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Old 05-11-2013, 08:16 PM   #151
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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to me he wasn't thats how i feel.

it may have been killians plan but honestly the character came across as the stereotypical angry geek scientist at the start that vows vengeance, because he was ignored by his idol. hell all that was missing from the scene on the roof was him screaming "i'll get you stark this i swear" or some other usual cliche, and after his change its still seems like the whole thing is just to get back at stark because he blew him off years ago.
Except Killian wasn't after vengeance. In fact, at the start of the movie, he isn't after Stark at all. And, in fact, just the opposite. He comes to Stark Industries to specifically meet with Pepper Potts, since he has personal and business ties to her, to ask her to consider funding Extremis.

You need to watch the movie more carefully. Especially the scenes involving Killian.

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That's not what makes a villain menacing. What makes a villain menacing is his looks, the way he acts, and the way he prevents himself.
You don't think glowing eyes, glowing skin, the ability to breathe fire and hurl massive multi-ton objects, to emerge unscathed from huge explosions, the ability to grow back severed limbs instantly, the ability to command an army of similarly powered soldiers, and having The Leader of the Free World in his back pocket is menacing....? ....Really???

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Old 05-11-2013, 08:26 PM   #152
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

Feige isn't ****ing anything up, I think it's great he's letting writers/directors play around with the characters. The comics are always going to be there (and it's not like they've never done differing iterations of various characters before). People really need to just get over the whole Mandarin thing.

And honestly it was great misdirection, JJ Abrams wishes he could be that good at keeping a mysterious twist (e.g. Star Trek Into Darkness).

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Old 05-11-2013, 09:17 PM   #153
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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People think that if they can't imagine it, then no one else can, therefore it is impossible.
Or in this case because some people are fine with the portrayal of Mandarin they just want to silence the people who think that it's crap.

They try to break down the movie as if you're slow and just didn't understand it and if that doesn't work they'll dismiss you as a lowly fanboy who Hollywood doesn't care about. And that your money and opinion means nothing. Yet if that were the case then why did Feige and IM3's staff go out their way to handle damage control once word got out about this twist?

They're at SD Comic Con faithfully every year showing new footage of the latest project.


Long story short, the Extremis plot and Killian didn't win over some fans who wanted the rings Marvel purposely showed in trailers and posters to do things.

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Old 05-12-2013, 05:04 AM   #154
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Except Killian wasn't after vengeance. In fact, at the start of the movie, he isn't after Stark at all. And, in fact, just the opposite. He comes to Stark Industries to specifically meet with Pepper Potts, since he has personal and business ties to her, to ask her to consider funding Extremis.

You need to watch the movie more carefully. Especially the scenes involving Killian.
]
The opening scene on New Year's Eve has nothing to do with pepper, Killian is after stark. He's there to see him he goes to the roof to show him his work

Yes he knows pepper and has a past with her that is established in her detest of him, but this through out the rest of the movie his motionvation is to get stark back on board with extremis

" a high position on the company has just opened up" not the extract quote but you get the idea

Pepper is a means to an end yes there are personal aspects that he has but they are not the main point to his plot, killian knows that if he has pepper he can use it as an ace on stark. If he gets pepper for himself then its a bonus

I have not insulted anyone or spoke down to anyone so please show me the same courtesy.


Anyway Killian is simply syndrome from the incredibles lol

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Old 05-12-2013, 05:32 AM   #155
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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How is Killian not as menacing as the "fake Mandarin?" You guys keep trying to gloss over the fact that everything Trevor did as "The Mandarin" was all Killians idea, his plan.
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You don't think glowing eyes, glowing skin, the ability to breathe fire and hurl massive multi-ton objects, to emerge unscathed from huge explosions, the ability to grow back severed limbs instantly, the ability to command an army of similarly powered soldiers, and having The Leader of the Free World in his back pocket is menacing....? ....Really???
Anybody can write an overpowered, super smart and schemer villain, not everybody can write an intersting and menacing villain. Otherwise Aizen would be the most interesting villain ever made.

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Old 05-12-2013, 05:52 AM   #156
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

well i'm glad he let shane go to work im3 was the first film since im that felt like it was a film made by the director and not the studio thor and cap were very formulaic and i did'nt fee the vision of their respective directors

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Old 05-12-2013, 07:23 AM   #157
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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The opening scene on New Year's Eve has nothing to do with pepper, Killian is after stark. He's there to see him he goes to the roof to show him his work

Yes he knows pepper and has a past with her that is established in her detest of him, but this through out the rest of the movie his motionvation is to get stark back on board with extremis

" a high position on the company has just opened up" not the extract quote but you get the idea

Pepper is a means to an end yes there are personal aspects that he has but they are not the main point to his plot, killian knows that if he has pepper he can use it as an ace on stark. If he gets pepper for himself then its a bonus

I have not insulted anyone or spoke down to anyone so please show me the same courtesy.


Anyway Killian is simply syndrome from the incredibles lol
I wasn't trying to insult or talk down to you; I just think you missed some plot points, though.

About the start of the movie: sorry, I wasn't talking about the NYE99 scene, I was talking about the modern-day scene when Killian has an appointment with Pepper at Stark Industries. That appointment shows that Killian isn't harboring a grudge against Tony and is, in fact, approaching his company for help (through Pepper, with whom he has a deeper history than with Tony).

Killian's motives change again when Pepper says no, that Stark Industries won't help fund Extremis. Then Happy gets nosy and triggers an accidental "misfire" by an Extremis goon in LA, prompting Killian to trot out the Fake Mandarin to disguise it as a terrorist attack; which, in turn, prompts Tony to declare war on Fake Mandarin; which, in turn, prompts Killian to say in effect: "**** it, I never liked Stark anyway....he wants a war, give him a war." His motive then changes *again* when Maya reveals that Tony might actually know how to fix the Extremis problem, and it's only then that he tries to take Tony alive.

Killian's attitude and motive shifts several times in the movie, but as long as you keep up, it doesn't get confusing. That's why I find IM3 to be a very intelligent script, surprisingly so for this genre; and all the plot holes I keep reading about are actually covered nicely. You just have to look closely, and not miss a beat.

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Old 05-12-2013, 07:52 AM   #158
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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The biggest problem I have with people who dislike the "Mandarin Twist" is their questioning of the motivation by Shane Black and Marvel Studios for why they did it.

To me, it makes perfect sense why Shane Black did it. He disliked the character, and made a CREATIVE DECISION to change that character to fit within the context of a movie he wanted to make. You're welcome to disagree with Shane Black's decision. And absolutely, he took advantage of fans' expectations regarding who or what the Mandarin was.

But to even bring Marvel Studios into this discussion is lame. How clear could it have possibly been that this decision came from Shane Black, and not Marvel saying "Oh, this won't work." If anything, I'm utterly amazed that Marvel didn't force Shane Black to make the Ben Kingsley Mandarin the primary villain, alien rings and all. After all, that's an easy sell, especially to kids. That would make for some very easily digestible action sequences, to cap off an easily digestible, straightforward movie.

But they didn't do that. They trusted the creative talent they chose to deliver what they knew how to deliver. That is the very antithesis of the Sony/Fox mindset, which is to bully their directors into delivering villains, characters, and action sequences that they can easily sell.

So, you think Shane Black was ill-suited to direct this film? Fine. You think the film took the franchise in the wrong direction? Fine. You hate the film version of the Mandarin? Great. All perfectly acceptable positions to have. But to question the motivation of Marvel Studios, and that they actually did this to "play it safe" has no basis in reality whatsoever. Delivering a ham-fisted, alien magic-wielding maniac who wants to take over the world is the very definition of a "safe villain," which is why he was such a common villain for Iron Man in the first place. To actually have that villain be a red herring was anything but safe, and the fact it is so hotly debated is prime evidence of that.
1.) Okay, so why not just run with Ghost in Trevor's place as was intended?

2.) I didn't see an alien magic-wielding maniac in any of the trailers or TV spots; just a BAMF in green robes.

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Old 05-12-2013, 08:05 AM   #159
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Until... Iron Man 3 came.
Did you miss Iron Man 2 and Whiplash?

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Old 05-12-2013, 08:08 AM   #160
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

I think Whiplash was quite different, he was an improvement over the comics version.

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Old 05-12-2013, 08:12 AM   #161
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Yes, but we would never have got that 'improvement' if they weren't allowed to mess with the character.

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Old 05-12-2013, 08:21 AM   #162
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

I thought the Extremis soldiers were very accurate to the comics. Fire breathing and everything.

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Old 05-12-2013, 10:55 AM   #163
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Yes, but we would never have got that 'improvement' if they weren't allowed to mess with the character.
Aside from the fact that Whiplash in the comics is a C-lister even among other Iron Man villains, there's been 2 or 3 of them prior to the film. And film Whiplash is parts Whiplash and Crimson Dynamo. And there have been at least a dozen of them. And neither were ever Iron Man's arch enemy. So it's not really comparable since there has only ever been one Mandarin.

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Old 05-12-2013, 10:58 AM   #164
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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I thought the Extremis soldiers were very accurate to the comics. Fire breathing and everything.
Getting super hot enough to melt metal and occassionally exploding isn't in the extremis comic.


Not that it's a complaint from me since I have no emotional connection to such a latter day comic.

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Old 05-12-2013, 12:07 PM   #165
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

I love how Killian being the Mandarin is dumb and contrived, but a year ago Blake being Robin was enchanting and inspired. The reason film producers don't care that much about comic fans is because a large majority of them are ****ing clueless. Taking stands over the dumbest crap.

Pull the stick out and enjoy the films for what they are. No matter how many tickets you buy or comics you read there's a much larger audience to cater to with a movie. Most of them probably won't even remember the Mandarin in a few months. Studios are going to go for the best impressions they can with these characters, knowing a large percentage of viewers know nothing about them. And that's the fun. We get to see some exciting new developments for decades old characters.

Better than the self inflicted gunshot wounds Marvel Comics is giving itself. New developments and big events....and then back to the status quo. Interesting new direction for a character...and he's back to where he was originally. Nothing really changes in the long run. That's why they're being so influenced by the movies now.

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Old 05-12-2013, 12:15 PM   #166
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

That's probably because it was Nolan's last chapter of his Batman trilogy and Blake being Robin was more of an extra to fans than something central to the plot.

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Old 05-12-2013, 12:54 PM   #167
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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I wasn't trying to insult or talk down to you; I just think you missed some plot points, though.

About the start of the movie: sorry, I wasn't talking about the NYE99 scene, I was talking about the modern-day scene when Killian has an appointment with Pepper at Stark Industries. That appointment shows that Killian isn't harboring a grudge against Tony and is, in fact, approaching his company for help (through Pepper, with whom he has a deeper history than with Tony).

Killian's motives change again when Pepper says no, that Stark Industries won't help fund Extremis. Then Happy gets nosy and triggers an accidental "misfire" by an Extremis goon in LA, prompting Killian to trot out the Fake Mandarin to disguise it as a terrorist attack; which, in turn, prompts Tony to declare war on Fake Mandarin; which, in turn, prompts Killian to say in effect: "**** it, I never liked Stark anyway....he wants a war, give him a war." His motive then changes *again* when Maya reveals that Tony might actually know how to fix the Extremis problem, and it's only then that he tries to take Tony alive.

Killian's attitude and motive shifts several times in the movie, but as long as you keep up, it doesn't get confusing. That's why I find IM3 to be a very intelligent script, surprisingly so for this genre; and all the plot holes I keep reading about are actually covered nicely. You just have to look closely, and not miss a beat.
ok i can see where you are coming from and say that yeah his motivations do change i just feel that they werent that interesting to me enough to grab my attention as a character

sadly killian came across to me at least as just another pissed off business man/inventor only this time with superpowers rather than an armour. and we've already seen that done twice

like i said before i am not an mandarin fanboy that seems to have been popping up, so i'm not one of these "OMG THEY ****ED THE MANDARIN SHANE BLACK MUST DIE" guys, i just feel that the twist didnt work in the way that we (for me at least) had a great interesting build up to what seemed to be the perfect arch rivial to stark to throw it away



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I love how Killian being the Mandarin is dumb and contrived, but a year ago Blake being Robin was enchanting and inspired. The reason film producers don't care that much about comic fans is because a large majority of them are ****ing clueless. Taking stands over the dumbest crap.
.
nah the blake to robin twist was complete ******** as well, as was the whole untrained cop taking over as batman ending

the only difference i've found is you are more likely to get an iron man fan into a civial debate than you would a batman fan who would usually lose they're **** with a white hot rage is you even question an element of a nolan film

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Old 05-12-2013, 02:21 PM   #168
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That's probably because it was Nolan's last chapter of his Batman trilogy and Blake being Robin was more of an extra to fans than something central to the plot.
He takes the last shot though. I'd say he's pretty central to the plot.

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Old 05-12-2013, 02:26 PM   #169
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We don't know that Blake is untrained, and we don't know that Blake immediately jumped into the Batman persona without training of any sort. We don't even know to what extent Blake will use the stuff Bruce gave him. Will he become the Batman? Will he use Batman's tools and play the role of Oracle to Jim Gordon? We just don't know. Any of those is a possibility. At the end of the day, Blake is a fulfillment of what Bruce told Alfred he wanted in BB

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Old 05-12-2013, 02:27 PM   #170
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

The Robin namedrop wasn't anything good either. They're both stupid but they're also different from each other so they can't really be compared.

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Old 05-12-2013, 04:08 PM   #171
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They were both pointless twists that left sour tastes in some peoples' mouths. It just baffles me that one plot that was crammed down audience's mouths was lauded and the other is seen as a total slap in the face. Especially when the TDKR one involved a character who is as iconic as his partner, but was downgraded to forced sequel bait.

The Mandarin on the other hand is one of the lamest villains of one of the worst rogues galleries in superhero comics. And yet people are up in arms when MS has been saying since day one that basically, yeah, this villain is getting a complete facelift. If you're a fan or didn't like the way in which it was done, that's fine. But let's not act like this sort of thing wasn't eaten up when Chris Nolan's name was written on it, or that the Iron Man movies really missed out on exploring deep antagonists.

I'll take Rourke's goofy Whiplash over the comics version any day. As you guys can tell I'm not too torn up about Mandarin either. Iron Man's third acts are reflective of how underdeveloped his supporting cast always has been. Does it leave more to be desired? Sure. But it's making the most of the source material. I'm actually grateful they've deviated a bit in terms of the villains. There wasn't much there to begin with. Same with Iron Man himself really.

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Old 05-12-2013, 04:20 PM   #172
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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They were both pointless twists that left sour tastes in some peoples' mouths. It just baffles me that one plot that was crammed down audience's mouths was lauded and the other is seen as a total slap in the face. Especially when the TDKR one involved a character who is as iconic as his partner, but was downgraded to forced sequel bait.

The Mandarin on the other hand is one of the lamest villains of one of the worst rogues galleries in superhero comics. And yet people are up in arms when MS has been saying since day one that basically, yeah, this villain is getting a complete facelift. If you're a fan or didn't like the way in which it was done, that's fine. But let's not act like this sort of thing wasn't eaten up when Chris Nolan's name was written on it, or that the Iron Man movies really missed out on exploring deep antagonists.

I'll take Rourke's goofy Whiplash over the comics version any day. As you guys can tell I'm not too torn up about Mandarin either. Iron Man's third acts are reflective of how underdeveloped his supporting cast always has been. Does it leave more to be desired? Sure. But it's making the most of the source material. I'm actually grateful they've deviated a bit in terms of the villains. There wasn't much there to begin with. Same with Iron Man himself really.
This!!! Iron Man takes the cake for one of the worst rogue galleries of all heroes. Mandarin is the top of the bottom of the totem pole, which doesn't make him any better.

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Old 05-12-2013, 05:31 PM   #173
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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I love how Killian being the Mandarin is dumb and contrived, but a year ago Blake being Robin was enchanting and inspired. The reason film producers don't care that much about comic fans is because a large majority of them are ****ing clueless. Taking stands over the dumbest crap.

Pull the stick out and enjoy the films for what they are. No matter how many tickets you buy or comics you read there's a much larger audience to cater to with a movie. Most of them probably won't even remember the Mandarin in a few months. Studios are going to go for the best impressions they can with these characters, knowing a large percentage of viewers know nothing about them. And that's the fun. We get to see some exciting new developments for decades old characters.

Better than the self inflicted gunshot wounds Marvel Comics is giving itself. New developments and big events....and then back to the status quo. Interesting new direction for a character...and he's back to where he was originally. Nothing really changes in the long run. That's why they're being so influenced by the movies now.

Blake wasn't Robin.

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Old 05-12-2013, 06:05 PM   #174
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

In what sense? Robin the teenage sidekick who wears reds and greens, no. But a sort of combination of the three males (Dick and Tim in particular) but posing as a cop instead of a kid and fighting along side Batman, Bruce confiding in him the ideals behind Batman, finding out on his own Bruce's identity, and the implication of him succeeding Bruce are all pretty Robin-esque. Was the name reveal not intended to showcase that?

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Old 05-12-2013, 06:31 PM   #175
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

I am sorry but this thread reads like fans being determined that their superhero movies all follow a specific formula.

Variation and subversion is fine. Iron Man 3 maintained the quality of MCU and, IMO, was far superior to half their films like Iron Man 2, The Incredible Hulk, Captain America and Thor.

I am not saying I want Marvel to make an X3 that kills off characters needlessly and makes a mediocre product. But as long as Marvel makes quality films that respect character integrity, please bring on more twists and originality.

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