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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
Hate it! 104 41.27%
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:45 AM   #151
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Agreed. Mostly. I'll admit most of my definition of what "racism" is stems from a mentor I had in college. Now that makes me sound silly, but hear me out. Basically, like I said previously, racism was described to me as acknowledging that there is a difference between, for instance a black man and a white man. Should we see a difference between a black man and a white man?

So then, a lot of people talk about racial pride, etc. And what you think of that is your personal opinion, but the only difference between people of two different ethnicities is the culture and background they were raised in.

Racism is a human invention (i.e. horses don't acknowledge a difference between themselves based on the color of their coat). If racism had never been "invented" there would be no difference between two humans with different skin color.

I think racial/ethnic ignorance is racism. (That's my opinion and by that logic I understand that I am, myself a racist.)

And what most people consider racism (violence, insults, segregation, and so much more) is something closer to racial hatred.
I'm not trying to belittle your definition but what exactly is your definition of sexism then? and yes racism = racial hatred.

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Old 05-08-2013, 01:46 AM   #152
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Racism is a human invention (i.e. horses don't acknowledge a difference between themselves based on the color of their coat). If racism had never been "invented" there would be no difference between two humans with different skin color.
But unfortunately it is a human invention that seems, like violence, sexism and mammonism, typical for humans.

Racism and Ethnocentrism can be found anywhere in the world. In the United Arabian Emirates, Indian immigrants are treated horribiy. In Japan, Korean people are of discriminated against. In Pakistan, peoplle belonging to any religion other than Sunni Islam (like Christians, Hindus, Jews, but also other Muslim groups). In Africa, there are thousands of ethnic conflicts...

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Old 05-08-2013, 01:51 AM   #153
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Because Iron Man isn't a major hero. At least he never was before IM1.

As a comic hero, he never was in the same league with Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, Hulk... not even not even in the same league with Thor and Captain America...
I think its debatable whether Iron Man was on the same league with Thor and Captain America before the movie, Iron Man had a cartoon back in 94, which is something Captain America and Thor didn't have.

I think the difference is a lot of Marvel arch nemesis villains seem to get better and more consistent writing then Mandarin does, who seems to get radically revised every time someone else starts writing him. He was anti technology one point, then he wasn't, Knauf wrote him as a Ra's Al Ghul style well intentioned extremist, Fraction wrote him as Kim Jong Il style madman, both which are very different to how he was written in the Silver age or the 70s or the 80s. Again he seems more like a archetype then a character, because the writers seem to keep changing his personality, likely because they want to get away from his Yellow Peril origins and so all implement their own ideas on how to update him. I still don't see why he wants to take over the world and how he has interesting chemistry with Iron Man.

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Old 05-08-2013, 01:55 AM   #154
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I'm not trying to belittle your definition but what exactly is your definition of sexism then? and yes racism = racial hatred.
By definition, very similar. By approach? Vastly different.

Sexism is acknowledging a difference between two different sexes, societally. The kicker being "societally" because, obviously, there is a biological difference between men and women and transgender (much moreso than between, say, Irish men and Mexican men).

The idea is to treat women and men equally in social/political matters and differently in medical matters, privacy matters, etc. The same can be said to a degree about race as well, as fair skinned people can be more susceptible to skin cancers, or other similar examples of this. But as those matters are private to the individual and their practicing physician, have no bearing in public matters (workforce hiring/firing, military recruitment, civil liberties, etc.)

Woah. We're gettin pretty deep here. :P

EDIT: because in the same vein, sexual hatred also exists.

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Old 05-08-2013, 02:09 AM   #155
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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By definition, very similar. By approach? Vastly different.

Sexism is acknowledging a difference between two different sexes, societally. The kicker being "societally" because, obviously, there is a biological difference between men and women and transgender (much moreso than between, say, Irish men and Mexican men).

The idea is to treat women and men equally in social/political matters and differently in medical matters, privacy matters, etc. The same can be said to a degree about race as well, as fair skinned people can be more susceptible to skin cancers, or other similar examples of this. But as those matters are private to the individual and their practicing physician, have no bearing in public matters (workforce hiring/firing, military recruitment, civil liberties, etc.)

Woah. We're gettin pretty deep here. :P

EDIT: because in the same vein, sexual hatred also exists.
lol, yes we are. I get where you're coming from I just think your definition of racist is off.

Getting back to the reveal of who the Mandarin really was I think I've finally narrowed down why it didn't sit well w/ me. The bait and switch seemed gimmicky yes but it was also set up poorly.

Imagine if the scene where Tony is captured goes like this. Killian reveals that he knew all a long that Tony would deduce his ruse and has now put him in a predicament. The President will be killed/captured on the East coast and Pepper is captured will be killed on the West coast. He'll have to choose which one to save. Giving him a dilemma much like the orginal Superman movie.

How much better would the reveal be that Tony wasn't even in the suit rescuing the passengers of Airforce One and in fact was enroute to Pepper's location?

What we got though was a reveal that kinda wasted the first hour or so of the movie for nothing more than laughs and a cruel April Fools joke. ha ha, yeah ya got me.

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Old 05-08-2013, 02:24 AM   #156
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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lol, yes we are. I get where you're coming from I just think your definition of racist is off.

Getting back to the reveal of who the Mandarin really was I think I've finally narrowed down why it didn't sit well w/ me. The bait and switch seemed gimmicky yes but it was also set up poorly.

Imagine if the scene where Tony is captured goes like this. Killian reveals that he knew all a long that Tony would deduce his ruse and has now put him in a predicament. The President will be killed/captured on the East coast and Pepper is captured will be killed on the West coast. He'll have to choose which one to save. Giving him a dilemma much like the orginal Superman movie.

How much better would the reveal be that Tony wasn't even in the suit rescuing the passengers of Airforce One and in fact was enroute to Pepper's location?

What we got though was a reveal that kinda wasted the first hour or so of the movie for nothing more than laughs and a cruel April Fools joke. ha ha, yeah ya got me.
To each his own.

With the Mandarin I describe it like this and it baffles me to no end:

What if before you saw the movie someone told you how it happened. In perfect detail, "...and then they reveal that this nobody character Killian is the real Mandarin."

O_O Who on earth saw this on paper and thought it was a good idea? In the end the "appeal" is almost exclusively shock and awe. "Okay we are gonna set up Tony's nemesis The Mandarin as the perfect uber-terrorist. The epitome, the archetype of terror if you will. Everyone who sees the commercials will be drawn in by this character. And then we are going to reveal that character doesn't exist and someone far less intimidating and far less memorable was the mastermind the entire time. Ready, action!"

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Old 05-08-2013, 02:33 AM   #157
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

We didn't even get to see what this was all about...



And this...



It's like they didn't think everything completely through when it came to this character.

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Old 05-08-2013, 02:43 AM   #158
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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To each his own.

With the Mandarin I describe it like this and it baffles me to no end:

What if before you saw the movie someone told you how it happened. In perfect detail, "...and then they reveal that this nobody character Killian is the real Mandarin."

O_O Who on earth saw this on paper and thought it was a good idea? In the end the "appeal" is almost exclusively shock and awe. "Okay we are gonna set up Tony's nemesis The Mandarin as the perfect uber-terrorist. The epitome, the archetype of terror if you will. Everyone who sees the commercials will be drawn in by this character. And then we are going to reveal that character doesn't exist and someone far less intimidating and far less memorable was the mastermind the entire time. Ready, action!"
Which is why I don't get the supporters of the changes' arguments. Would I rather to have had an a-typical stereotypical Terrorist? Honestly, yes. It would've been far more interesting. Who cares what his motivation was? He hated America and wanted to kill innocents. Good enough villiany for me.

The Extremis soldiers seemed invincible and I was wondering how Tony was gonna find a way to defeat them because physical damage didn't affect them. Then he kinda blows up the female somehow and she doesn't regenerate. ??? Ok, so is that the answer, just blow them up? But that doesn't seem to work all the time.

Another thing that bugged me was the burn scars on the chicks face. Why can Extremis regrow a limb and heal you but can't heal burn scars?

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Old 05-08-2013, 07:32 AM   #159
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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We didn't even get to see what this was all about...


Shane Black confirmed a couple of days ago what I said it was several months ago: a Captain America shield tattoo with an anarchy symbol on it. It was part of the amalgamation of the (faux) character.

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Old 05-08-2013, 07:54 AM   #160
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Shane Black confirmed a couple of days ago what I said it was several months ago: a Captain America shield tattoo with an anarchy symbol on it. It was part of the amalgamation of the (faux) character.
And it kinda fits with the "amalgamated approximation of America's enemies" angle they were going with him, especially with the subversion of a beloved American hero's icon.

Though I do wish they played it up a bit more.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:53 AM   #161
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I already said this, but Marvel tried to do a more traditional comic-accurate iteration of The Mandarin in IM1 but found that the character wasn't working and removed him without casting him.

SupahT, you do realize that Shane Black's take on The Mandarin is exactly the kind of thing that Joss Whedon likes to do himself, right?

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:00 AM   #162
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Whedon has also already been involved in some part, seeing how he received a special thanks in the IM3 credits. Whedon is most likely perfectly fine with the movie as it is.

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:01 AM   #163
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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This was the worst comic book movie evr! The Mandarin was the most raped marvel character ever WoW!

They Disrespected him and the audience with this Bait and switch experience.Well hopefully Joss Whedon makes changes and has the true Mandarin in Avengers 2 which I think is Dr. Wu. in iron man 2 Tony chest plate was triangle. Joss Whedon said he didn't lke the triangle plate, so he changed it back to the circl. The Triangle plate was a major plot pont in iron man 2, and Joss whedon didn't like it so he changed i back to the circle.

So if Joss Whedon does not like something, he can change it for Avengers 2. i think that is what he is going to do with the Mandarin. Because you just can't let the Mandarin go down like that.
Dr. Wu? seriously? for what logical reason?

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:57 AM   #164
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Whedon has also already been involved in some part, seeing how he received a special thanks in the IM3 credits. Whedon is most likely perfectly fine with the movie as it is.
He's not only fine with it, he was thoroughly impressed with it to the point where he said he'd be nervous about having to follow it.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:02 AM   #165
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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He's not only fine with it, he was thoroughly impressed with it to the point where he said he'd be nervous about having to follow it.
Thanks for the confirmation. I hadn't seen any direct opinions from him as seeing the movie fairly late made me stay away from discussions.

While I thought IM3 was really good I don't have any doubt Whedon can make something even greater than that, and TA, with TA2 though.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:05 AM   #166
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Dr. Wu should be returning for the Jurassic Park film, not Avengers 2.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:13 AM   #167
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Thanks for the confirmation. I hadn't seen any direct opinions from him as seeing the movie fairly late made me stay away from discussions.

While I thought IM3 was really good I don't have any doubt Whedon can make something even greater than that, and TA, with TA2 though.
I've always been impressed with Joss' ability at story telling. Even with some of his less popular work like dollhouse, I found the story telling was very compelling and just when one reveal happens and you think you know everything it goes in another direction.

I watched every single episode of Buffy, and while I like some better than others, I can't think of an episode that I didn't like. I've just always admired his skill as a story teller.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:19 AM   #168
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Joss is an excellent writer and storyteller, even if his style isn't for everyone. Like I said, the Mandarin thing is very much something he would have come up with because it fits very much into the way he structures and tells stories, making the audience believe one thing before delivering something else that cuts against expectations, which is exactly what this Mandarin thing does.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:27 AM   #169
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Disney will never do a true representation of The Mandarin because it will end up getting the film banned in China.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:31 AM   #170
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Disney will never do a true representation of The Mandarin because it will end up getting the film banned in China.
Political correctness sensitivity had very little, if anything, to do with The Mandarin being portrayed the way he is in IM3.

As I've already pointed out twice, a more traditional version of The Mandarin was in the IM1 script but was removed because the character was not working. Marvel signed off on Black's version of the character because it A) made sense and B) worked with the wider ongoing arc of Iron Man's character and his place in the MCU.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:41 AM   #171
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I'm not saying that it necessitated the twist that we got. They had already started changing the character by making him a vague Middle Eastern terrorist type. A true to comics Mandarin never had a chance. It isn't political correctness, it is not being kicked out of a major market.

That that type of character also doesn't fit this more comedy driven franchise is another issue. The way it appears in the final film is more in touch with the tone of the previous films and the Tony Stark character in general.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:46 AM   #172
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I already said this, but Marvel tried to do a more traditional comic-accurate iteration of The Mandarin in IM1 but found that the character wasn't working and removed him without casting him.

SupahT, you do realize that Shane Black's take on The Mandarin is exactly the kind of thing that Joss Whedon likes to do himself, right?
Just to make a clarification it was not a "more traditional comic-accurate" iteration. The mandarin in that film was basically ultimate Mandarin. He was younger than Tony, he was a business tycoon and he was doing business deals with Stark and using Stane as their puppet to manipulate Stark.

There were also no magic power rings.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:48 AM   #173
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Disney will never do a true representation of The Mandarin because it will end up getting the film banned in China.

Again, what is a "true representation" of the Mandarin, a character that has been reinvented in the comics multiple times?

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:53 AM   #174
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Again, what is a "true representation" of the Mandarin, a character that has been reinvented in the comics multiple times?
The traditional Silver Age Mandarin.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:58 AM   #175
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The traditional Silver Age Mandarin.
How is that a "true representation," because it was done first?

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