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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:07 PM   #576
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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But thats exactly my point. Instead of using a stereotypical archetype and using something we've seen tons of times before, they turned it into something that managed to surprise people. Im glad they went with an original idea for the character, it made the movie more unpredictable.
Change for the sake of it doesn't have to be a good idea. Nor has unpredictability. Nor has Mandarin to be a stereotype.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:30 PM   #577
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Change for the sake of it doesn't have to be a good idea. Nor has unpredictability. Nor has Mandarin to be a stereotype.
It wasn't "change for change's sake." The whole twist was absolutely integral to the theme of the story. The movie is about how we create illusory villains to justify our own ill-guided actions, and how heroes are *not* defined by the people they fight, but by the good deeds that they do. I challenge you to create another way of illustrating that theme that doesn't involve decoys, misdirection, political satire and genre deconstruction.

Shane Black presented those themes in an absolutely perfect method, and managed to skewer/satirize "real world" and comic book villains at the same time he pays homage to an amalgamation of comic-book Mandarin over multiple decades.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:32 PM   #578
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It wasn't "change for change's sake." The whole twist was absolutely integral to the theme of the story. The movie is about how we create illusory villains to justify our own ill-guided actions, and how heroes are *not* defined by the people they fight, but by the good deeds that they do. I challenge you to create another way of illustrating that theme that doesn't involve decoys, misdirection, political satire and genre deconstruction.

Shane Black presented those themes in an absolutely perfect method, and managed to skewer/satirize "real world" and comic book villains at the same time he pays homage to an amalgamation of comic-book Mandarin over multiple decades.
I'm totally okay with the direction of the story. Even the twist, go figure.

But if you're doing that you don't put a good and known character to shame in the process.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:37 PM   #579
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I'm totally okay with the direction of the story. Even the twist, go figure.

But if you're doing that you don't put a good and known character to shame in the process.
How is the portrayal of Mandarin (both classic stereotype in Kingsley, and modern incarnations in Killian) shameful to the character? Again: it's an amalgamation of many different versions of Mandarin. Mandarin himself doesn't have any one set "look" or persona over the years.....he's been retconned so many times that each new version is almost unrecognizable from the previous. They even satirized that in a one-off several years ago that featured Mandarin forcing a videographer to film his life story, and he told all those many different versions of his backstory that Marvel has tried to paint him with over the decades. It was all smoke and mirrors ---- just like in *this* movie.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:39 PM   #580
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How is the portrayal of Mandarin (both classic stereotype in Kingsley, and modern incarnations in Killian) shameful to the character? Again: it's an amalgamation of many different versions of Mandarin. Mandarin himself doesn't have any one set "look" or persona over the years.....he's been retconned so many times that each new version is almost unrecognizable from the previous. They even satirized that in a one-off several years ago that featured Mandarin forcing a videographer to film his life story, and he told all those many different versions of his backstory that Marvel has tried to paint him with over the decades. It was all smoke and mirrors ---- just like in *this* movie.
The character doesn't exist basically, it's just a hoax and excuse for some poor comedy. That's disrespectful enough.

Funnily enough, when the character is treated as "real" it's intimidating and far from being a stereotype as some have been trying to make believe he could only possibly be.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:46 PM   #581
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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The character doesn't exist basically, it's just a hoax and excuse for some poor comedy. That's disrespectful enough.

Funnily enough, when the character is treated as "real" it's intimidating and far from being a stereotype as some have been trying to make believe he could only possibly be.
The Mandarin isn't a nonexistent hoax. The Mandarin is Aldrich Killian. That's made clear in the movie, and Shane Black and Kevin Feige have specifically confirmed this in interviews after the movie's release. We're all still debating on how far back Killian's involvement with Ten Rings actually goes, but he is *definitely* The Mandarin; Trevor Slattery isn't.

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Old 05-28-2013, 01:19 AM   #582
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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The Mandarin isn't a nonexistent hoax. The Mandarin is Aldrich Killian. That's made clear in the movie, and Shane Black and Kevin Feige have specifically confirmed this in interviews after the movie's release. We're all still debating on how far back Killian's involvement with Ten Rings actually goes, but he is *definitely* The Mandarin; Trevor Slattery isn't.
Exactly. I think The Mandarin twist was genius. He existed through Killian. I've never seen anything like that

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:46 AM   #583
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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When Kinglsey started his comedy routine I assumed that was the case. Partially because I never thought they were going to go the "Mandarin never existed" way. It was only illogical.
They didn't go that way. They went the way where Killian was the Mandarin all along but he had a decoy that played on everyone's expectations to make his life easier.

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Old 05-28-2013, 05:13 AM   #584
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
It wasn't "change for change's sake." The whole twist was absolutely integral to the theme of the story. The movie is about how we create illusory villains to justify our own ill-guided actions, and how heroes are *not* defined by the people they fight, but by the good deeds that they do. I challenge you to create another way of illustrating that theme that doesn't involve decoys, misdirection, political satire and genre deconstruction.

Shane Black presented those themes in an absolutely perfect method, and managed to skewer/satirize "real world" and comic book villains at the same time he pays homage to an amalgamation of comic-book Mandarin over multiple decades.
Absolutely. Ben Kingsley's "Fake Mandarin" was all about subversion of the whole "dreaded boogie man" concept, orchestrated by Killian, and by his design, played up in the media. What made the 'Mandarin twist' genius was that it was a subversion of two groups' expectations: the characters in the movie AND the audience of the movie itself.

There is one thing I find hilarious in all of this, though. Consider the following thought exercise: Assume Killian's part was played by, say, Ken Watanabe or Chow Yun-Fat instead of Guy Pearce. I'm thinking the 'Mandarin loyalists' wouldn't have registered a single complaint. They just want their Asian-dude Mandarin, dammit.

Then again, maybe an even more hardcore faction would've then sprung up and demanded magic rings, fu manchus, Genghis Khan lineage and all the rest of that zaniness.


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Old 05-28-2013, 05:43 AM   #585
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Absolutely. Ben Kingsley's "Fake Mandarin" was all about subversion of the whole "dreaded boogie man" concept, orchestrated by Killian, and by his design, played up in the media. What made the 'Mandarin twist' genius was that it was a subversion of two groups' expectations: the characters in the movie AND the audience of the movie itself.

There is one thing I find hilarious in all of this, though. Consider the following thought exercise: Assume Killian's part was played by, say, Ken Watanabe or Chow Yun-Fat instead of Guy Pearce. I'm thinking the 'Mandarin loyalists' wouldn't have registered a single complaint. They just want their Asian-dude Mandarin, dammit.

Then again, maybe an even more hardcore faction would've then sprung up and demanded magic rings, fu manchus, Genghis Khan lineage and all the rest of that zaniness.
Well now, doesn't this post just shriek insulting ignorance. Ben Kingsley is not asian. Nor did he play an asian character. In fact, he played an american. And I, and others, liked that. So, I don't know what you're talking about. Although the rings definitely would've been cooler and more threatening than heating powers.

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Old 05-28-2013, 06:59 AM   #586
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Someone named Krishna Pandit Bhanji isn't Asian? Not even a little?

Also, Kingsley didn't play an American. He played a British actor who was, in the context of the movie, playing a (possible) American.

But all of that, Ben Kingsley's ethnicity included, is irrelevant to my thought experiment. My point is that if an Asian person were playing Killian, and later revealed himself to be the Mandarin, EXACTLY as he did in the movie, I postulate that most of the people who are currently crying that they felt betrayed by the big "Mandarin twist" would be quite appeased. Ergo, BS called.

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:17 AM   #587
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The Mandarin isn't a nonexistent hoax. The Mandarin is Aldrich Killian. That's made clear in the movie, and Shane Black and Kevin Feige have specifically confirmed this in interviews after the movie's release. We're all still debating on how far back Killian's involvement with Ten Rings actually goes, but he is *definitely* The Mandarin; Trevor Slattery isn't.
That's what he said. The character presented as the Mandarin in the movie doesn't exist. Instead we are told that a different individual bares the name "Mandarin" and then instructed to disregard everything that we liked, enjoyed and invested in the character and that we then must accept that the greedy butthurt loser Aldrich Killian is the one who bares the "Mandarin" title, not the gritty interesting badass terrorist with a dark and twisted morality who fights for a purpose. Nope. Just evil moneygrubbing guy. Because that's not a boring and lazy stereotype at all, right? The twist was NOTHING like Ras either. BB didn't spend the whole movie telling me that Ken Wantabe wanted to destroy Gotham only to tell me that Liam Neeson is the villain and to ignore all that "true justice" talk because he just wants to take all their money. Also it wasn't treated as a joke, didn't halt and/or drain the tension of the movie, and it progressed the film and the characters relationship nicely into the films dramatic conclusion.

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:31 AM   #588
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Well now, doesn't this post just shriek insulting ignorance. Ben Kingsley is not asian. Nor did he play an asian character. In fact, he played an american. And I, and others, liked that. So, I don't know what you're talking about. Although the rings definitely would've been cooler and more threatening than heating powers.
Kingsley is half Asian...

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:42 AM   #589
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Someone named Krishna Pandit Bhanji isn't Asian? Not even a little?
Is that Ben Kingsley's real name? I know very little about him personally. Either way, no. That name actually sounds indian to me.
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Also, Kingsley didn't play an American. He played a British actor who was, in the context of the movie, playing a (possible) American.
But the character he played that people liked and wanted and are disliking that he really wasn't was american, making your witchhunt unwarranted. Take your show somewhere else. Or I will report you for the rudeness.
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But all of that, Ben Kingsley's ethnicity included, is irrelevant to my thought experiment. My point is that if an Asian person were playing Killian, and later revealed himself to be the Mandarin, EXACTLY as he did in the movie, I postulate that most of the people who are currently crying that they felt betrayed by the big "Mandarin twist" would be quite appeased. Ergo, BS called.
No. They wouldn't. It's still the same lame character.

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Old 05-28-2013, 07:45 AM   #590
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Kingsley is half Asian...
Really? Interesting. I honestly never would've guessed. Mother or Father's side?

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Old 05-28-2013, 08:01 AM   #591
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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But the character he played that people liked and wanted and are disliking that he really wasn't was american, making your witchhunt unwarranted. Take your show somewhere else. Or I will report you for the rudeness.
He played a caricature. I, like most others, went into the movie liking said caricature. However, after the reveal, I, unlike some others, understood the absurdity of the caricature and understood that we were subverted into thinking that some hokey iconography was a proxy for menace.

My qualm is that instead of appreciating or even understanding the contextual intelligence embedded in this construct, there seems to be a vocal minority married to the comic-accurate representation of Mandarin, which was absurd and racist to start with.

To address the 'rudeness' part... was I unfriendly/confrontational in my post? Possibly. However, no where did I levy anything resembling a personal attack. Ironically, that's exactly what you did when you called me out for being 'ignorant'.


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Old 05-28-2013, 08:20 AM   #592
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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That's what he said. The character presented as the Mandarin in the movie doesn't exist. Instead we are told that a different individual bares the name "Mandarin" and then instructed to disregard everything that we liked, enjoyed and invested in the character and that we then must accept that the greedy butthurt loser Aldrich Killian is the one who bares the "Mandarin" title, not the gritty interesting badass terrorist with a dark and twisted morality who fights for a purpose. Nope. Just evil moneygrubbing guy. Because that's not a boring and lazy stereotype at all, right? The twist was NOTHING like Ras either. BB didn't spend the whole movie telling me that Ken Wantabe wanted to destroy Gotham only to tell me that Liam Neeson is the villain and to ignore all that "true justice" talk because he just wants to take all their money. Also it wasn't treated as a joke, didn't halt and/or drain the tension of the movie, and it progressed the film and the characters relationship nicely into the films dramatic conclusion.
Just as I expected: you weren't paying attention to the movie. At all.

Aldrich Killian *is* The Mandarin. You don't like it; fine. A lot of people don't. But Aldrich Killian *is* The Mandarin. The actor has said so, the director has said so, the producer has said so, the guy who heads up Marvel Studios has said so.

I understand that you like Kingsley's faux character better, and you're not alone there. But Killian is the true villain, and he *is* The Mandarin. And he is *nothing* like a "butthurt evil moneygrubbing guy," as you so eloquently put it. You don't understand his backstory or motivation at all.

Aldrich Killian isn't motivated by greed, but by power. And hell, he even has an altruistic bent to his method --- he just wants to share the power of Extremis with wounded warriors like him, to help them not only heal their physical and psychological war wounds, but to become better and stronger soldiers in the end. (Just be careful of that whole spontaneous combustion side effect.)

And he's not "butthurt" by Tony's snub, and is not seeking revenge against him. In fact, the NYE99 party was a turning point in his life not because of Tony Stark's arrogance, but because of Maya Hansen's gift. Aldrich Killian, and The Mandarin, was born on that night; a night that very nearly was his last.

And rather than trying to seek out and kill Tony Stark to avenge some personal snub (as many people wrongly assume), he actually comes to Stark Industries for help at the start of the movie --- looking for financial funding for the Extremis project. He doesn't get that funding; but he doesn't get mad about that, either. But when Tony calls out his decoy and throws down the gauntlet, Killian doesn't have any real choice but to take the fight to Stark Mansion, to keep Tony from finding out that his media creation is all a charade to keep the government and public from discovering the explosive side effects of Extremis. Then when Maya Hansen finds out that Tony might actually know a formula that can circumvent the problem with the explosions, Killian changes his strategy again and tries to force Stark to help him out.

*That's* Killian's story. There's no hackneyed greed or revenge storyline going on here. It's about power, personal and political.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:02 AM   #593
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He played a caricature. I, like most others, went into the movie liking said caricature. However, after the reveal, I, unlike some others, understood the absurdity of the caricature and understood that we were subverted into thinking that some hokey iconography was a proxy for menace.
He appeared to be an american soldier or general of some sort who'd grown disgusted with his own country due to the heinous acts they'd commited under the guise of "freedom and democracy" and had taken on the appearance of many cultures as a means of visually opposing everything america. It actually would've made a neat paralell to how Tony himself became disgusted with how he'd become a part of a system that was comfortable with zero accountability in IRON MAN 1. Not a caricature at all.
Quote:
My qualm is that instead of appreciating or even understanding the contextual intelligence embedded in this construct, there seems to be a vocal minority married to the comic-accurate representation of Mandarin, which was absurd and racist to start with.
I don't care. You shouldn't generalize a group if that's not what you mean to do. Your problem, not mine.
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To address the 'rudeness' part... was I unfriendly/confrontational in my post? Possibly. However, no where did I levy anything resembling a personal attack. Ironically, that's exactly what you did when you called me out for being 'ignorant'.
It's good to know that you can gather torches for your witch hunt, and generalizations of prejudice, but I can't defend. And I didn't call you ignorant. I said your post shrieked of insulting ignorance, which it did. And still does. I notice you have yet to actually soften your language through an edit to avoid a further inciting event.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:08 AM   #594
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Just as I expected: you weren't paying attention to the movie. At all.

Aldrich Killian *is* The Mandarin. You don't like it; fine. A lot of people don't. But Aldrich Killian *is* The Mandarin. The actor has said so, the director has said so, the producer has said so, the guy who heads up Marvel Studios has said so.

I understand that you like Kingsley's faux character better, and you're not alone there. But Killian is the true villain, and he *is* The Mandarin.
Never said any of this either. I have no idea what you're talking about.


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Old 05-28-2013, 09:14 AM   #595
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Just as I expected: you weren't paying attention to the movie. At all.

Aldrich Killian *is* The Mandarin. You don't like it; fine. A lot of people don't. But Aldrich Killian *is* The Mandarin. The actor has said so, the director has said so, the producer has said so, the guy who heads up Marvel Studios has said so.

I understand that you like Kingsley's faux character better, and you're not alone there. But Killian is the true villain, and he *is* The Mandarin. And he is *nothing* like a "butthurt evil moneygrubbing guy," as you so eloquently put it. You don't understand his backstory or motivation at all.

Aldrich Killian isn't motivated by greed, but by power. And hell, he even has an altruistic bent to his method --- he just wants to share the power of Extremis with wounded warriors like him, to help them not only heal their physical and psychological war wounds, but to become better and stronger soldiers in the end. (Just be careful of that whole spontaneous combustion side effect.)

And he's not "butthurt" by Tony's snub, and is not seeking revenge against him. In fact, the NYE99 party was a turning point in his life not because of Tony Stark's arrogance, but because of Maya Hansen's gift. Aldrich Killian, and The Mandarin, was born on that night; a night that very nearly was his last.

And rather than trying to seek out and kill Tony Stark to avenge some personal snub (as many people wrongly assume), he actually comes to Stark Industries for help at the start of the movie --- looking for financial funding for the Extremis project. He doesn't get that funding; but he doesn't get mad about that, either. But when Tony calls out his decoy and throws down the gauntlet, Killian doesn't have any real choice but to take the fight to Stark Mansion, to keep Tony from finding out that his media creation is all a charade to keep the government and public from discovering the explosive side effects of Extremis. Then when Maya Hansen finds out that Tony might actually know a formula that can circumvent the problem with the explosions, Killian changes his strategy again and tries to force Stark to help him out.

*That's* Killian's story. There's no hackneyed greed or revenge storyline going on here. It's about power, personal and political.
I didn't say he did want revenge. Nor did I say he didn't want power. Greed doesn't just mean a desire for financial gain. So I don't know what you're talking about. You should also know that this post comes across as unnecessarily, and overly, agressive. Perhaps you could alter your attitude for future discussions with others.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:43 AM   #596
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Really? Interesting. I honestly never would've guessed. Mother or Father's side?
Father is Rahimtulla Harji Bhanji

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:48 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
The Mandarin isn't a nonexistent hoax. The Mandarin is Aldrich Killian. That's made clear in the movie, and Shane Black and Kevin Feige have specifically confirmed this in interviews after the movie's release. We're all still debating on how far back Killian's involvement with Ten Rings actually goes, but he is *definitely* The Mandarin; Trevor Slattery isn't.
MINO. Mandarin in name only.




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Exactly. I think The Mandarin twist was genius. He existed through Killian. I've never seen anything like that
Ra's al Ghul.




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Absolutely. Ben Kingsley's "Fake Mandarin" was all about subversion of the whole "dreaded boogie man" concept, orchestrated by Killian, and by his design, played up in the media. What made the 'Mandarin twist' genius was that it was a subversion of two groups' expectations: the characters in the movie AND the audience of the movie itself.
Sure, if they had come with the idea that Two-Face, for example, is Harvey Dent and other guy with his face brunt, it would have come out as a shock. Because that is not the character.

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There is one thing I find hilarious in all of this, though. Consider the following thought exercise: Assume Killian's part was played by, say, Ken Watanabe or Chow Yun-Fat instead of Guy Pearce. I'm thinking the 'Mandarin loyalists' wouldn't have registered a single complaint. They just want their Asian-dude Mandarin, dammit.
You mean they wanted a proper portrayal of the character. I can only guess how funny that concept must be for you.

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Then again, maybe an even more hardcore faction would've then sprung up and demanded magic rings, fu manchus, Genghis Khan lineage and all the rest of that zaniness.
Or the character the way it was being shown in the actual movie. The only zaniness was provided by Trevor Slattery.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:49 AM   #598
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Father is Rahimtulla Harji Bhanji
Indian. Not Chinese as Mandarin was created.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:53 AM   #599
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Indian. Not Chinese as Mandarin was created.

But you said he wasn't Asian. say what you mean

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Old 05-28-2013, 10:03 AM   #600
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But you said he wasn't Asian. say what you mean
I said he wasn't Asian???

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