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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:51 PM   #126
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Well no one is confusing Mandarin as having the same stature that Lex Luthor or the Joker enjoy, that's for sure. But in terms of IM, I think Mandarin does share enough of that doppelganger quality to make him an interesting foil. As far as racism goes though, almost every character created during the 60-70s is somewhat racist. Black Panther, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, you name it, there's probably some sort of racial undertone present. But speaking of the undertones, why then, would Killian create & then adopt a name of such Asian descent in this new contemporary vision of the character? They could've just called him something else entirely and all problems are solved.
There are a lot of villains created in that era that were not racial stereotypes.

But isn't a good question to ask why Mandarin doesn't have the same stature as other major villains?

But how often has Mandarin's supposed nature as Tony's foil really translated into great stories? Like I said, despite claims that Mandarin is Tony's natural foil, a lot of the truly iconic Iron Man stories don't even feature him, so I question how much of an iconic arch nemesis when he isn't even featured in a lot of the iconic Iron Man stories. Seems like a disconnect to me. He seems more like a archetype then a character, from the way you describe him and that archetype is dated. That is the character's problem, he comes off as dated archetype, so a lot of writers don't want to use him, so he doesn't get featured in important stories. This has been a problem since the 80s, there is a problem when Iron Man's supposedly most iconic villain, is not featured in the character's most iconic run. You have described an idea, but how much chemistry does he really have Iron Man, it seems like both of the Stanes have done more to hurt Iron Man then Mandarin ever has. Does Mandarin even have a good motive for being a villain in the first place? What is so great about Mandarin as a character?

Also I assume that Shane Black out the fake Mandarin to have a mystery story, where Tony has to use his head and find the real villain, so he was the iconography of the Mandarin to fake both the audience and Tony out.

To be fair Black Panther was the first non stereotype black character introduced in comics, it may not seem like a big deal now, but it was back then. Really black Panther was not stereotype, certainly not compared to Mandarin in the 60s. The problem is Mandarin is a 30s style character introduced in the 60s, so by the 80s he seemed really dated.


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That's the thing, they were well on their way to reinventing him for present times. Re-imagining him as a terrorist of indiscriminate origin, while still being reminiscent of his comic appearance somewhat, was genius. And the crux of his dichotomy with Stark would still be intact.
Perhaps, but I don't Shane Black character peroid, so making Shane Black put the character in wouldn't have been a good idea, if he didn't like him.

Trying make a director use a character doesn't like doesn't make for good movies.


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Old 05-07-2013, 09:35 PM   #127
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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There are a lot of villains created in that era that were not racial stereotypes.

But isn't a good question to ask why Mandarin doesn't have the same stature as other major villains?

But how often has Mandarin's supposed nature as Tony's foil really translated into great stories? Like I said, despite claims that Mandarin is Tony's natural foil, a lot of the truly iconic Iron Man stories don't even feature him, so I question how much of an iconic arch nemesis when he isn't even featured in a lot of the iconic Iron Man stories. Seems like a disconnect to me. He seems more like a arch type then a character, from the way you describe him and that archetype is dated. That is the character's problem, he comes off as dated archetype, so a lot of writers don't want to use him, so he doesn't get featured in important stories. This has been a problem since the 80s, there is a problem when Iron Man's supposedly most iconic villain, is not featured in the character's most iconic run. You have described an idea, but how much chemistry does he really have Iron Man, it seems like both of the Stanes have done more to hurt Iron Man then Mandarin ever has. Does Mandarin even have a good motive for being a villain in the first place? What is so great about Mandarin as a character?

Also I assume that Shane Black out the fake Mandarin to have a mystery story, where Tony has to use his head and find the real villain, so he was the iconography of the Mandarin to fake both the audience and Tony out.

To be fair Black Panther was the first non stereotype black character introduced in comics, it may not seem like a big deal now, but it was back then. Really black Panther was not stereotype, certainly not compared to Mandarin in the 60s. The problem is Mandarin is a 30s style character introduced in the 60s, so by the 80s he seemed really dated.




Perhaps, but I don't Shane Black character peroid, so making Shane Black put the character in wouldn't have been a good idea, if he didn't like him.

Trying make a director use a character doesn't like doesn't make for good movies.
Black Panther was an African Stereotype.

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Old 05-07-2013, 09:46 PM   #128
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Black Panther was an African Stereotype.
a super intelligent black man from an unconquered, high tech part of Africa...I don't think he's a stereotype.

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Old 05-07-2013, 09:57 PM   #129
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Black Panther was an African Stereotype.
How so? I think the fact that Black Panther was presented as an intellectual, someone smart enough to give the FF run for their money and have a country with advanced tech, is certainly different from the usual primitive tribal stereotypes. Plus Black Panther was not drawn in a racially stereotypical manner, while Mandarin was drawn like that sometimes in the 60s.

I think the African American community generally like Black Panther, can you say the same about Asian Americans and the Mandarin? The fact that Black Panther is a hero means he is less likely to be stereotyped then a villain like Mandarin, you are supposed to have a positive outlook on heroes compared to villains.

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Old 05-07-2013, 11:07 PM   #130
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

The comic version of Mandarin is silly and outdated, but I don't think this thread is about people loving or hating that Mandarin. Anyone who wanted or expected a stereotypical Chinese Mandarin with a fu manchu mustache and long fingernails..... is kinda weird.

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Old 05-07-2013, 11:29 PM   #131
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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The comic version of Mandarin is silly and outdated, but I don't think this thread is about people loving or hating that Mandarin. Anyone who wanted or expected a stereotypical Chinese Mandarin with a fu manchu mustache and long fingernails..... is kinda weird.
I think the problem I have is people say Mandarin is this iconic arch nemesis of Iron Man, but that doesn't seem to play out very well in the stories. Mandarin doesn't appear in most of the iconic Iron Man stories, for a supposed perfect foil for Iron Man, you think he would appear more iconic stories.

He seems more like an archetype then a character and now that the archetype is dated, there isn't much left for the character.

Its not just that he is outdated, he is not very consistently written, I don't see any really strong motives for why he is a super villain or why he wants to take over the world.

Mandarin doesn't have the same level of writing most of the other arch nemesis villains have, Red Skull, Dr. Doom and Magneto have all gotten in depth mini series on their origins, for example. Mandarin and Iron Man just doesn't seem to have the same of chemistry that most super heroes and arch enemies have in the comics. It doesn't seem like Mandarin ever did anything to Iron Man personally, they don't have a shared back story and I don't see why Iron Man should see as an arch enemy, instead of just another villain. It seems like Mandarin wanted to take over the world one day and Iron Man decided to stop him, its not like there was some huge build up in their confrontation. Mandarin just shows up one day and Iron Man stops him. I think an arch nemesis needs more to him then that.

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Old 05-07-2013, 11:44 PM   #132
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I think the problem with condemning the original Mandarin as a racial stereotype that should never be used in modern stories is that it is somewhat offensive to the man who created the character.

To say The Mandarin is a racist caricature is essentially to call Stan Lee a racist. And if there was one white man in the 1960s who did more for how men and women of ethnic background were presented in fiction (at the very least in comics) I dont know who it was. Stan Lee invented Black Panther and The Falcon at a time when people were literally killing each other over civil liberties based on skin color. But more specifically Stan Lee created the X-Men. And I truly believe that it was stories like X-Men that helped the youth in the 60s, 70s and 80s break out of the racist norms of their parents and elders.

Stan Lee made many evil characters, and many of them were of a different race. But if you think there was any malicious intent behind The Mandarin's invention... I'd say you should rethink that.

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Old 05-07-2013, 11:57 PM   #133
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

People have to remember it was a different time as well.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:01 AM   #134
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

And they have to remember that The Mandarin has been updated. He no longer had bad teeth, his facial hair is substantially more conforming, he often wears business attire and his hair and fingernails are very obviously clean and well-kempt.

He's seen as Tony's intellectual equal now, his motives generally go beyond any "yellow-peril" type concerns people are referring to. The fact that he is Chinese is about as relevant these days as Nick Fury being black. That is to say, it is irrelevant.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:04 AM   #135
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Just asking a question because I really don't have a clue about the Mandarin but what exactly are people saying is racist about him? Why can a character like Shang Tsung be acceptable by the general audience but an "asian" or rather "Chinese" Mandarin not?

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:05 AM   #136
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

lol, pr0xyt0xin just answered my question.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:09 AM   #137
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I think the problem with condemning the original Mandarin as a racial stereotype that should never be used in modern stories is that it is somewhat offensive to the man who created the character.

To say The Mandarin is a racist caricature is essentially to call Stan Lee a racist. And if there was one white man in the 1960s who did more for how men and women of ethnic background were presented in fiction (at the very least in comics) I dont know who it was. Stan Lee invented Black Panther and The Falcon at a time when people were killing each other over civil liberties based on skin color. But more specifically Stan Lee created the X-Men. And I Truly believe that it was stories like X-Men that helped the youth in the 60s, 70s and 80s break out of the racist norms of their parents.

Stan Lee made many evil characters, and many of them were of a different race. But if you think there was any malicious intent behind The Mandarin's invention... I'd say you should rethink that.
No offense, it seems like you are being defensive here, trying to suggest that I am somehow trying slander Stan Lee, just because I am criticizing one of his characters. Lets stick to the facts rather then engaging in insinuations.

I don't think Stan Lee is a racist, but I think the Mandarin is a product of a bygone era. I think Stan Lee grew up reading old pulp novels featuring characters like Fu Manchu and so he decided to create such a character in an Iron Man comic. So I don't think its malicious intent, but he has created a character isn't as a timeless as say Dr. Doom. If Mandarin is so great, why didn't he get featured in the David Michelinie run that reinvented Iron Man back in the 80s? But I don't think a modern Asian audience would appreciate how is written and drawn back in the 60s. Its just that he was an "evil" character, when you have using kung fu to damage Iron Man's armor, that seems pretty stereotypical and how many positive Asian characters were to counter balance the mandarin in Iron Man comics? The dialogue was pretty stereotypical too, the name didn't help either, so instead of being a bad guy who just happens to be Asian, he is the Asian bad guy, that is the problem. Do you really think Asian would have liked the Mandarin as he is often presented in the comics?

I think trying to use a Fu Manchu style pulp character in a modern movie wouldn't have worked, so what are you suggesting? Because in the first half of the movie, he was just spouting vague, anti American cliches, they were kinda fun, but if that is all there was to him, I don't think he would have been that great of a villain, he would have needed more of a deeper motive then that.

If Mandarin is so iconic, why does he not get used for a long period, is not consistently written and writers still seem to struggle with him? Why is he absent from so many of Iron Man's most iconic stories?

What is so interesting about his personality, why is he a villain, why does he want to take over the world? Again he seems more like a archetype then a character and the archetype is now dated. I just don't see how Mandarin is supposed to be Iron Man's arch nemesis when they don't seem to have any special chemistry or anything. It seems like every writer has a widely different take on him, so Knauf writers him as a Ra's Al Ghul style villain, while Fraction writes him as Kim Jong Il stand in, which is both different from how he is written in the Silver Age or in the 80s or 70s.

Mandarin has more then one problem, not only does he have fairly stereotypical origins, but is not very well defined as a character, he doesn't have the same level of writing that Dr. Doom or Magneto has, it seems like a lot of writers struggle to use him in modern times.


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Old 05-08-2013, 12:27 AM   #138
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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No offense, it seems like you are being defensive here, trying to suggest that I am somehow trying slander Stan Lee, just because I am criticizing one of his characters. Lets stick to the facts rather then engaging in insinuations.

I don't think Stan Lee is a racist, but I think the Mandarin is a product of a bygone era. I think Stan Lee grew up reading old pulp novels featuring characters like Fu Manchu and so he decided to create such a character in an Iron Man comic. So I don't think its malicious intent, but he has created a character isn't as a timeless as say Dr. Doom. If Mandarin is so great, why didn't he get featured in the David Michelinie run that reinvented Iron Man back in the 80s? But I don't think a modern Asian audience would appreciate how is written and drawn back in the 60s. Its just that he was an "evil" character, when you have using kung fu to damage Iron Man's armor, that seems pretty stereotypical and how many positive Asian characters were to counter balance the mandarin in Iron Man comics? The dialogue was pretty stereotypical too, the name didn't help either, so instead of being a bad guy who just happens to be Asian, he is the Asian bad guy, that is the problem. Do you really think Asian would have liked the Mandarin as he is often presented in the comics?

I think trying to use a Fu Manchu style pulp character in a modern movie wouldn't have worked, so what are you suggesting? Because in the first half of the movie, he was just spouting vague, anti American cliches, they were kinda fun, but if that is all there was to him, I don't think he would have been that great of a villain, he would have needed more of a deeper motive then that.

If Mandarin is so iconic, why does he not get used for a long period, is not consistently written and writers still seem to struggle with him? Why is he absent from so many of Iron Man's most iconic stories?

What is so interesting about his personality, why is he a villain, why does he want to take over the world? Again he seems more like a archetype then a character and the archetype is now dated. I just don't see how Mandarin is supposed to be Iron Man's arch nemesis when they don't seem to have any special chemistry or anything. It seems like every writer has a widely different take on him, so Knauf writers him as a Ra's Al Ghul style villain, while Fraction writes him as Kim Jong Il stand in, which is both different from how he is written in the Silver Age or in the 80s or 70s.

Mandarin has more then one problem, not only does he have fairly stereotypical origins, but is not very well defined as a character, he doesn't have the same level of writing that Dr. Doom or Magneto has, it seems like a lot of writers struggle to use him in modern times.
No offense taken. Mostly because I wasn't talking directly to you, in fact I dont even know what you said last. That being said, I was just throwing out my opinions that Stan Lee deserves some credit as a progressive writer and possibly even an advocate of civil liberties. And I do feel a bit defensive that people say this character was racist from the start when racism was almost definitely not Stan Lee's intent.

Now, I'm part of the camp that didn't care about the The Mandarin's race on screen, but just wanted to see Tony Stark have his "arch-nemesis" adapted on screen. Even if "arch-nemesis" doesnt describe The Mandarin very well. Iron Man still deserved a strong iconic villain and it seemed they were half way there in the trailers.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:29 AM   #139
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Proxytoxin you said to call Mandarin racist is to call Stan Lee racist. That's ludicrous logic. Lee wasn't racist, but it was the 60's and people (even non-racist people) held stereotypes of other cultures that were either grossly exaggerated or just plain untrue. That wasn't out of malice or hate, but out of ignorance. So Lee wasn't racist. But he obviously held stereotypes of Chinese culture that were common at the time, but seem offensive and dated now.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:41 AM   #140
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I find it funny that people seem to think that Kingsley's character, had he been real, would have been a faithful adaptation and that Killiandarin is not.

(1)The Mandarin the comics is a one-man version of the military industrial complex, a ruler who spends all his kingdom's money turning himself into a person of mass destruction, a science and martial arts super-soldier. He basically spends the entire budget on the military, it's just he's the entire military. In the end his fiefdom is too broke to even pay taxes.

Is Kingsley's character, even if he had been a real, this? No, he's a terrorist, he's actually the opposite of the military industrial complex. In fact some of the things he says makes him out to be a victim of the military industrial complex, essentially their Magneto.

(2)The Mandarin is a mad scientist.

Is Kingsley's character, even if he had been real, a mad scientist? No, he's a terrorist.

(3)The Mandarin possesses superhuman martial arts abilities, the most common example of which is the ability to karate-chop chunks off of the Iron Man armor, and generally physically enhancing himself with chi. As corollary to this, he's extremely athletic.

Is Kingsley's character a superhuman martial artist? No, even if he were real, he's still a weak old man, entirely dependent on his organization to do anything physical of consequence.

(4)The Mandarin often schemes to cause world war III so he can benefit from everyone being at war with everyone else.

Is Kingsley's character, even if he were real, trying to get everyone to go to war with everyone else? No, he's at war with America himself. He seems to want some vague terrorist goal, it's never spelled out, but his bitter victim speeches imply he wants something comparable to America and Israel completely withdrawing from Palestine, something comparable to that if not literally that. Basically he wants peace to follow some anti-american political goal succeeding.

Kingsley's character fails The Mandarin test, and would have failed it even if he really was what he appeared to be early on.

Now let's try that again with Killian.

(1)The Mandarin the comics is a one-man version of the military industrial complex, a ruler who spends all his kingdom's money turning himself into a person of mass destruction, a science and martial arts super-soldier. He basically spends the entire budget on the military, it's just he's the entire military. In the end his fiefdom is too broke to even pay taxes.

Is Killian a one-man version of the military industrial complex? He's a member of the military industrial complex, he embodies the corruption of the military industrial complex to the point of caricature. He's using taxpayer money to turn himself into a super-soldier, and it's part of a scheme to get America spending even more money on his super-soldier program. While it may not literally make America flat broke by itself, his scheme is a massive example, a caricatured example, of the corrupt and bloated military spending that is causing America such budget problems.

(2)The Mandarin is a mad scientist.
Is Killian a Mad Scientist? Yup. It's right there from the moment he pops up.

(3)The Mandarin possesses superhuman martial arts abilities, the most common example of which is the ability to karate-chop chunks off of the Iron Man armor, and generally physically enhancing himself with chi. As corollary to this, he's extremely athletic.

Is Killian a superhuman martial artist? Welllll, yes and no. He's not literally superhumanly skilled, but he's superhuman and he uses karate-chops to chop the leg off one armor and chop another armor in half. He's not the Chi-channeling mystic monster comic Mandarin is, but for a simplified movie character he's fairly close. He's also played by a guy who is fairly tall and athletic, the star of several action-movies.

(4)The Mandarin often schemes to cause world war III so he can benefit from everyone being at war with everyone else.

Is Killian scheming to cause World War III so he can benefit from everyone being a war with everyone else? Yes and no, but mostly yes. He's scheming to control and render permanent the war on terror, which is to the modern world was World War III was to the 60's.

Killian passes The Mandarin test, or at the very least comes very close for simplified 2013 movie character. He certainly comes much closer than Kingsley's character, who would fail utterly even if he were not a fraud.

Additionally, there are little hints that he's the Mandarin. For example, he has buck-teeth in his first appearance, and basically looks like a white version of the old asian stereotype. In his videos of him doing extremis experiments, he looks a lot like the Knaufs version of Mandarin, again other than race. And his modern appearance owes a lot to Fraction-era Mandarin.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:44 AM   #141
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Proxytoxin you said to call Mandarin racist is to call Stan Lee racist. That's ludicrous logic. Lee wasn't racist, but it was the 60's and people (even non-racist people) held stereotypes of other cultures that were either grossly exaggerated or just plain untrue. That wasn't out of malice or hate, but out of ignorance. So Lee wasn't racist. But he obviously held stereotypes of Chinese culture that were common at the time, but seem offensive and dated now.
Lee wasn't racist but he was ignorant?

Ignorance in this matter is racism. If you are ignorant of the culture of another race and you only acknowledge one possible personage of that ethnicity, you are being racist. I don't believe there was such a thing as non-racist people in the 60s. Now granted I wasn't there. But I don't believe there's such a thing as non-racist people today. If you acknowledge a difference between two races, thats racism (imo).

My point was that Stan Lee, while likely being raised by racists and around racists, made many strides toward remedying the wrongs done by racism. I won't say then, that The Mandarin was "his one mistake and he should be allowed a pass." No, what I am saying is that there was no malicious intent in Stan Lee's mind.

It's like making an evil American white man. Fat, ugly, balding, badly dressed, probably flatulent and steals others' ideas and calls them his own.


I think more than a Chinese stereotype, Stan Lee is guilty of typecasting ugly (inside and out) villains. So, by that formula, if Stan Lee was to ever make a Chinese villain, that Chinese villain was bound to be ugly, rude and unhygienic. Not because he was Chinese, but because he was a villain.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:49 AM   #142
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I find it funny that people seem to think that Kingsley's character, had he been real, would have been a faithful adaptation and that Killiandarin is not.

(1)The Mandarin the comics is a one-man version of the military industrial complex, a ruler who spends all his kingdom's money turning himself into a person of mass destruction, a science and martial arts super-soldier. He basically spends the entire budget on the military, it's just he's the entire military. In the end his fiefdom is too broke to even pay taxes.

Is Kingsley's character, even if he had been a real, this? No, he's a terrorist, he's actually the opposite of the military industrial complex. In fact some of the things he says makes him out to be a victim of the military industrial complex, essentially their Magneto.

(2)The Mandarin is a mad scientist.

Is Kingsley's character, even if he had been real, a mad scientist? No, he's a terrorist.

(3)The Mandarin possesses superhuman martial arts abilities, the most common example of which is the ability to karate-chop chunks off of the Iron Man armor, and generally physically enhancing himself with chi. As corollary to this, he's extremely athletic.

Is Kingsley's character a superhuman martial artist? No, even if he were real, he's still a weak old man, entirely dependent on his organization to do anything physical of consequence.

(4)The Mandarin often schemes to cause world war III so he can benefit from everyone being at war with everyone else.

Is Kingsley's character, even if he were real, trying to get everyone to go to war with everyone else? No, he's at war with America himself. He seems to want some vague terrorist goal, it's never spelled out, but his bitter victim speeches imply he wants something comparable to America and Israel completely withdrawing from Palestine, something comparable to that if not literally that. Basically he wants peace to follow some anti-american political goal succeeding.

Kingsley's character fails The Mandarin test, and would have failed it even if he really was what he appeared to be early on.

Now let's try that again with Killian.

(1)The Mandarin the comics is a one-man version of the military industrial complex, a ruler who spends all his kingdom's money turning himself into a person of mass destruction, a science and martial arts super-soldier. He basically spends the entire budget on the military, it's just he's the entire military. In the end his fiefdom is too broke to even pay taxes.

Is Killian a one-man version of the military industrial complex? He's a member of the military industrial complex, he embodies the corruption of the military industrial complex to the point of caricature. He's using taxpayer money to turn himself into a super-soldier, and it's part of a scheme to get America spending even more money on his super-soldier program. While it may not literally make America flat broke by itself, his scheme is a massive example, a caricatured example, of the corrupt and bloated military spending that is causing America such budget problems.

(2)The Mandarin is a mad scientist.
Is Killian a Mad Scientist? Yup. It's right there from the moment he pops up.

(3)The Mandarin possesses superhuman martial arts abilities, the most common example of which is the ability to karate-chop chunks off of the Iron Man armor, and generally physically enhancing himself with chi. As corollary to this, he's extremely athletic.

Is Killian a superhuman martial artist? Welllll, yes and no. He's not literally superhumanly skilled, but he's superhuman and he uses karate-chops to chop the leg off one armor and chop another armor in half. He's not the Chi-channeling mystic monster comic Mandarin is, but for a simplified movie character he's fairly close. He's also played by a guy who is fairly tall and athletic, the star of several action-movies.

(4)The Mandarin often schemes to cause world war III so he can benefit from everyone being at war with everyone else.

Is Killian scheming to cause World War III so he can benefit from everyone being a war with everyone else? Yes and no, but mostly yes. He's scheming to control and render permanent the war on terror, which is to the modern world was World War III was to the 60's.

Killian passes The Mandarin test, or at the very least comes very close for simplified 2013 movie character. He certainly comes much closer than Kingsley's character, who would fail utterly even if he were not a fraud.

Additionally, there are little hints that he's the Mandarin. For example, he has buck-teeth in his first appearance, and basically looks like a white version of the old asian stereotype. In his videos of him doing extremis experiments, he looks a lot like the Knaufs version of Mandarin, again other than race. And his modern appearance owes a lot to Fraction-era Mandarin.
I'm not going through your list point for point, because lets face it, I just don't want to. But it sounds like by your logic, this wouldve been an okay substitute for The Joker:


Charles Manson, homicidal criminal mastermind, highly intelligent, anarchistic, known for theatricality and his powers of coercion. Also, as a bonus, always has a creepy grin.

Does it matter that The Joker wears a purple suit? Has green hair? Powder white skin?

In my opinion... kinda.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:51 AM   #143
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No offense taken. Mostly because I wasn't talking directly to you, in fact I dont even know what you said last. That being said, I was just throwing out my opinions that Stan Lee deserves some credit as a progressive writer and possibly even an advocate of civil liberties. And I do feel a bit defensive that people say this character was racist from the start when racism was almost definitely not Stan Lee's intent.

Now, I'm part of the camp that didn't care about the The Mandarin's race on screen, but just wanted to see Tony Stark have his "arch-nemesis" adapted on screen. Even if "arch-nemesis" doesnt describe The Mandarin very well. Iron Man still deserved a strong iconic villain and it seemed they were half way there in the trailers.
But if Shane Black doesn't like the character, would forcing him to use the Mandarin have produced a good movie? It seems like we had Venom from Spider-Man 3 all over again.

Personally the reason why I don't have a huge problem with the twist, is because I find Mandarin in the comics is a archetype rather then a character and the archetype is somewhat dated at this point. If I felt if Mandarin was more defined in the comics, I would have more problems with it. I can feel for long time fans who were disappointed the Mandarin twist, but for me Mandarin was not well defined enough in the comics to be really bothered by it.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:59 AM   #144
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But if Shane Black doesn't like the character, would forcing him to use the Mandarin have produced a good movie? It seems like we had Venom from Spider-Man 3 all over again.
To answer this question, no. But I am less interested in Shane Black's method of adapting a character (turning them into a joke and a twist). And more interested in directors who can take the source material and magically transform it into a fantastic adaption that probably outlives the source material itself.

[see: Richard Donner/Terrence Stamp's Zod, Christopher Nolan/Tom Hardy's Bane, etc.]

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Personally the reason why I don't have a huge problem with the twist, is because I find Mandarin in the comics is a archetype rather then a character and the archetype is somewhat dated at this point. If I felt if Mandarin was more defined in the comics, I would have more problems with it. I can feel for long time fans who were disappointed the Mandarin twist, but for me Mandarin was not well defined enough in the comics to be really bothered by it.
Personally, while I have a problem with the twist, I'm able to see past it and acknowledge the film as a quality comic book movie. I am also a sucker for (any and all) potential. And excited for the day someone actually does magically turn The Mandarin into a likable, respectful, faithful adaptation. They were so close this time after all!

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Old 05-08-2013, 01:02 AM   #145
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Lee wasn't racist but he was ignorant?
Yes.

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Ignorance in this matter is racism. If you are ignorant of the culture of another race and you only acknowledge one possible personage of that ethnicity, you are being racist. I don't believe there was such a thing as non-racist people in the 60s. Now granted I wasn't there. But I don't believe there's such a thing as non-racist people today. If you acknowledge a difference between two races, thats racism (imo).
That's an extremely broad view and one the vast majority of people don't agree with.

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My point was that Stan Lee, while likely being raised by racists and around racists, made many strides toward remedying the wrongs done by racism. I won't say then, that The Mandarin was "his one mistake and he should be allowed a pass." No, what I am saying is that there was no malicious intent in Stan Lee's mind.
Okay, so we agree here. Except for the part about "being raised by racists." I doubt you know Stan's parents that well to make that kind of conclusion.

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It's like making an evil American white man. Fat, ugly, balding, badly dressed, probably flatulent and steals others' ideas and calls them his own.


I think more than a Chinese stereotype, Stan Lee is guilty of typecasting ugly (inside and out) villains. So, by that formula, if Stan Lee was to ever make a Chinese villain, that Chinese villain was bound to be ugly, rude and unhygienic. Not because he was Chinese, but because he was a villain.
But his evil nature was exhibited and personified through Chinese stereotypes. Dr Egghead didn't wear ancient silk robes, have overly slanted eyes, long fingernails and a Fu Manchu.

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Old 05-08-2013, 01:07 AM   #146
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Okay, so we agree here. Except for the part about "being raised by racists." I doubt you know Stan's parents that well to make that kind of conclusion.
I'll comment on this. I didn't know Stan's parents. So rather, raised by a society of racists, "it takes a village..." after all.

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Old 05-08-2013, 01:13 AM   #147
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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To answer this question, no. But I am less interested in Shane Black's method of adapting a character (turning them into a joke and a twist). And more interested in directors who can take the source material and magically transform it into a fantastic adaption that probably outlives the source material itself.

[see: Richard Donner/Terrence Stamp's Zod, Christopher Nolan/Tom Hardy's Bane, etc.]



Personally, while I have a problem with the twist, I'm able to see past it and acknowledge the film as a quality comic book movie. I am also a sucker for (any and all) potential. And excited for the day someone actually does magically turn The Mandarin into a likable, respectful, faithful adaptation. They were so close this time after all!
Sure, but as I noted before it seems like people have trouble adapting Mandarin in other media period. In the 94 cartoon he was some white guy called Arnold Brock who was turned green by the rings and given claw like hands. In Armor Adventures Mandarin was essentially a sympathetic teenage book worm and in the 2007 DTV Iron Man was essentially Sauron from the Lord of the Rings.

It seems like writers both in the comics and other media have trouble adapting Mandarin to modern times so he ends up going all over the place. It doesn't seem like Loki or Magneto has this level radically different adaptions. Its like the writers have more problems using Mandarin in a relevant and consistent manner then they do a lot of other arch nemesis characters at Marvel.

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Old 05-08-2013, 01:22 AM   #148
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lol, being ignorant doesn't mean you're racist. I've met quite a few people when I was in the Army who prior to going to Basic Training had never seen a black person before. They had really no clue about black people other than what was portrayed on TV. I can't say that any of these people were racist or even raised by racist.

When I was stationed in Germany my kids were really young and quite a few times people would oogle over my kids. My wife and I thought it weird and one couple who spoke English told us that they had never seen a black baby before and it was fascinating to them. Did we think them racist? no

Ignorance may lead to stereo-types or even prejudices but racism is a whole 'nother level. Being ignorant just makes you ignorant and ain't nothing wrong with that. Now if you stay that way is a different story.

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Old 05-08-2013, 01:33 AM   #149
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lol, being ignorant doesn't mean you're racist. I've met quite a few people when I was in the Army who prior to going to Basic Training had never seen a black person before. They had really no clue about black people other than what was portrayed on TV. I can't say that any of these people were racist or even raised by racist.

When I was stationed in Germany my kids were really young and quite a few times people would oogle over my kids. My wife and I thought it weird and one couple who spoke English told us that they had never seen a black baby before and it was fascinating to them. Did we think them racist? no

Ignorance may lead to stereo-types or even prejudices but racism is a whole 'nother level. Being ignorant just makes you ignorant and ain't nothing wrong with that. Now if you stay that way is a different story.
Agreed. Mostly. I'll admit most of my definition of what "racism" is stems from a mentor I had in college. Now that makes me sound silly, but hear me out. Basically, like I said previously, racism was described to me as acknowledging that there is a difference between, for instance a black man and a white man. Should we see a difference between a black man and a white man?

So then, a lot of people talk about racial pride, etc. And what you think of that is your personal opinion, but the only difference between people of two different ethnicities is the culture and background they were raised in.

Racism is a human invention (i.e. horses don't acknowledge a difference between themselves based on the color of their coat). If racism had never been "invented" there would be no difference between two humans with different skin color.

I think racial/ethnic ignorance is racism. (That's my opinion and by that logic I understand that I am, myself a racist.)

And what most people consider racism (violence, insults, segregation, and so much more) is something closer to racial hatred.

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Old 05-08-2013, 01:38 AM   #150
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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There are a lot of villains created in that era that were not racial stereotypes.

But isn't a good question to ask why Mandarin doesn't have the same stature as other major villains?
Because Iron Man isn't a major hero. At least he never was before IM1.

As a comic hero, he never was in the same league with Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, Hulk... not even not even in the same league with Thor and Captain America...

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