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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
Hate it! 104 41.27%
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Old 08-16-2013, 07:08 PM   #976
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by giveyourself12% View Post
I would describe it as a whole group of people who felt that what was presented in the movie wasn't as good as what they were expecting based on the trailer.

By iconic I meant looking more like the classic Mandarin with all the pageantry. Robes...beard...rings...doesn't bother me that they were purely ornamental. I get that he didn't exist in the first place, that's the problem. He should have.

I think Killian would have been a pretty good villain, besides being just another evil-smart-science-dude-in-a-nice-suit a la Stane and Hammer, if we hadn't had a taste of Ben Kingsley as The Mandarin, the anti-American vendetta-ed -super-terrorist, the idea of whom I was salivating over.
Except would they have gone into why some people in the Middle East don't like America or would the Mandarin have just being an evil terrorist who hates America because the script says. I don't see how Mandarin would have been great villain, if he is just a terrorist stereotype who has no real reason for being evil?



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Political commentary doesn't belong in an Iron Man movie. It changed the focus from what was going on with the Tony Stark character to, "Look everybody, this is what we expect a terrorist to look like, but they don't always...see? Bigger powers are sometimes at work...see?".

They could have explored the Mandarin's role in the Ten Rings and Stark's backstory, that he authorized the attempted murder of Tony Stark in the first film...that he facilitated Vanko's journey to Monaco to kill Stark...THAT should have been where "We create our own demons" came in.

Instead, we got an Iron Man movie that was not about Iron Man/Tony Stark much at all and instead indeed did get political commentary that I'd wager the writers thought was "important" with character elements glossed over about a guy we'd never heard of before that Tony ditched on a roof and the part about his story finally being complete amounted to some tacked on voice over at the end of the political comment-erm- "movie" about removing the arc reactor and everything being fixed.
Again the problem with Mandarin is, for all this talk about how iconic he is, he usually inconsistently written, with different writers giving him different motives and a different personality each time. How can he be Stark's arch nemesis, when he doesn't even have a consistent personality? Again people say Mandarin is iconic, but only as an archetype, not as an actual characters with well defined motives. I would be more upset with what they did with Mandarin in the movie, if I didn't think Mandarin was an outdated archetype with very little in the way of consistent personality.

I am not saying Killian is a great villain, but really neither is comic book Mandarin for the most part.

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Old 08-16-2013, 07:15 PM   #977
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I disagree that political commentary doesn't belong in an IM movie. The character was FOUNDED in politics. Marvel wanted to take what the young liberals hated most during the Vietnam era (rich corporate tycoon) and make him a superhero. In regards to the trailer, the thing is, it DIDN"T give us a taste of what the film was. The trailers promised an epic, serious, dark movie with Tony's entire world being torn apart and him facing his greatest threat. It did not promise that the entire second half of the film would be a comedy with constant jokes that killed any sort of tension. For the record, I didn't hate the film, or even dislike it, but it certainly had significant flaws. I also thought that Killian was a good villain, but Kingsley was so intriguing and menacing that it is frustrating to think how epic he could have been if they played it straight instead of going for yet another quick and somewhat cheap joke. I don't hate the twist, I don't know how to feel about it.

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Old 08-16-2013, 07:18 PM   #978
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Also, in regards to the Mandarin's motives, Black and Feige compared him to Col. Kurtz from Apocalypse Now in pre-release interviews. They described him as a former intelligence operative who had an attack of conscience, went crazy, and became obsessed with Sun Tzu's Art of War and different warrior cultures throughout history. That is a fascinating motivation and if it would have been explored throughout the film, it could have been fantastic.

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Old 08-17-2013, 08:19 AM   #979
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Also, in regards to the Mandarin's motives, Black and Feige compared him to Col. Kurtz from Apocalypse Now in pre-release interviews. They described him as a former intelligence operative who had an attack of conscience, went crazy, and became obsessed with Sun Tzu's Art of War and different warrior cultures throughout history. That is a fascinating motivation and if it would have been explored throughout the film, it could have been fantastic.
Beat me to it.

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Again the problem with Mandarin is, for all this talk about how iconic he is, he usually inconsistently written, with different writers giving him different motives and a different personality each time. How can he be Stark's arch nemesis, when he doesn't even have a consistent personality? Again people say Mandarin is iconic, but only as an archetype, not as an actual characters with well defined motives. I would be more upset with what they did with Mandarin in the movie, if I didn't think Mandarin was an outdated archetype with very little in the way of consistent personality.

I am not saying Killian is a great villain, but really neither is comic book Mandarin for the most part.
Regarding Iron Man comics in relation to the movie's portrayal of the Mandarin, I don't have a dog in that fight. I just wanted what I expected from the trailer and would probably had been ok with the twist if Killian had been as interesting of a villain as Kingsley's purported character.

The trailers promised an epic, serious, dark movie with Tony's entire world being torn apart and him facing his greatest threat. It did not promise that the entire second half of the film would be a comedy with constant jokes that killed any sort of tension.

Exactly.

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The trailers promised an epic, serious, dark movie with Tony's entire world being torn apart and him facing his greatest threat. It did not promise that the entire second half of the film would be a comedy with constant jokes that killed any sort of tension.
Preach.


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I disagree that political commentary doesn't belong in an IM movie. The character was FOUNDED in politics.
I get you, but I'm not really concerned with comic accuracy as I never dug IM comics. I always found comic Stark to be a dour, unlikeable dude. RDJ made him funny and likeable to me. I really hope if he's deciding to close out his portrayal of the character, that we get an IM4 with Favreau directing.

I think the character as portrayed by RDJ deserves a solo film to go out on as well as to be lovingly laid to rest by the people that brought him to life.

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Old 08-18-2013, 09:40 AM   #980
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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*How to fix Iron Man 3*
1. Don't make it into a family friendly comedy, keep the tone and feel of IM1
1) All the MCU films are family friendly (bar maybe TIH), including IM1.

2) IM3 is tonally slightly darker than IM1, & definitely darker than Thor, Cap, IM2 & The Avengers. The fact that it's also very funny doesn't negate that.

3) Comedy is a large component of the MCU.

4) What's wrong with family friendly?

Trying to criticise IM3 for those things but liking them in the other films is nonsense. It makes you look like you want to hate the movie and are tyring to twist every aspect of it around to achieve that goal.

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2. Please have less jokes in it, it ruins the serious moments.
That's the only one I'll give you, & even then just barely.

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3. Remove jokes about Dora The Explorer and Downtown Abbey and I don't need to explain that.
Well, yeah, if you going to try to "fix" it, you'll need to explain why you can't crack a pop culture joke. That notion is just silly.

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4. Don't make it feel like a buddy cop film at times because it's an Iron Man film.
How dare they naturally involve and develope Rhodey's character and established friendship with Stark through showing he is actually a badass military.

It didn't change the fact the films focus was Stark, so again, why not? Stylistically it also brings something fresh to the superhero genre.

And again, this just makes it look like you're trying to hate the movie.

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5. Don't turn your bad guy into a joke
At no point in the film was The Mandarin played as a joke. The reveal that Trevor isn't The Mandarin was played for laughs, but other than that no, he was no joke.

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6. If your going to do the twist do it sooner and have Killain look like him and give him the rings.
That doesn't even make any sense. A twist needs a build up to work, any earlier and there is none.

Having Killian swanning around in robes (at the same time as Trevor, or at all) completely ignores everything the character of Killian is about & his arc in the film.

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7. Use Extremis (is that how you spell it?) better, i.e Have Tony's armor upgrade to it but this is rather minor and perhaps something I would personally like to see.
That's not how Extremis works in the film, it's for people not machines. Unless you mean Tony should have upgraded his armour to fight the Extremis soldiers, in which case he didn't exactly have time to do that.

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8. Having Tony get panic attacks during about New York isn't exploring his character.
Crystal clear proof that you're deliberately being obtuse & obstinate, & going out of your way to hate the film.

Tony having panic attacks at all as a result of what happened in New York is definitively character developement. Something happened to the character & the character changes (AKA, developes) directly because of it.

But they don't leave it there, they make it the main arc of the movie - "Does the suit make the man or does the man make the suit". Him going from doubting himself & feeling like he's inadequate in light of what's out there, thinking that he's "just a man in a can", feverishly building suits for any situation he can think of - to realising that the suit doesn't make him Iron Man, that it's his mind that makes him Iron Man, that his mind is his "superpower" and the suits are just tools he created as a means to an end.

The film underscores this by putting several others in a suit, Pepper, Rhodey, Savin & the POTUS, along with having dozens of empty droid suits joining in, but none of them are Iron Man, that title is for Stark alone.

Which brings up another bull$#!t criticism I've seen around here - "Not enough Iron Man action". Anyone saying this wasn't paying attention & missed the entire piont of the film.

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9. Don't put a child in it...
Because including a child in the supporting cast automatically make a movie bad & "family friendly" (read: "Bad", again.)

The kid actually had a purpose in the film, he was part of Starks realisation. "You're a mechanic right? So, build something".

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The last and most important step of all...
10. Hire someone who can direct a decent comic book flick that sticks to the source material and kick Shane Black in the stomach on the way out.
*Yawn* Do you have anything interesting to say? You're boring the hole off me.

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Old 08-18-2013, 10:33 AM   #981
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Excellent points, Mordin. Couldn't have said it better myself. It's pretty much useless though, RedBlueWonder/Giveyourself12%, & Loki are set to hate the movie.

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Old 08-18-2013, 10:51 AM   #982
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

When did I say I hated the movie? I'm pretty sure that I made it clear that I didn't. However, that doesn't mean that people shouldn't point out what they didn't like about the movie. Sorry, but you negate your argument when you dismiss ANY criticism as simply "hating the movie." EVERY time there was a potential serious moment in the second half that had some tension, they killed it by making yet another joke. IM 2 and TA had comedy, but they knew when to take things seriously as well.

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Old 08-18-2013, 11:45 AM   #983
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I don't hate IM3, I just think it's bad. I find it odd how people were saying that the mandarin would be the next joker but look at the poll.

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Old 08-18-2013, 11:59 AM   #984
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Again the problem with Mandarin is, for all this talk about how iconic he is, he usually inconsistently written, with different writers giving him different motives and a different personality each time. How can he be Stark's arch nemesis, when he doesn't even have a consistent personality? Again people say Mandarin is iconic, but only as an archetype, not as an actual characters with well defined motives. I would be more upset with what they did with Mandarin in the movie, if I didn't think Mandarin was an outdated archetype with very little in the way of consistent personality.

I am not saying Killian is a great villain, but really neither is comic book Mandarin for the most part.
Magneto was very lame in his early appearances, his personality is changes constantly from angry hater to more simpathetic like the films version. And what about the Joker, he too has changed a lot, and there are multiple versions of the character.

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Old 08-18-2013, 01:25 PM   #985
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Lex Luthor's personality/motivations have also changed drastically over the decades, yet he is still clearly Superman's greatest foe.

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Old 08-18-2013, 05:25 PM   #986
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Thing is Lex Luthor is an iconic villain.

The only thing that really defined the Mandarin in the comics was he had magic alien rings and looked like Fu Manchu.

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Old 08-18-2013, 06:18 PM   #987
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Magneto was very lame in his early appearances, his personality is changes constantly from angry hater to more simpathetic like the films version. And what about the Joker, he too has changed a lot, and there are multiple versions of the character.
Except Magneto has a consistent motives, he sees mutants as an oppressed, yet superior minority to humans, so he is fighting for their rights and restoring their natural place in the world, that motive has been the same, even if other things have changed.

Why does the Mandarin want to take the world, his motive seem to change each time a new writer gets ahold of him? Magneto is a far more consistent character then Mandarin is.

Plus nowadays, Joker usually gets written the same way, I haven't seen many modern writers break Joker out the monstrous serial killer phase.

Sure most comic book characters are going to be a little inconsistent, but when the character is so inconsistent he doesn't seem to have a core personality or motives, that's a problem and that's how Mandarin is written.

Plus Joker and Magneto just have far more interesting dynamics with their chosen enemies then Mandarin does for Iron Man? How does their dynamic go beyond the usual stock hero and stock villain dynamic?

How is that, that most of Iron Man's great stories don't feature the Mandarin at all? How many truly great Mandarin stories have there been, that one written by Knauf is all I can think of and that one was ignored by Fracation. Really Joker and Magneto just have better stories then Mandarin.


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Old 08-18-2013, 06:45 PM   #988
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

They missed an opportunity to make an iconic villain. I don't care that the trailers lied, The Mandarin we saw at the start I felt was much more menacing than what we got.

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Old 08-19-2013, 01:22 AM   #989
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Guy Pearce seemed pretty menacing to me when he was half on fire, screaming "I am the Mandarin!" and ripping apart Tony's armor with his bare hands.

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Old 08-19-2013, 02:41 AM   #990
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Guy Pearce seemed pretty menacing to me when he was half on fire, screaming "I am the Mandarin!" and ripping apart Tony's armor with his bare hands.
I thought so as well.

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Old 08-19-2013, 02:54 AM   #991
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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They missed an opportunity to make an iconic villain.
Agreed!

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Old 08-19-2013, 05:19 AM   #992
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Guy Pearce seemed pretty menacing to me when he was half on fire, screaming "I am the Mandarin!" and ripping apart Tony's armor with his bare hands.
For me, when Pepper kills him it kinda ruined part of what made him menacing. another joke that ruined the seriousness.

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Old 08-19-2013, 05:46 AM   #993
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I never thought he had really died, i mean, Tony put a suit on him and exploded with him, i didn't think he was dead for the count. But knowing them he's probably dead and they'll move on -.-

For me the most interesting part of the original Mandarin was super terrorismo and his reasons for doing what he does, from the trailers and all that it seemed like we would get an amazing revelation that could change our beliefs of what is the right side.

But i guess that type of political comentary isn't as interesting as yet another white man in business suit who's definitelly the villain

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Old 08-19-2013, 08:38 AM   #994
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Excellent points, Mordin. Couldn't have said it better myself. It's pretty much useless though, RedBlueWonder/Giveyourself12%, & Loki are set to hate the movie.
Could you explain in further detail what you mean by "set to hate the movie"? As in, "They've decided they need a movie to hate and picked IM3?"

If that's the case, let me assure you, I do not enjoy hating movies. I would much rather come away as having been ridiculously entertained by everything I watch/listen to.

Just to enlighten you a bit about my stance regarding IM3, I was actually set to love this movie. I believe I annoyed my family quite a bit by how I couldn't stop talking about it before it came out. I downloaded every image I could find related to the movie, and still have IM3 as my tablet wallpaper.


Shane Black could not have had a more eager audience member waiting to see his film.


As I sat in the darkened theater on pins and needles, waiting with unbelievable anticipation we come to, "here's the story...about a little guy...that lives in a blue world...", my sister and I looked at each other like, "What are they doing?" The first of MANY what-are-they-doing looks we exchanged during the course of the film.

For me this movie was just a train wreck regarding everything I was expecting versus what I got.

Believe me, I wanted to love this movie. Bad. I've actually read that same statement in published reviews of IM3, so I know I'm not alone in having built up MASSIVE good will about this film before its release.

I still haven't given up on it. I'm doing my own edit when the blu ray is released to try and salvage some enjoyment from the third installment of what has become, for good or ill, one of my favorite cinematic characters.

Let me reiterate: I wanted to love this movie.

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Old 08-19-2013, 11:17 AM   #995
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Except Magneto has a consistent motives, he sees mutants as an oppressed, yet superior minority to humans, so he is fighting for their rights and restoring their natural place in the world, that motive has been the same, even if other things have changed.

Why does the Mandarin want to take the world, his motive seem to change each time a new writer gets ahold of him? Magneto is a far more consistent character then Mandarin is.

Plus nowadays, Joker usually gets written the same way, I haven't seen many modern writers break Joker out the monstrous serial killer phase.

Sure most comic book characters are going to be a little inconsistent, but when the character is so inconsistent he doesn't seem to have a core personality or motives, that's a problem and that's how Mandarin is written.

Plus Joker and Magneto just have far more interesting dynamics with their chosen enemies then Mandarin does for Iron Man? How does their dynamic go beyond the usual stock hero and stock villain dynamic?

How is that, that most of Iron Man's great stories don't feature the Mandarin at all? How many truly great Mandarin stories have there been, that one written by Knauf is all I can think of and that one was ignored by Fracation. Really Joker and Magneto just have better stories then Mandarin.
I agree with you in the aspect that the Mandarin from the comics has had many different writers with different interpretations of the character, & I agree that he has not always had the greatest stories associated with his character. So, with that said I really had no problem with Marvel going in & changing his story to suit their needs or that the movie interpretation of the character was not spot on accurate, because as you said in so many word which Mandarin from the comics is really Mandarin with so many various versions. However, even with that said I still feel there were certain consistencies about the traditional character from the comics in the form of looks (generally wearing Asian looking gowns or robes) that would have helped Marvel to identify the character to fans as being more comic accurate. Not to mention if Killian is the Mandarin he is completely missing his trademark rings of power. So, to me while Trevor may have been wearing Camouflage pants, he also was wearing a robe that helped to tie him a little more into that comic book Mandarin persona & the same thing can be said about Trevor's 10 rings. I mean sure they didn't work, but at least the trademark look of the character was somewhat recognized. Also, while I didn't find Killian to necessarily be a bad villain (as far as menacing), but after seeing Ben Kingsley as the Mandarin (before realizing he was only Trevor), I felt Killian / Mandarin comparatively fell flat & he didn't seem to be nearly as scary a villain to me. I mean the thing is I feel that Marvel & Shane Black should have known going into this movie that the Mandarin's comic stories were not the strongest & that there were many different interpretations of the character, so therefore those 2 things could be played with & changed to some degree, without upsetting fans too much. However, I also think they should have looked beyond those 2 things to find what consistencies and recognizable aspects the character did have, and to have made sure to have included these trademark features of the character for fans to feel like they ended up with a character better representing the one from the comics. In the end I really feel like they sacrificed most things resembling the traditional Mandarin character for the sake of trying to create a better story and for the opportunity to do the twist. However, I think with a little more effort they could have still had a great story, but have combined some of these missing elements of the character into the movie (with or without the twist) and not have disappointed half of their comic book fan base. Is it too much to want it all.

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Old 08-19-2013, 08:07 PM   #996
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Originally Posted by Surfer View Post
I agree with you in the aspect that the Mandarin from the comics has had many different writers with different interpretations of the character, & I agree that he has not always had the greatest stories associated with his character. So, with that said I really had no problem with Marvel going in & changing his story to suit their needs or that the movie interpretation of the character was not spot on accurate, because as you said in so many word which Mandarin from the comics is really Mandarin with so many various versions. However, even with that said I still feel there were certain consistencies about the traditional character from the comics in the form of looks (generally wearing Asian looking gowns or robes) that would have helped Marvel to identify the character to fans as being more comic accurate. Not to mention if Killian is the Mandarin he is completely missing his trademark rings of power. So, to me while Trevor may have been wearing Camouflage pants, he also was wearing a robe that helped to tie him a little more into that comic book Mandarin persona & the same thing can be said about Trevor's 10 rings. I mean sure they didn't work, but at least the trademark look of the character was somewhat recognized. Also, while I didn't find Killian to necessarily be a bad villain (as far as menacing), but after seeing Ben Kingsley as the Mandarin (before realizing he was only Trevor), I felt Killian / Mandarin comparatively fell flat & he didn't seem to be nearly as scary a villain to me. I mean the thing is I feel that Marvel & Shane Black should have known going into this movie that the Mandarin's comic stories were not the strongest & that there were many different interpretations of the character, so therefore those 2 things could be played with & changed to some degree, without upsetting fans too much. However, I also think they should have looked beyond those 2 things to find what consistencies and recognizable aspects the character did have, and to have made sure to have included these trademark features of the character for fans to feel like they ended up with a character better representing the one from the comics. In the end I really feel like they sacrificed most things resembling the traditional Mandarin character for the sake of trying to create a better story and for the opportunity to do the twist. However, I think with a little more effort they could have still had a great story, but have combined some of these missing elements of the character into the movie (with or without the twist) and not have disappointed half of their comic book fan base. Is it too much to want it all.

Surfer
If you want to avoid complaints that Mandarin is a yellow peril villain, sticking with the long robes, long nails and Fu Manchu mustache is not the way to go.

I think Mandarin is a hard sell for the general audience, because he based on an outdated archetype that most people wouldn't like and would be poison in the international market.

Every time Mandarin has been adapted into animation, he comes off very different, the 94 cartoon made him a white guy turned green, Armored Adventures made him into a sympathetic teenage book worm and the 2007 Iron Man DTV made him into Sauron from the Lord of the Rings, except for the 60s cartoon, no cartoon has presented a true to the comics version of the Mandarin. I mean, how many characters are that radically re-imaged for other media that often.

I also heard that the film makers tried to make the comic book Mandarin the villain of the first film, but apparently the story just wasn't working. So if the film makers just were not comfortable with comic book mandarin, trying to force them to use him would not be a good move.

I will agree that Killian was just an okay villain and the villain teased in the trailers had the potential to be exciting, but I think Marvel and Disney wanted to play things safe and not go with a villain that they had trouble adapting in the past and may have a tough selling point to both a local and international audience.

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Old 08-19-2013, 09:44 PM   #997
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

They could have had the Mandarin masquerade as a legitimate Chinese businessman or politician (fancy suits and all) while secretly being this terrorist mastermind with the more traditional outfit. They could have eased China's complaints by having Chinese officials provide key information/help to Tony that he uses to take down the Mandarin. Heck, they could have made Kingsley into the Col. Kurtz-like figure that they mentioned in interviews. Anything but turning him into a joke and having he villain be another corrupt while corporate douchebag.

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Old 08-20-2013, 05:52 AM   #998
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I loved it. I laughed my arse off. Not what I was expecting but I like to be surprised when watching a film. I can usually guess how a film might turn out. But in this case I didn't and that's one of the reasons why I enjoy the twist so much.

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Old 08-27-2013, 01:35 PM   #999
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I thought it was a great twist and from what I can tell most people didn't mind it save for a few hardcore comic geeks. (and I don't say geek in a bad way. i'm a geek too)

I thought it was actually a well done execution...it really showed the intelligence of the bad guy by having him make everyone chase his illusion rather then himself.

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Old 09-19-2013, 02:02 AM   #1000
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I was irritated with the twist at first, but still liked the film overall. Since then, the twist has actually grown on me.

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