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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
Hate it! 104 41.27%
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Old 06-02-2013, 07:27 AM   #726
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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A line "it was always me" is too grand to only be placed on the time span of IM3, note that it all happened during christmas. Not that I even needed to point that out since the line already in very obvious cliched fashion implied that he always was the big bad behind the scenes (whether he knew or not at the time of IM1 that the afganistan branch of the ten rings had captured Tony). While I have an actual argument, you are just saying "well you might as well be wrong" without explaining what you base this on

Also, Killian coming to ask help from Stark doesn't disprove anything, it contradicts. The concept of Killian being the big bad behind the scenes was slapped on without thinking of the consequences and what it would contradict
Again: the fact that Aldrich Killian comes to Stark Enterprises at the start of the movie to ask for financial aid *proves* that he doesn't hold a grudge against Tony. Explain how you think that disproves that....? According to you, he hates Tony Stark; therefore he....hits him up for money. Okay....???


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and the point about Killian being a fake: Your theory was that Killian realized he could revive the semi-fallen terrorist group "the ten rings" so he could use them as a scapegoat for the accidental explosions. In that case Killian is a fake Mandarin in spirit because his motivations of leading this terrorist organisation are the following: scapegoating explosions and later profit from a self-made war. He made up the Mandarin persona to disguise his own persona thus he could lead the group

So the Mandarin persona is fake from the start. But later that persona takes human form in Kingsley's The Mandarin, so when you think about it, in spirit Ben Kingsley's Mandarin was always the leader of Ten Rings and not Killian at all. When he says "I AM the Mandarin" it would mean that he's the fake persona he created when he joined the Ten Rings. But he is not that persona at all, thus he can't say that he's the Mandarin
....That's like saying The Man Behind the Curtain can't really call himself The Wizard of Oz.

The Mandarin is Killian's own invention. He *is* The Mandarin who gives orders to a still-functioning Ten Rings organization, while at the same time leading them (and the rest of the general public) to believe that "The Mandarin" is actually the persona we see in the video fatwas.

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Old 06-02-2013, 11:06 AM   #727
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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....That's like saying The Man Behind the Curtain can't really call himself The Wizard of Oz.

The Mandarin is Killian's own invention. He *is* The Mandarin who gives orders to a still-functioning Ten Rings organization, while at the same time leading them (and the rest of the general public) to believe that "The Mandarin" is actually the persona we see in the video fatwas.
Absolutely. Thing is the "wizard" as seen by everyone, does not exist. But yes, the character who "created" him can call himself Wizard.

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Old 06-02-2013, 12:27 PM   #728
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I will just say this: Iron Man 3's Ten Rings retcons Iron Man's Ten Rings.

You can't have a terrorist ring that actually felt like a terrorist ring become such a falsehood that was just created only to hide failed attempts at a program, as Killian used to hide his Extremis mistakes and only create this Mandarin mock up to be the leader of said terrorist organization. The Ten Rings were known already as going into villages and ransacking them and now the only bombings they are involved in are where failed Extremis projects exploded. IM3's version has nothing to do with the first film's version except for the logo.

I'm not a fan of that either, and it's a slap to the face that resembles Flint Marko being Uncle Ben's real killer.

And I too have a problem with Killian calling himself the true Mandarin. Yes, he created the character, but he also created a caricature of The Mandarin, while Killian himself is this businessman/scientist.


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Old 06-02-2013, 01:21 PM   #729
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
....That's like saying The Man Behind the Curtain can't really call himself The Wizard of Oz.

The Mandarin is Killian's own invention. He *is* The Mandarin who gives orders to a still-functioning Ten Rings organization, while at the same time leading them (and the rest of the general public) to believe that "The Mandarin" is actually the persona we see in the video fatwas.
The difference is that "the guy behind the curtain" isn't in it for any ruse like Killian. It's not the same.

in spirit the made up persona, or the so called puppet, "The Mandarin" is who leads the Ten Rings, and Killian, the pupper master, is a completely different persona himself with different ideology and motivations than what the puppet's made up persona is. What makes my point even more valid is that his own terrorist ring isn't in on the secret and doesn't connect Killian physically with the concept of Mandarin, so the Mandarin even before Trevor Slattery was just a puppet in theory, a separate persona. Who physically has the status doesn't even matter

and also what Anno said.


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Old 06-02-2013, 04:58 PM   #730
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

So people are now saying The Mandarin is not even in the movie? The Mandarin is Aldrich Killian, no matter how much people want to keep denying it and arguing against what Feige and Black have stated. He's a totally different interpretation than the comic version, but in the end, is Tony's main foe in the movie and actually calls gives himself the title of The Mandarin.

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Old 06-02-2013, 05:14 PM   #731
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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So people are now saying The Mandarin is not even in the movie? The Mandarin is Aldrich Killian, no matter how much people want to keep denying it and arguing against what Feige and Black have stated. He's a totally different interpretation than the comic version, but in the end, is Tony's main foe in the movie and actually calls gives himself the title of The Mandarin.
I acknowledge the possibility that Mandarin exists. The worst possible incarnation imaginable, but yes.

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Old 06-02-2013, 05:23 PM   #732
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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So people are now saying The Mandarin is not even in the movie? The Mandarin is Aldrich Killian, no matter how much people want to keep denying it and arguing against what Feige and Black have stated. He's a totally different interpretation than the comic version, but in the end, is Tony's main foe in the movie and actually calls gives himself the title of The Mandarin.
No one is denying Mandarin doesn't exist within Iron Man 3, only that it's a cheap idea and makes no sense in the end(Killian's line in the end as well at the Ten Rings as a whole being only a front and not a legit thing as in the first film).

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Old 06-02-2013, 06:39 PM   #733
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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No one is denying Mandarin doesn't exist within Iron Man 3, only that it's a cheap idea and makes no sense in the end(Killian's line in the end as well at the Ten Rings as a whole being only a front and not a legit thing as in the first film).
This. The traditional Mandarin is my favorite Iron Man villain. The movie universe's interpretation was a big disappointment.

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Old 06-02-2013, 06:54 PM   #734
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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This. The traditional Mandarin is my favorite Iron Man villain. The movie universe's interpretation was a big disappointment.
One of the worst since FFROTSS's Galactus. Well, at least Galactus there was himself, and you cannot argue that he didn't exist.

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Old 06-02-2013, 07:10 PM   #735
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I acknowledge the possibility that Mandarin exists. The worst possible incarnation imaginable, but yes.
Ehhhh...


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Old 06-02-2013, 08:36 PM   #736
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

No, that's even better than what we got.

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Old 06-02-2013, 09:11 PM   #737
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Ehhhh...

Much better.

But it was already great when Kinglsey "was" the Mandarin. That's what's so annoying. They got the perfect tone for the character, but decided what the hell, this is better off turning into a comedy.

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Old 06-02-2013, 10:44 PM   #738
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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But it was already great when Kinglsey "was" the Mandarin. That's what's so annoying. They got the perfect tone for the character, but decided what the hell, this is better off turning into a comedy.
Exactly. I absolutely loved what I was seeing from the trailers and throughout the film up until the twist. He was shaping up to be one of the all time best comic book villains. What a disappointing turn of events.

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Old 06-02-2013, 11:07 PM   #739
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Now I for one hated the "twist" but you can't seriously be arguing that you'd rather have had that silly comic book mandarin w/ a retarded mask and M emblem on his chest?

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Old 06-02-2013, 11:11 PM   #740
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Now I for one hated the "twist" but you can't seriously be arguing that you'd rather have had that silly comic book mandarin w/ a retarded mask and M emblem on his chest?
No, we're arguing that the way they had portrayed the character was great.

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Old 06-02-2013, 11:57 PM   #741
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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So people are now saying The Mandarin is not even in the movie?
I'm not saying that Mandarin's not really in the movie. I'm only saying that Killian ending up being the real Mandarin is absurd

let's recap shall we: Killian invented The Mandarin persona to be the leader of the Ten Rings so he could use them for his own game. it's just a big swindle

But even though Killian and the Mandarin persona are different, it just matters that he physically has the status of the leader of the Ten Rings right? Well, no. His own terrorist group isn't in on the scam and they don't connect Mandarin to Killian's physical appearance, all they ever hear (or see, Trevor) is the fake persona, so Killian and The Mandarin persona end up being separate entities. Killian is just writing and directing that character

this twist is a great example of the fact that making something unexpected doesn't alone make a twist brilliant


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Old 06-03-2013, 12:30 AM   #742
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I'm not saying that Mandarin's not really in the movie. I'm only saying that Killian ending up being the real Mandarin is absurd

let's recap shall we: Killian invented The Mandarin persona to be the leader of the Ten Rings so he could use them for his own game. it's just a big swindle

But even though Killian and the Mandarin persona are different, it just matters that he physically has the status of the leader of the Ten Rings right? Well, no. His own terrorist group isn't in on the scam and they don't connect Mandarin to Killian's physical appearance, all they ever hear (or see, Trevor) is the fake persona, so Killian and The Mandarin persona end up being separate entities. Killian is just writing and directing that character

this twist is a great example of the fact that making something unexpected doesn't alone make a twist brilliant
What *matters* is that Aldrich Killian is the physically imposing supervillain everybody's been asking for; that Aldrich Killian is the brilliant and manipulative evil genius that everybody's been asking for; and that he and Tony square off for one hell of a climactic battle that everybody's been asking for.

And yet: people in this very thread are now flat-out admitting that they wanted to see that godawful racist clown caricature from the comic book. The original --- and I do mean "original", 1960s --- Yellow Peril Mandarin.

I don't think they have a shred of credibility left in their arguments against Movie Mandarin after that. /smh

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Old 06-03-2013, 01:11 AM   #743
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What *matters* is that Aldrich Killian is the physically imposing supervillain everybody's been asking for; that Aldrich Killian is the brilliant and manipulative evil genius that everybody's been asking for; and that he and Tony square off for one hell of a climactic battle that everybody's been asking for.

And yet: people in this very thread are now flat-out admitting that they wanted to see that godawful racist clown caricature from the comic book. The original --- and I do mean "original", 1960s --- Yellow Peril Mandarin.

I don't think they have a shred of credibility left in their arguments against Movie Mandarin after that. /smh
It's absurd how you insist on ignoring that the movie HAD ALREADY the perfect incarnation of Mandarin, far from any caricature no one would have ever thought of including (we're not even having the 1960's Tony Stark, Pepper Potts or Happy Hogan, do we?).

The movie had it, and changed it for a joke and an excuse of character deconstruction. Awful decision.

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Old 06-03-2013, 01:38 AM   #744
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Now I for one hated the "twist" but you can't seriously be arguing that you'd rather have had that silly comic book mandarin w/ a retarded mask and M emblem on his chest?
Poor choice of words there.

But anywho, no one is saying they'd rather get that specific Mandarin with a costume, but a Mandarin nonetheless. For a moment in Iron Man 3, you had one that embodied the character to a T and I'm sure anyone would agree to that but then he became just a caricature which is sadly what Shane Black wanted Mandarin to be I guess().

But going back to the costumes...no one wants that as much as no one wanted this mess for Venom


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Old 06-03-2013, 02:17 AM   #745
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Seriously?

re·tard·ed

adjective \ri-ˈtärd-əd\ (Medical Dictionary)
Medical Definition of RETARDED

sometimes offensive : slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development : characterized by mental retardation

This new PC world we live in is out of control. I chose my words because that's what I wanted to say and anyone reading it could understand my meaning. Saying the mask looks stupid doesn't quite fit.

Not going all in-depth of my family biznass but I have an Aunt w/ Down-syndrone and two of her kids also have it. My son was once diagnosed on the Austism scale and some quack doctor told my wife and I that he was mentally retarded.

If you are offended by something I wrote then that's your problem. You feeling that someone is insensitive is you moreso being insecure.

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Old 06-03-2013, 02:26 AM   #746
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

you don't have to go all ape-s**t about it

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Old 06-03-2013, 05:55 AM   #747
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
What *matters* is that Aldrich Killian is the physically imposing supervillain everybody's been asking for; that Aldrich Killian is the brilliant and manipulative evil genius that everybody's been asking for; and that he and Tony square off for one hell of a climactic battle that everybody's been asking for.
I think you're misunderstanding me a little. It's completely ok for me that Killian is revealed to be the real big bad and that Mandarin was a made up character, but what's not ok is that Killian declares that he is in fact the real Mandarin himself.

The twist would've worked well without it. He would've still played the Ten Rings organisation with the made up persona "the Mandarin" to get what he wants, he would've still lead the American government to the wrong direction with that stereotypical terrorist character, he would've lost no character credibility. So, why should he piggyback on the name of the Mandarin when that part is just a side note in his grand plan anyway.

Still, just because that would've been ok for me, I still understand why the entire twist thing makes many people feel swindled

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Old 06-03-2013, 07:40 AM   #748
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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It's absurd how you insist on ignoring that the movie HAD ALREADY the perfect incarnation of Mandarin, far from any caricature no one would have ever thought of including (we're not even having the 1960's Tony Stark, Pepper Potts or Happy Hogan, do we?).

The movie had it, and changed it for a joke and an excuse of character deconstruction. Awful decision.
Really? You think that Kingsley's portrayal *wasn't* a racist caricature....? Okay.

Comic-book Mandarin was a racist caricature of Asians that was (stereo)typical of Western views of Communist China/Vietnam/North Korea back in the 60s; movie "Mandarin" updates the geography (as IM1 did by moving Iron Man's origin story from the Vietnam War to the war in Afghanistan) and makes him a caricature of our stereotypical views of Muslims today.

Had Kingsley Mandarin been played straight, without any subterfuge at all, then there'd still be a ton of moral outrage aimed at this movie: but it wouldn't be for a plot twist that offends a vocal minority of comic-book purists (with selective memories); it would be for offending a much broader audience seeing the movie stoop to the usual racist portrayal of "all Muslims are terrorists."

That's why the Mandarin Twist works so very well, and can *only* work the way it was rolled out, on three levels: (a) making us question our own racist views, but with contemporary Muslims in the crosshairs instead of outdated East Asian Commies; (b) satirizing our own "War on Terror" as chasing boogeymen of our own creation; (c) on a genre/comic-book level, illustrating not only how absurd the character is in the comics, but also deconstructing the hackneyed old trope that a superhero *has* to have a kickass nemesis to be considered relevant.

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Old 06-03-2013, 08:18 AM   #749
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

It is incredibly naive to think that some or many terrorist leaders in our world aren't very close to stereotypes. Not all, but some of them. And a muslim terrorist leader that supports chinese iconography isn't exactly a stereotype, not that I know of. Besides, Iron Man 1 wasn't much different in the muslim terrorism respect so where's the "ton of moral outrage" on that one?

Also, how is this supposed to be a big deal when there are a lot worse stereotypes of Russian bad guys still in films today, but there's no "ton of moral outrage" on that one? I'm sure there are few guys complainging about it in blogs, but really, is there a ton of outrage?

For my last point: if the original Mandarin was more of a stereotype of the events in 60's, a thing of the past, and the muslim stereotype is more relevant to us now, it would've been better ok to do something close to the comic book chinese version right? If you think that making a Chinese guy that supports iconography of his own country and does a little karate/kung fu would be making an unacceptable stereotype that everyone would rally over then you really need to wake up and stop grasping at straws just to defend this movie to death


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Old 06-03-2013, 08:50 AM   #750
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I'm not necessarily upset about the twist but even after Killian said he is the Mandarin, I still didn't think of him as the Mandarin.
He was just a guy named Killian who could breathe fire and used a decoy that he called "the mandarin".

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