start of the Vietnamese conflict when the U.S. became gripped with fear that Chinese Communism was going to spread across Asia and take over the world. The paranoia was intense. Mandarin was created as a representation of the country’s fear of the Chinese and of Asian Communism in general, he was a Cold War stereotype basically. So, what did the film do? Had a white man create a fictional foreign stereotype villain to represent the country’s current biggest fears — foreign terrorists.

The Mandarin in the comics was literally created by white men as a representation of people’s fear of a foreign “menace,” and the Mandarin in the movie was created by a white man as a representation of people’s fear of a foreign “menace!” The *actual* Mandarin is also in the film, mind you — Killian is a man who was brilliant but unappreciated and who didn’t have the money or power to achieve his goals and was angry because of it, but who obtains advanced technology and grows in power, a man who becomes strong and superhuman in his abilities, a man obsessed with obtaining power to control the world and obsessed with obtaining technology to achieve his goals. At one point in the comics, the Mandarin carries out some of the same plot as in the film — using Maya to help him make an army of Extremis soliders, while simultaneously building a terrorist army around the world.

Imagine something for a moment — imagine if in the movie they’d cast a Chinese actor to play Killian, and it was revealed that he merely created the decoy Mandarin etc. With all of the other similarities to the character in the comics, would fans still be angry? Or would they more easily see that this is basically the same thing that “Batman Begins” did with Ra’s, having a smaller character from the comics (Ducard) turn out to be the REAL Ra’s al Ghul, and the foreign guy was just a decoy. Meanwhile, Ra’s was changed from an eco-terrorist sort of dude to a ninja-army vigilante. Ra’s was no longer immortal, lacking one of his most powerful and defining elements from the comics (the Lazaras pits), and he was turned into the man who trained Batman. Yet the Ra’s in the film was awesome and ultimately faithful to the core concept of the character, and most fans understand why the changes were made and totally accept it.

Well, the same thing was done with the Mandarin, but fans are mistakenly thinking the Mandarin didn’t exist and the Ten Rings organization wasn’t “real.” But Mandarin WAS in the film, and the organization WAS real, it just had a decoy to distract everyone from the REAL Mandarin, who had many elements from the comics. But he couldn’t be portrayed exactly the same, because that character was problematic for various reasons including how he was first created. So instead, the film said, “Well let’s literally create him the same way — let’s make a guy who is an INTENTIONAL stereotype, created by the REAL Mandarin as a ‘menace’ who looks and sounds like what we EXPECT the villain to be, as a distraction from the real threat!” And it worked, and it’s one of the most original and surprising twists on a villain in comic book films, although we SHOULD have realized it since it’s been done before — why didn’t we realize it this time, though? Because it fed into our expectations of fears and menace, that’s why. The film KNEW we’d assume he was the real Mandarin, because he looked and sounded like the stereotyped cliche of foreign terrorist menaces that we have in our minds. The film made us come face to face with those biases and expectations, and showed how a smart enemy could subvert our expectations and use us without us realizing it until it’s too late.

Tell me, how many superhero movies try that hard to make a story and villain so relevant to our modern world and to offer us a commentary on how villains can subvert our expectations to defeat us? How many superhero villains show that a really smart supervillain might be the one pulling the strings from behind the scenes without us every realizing it, and that if we let our biases and narrow expectations cloud our vision we won’t see the threat until it’s too late — like what happened to Tony in the film! This isn’t a film that disrespects or insults fans, it’s a film that has higher expectations for the characters and the fans, and expected everyone to see the narrative themes and understand them and think about them deeply. Watch the film again, think about this stuff while you watch it, and see if you don’t come out with an “ah ha! now I see the point!” moment, while also seeing a lot more clearly how Mandarin is really in the movie after all, and that they just made a brilliant alteration to help more literally represent the character’s comic book origins as a stereotyped villain who represented the “fear of the day.” The second time I saw the movie, I caught even more references and little nuances that fueled the whole concept, it’s great! And remember those great Chinese dragon tattoos on Killian’s chest, haha!

I hope this clears some of this up and you are able to think about it some more and come to at least appreciate what the film tried to do, even if you still don’t personally like it as much as if they’d just done a straight-up adaptation of the character as-is from the comics.

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Old 05-14-2013, 03:29 PM   #425
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Killian wasn’t just “upset” at Stark over some minor perceived offense. Killian THANKS STARK and repeatedly tries to get Stark to team up with him — he doesn’t hold a grudge, really, and only tried to kill Stark after Stark directly threatened to attack. But even then, he later keeps Stark alive and offers him a role in helping AGAIN. The importance of Stark dissing Killian in the past wasn’t that it made Killian hate him, that’s just fans totally misunderstanding the point of the scene and thinking it’s always got to be about the villain hating the hero for some simplistic reason. When Stark left Killian alone on that roof, the point is that Killian felt worthless and almost killed himself out of a sense of realization that his death wouldn’t even matter to anybody because nobody even really knew he was alive — but then he had an epiphany that this actually made him a mirror of Stark, an opposite side of the coin, with Stark being so public everybody knew him and targeted him while Killian realized that with anonymity he could accomplish anything so long as he used his anonymity to his advantage the way Stark conversely used his stardom to his advantage. Killian wanted power, he wanted to amass power without ever drawing attention to himself, THAT was his motivation, NOT “I’m gonna get back at Tony Stark for being mean to me once.”

The twist doesn’t fly in the face of Iron Man at all. The Ten Rings existed for many years, Killian has been building it up to create a new global terrorist threat to help him get more government money, more Extremis soldiers, etc. He was creating a supervillain version of Al Qaeda, basically, one that would require super-solutions like Extremis. The goal was to get more and more money to fund more and more research, and to create more and more Extremis soldiers who were actually loyal to HIM, Killian. And he’d have put a new president in office, giving Killian control over the White House. He’d literally control both sides of the global war on terror’s second stage of super-powered villains and soldiers. But he’d always be behind the scenes, controlling everything as the unseen hand of fate while the government and terrorists and other threats etc went about their business as the public face of things.

Killian is the Mandarin. The movie basically just changed him from being Chinese to being a white guy. And the reason for changing him is brilliant — in the comics, do you know how the Mandarin was originally created? He was created during the Cold War, after the Korean War and during the start of the Vietnamese conflict when the U.S. became gripped with fear that Chinese Communism was going to spread across Asia and take over the world. The paranoia was intense. Mandarin was created as a representation of the country’s fear of the Chinese and of Asian Communism in general, he was a Cold War stereotype basically. So, what did the film do? Had a white man create a fictional foreign stereotype villain to represent the country’s current biggest fears — foreign terrorists.

The Mandarin in the comics was literally created by white men as a representation of people’s fear of a foreign “menace,” and the Mandarin in the movie was created by a white man as a representation of people’s fear of a foreign “menace!” The *actual* Mandarin is also in the film, mind you — Killian is a man who was brilliant but unappreciated and who didn’t have the money or power to achieve his goals and was angry because of it, but who obtains advanced technology and grows in power, a man who becomes strong and superhuman in his abilities, a man obsessed with obtaining power to control the world and obsessed with obtaining technology to achieve his goals. At one point in the comics, the Mandarin carries out some of the same plot as in the film — using Maya to help him make an army of Extremis soliders, while simultaneously building a terrorist army around the world.

Imagine something for a moment — imagine if in the movie they’d cast a Chinese actor to play Killian, and it was revealed that he merely created the decoy Mandarin etc. With all of the other similarities to the character in the comics, would fans still be angry? Or would they more easily see that this is basically the same thing that “Batman Begins” did with Ra’s, having a smaller character from the comics (Ducard) turn out to be the REAL Ra’s al Ghul, and the foreign guy was just a decoy. Meanwhile, Ra’s was changed from an eco-terrorist sort of dude to a ninja-army vigilante. Ra’s was no longer immortal, lacking one of his most powerful and defining elements from the comics (the Lazaras pits), and he was turned into the man who trained Batman. Yet the Ra’s in the film was awesome and ultimately faithful to the core concept of the character, and most fans understand why the changes were made and totally accept it.

Well, the same thing was done with the Mandarin, but fans are mistakenly thinking the Mandarin didn’t exist and the Ten Rings organization wasn’t “real.” But Mandarin WAS in the film, and the organization WAS real, it just had a decoy to distract everyone from the REAL Mandarin, who had many elements from the comics. But he couldn’t be portrayed exactly the same, because that character was problematic for various reasons including how he was first created. So instead, the film said, “Well let’s literally create him the same way — let’s make a guy who is an INTENTIONAL stereotype, created by the REAL Mandarin as a ‘menace’ who looks and sounds like what we EXPECT the villain to be, as a distraction from the real threat!” And it worked, and it’s one of the most original and surprising twists on a villain in comic book films, although we SHOULD have realized it since it’s been done before — why didn’t we realize it this time, though? Because it fed into our expectations of fears and menace, that’s why. The film KNEW we’d assume he was the real Mandarin, because he looked and sounded like the stereotyped cliche of foreign terrorist menaces that we have in our minds. The film made us come face to face with those biases and expectations, and showed how a smart enemy could subvert our expectations and use us without us realizing it until it’s too late.

Tell me, how many superhero movies try that hard to make a story and villain so relevant to our modern world and to offer us a commentary on how villains can subvert our expectations to defeat us? How many superhero villains show that a really smart supervillain might be the one pulling the strings from behind the scenes without us every realizing it, and that if we let our biases and narrow expectations cloud our vision we won’t see the threat until it’s too late — like what happened to Tony in the film! This isn’t a film that disrespects or insults fans, it’s a film that has higher expectations for the characters and the fans, and expected everyone to see the narrative themes and understand them and think about them deeply. Watch the film again, think about this stuff while you watch it, and see if you don’t come out with an “ah ha! now I see the point!” moment, while also seeing a lot more clearly how Mandarin is really in the movie after all, and that they just made a brilliant alteration to help more literally represent the character’s comic book origins as a stereotyped villain who represented the “fear of the day.” The second time I saw the movie, I caught even more references and little nuances that fueled the whole concept, it’s great! And remember those great Chinese dragon tattoos on Killian’s chest, haha!

I hope this clears some of this up and you are able to think about it some more and come to at least appreciate what the film tried to do, even if you still don’t personally like it as much as if they’d just done a straight-up adaptation of the character as-is from the comics.
This.

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