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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
Hate it! 104 41.27%
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:34 PM   #626
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Where is this "good character" of which you speak....?
Oh, wait, I get it....you're insinuating that a D-lister racist caricature at the top of a long list of crappy Iron Man villains --- you know, the one who got the crackerjack pew-pew alien magic rings (that shoot laser beams and fireballs and stuff) from a dead dragon in a crashed flying saucer and then proceeded to establish himself as a Genghis Khan/Fu Manchu warlord in a China that apparently never quite evolved past the feudal era --- you're insinuating *that* cartoon character is a "good character," right....?

....yeah, no.
That's like suggesting a drunken playboy would make a great superhero.

Execution.

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Old 05-28-2013, 06:45 PM   #627
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Where is this "good character" of which you speak....?
Oh, wait, I get it....you're insinuating that a D-lister racist caricature at the top of a long list of crappy Iron Man villains --- you know, the one who got the crackerjack pew-pew alien magic rings (that shoot laser beams and fireballs and stuff) from a dead dragon in a crashed flying saucer and then proceeded to establish himself as a Genghis Khan/Fu Manchu warlord in a China that apparently never quite evolved past the feudal era --- you're insinuating *that* cartoon character is a "good character," right....?

....yeah, no.
I'm curious, was there a large contingent on here (before the Mandarin twist was public knowledge) that watched the Iron Man 3 trailers and were upset that the Mandarin was in the film because he was such a "crappy D-lister villain?" Was that the general consensus after watching the trailers? Or is this only being said now because of the twist in the movie?

I watched the trailers and was very excited to see the Mandarin that was being played out and felt completely cheated when it was actually Killian that was truly the Mandarin. Not once when I was watching the trailers or watching the film did I think, wow this Mandarin is incredibly crappy and a total D-list villain, how dare Marvel use him?! I felt quite the opposite. And to not have that ultimately played out was extremely disappointing to go along with a very lame twist. It just sucked out all the excitement from me as I was watching the film and it was never regained.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:20 PM   #628
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I didn't mind the twist, simply because I've only read a handful of Iron Man comics in my life so I don't have any particular affinity for the Mandarin. Though I will acknowledge that if a movie did something similar with a villain I care about like the Joker or Lex Luthor, I guess I'd probably be pissed. So I can understand where some of you are coming from.

Anyway, I did enjoy Kingsley as Trevor though and I though Guy Pearce made a good head villain. I thought it was stupid having him say "I AM THE REAL MANDARIN" at the end though. What the hell was the point of that? Stark already knew he was behind everything and there really was no "real" Mandarin... that little speech Killian gave there just felt really cheesy.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:34 PM   #629
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I didn't mind the twist, simply because I've only read a handful of Iron Man comics in my life so I don't have any particular affinity for the Mandarin. Though I will acknowledge that if a movie did something similar with a villain I care about like the Joker or Lex Luthor, I guess I'd probably be pissed. So I can understand where some of you are coming from.

Anyway, I did enjoy Kingsley as Trevor though and I though Guy Pearce made a good head villain. I thought it was stupid having him say "I AM THE REAL MANDARIN" at the end though. What the hell was the point of that? Stark already knew he was behind everything and there really was no "real" Mandarin... that little speech Killian gave there just felt really cheesy.
The Joker and Lex Luthor are such iconic characters that a creative liberty/misdirection would probably never work and would anger many people. The Mandarin is nowhere near an iconic character, by any means.

And at the end, Killian only said "I AM THE MANDARIN"...no "real" in there. Dramatic emphasis, for sure. But in the mind of the character, he was on a power trip and was pretty pissed off. He probably wanted to rub in Tony's face the fact that he duped him and all that.

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Old 05-28-2013, 10:59 PM   #630
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I'll say this once, and once only: drop the whole dime-store psychoanalysis personal comments and threats. The only one being insulting and offensive here is you. Feel free to report me and anyone else you want if you feel like people are being meanies because they don't agree with what you're saying, but you'll find that the mods don't take kindly to false reporting around here. They can clearly see and judge when someone has stepped over the line in their commentary, and *you've* done that on more than one occasion already. I'd suggest you grow some thicker skin if you want to continue to make unpopular comments. God knows I did, as did everyone else here. Welcome to SHH.
I don't care. You're being vicious to someone who has been nothing but civil with you. And it's uncalled for, unwarranted, and uneccesary. I have every right to defend myself from people like you. And if I get banned for doing so like you're implying, well, it is what it is, and it shows what kind individuals have power here, and that's not something I want to be a part of anyway. But back on the matter at hand: I haven't threatened you, or anyone really, with the exception of that person who made a comment that generalized the group who didn't like the twist, which is wrong. Why would I report you? You haven't said anything that would be offensive to people. I didn't psychoanalyze you either. Why are you saying things that never happened?

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Old 05-28-2013, 11:04 PM   #631
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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The Joker and Lex Luthor are such iconic characters that a creative liberty/misdirection would probably never work and would anger many people. The Mandarin is nowhere near an iconic character, by any means.
Agreed. Iron Man doesn't really have those iconic villains like many other superheroes do.

Quote:
And at the end, Killian only said "I AM THE MANDARIN"...no "real" in there. Dramatic emphasis, for sure. But in the mind of the character, he was on a power trip and was pretty pissed off. He probably wanted to rub in Tony's face the fact that he duped him and all that.
Yeah I took his "I AM THE MANDARIN!" as not literally he is the Mandarin but that at this point he is gloating and so full of himself and cocky at the joy he had in completely fooling Tony Stark. Revenge slowly planned since New Years 2000.

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Old 05-28-2013, 11:56 PM   #632
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I'm curious, was there a large contingent on here (before the Mandarin twist was public knowledge) that watched the Iron Man 3 trailers and were upset that the Mandarin was in the film because he was such a "crappy D-lister villain?" Was that the general consensus after watching the trailers? Or is this only being said now because of the twist in the movie?

I watched the trailers and was very excited to see the Mandarin that was being played out and felt completely cheated when it was actually Killian that was truly the Mandarin. Not once when I was watching the trailers or watching the film did I think, wow this Mandarin is incredibly crappy and a total D-list villain, how dare Marvel use him?! I felt quite the opposite. And to not have that ultimately played out was extremely disappointing to go along with a very lame twist. It just sucked out all the excitement from me as I was watching the film and it was never regained.
No, there was a large contingent on these boards early on saying Mandarin should be in IM3, and a large contingent that said he shouldn't. Then the official report came down from Feige and Shane Black that Mandarin *wouldn't* be in the movie, and that the villain(s) was first Ghost; then later that was changed to Aldrich Killian with Coldblood and Firepower as henchies. And that's the way it remained until halfway through filming, when out of the blue, they announced that Ben Kingsley would be playing The Mandarin. Then there was a large contingent on here *****ing about them getting a "non-Asian" (this just in: India is no longer considered part of Asia; apparently it is now part of South America, maybe...?) to play Mandarin. Then we got the earliest trailer reveals of Kingsley-Mandarin, and most everybody was onboard with the new rendition of him. Then I started speculating that Killian was still the actual villain after all, and Kingsley was working for him, and everybody jumped my **** for it. Then James Badge Dale revealed in an interview that Kingsley was, in fact, working for Killian, and that Killian was the brains of the outfit while Kingsley was just a mouthpiece. Then everybody jumped my **** for it again, just 'cause. Then the movie came out, and Kingsley *was* a mouthpiece, and Kingsley *was* working for Killian, and suddenly everyone was "shocked" by this M. Night "twist" that "came out of nowhere."

Yeah, that's pretty much the way it all went down. More...or less. Less....or more.

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Old 05-29-2013, 12:51 AM   #633
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by FlawlessVictory View Post
I'm curious, was there a large contingent on here (before the Mandarin twist was public knowledge) that watched the Iron Man 3 trailers and were upset that the Mandarin was in the film because he was such a "crappy D-lister villain?" Was that the general consensus after watching the trailers? Or is this only being said now because of the twist in the movie?
Exactly! The same way some posters keep saying that there weren't all these Mandarin "fans" until the twist, it sure seems like there's a whole lot of Mandarin detractors that didn't exist until the twist either.

I would venture to guess that most people were excited about his inclusion in this movie, and by him I'm specifically talking about Kingsley's Mandarin, the only one we knew about going in (for those of us who kept our nose somewhat clean anyhow). I didn't see a whole lot about him being a terrible villain with goofy rings or any of that, until now.

It's to the point that I think people might be defending the twist simply because they enjoyed the movie, when both things don't necessarily need to go hand in hand. Personally, the twist did have a very negative impact on how I viewed the film and by extension the trilogy itself. But if you enjoyed the movie it doesn't automatically mean that you need to hate the original comic book version of The Mandarin either. I surmise most people had no strong emotional attachment to the character (to this level) either way beforehand but how they feel about the movie itself is coloring their perception now. Point being, there are some of us, on both sides of the fence, that may have had some type of affinity or disdain for the character previously, but I don't know if it was to this extent...

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Old 05-29-2013, 12:56 AM   #634
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I don't care. You're being vicious to someone who has been nothing but civil with you. And it's uncalled for, unwarranted, and uneccesary. I have every right to defend myself from people like you. And if I get banned for doing so like you're implying, well, it is what it is, and it shows what kind individuals have power here, and that's not something I want to be a part of anyway. But back on the matter at hand: I haven't threatened you, or anyone really, with the exception of that person who made a comment that generalized the group who didn't like the twist, which is wrong. Why would I report you? You haven't said anything that would be offensive to people. I didn't psychoanalyze you either. Why are you saying things that never happened?
You need to back down from complaining about rudeness since the main person being rude has been you. You've accused a couple of being uncivil and ignorant but they've actually had the most cogent and well-thought out arguments for The Mandarin actually being in the movie, albeit in a different form than the comics. This back and forth on the Mandarin has been the biggest issue in IM3 since it seems to have really colored many people's opinion of the whole movie. People have staked out their positions and if you can't handle them giving good, fact-based arguments without taking it personal, then maybe you need to either grow thicker skin or find somewhere else to debate that's more to your liking.


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Old 05-29-2013, 05:21 AM   #635
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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You need to back down from complaining about rudeness since the main person being rude has been you. You've accused a couple of being uncivil and ignorant but they've actually had the most cogent and well-thought out arguments for The Mandarin actually being in the movie, albeit in a different form than the comics. This back and forth on the Mandarin has been the biggest issue in IM3 since it seems to have really colored many people's opinion of the whole movie. People have staked out their positions and if you can't handle them giving good, fact-based arguments without taking it personal, then maybe you need to either grow thicker skin or find somewhere else to debate that's more to your liking.
I don't care. Why is this hard to understand? When an actual fact-based argument that is relevent to what I say is presented, I will care. But that hasn't happened. And I haven't been rude or called someone ignorant in this discussion. I've actually been pretty generously civil, all things considered. Stop making stuff up.

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Old 05-29-2013, 08:36 AM   #636
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Exactly! The same way some posters keep saying that there weren't all these Mandarin "fans" until the twist, it sure seems like there's a whole lot of Mandarin detractors that didn't exist until the twist either.

I would venture to guess that most people were excited about his inclusion in this movie, and by him I'm specifically talking about Kingsley's Mandarin, the only one we knew about going in (for those of us who kept our nose somewhat clean anyhow). I didn't see a whole lot about him being a terrible villain with goofy rings or any of that, until now.

It's to the point that I think people might be defending the twist simply because they enjoyed the movie, when both things don't necessarily need to go hand in hand. Personally, the twist did have a very negative impact on how I viewed the film and by extension the trilogy itself. But if you enjoyed the movie it doesn't automatically mean that you need to hate the original comic book version of The Mandarin either. I surmise most people had no strong emotional attachment to the character (to this level) either way beforehand but how they feel about the movie itself is coloring their perception now. Point being, there are some of us, on both sides of the fence, that may have had some type of affinity or disdain for the character previously, but I don't know if it was to this extent...
I've seen complaints about Mandarin being a terrible comic-book villain for the past 40 years. I've been collecting since 1975, and the one thing about Iron Man villains that's always been discussed in all the comic-book stores and comic-cons I've gone to over the decades is how ****** his rogues' gallery has always been (just like Hulk's).

But that's not the reason I "defend" the Mandarin Twist. The reason I "defend" it is because it's an absolutely brilliant statement about (a) our modern political situation, where corporate and government interests try to scare us with boogeymen and terrorists that have literally been created *by* those interests; and (b) about the tired old genre trope that "a hero is only as good as his villain." I'd be willing to bet that Shane Black and Kevin Feige recognize what I said above --- that Iron Man simply has a crappy rogues' gallery, period --- and chose to comment on that by proving that a hero is defined by what he does, *not* who he fights.

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Old 05-29-2013, 11:11 AM   #637
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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The fact is, they turned a mediocre character into a very good joke while also giving us an awesome villain in Killian/Mandarin. Killian was a far greater threat than any of Iron Man's previous villains as he was able to go one-on-one with the armor and destroy it with his bare hands. Gaining Killian was more than an equal trade-off for losing a lame and potentially offensive portrayal of the comic book Mandarin.
Killian isn't the Mandarin. He says he is the Mandarin, but since he has no grounds of calling himself that, I refuse to say that he is the Mandarin. He's Killian, a villain of Tony's and the master mind behind everything, but that's it. There is no real Mandarin in MCU

also, there has been like a million cliched stereotypical russian bad guys but suddenly it'd be a crime to do the original Mandarin or carry out the Kingsley's version


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Old 05-29-2013, 12:19 PM   #638
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Killian isn't the Mandarin. He says he is the Mandarin, but since he has no grounds of calling himself that, I refuse to say that he is the Mandarin. He's Killian, a villain of Tony's and the master mind behind everything, but that's it. There is no real Mandarin in MCU

also, there has been like a million cliched stereotypical russian bad guys but suddenly it'd be a crime to do the original Mandarin or carry out the Kingsley's version
Thats like saying Tony never had any grounds to call himself Iron Man because the suit wasn't actually made of iron

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Old 05-29-2013, 12:41 PM   #639
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Thats like saying Tony never had any grounds to call himself Iron Man because the suit wasn't actually made of iron
If Tony had had an unempoyed actor in the suit, then he shouldn't be claiming he's Iron Man. Maybe the brain behind it and metaphorically he is, but he wouldn't be the character.

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Old 05-29-2013, 12:44 PM   #640
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If Tony had had an unempoyed actor in the suit, then he shouldn't be claiming he's Iron Man. Maybe the brain behind it and metaphorically he is, but he wouldn't be the character.
The "unemployed actor in the suit" would actually be *doing* stuff. Trevor in the movie never did; all he ever was, was an actor on a stage. The only person who ever *did* anything was Killian.

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Old 05-29-2013, 01:49 PM   #641
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The "unemployed actor in the suit" would actually be *doing* stuff. Trevor in the movie never did; all he ever was, was an actor on a stage. The only person who ever *did* anything was Killian.
Killian is a great villain actually. But he is not the Mandarin.

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Old 05-29-2013, 01:53 PM   #642
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I don't care. Why is this hard to understand? When an actual fact-based argument that is relevent to what I say is presented, I will care. But that hasn't happened. And I haven't been rude or called someone ignorant in this discussion. I've actually been pretty generously civil, all things considered. Stop making stuff up.
Considering you've presented several wrong facts and observations about Kingsley and The Mandarin in IM3, I wouldn't exactly say you've provided a good fact-based argument in your favor either. Plus, saying you'd report fixxxer and cherokeesam for supposedly rude behavior further after they corrected you diminishes your argument about being civil in this whole discussion. You only seem to care in finding someone who shares your narrow opinion of what The Mandarin should be. The IM movies have changed characters comic origins/look/personalities to fit whatever story they are trying to tell. The Mandarin in IM3 is nothing new for Marvel in changing a villain.

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Old 05-29-2013, 06:20 PM   #643
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Killian isn't the Mandarin. He says he is the Mandarin, but since he has no grounds of calling himself that, I refuse to say that he is the Mandarin. He's Killian, a villain of Tony's and the master mind behind everything, but that's it. There is no real Mandarin in MCU

also, there has been like a million cliched stereotypical russian bad guys but suddenly it'd be a crime to do the original Mandarin or carry out the Kingsley's version
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Killian is a great villain actually. But he is not the Mandarin.
Yes. Yes, he is The Mandarin.
Shane Black and Kevin Feige have specifically confirmed this in interviews.
You can continue to live in denial all you want, but facts are facts.
And Aldrich Killian is The Mandarin. And that's the fact, jack

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Old 05-29-2013, 06:47 PM   #644
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Considering you've presented several wrong facts and observations about Kingsley and The Mandarin in IM3, I wouldn't exactly say you've provided a good fact-based argument in your favor either. Plus, saying you'd report fixxxer and cherokeesam for supposedly rude behavior further after they corrected you diminishes your argument about being civil in this whole discussion. You only seem to care in finding someone who shares your narrow opinion of what The Mandarin should be. The IM movies have changed characters comic origins/look/personalities to fit whatever story they are trying to tell. The Mandarin in IM3 is nothing new for Marvel in changing a villain.
I don't like comics. I have never said anything about the comic Mandarin or wanting him in this movie, because I have no real interest in him. You and cherokeesam keep making stuff up like this and I have no idea why. I haven't stated any incorrect facts about IM3 Mandarin. And it's not my fault that I have no interest in rumaging through Ben Kingsley's personal life info. I didn't say I'd report cherokeesam. And I was well within my personal rights to call fixxxer out on what I found to be an offensive generalisation. Although it's nice to know that "civil" apparently now means that I'm not allowed to tell someone when they've done something wrong.

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Old 05-29-2013, 06:56 PM   #645
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Yes. Yes, he is The Mandarin.
Shane Black and Kevin Feige have specifically confirmed this in interviews.
You can continue to live in denial all you want, but facts are facts.
And Aldrich Killian is The Mandarin. And that's the fact, jack
Who cares what SB and KF say? They're not in the movie. All that matters is what happens in canon.

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Old 05-29-2013, 07:32 PM   #646
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I've seen complaints about Mandarin being a terrible comic-book villain for the past 40 years. I've been collecting since 1975, and the one thing about Iron Man villains that's always been discussed in all the comic-book stores and comic-cons I've gone to over the decades is how ****** his rogues' gallery has always been (just like Hulk's).

But that's not the reason I "defend" the Mandarin Twist. The reason I "defend" it is because it's an absolutely brilliant statement about (a) our modern political situation, where corporate and government interests try to scare us with boogeymen and terrorists that have literally been created *by* those interests; and (b) about the tired old genre trope that "a hero is only as good as his villain." I'd be willing to bet that Shane Black and Kevin Feige recognize what I said above --- that Iron Man simply has a crappy rogues' gallery, period --- and chose to comment on that by proving that a hero is defined by what he does, *not* who he fights.
Except that's wrong. Villains challenge the heroes, show them what they're made of. The challenges we overcome in life define us, that's what villains represent. How does Tony overcome his PTSD? His villain blows his life apart, forcing him to rely on himself and his personal skills to be a hero. And why do people care about the lame "corporations are evil and manipulative too" message, as if this isn't something that everyone already knows? Does Shane Black think the entire audience consists of four year olds?

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Old 05-29-2013, 07:42 PM   #647
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Hated it.

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Old 05-29-2013, 07:46 PM   #648
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Who cares what SB and KF say? They're not in the movie. All that matters is what happens in canon.
That's a very weird thing to say as the intentions of the filmmaker is a relevant part to take into consideration when analyzing a movie. Like in all communication, if you don't listen to intent you'll get lost.

I don't know what you're trying to achieve either since they just say exactly what the character in the movie says; Killian is the Mandarin.

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Old 05-29-2013, 08:07 PM   #649
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
I don't like comics. I have never said anything about the comic Mandarin or wanting him in this movie, because I have no real interest in him. You and cherokeesam keep making stuff up like this and I have no idea why. I haven't stated any incorrect facts about IM3 Mandarin. And it's not my fault that I have no interest in rumaging through Ben Kingsley's personal life info. I didn't say I'd report cherokeesam. And I was well within my personal rights to call fixxxer out on what I found to be an offensive generalisation. Although it's nice to know that "civil" apparently now means that I'm not allowed to tell someone when they've done something wrong.
I think you may be a tad oversensitive if you found fixxxer's generalization offensive. I saw it as him giving the only likely scenario that would have made most of the movie Mandarin detractors happy, a very Asian-looking Mandarin that didn't differentiate from the comic version at all.

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Old 05-29-2013, 08:12 PM   #650
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
That's a very weird thing to say as the intentions of the filmmaker is a relevant part to take into consideration when analyzing a movie. Like in all communication, if you don't listen to intent you'll get lost.

I don't know what you're trying to achieve either since they just say exactly what the character in the movie says; Killian is the Mandarin.
He's been schooled by several posters and his set-in-stone opinion is not allowing any of their arguments be coherent to him. I'm done with him.

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